I don't see any caps in my comments... and I'm not calling you names... so I don't know why you feel like your response to me should require shouting.  Humm... it's more likely you can't address the issue I've raised.

You took the time to respond to my post but you unfortunately didn't address the issue of your claims that witchcraft is synonymous with Satanism.  Anyone who knows anything about witchcraft knows this isn't even remotely true.  Witchcraft is no more Satanism than Christianity is.

It appears you're not interested in conversation either.  It appears you're more interested in smearing other peoples "faith" or religions.

Why don't you crawl down off your "holier than thou" pedestal you've placed yourself on and realize that there are other religions in this world and they aren't all based on Satanism because they don't jive with your view of the world.

Fine.

Witchcraft is NOT in all cases EXACTLY the same as satanism. I'll grant you that denotative definition.

But far as I am concerned, they are apples off the same tree. See the Scriptural refences I gave above.

So, whatever my friend. If "catching" me in this [sarcasm]MASSIVE [/sarcasm] error makes you feel vindicated and the "winner" of our little debate, then good.

I have said EVERYTHING I care to say on the subject to you, and I will leave it a that.

Why would anyone care what the Bible said about witchcraft?  There is no such thing in the real world.

Why do you all fall for this.  "Christians" always attack whatever is popular, KNOWING that all they will do is irritate people. When the backlash comes they can indulge in their persecution complex. The "Christian" is never so happy as when he thinks he is being abused for his faith.

Just ignore them.

""Evil is packaged as a harmless book/movie series"? I don't understand.

                         If they portray "Evil" as "Bad", and something to be fought, is this not good? Or is it the "tool" that you object to. The idea that "magic" is evil, regardless of what it is
                         used for sounds suspiciously like the anti-gunner's argument.

                         I don't buy it." Posted by Fatman


There you go with a cheap shot again. Now you're comparing his statement to "anti-gun". Your attempted correlation is both an insult to our intelligence and an inaccuarcy

I'm sorry if you just don't get it. We are in a grey zone here. While it is easy to say that there is a clear difference between good and evil in the Harry Potter stuff,,, you have to look above (or below) that fact. Then you will see that regardless of how seemingly innocent this is it is still influences of anti-God/anti-christian teachings.

Let me clearly state something here. If you do not claim to be a believer in God or Christ then I see no problem with you reading/watching Harry Potter. You have already chosen the path without God and this is just consistent with it. If, however, you claim to choose God and/or Jesus then I am just disappointed with your apparent lack of comprehension as to what this all means. If this is truly the case then I will pray for you. And not cause I think I'm better than you, just because I think you need the enlightenment.  

VA gunnut -

Funny you should bring that up.

My Bible has the uncanny ability to show me that I am an extremely bad sinner. But for the grace of GOd, the worst sinner.

But the same Bible also tells me I MUST spread the truth of the word of God. I can see why people would think me self-righteous because I quote the Bible, but like I say, the Bible is a mirror that shows me MY sin.





Have you ever run into a heart doctor that smoked?? Would you refuse open heart surgery SIMPLY because of that one "hypocrite?" Or a hundred such hypocrites? How about 10K of htem???

I think not.

Then don't refuse what the Bible says simply because you ran into as many Christian hypocrite. The problem is with the hypocrite, not God's Bible..

Armd-

This same discussion about the defintion of "Persecution" came up last week. So I did a little reasearch.

The Bible has LOTS to say about what comprises persecution for your faith.

Would ya like me to share it?? I can start a new thread if ya like   [;D]

Your point is extremely well made.  The point of the topic was to say Harry Potter condones witchcraft which is Evil as defined by the Bible.  So yes, Garandman's point was that magic is evil regardless of how it is used.  But the argument now is that you are comparing apples and oranges, and you just dont understand, and they will pray for you because you too are on the path of evil for watching/reading Harry Potter.  hehe, its really just amusing.

So am I wrong in remembering that witches see themselves as the bride of Satan (which would be a Satanic opposite of a Nun)?

Where did witches get their reputation for human sacrifice, anyhow?

Did not C.S. Lewis write an essay in which he said that "if witches are as bad as history says they were, then they Should have been burned at the stake."

Haven't we a  knowledgeable witch craft expert here?

Art Bell's wife is a "good" witch, and he reports that she does all kinds of stuff to keep devils in check at his house(thrilling).  

If you think devil-worshipers are fine, send your kids over there to hang out. [smoke]

It is easy and safe to scoff at our ancestors, who conducted witch trials, but We Weren't There, They Were.

"There were no witches."  

Bunk.  England is *still* loaded with them, for example.  Sick of seeing them prate about their glorious satanic heritage on The Discovery Channel.  You guys ever see a world map with the Christian distribution indicated on it?  I have. Europe did not have anywhere near as many Christians as I thought it would.  There are plenty of pagans, though.

-------
Bring back the Holy Roman Emperor.

Witchcraft isn't like Satanism in any case, period.  Satan is the invention of Christianity, which came about long after the earth based Pagan religions, one of which we call witchcraft today.

So Christians such as yourself are claiming witchcraft is the work of Satan.  What's new?  Christians have been doing this for eons... Since the events in Salem and before.  You claim no allegiance to your Christian brethren who burned witches at the stake but you parrot the same ignorance they spewed when justifying their actions.  

Have you ever read anything written by a Pagan or witch that would support your claims?  Reading Christian websites is like asking a KKK member his opinion of blacks.  You're hardly going to get an objective view.  This should be more than obvious to you... unless of course you have an agenda.  Oh that's right... you do.  Sorry for the confusion.

Massive?  You give yourself way too much credit.  I know I'm the winner of our little debate, I certainly don't need any validation from you.  I know I'm the winner given the number of supportive comments I've gotten from other members here and the relative lack of support you've enjoyed.  You tried BS'ing your way out of what you said and failed, period.  That's plainly obvious to everyone.

Such a hateful Christian... you need to get your butt over to Church and beg for forgiveness...

Gosh... God has his work cut out with you.  [:)]

Gosh, more of that incredibly mature "I'm taking my ball and going home" bit.  Laugh... do you stomp your feet, pout or hold your breath when you don't get your way at Church?  Laugh... man, how do you expect people to take you seriously when you act so childish at times?

You're a relatively smart dude... you can do better than the "I'm ignoring you" routine.  I haven't been unduly harsh with you or attempted to virtually beat you up.  I have questioned a couple of your comments and your response has been "I'm giving you the silent treatment".  Why do you even bother posting to web boards if all you're going to do is ignore those with whom you have a disagreement?

that is DEFINITELY a problem.




Actually, those types of people are working too hard. They should just cut to the chase and pick ANY old verse, and twist it to suit their
purpose.



And you would be right.



And I don't wish to pick a fight with you or anyone else.

But I could never excuse myself if i got to heaven and God looked at me and said "You spent ALL that time at AR15.com, and never told them about me??? "

Also, remember that while we are commanded to spread the Word of God, we also know from the Word of God that we can in no way [b]force[/b] someone to faith (an error of the Inquisitions), so ours is simply the job of "sowing the seed", it is the Spirit's work to generate faith.

   My seven year old son likes Harry Potter but he realizes he is fiction. He likes Jesus, too, but believes Jesus is real. Harry Potter should not be a threat to any child's Christian beliefs if the child actually knows about Jesus.
   Magic and Satan are two very different subjects in the Bible. Magic was used for profit and Satan was used for evil.

You have made claims that I made certain statements.

I requested proof.  

You haven't delivered.

END of discussion.

Why would I want to discuss with someone who makes false accusations about me, and then IGNORES my request for documentation???

NEWSFLASH, wgunn-

Its over. let it go. go on with your life. You'll be fine without me. there are other fish in the ocean.

s
I quoted you twice.

You got it twice.

You're in denial.

What's new?

Gosh, at least three other people read the exact same thing I did and questioned you about it... and each and every time you ignored them.  Why don't you just go delete your comments instead of pretending they don't exist?

Oh, that's right... I quoted you several times.  Whoops... there goes that idea.  You're right, it's best to pretend you didn't say it.

Laugh, ok.  Stop responding to me then... that's three times you've lied and God is watching.  Stop telling me you're done with me only to reply yet again.  Let's not mention you're repeated lies about having not said something that myself and several others have seen AND commented on.

Christian = Hypocrite  -- Can one exist without the other?  Inquiring minds want to know!

Wait a minute!  God is Omniscient, All Knowing and All Seeing.  He knows everything that will happen, now and always, right?

Why would he be SURPRISED by anything you did/did not do?

Reminds me of the old question.. "Can God make Anything? Can God do anything?"

When the person says yes, you ask "Can he make a mountain so large that He cannot lift it?"

Then just stand back and watch the person try to  sheepishly explain their answer...

Emily Litella Voice:
"What Is All This Talk about the CO in M*A*S*H?"
Chevy: It is about books that kids actually want to read.
EL:
"Nevermind"

I think you guys are missing a point here that Garandman, myself and others have tried to make.  The portrayal of witchcraft in Harry Potter basically deals with powers that a human being possesses.  Human beings do not possess powers freely by nature alone.  They get their powers from a certain source.  That source of witchcraft power is DEFINITELY not God.  Therefore, witchcraft powers come from Satan.  That is why we say that this is all based in evil and that you should not subject yourself or anyone you care about to it.

Previously, some people have tried to compare Harry Potter to Star Wars or Looney Tunes or any other fictional story.  That is a classic case of comparing apples and oranges.  Withcraft is the possession of evil powers.  The Coyote falling off a cliff a dozen times in the same show does not indicate that he possesses evil powers.  The "Force" in Star Wars is given by a substance (mitachlorians??? can't remember the exact name) that is in the body of those people who are not Earth based humans, but are "different" and live in "a galaxy far, far away".  Harry Potter is about witchcraft practices by a human boy right here on good old mother Earth.

THAT is the difference.  Take heed before it's too late!

BBURN

Garandman,you should know better.
You know that anti-religious fanatics will only act as if your the Taliban now.
How dare you have an opinion! and if you mention God agian the FBI will storm your house.

My Logic professor used the "If God is all powerful, then can He make something so large that he can't lift it?" question as a typical example of

An Illogical question.

Or, in Layman's terms, "sheer nonsence."

Edited, just because I can.

Satanism & witchcraft are not the same thing. To be a satanist one must believe in the existence of the Cristian God and of Heaven. This is, after all, where Satan comes from. you can say that witchcraft is evil or unholy if it floats your boat, but it isn't satanism. It actually predates the concept of the Biblical Satan.

C.S.Lewis wrote an excellent book called "Mere Christanity". cant help but to recomment this book to anybody, christian or not.  [:)]cant wait to see Lord of the Rings

i've met a few "witches" and have never seen a magical spell cast. if there is a danger in Harry Potter it would not be actual sorcerery that could warp their minds, only a delusional self-image of what they can and cant do.

Not all christians are hysterical over such things as AD&D, Magic the gathering, and Harry Potter. particularly the one who know they have grounded their kids well in a belief of God. to worry about the effect of Harry Potter is a sign of insecurity. would not any other religion the could lead a youth to a religion not based on chritianity be just a "dangerous"?

those christians who complain the most are the ones the set the stereotype for all others. the coolest christians i have ever met have been the content and at peace ones. the loud mouths always get the airtime because its controversial. to complain about Harry Potter is not a bad thing for a christian to do. critisism is a good thing. but if any christian try's to ban the book and film then they are NOT acting in a Christ like manner. the Jesus of the Bible never; not once imposed his will on anybody.

I play Dungeons & Dragons and i always will. i heard all about how D&D supposedly teaches Pagan beleifs. as a former student (not a member)of Freemasonry (the craft, the Brotherhood) and researching into anceint religions, i can tell you that D&D does not in any way teach Paganism. D&D only takes mythology from various origins, throws in something new and portrays it in a "comicbook", ficticous form. if you believe it is true, then you have more issues that need to be resolved then satanism.

If satan (Lucis)really does have any power at all, it is the power that you give him. could Harry potter bring a child to Wicca? only if you as a parent let it. you can not shield your child from all the bad in the world. teach them about Jesus, show them the Gospel. if they will not hear the word of God, then they will not hear the word of God. its that simple. The Bible teaches (sorry i cant quote scripture, i havent stepped foot in a church in about two years) that every person who will go to heaven has their name written in the book of life. its called predestination. man does not know it, but God knows all who will answer his call. this is why the Gospel is important to hear, but does not mean that man himself will choose to follow him. that seed can ONLY be planted by God (Holy spirit/Christ) because it is his choice.

a D&D player, a person who will watch Harry Potter, a person who will wait in line to see Lord of the Rings, a person who respects C.S.Lewis, a Borderline agnostic/protestant. lib

No, and every thing I tell you is a lie... wait, Yes, er, wait, No, er...

That's a pretty bold statement to say that witchcraft predates the creation of the earth!... consider that satan in mentioned in Genisis, in the garden.

Secondly, one does [b]not[/b] have to believe in the Christian God of Heaven to believe in satan.  That's like saying I must believe in God to believe in and support the 2nd amendment!

The biggest lie of all that the father of lies would  have you believe is that there is no God of Heaven - or at the least that you could be like the God of Heaven.

Now, as to the subject of this thread, the Bible does say that we (believers - no, followers of the God of Heaven ) are not to practice witchcraft.

As a Christian I do not have a problem with Harry Potter. I have read the first three books and find no longing to be evil and demonic. Nor do I wish to try and practice witchcraft. I also see no reason for spewing fire and brimstone your going to hell for this, either. Going into the books a little it is called "Defense against the Dark Arts" ie... against evil. Kind of like what you are doing learning how and telling others how to protect themselves from said activities. Not "The Dark Arts".

Now, how many on the box see movies with nudity, does not matter how much or how long, how about senseless violence? I personally watch NO TV or movies except for documentaries, cartoons with the kids and some news. Even Disney has crap in it. I don't watch sitcoms or weekly shows because I have not found any that are worth while or on a network that does not advertise smut of some kind.

My neighbor says the same thing about HP that many are saying, "my kid ain't seeing it" yeah, and you are the one who watches sports that show cheerleaders and booze and other "poisons of the mind and body" and other tv shows that are CRAP and yet you have no problem watching it. Ask yourselves, "have you ever looked at a cheerleader and thought, nice body" Does that qualify for the sin thing about lust in the heart? Seems to. Seems normal/natural to me to also. To look that is.

What about those people BC, what happened to them and their souls?

I also do not believe that witch craft and satan are the same or go hand in hand. You may associate acts of one with the other but if pagan rituals were around BC, how can they be one in the same? How can "spells" to protect or help some one, be evil or come from one who is evil?

Normally I stay out of these kinds of threads, but I'll chime in on this one. Witches(their prefer to call themselves Wiccans by the way) like any other religion know a light and dark side(I wont get too Yoda here right now). But they don't worship Satan or God as they are Christian concepts. Do they practice ancient pagan beliefs, yes they do. Do these beliefs precede the spread of Christianity, I think it does. But YMMV.

Is the Harry Potter movie a threat to Christianity, if you think it is dont watch it otherwise lighten up okay there's bigger fish to fry.

Kuiper

Actually, Wicca is a modern neo-pagan outgrowth of the Western Mystery Religions (or Celtic/Druid traditions), and can only be traced back for less than a century. A fellow by the name of Gerald Gardner wrote a book called [i]High Magic's Aid[/i] in 1949 that is generally accepted as the primary basis for the religion. There is even some credible belief that Alistair Crowley wrote some of the rituals described by Gardner; which is not to me a recommendation for its benignity.

That said, I don't consider Wiccans to be evil, just misguided.

There are many other varieties of witchcraft, some of which are even practiced as an adjunct to Christianity (Pennsylvania Dutch magic [i]hexenkunst[/i]and Appalachian Granny magic come to mind). Satanism is called 'witchcraft' when it is in fact an inverse practice of Christianity (inverted Crosses, etc.).

I consider sympathy for witchcraft to be an example of a 'slippery' slope, or as someone mentioned earlier, a 'gateway' to other sins.

In the end, though, it will not be I who judges, but God.

If you actually have any significant worry at all about Harry Potter, pick up the first book and read it. Then smack yourselves five hundred times for being that silly.

If you haven't read the book, you don't really have a fucking clue what you're talking about, now do you?

 The harry potter books are popular for a very simple reason: the central character is eleven years old, and he has what every eleven year old kid wants while simultaneously being someone every eleven year old kid can like and admire. He has fame, fortune,is the center of attention, and has the love of his friends and associates -- yet despite this he's a good, reasonably well-meaning kid who shows bravery, loyalty, kindheartedness, and a willingness to fight to defend the innocent even when the odds seem hopeless. That's why they're popular, that's why they're great books, and that's why they'll be read a hundred years from now.

 That's all. The magic stuff is just trappings, and truth be told the books are no more "pagan" than the Lord of the Rings or Star Wars were. If you let your children watch or read [b]either[/b] of those, but not Harry Potter, I have to wonder how you rationalize it -- and, again, if you do so without even reading one of the Harry Potter books in the first place, well, again, I have to wonder.

LMFAO at all these stupid assed threads about Harry Potter and Christianity. I swear for freedom loving people, most of you on this board spend an awful lot of time bitching about other people enjoying their freedom. By the way.....Harry Potter is EVIL?????? EVIL????? I laugh my ass off at you guys. I've never even read the book, but seems like Stephen King or Clive Barker would rate higher in evil content than whatever this Harry Potter shit is.

hatebreed - well said.  My sentiments exactly.

Is Space-Ghost evil, too?

Space-Ghost is gay. [:D]

...so that's a yes, then?

The evil queer Space-Ghost.

Guys, the reason Harry Potter is drawing so much criticism from Christians is because it is the first time that a story specifically about witchcraft is directed specifically and purposely at kids.

Steven King novels are for adults so that is not a good or fair comparison.  Star Wars is about another race of people in a completely different galaxy who have powers that were explained by a naturally occuring organism hosted in some of their bodies.  Again, not a good comparision.  Harry Potter is about a human boy right here on Earth that possesses witchcraft powers.  Since humans don't possess powers by nature and witchcraft powers do not come from God, then it follows that witchcraft powers come from Satan.

We are not freaking out or throwing a fit over Harry Potter and trying to say that it is the most evil of evils.  We are simply stating that is obviously rooted from evil things and is directed toward our children.  As someone said above, we need to teach our children about God and then they can learn to make proper decisions on their own since we can't hide them from all bad things in the world.

The Holy Spirit of God gives Christian followers a power of discernment.  Christians can "see" the evil in things because God "shows" it to them.  I honestly believe that is why all of the non-believers blow things like this off.  They can't "see" the evil in it like Christians can and so they rationalize it out in a human, worldly manner.

No flame at all intended here.  I'm only telling what I know to try to help someone who may want to learn more about the Lord Jesus Christ.

BBURN

Perhaps [b]you[/b] feel the need to raise [b]your[/b] children as Christians, but [b]we[/b] (the rest of the country) might not.  Your belief that believing in a God is inspirational and good, others might not share the same opinion.  Some folks find such a belief harmful to the proper development of their children.

Granted, you may not have meant to imply that the world would be a better place if everyone shared your belief in God, but that's the way your comment reads.

I was raised a strict Baptist.  I was staunchly religious until I reached the ripe old age of 21 years old.  At that point I stopped listening to the blind faith being force fed to me by my family and decided to do some research and try to take an objective look at things.  I wasn't trying to disprove religion as much as I was trying to validate it.  In my travels I slowly realized the big lie Christianity represents.  I've also witnessed the destructive power religion has... which really made me uneasy.  

I talked with Preachers, fellow church members, and people on the street who were Christians.  Without exception, NONE of them could recount having a conversation with God, Jesus or the Holy Spirit.  Not one of them felt that God had talked to them personally, but they did believe he was there.  That was my experience too.  No matter how many times I wanted to feel his presence, it was NEVER felt.  I can see how you can make yourself believe you've felt it, just like you can see monsters in the dark of you focus hard enough... but it's nothing more than that for the majority of Christians.  The funny thing is that publicly these same people still claimed to have a personal relationship with God.  In essence, they were acting.  So I don't believe God tells you anything, especially what's right or wrong.  I don't look to God for guidance for right and wrong yet I have a firm grasp on both concepts.  I feel bad if I do something wrong and I feel good if I do something right.  That's not God talking to me, that's me being human.

This comment reaches well past the point of being wrong, this is just plain silly.  You think the only way a person can have a moral compass is to be a Christian?  Man, you're in desperate need of a reality check.

What you claim to [b]know[/b] is in fact your [b]opinion[/b].  I know there is no God, at least not the Christian God you're talking about.

No flames intended.

This all sounds familiar...

Remember when the Taliban blew up those 3000 year old Buddha Statues?

Yup, another case of Allah (aka God) telling his followers what to do.  Well, through the mouths of men of course.  It's so below God to just talk to everyone himself... he has to keep that invisible thing going on ya know, it's part of the shtick.

Not to be picky, but the writings that you quote were written 500 years AD, and they have changed over 200 times in the retelling.

Who really knows what a god had to say about it.  You are relaly just quoting what a bunch of monks said god said.

Always Defer to Uncle Robert.

Has the bible defined pornography for you, or has it left that matter up to someone else?

Well, going by what garandman has said here, it would appear Pornography is anything which causes you to have "lust in your heart".  This probably includes Victoria Secrets catalog, the bra advertisements in your local news paper or even MTV.  This can also extend to women who wear short skirts, tight tops, low cut shirts, lots of make-up or have boob jobs.  So, in garandmans world anything that causes "lust in your heart" is potentially against God.  Let's just do as the Taliban and cover those pesky women from head to toe with robes and keep them out of our way.  After all, all they do is cause men to lust and NONE of us want to end up in Hell because we got a hard-on looking at a chick.

I think the Mormon's have the perfect solution to this problem.  The Taliban's approach is too politically incorrect in today's world.  Let's just have multiple wives!  Just marry all the chick that turn your crank and then you can have sex when ever you want and not fear spending your eternal life having flames licking your ass!  See!  If we put our minds to any problem we can find a practical solution!

PS. I know this is ok because God called about 10 minutes ago and approved this post.

not to be picky, but the writings I quote, many of the were written over [size=4] 5,000 [/size=4] years ago. And none are less than 2,000 years old. And haven't changed EVEN ONCE since.

The actual manuscripts still exist. A good many non-Bible believing people can assure you the actual manuscripts exists.

But then, at some level it is STILL a matter of God-given faith.

yeah, it gives a pretty comprehensive defintion.

"Whoever looks on a woman to lust after her has committed adultery with her in his heart already."

-- Jesus Christ

Pics are included. That's a pretty tough standard, eh????

Porneia - sexual desire.

graphos - written / pictorial matter.


Pornography is ANY media designed to produce a sexual desire in its reader / viewer.

So, in essence, i take what the Bible says, throw in a few etymologies, apply a little common sense and come up with a definition that works fer me.

Perfect!  Now we're getting somewhere.  You don't take the Bible literally, you apply "common sense" and "come up with" your own definition that works for you.  Is this definition inspired by God himself?  Probably so... otherwise you're not living by God's law and are therefore in default of your soul.  Satan will gather all property rights under this violation.

It would appear that God's laws are open for interpretation... so as to fit the personal lives of all Christians.  That's good news!  I'm coming back to the church!

.

garandman, garandman, garandman....

Dontcha just LOVE me???? [:D]

I digress.

God Bless Texas