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Posted: 11/14/2001 7:52:05 AM EDT
A friend was telling me his plan in the event he would ever be pulled over for driving while intoxicated. He seems to think this plan is a can't miss approach. I'm not so sure. Here's what he'd do....it's rather simple. Once pulled over, he would simply roll up his windows & lock his doors. He would slide his drivers license and proof of insurance out of the slightest crack in the window and that's it. He claims that the cops can do nothing to forcably remove him from his car without some sort of warrent. By the time the cops actually have what they need to get him out of the car(which would take hours), his blood alcohol level would be within the legal limits, thus avoiding a D.U.I. Can someone, preferably an LEO explain exactly how dumb this is. I'd be happy to pass it along to him.
Link Posted: 11/14/2001 8:20:58 AM EDT
Link Posted: 11/14/2001 8:27:50 AM EDT
If the cop who pulls him over has seen any kind of erratic driving on your buddy's part, the first thing he's going to think when your buddy pulls his stunt is 'DUII'. If he sees any other indicators (you can still see bloodshot, glassy eyes through a window) or smells any alcohol at all when your buddy passes out the license, he's probably going to order him out of the car. When your buddy refuses, the cop's probably going to call for backup and then remove your buddy from the car. No warrant necessary, all he needs is PC. In some jurisdictions the erratic driving coupled with your buddy's actions might well be enough by themselves. He might get lucky and get a rookie cop who doesn't have enough sense to call for more experienced help, but I think Garand Shooter is right- in most places he's just going to get taken out through the wing window.
Link Posted: 11/14/2001 8:38:32 AM EDT
I was thinking about this the other day. If you refuse the sobriety test, which is supposed to be your right, you forfeit your license. Once forfeited, and sobriety test refused, the car will be towed and you can terminate contact with the police. If the degree of your intoxication is such that to an observer (policeman) you appear drunk he can arrest you, but that testimony alone would be the only evidence against you. Any lawyers or legal experts opinions?
Link Posted: 11/14/2001 8:51:17 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/14/2001 9:13:51 AM EDT by AR15fan]
I'm no expert. I dont work traffic and I dont lie in wait outside of bars. But I still manage to stumble into about one drunk driver a week. The drunks I stop are usually bouncing off every parked car or light pole as they drive down the street, or driving the wrong way on a one way road with no headlights. We're talking BAC's of .20 and up. Your friends delaying tactic will only slow things down. I'm assuming there has beem lawful PC for the stop, so there is already a citable offence. It takes about 5 mins to write the cite then he has to sign it. Refusal to sign the citation is a bookable offence and my cite book wont fit through a little crack in the window. So you roll down the window or I break the glass and take you to jail. As for the Blood/Breath/Urine test. We administratively suspend your driver's license for one year for a refusal, and you will still get convicted of drunk driving. I have demonstrated in training and in the field that I can measure a persons BAC accurately by checking for Horizantle Nystagmus, verticle Nystagmus. and Non-convergance. (The eyes dont lie) Edited for clarity.
Link Posted: 11/14/2001 9:02:35 AM EDT
Originally Posted By AR15fan: verticle nystagmus.
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?????
Link Posted: 11/14/2001 9:16:55 AM EDT
think about how a breathalyzer works, think hyperventilation. This works.
Link Posted: 11/14/2001 9:24:43 AM EDT
VGN, HGN: Involuntary twitching of the eye associated with alcohol consumption. (see also Lack of Smooth Pursuit) Translation: take all the breath mints you want. We know you are drunk. In my state, failure to consent to FSTs is a worse offense than DUII. You lose license, get fined, etc... You can go to court argue that there wasn't sufficient PC for stop, but probably won't get far.
Link Posted: 11/14/2001 9:28:51 AM EDT
Here's a few better tactics. If your DUI and in an accident with no injuries and your car is driveable. Exchange information make sure the other party has help on the way and leave before the Cops get there. Don't go home but get off the streets. Call to report the crash within 24 hours. In Ohio you are obligated to exchange information and report a crash within 24 hours. A cite for leaving the scene of an accident with no injuries after exchanging information is much easier to beat than a DUI. If your DUI and in a crash and your car is disabled, run don't walk to the nearest bar and down as many drinks as you can before the Cops get there. Make sure someone at the scene knows where your going and help is on the way for anyone who needs it. If you are alone, just call from the bar and report the crash. If your stopped for a traffic violation and are DUI, refuse any tests. You most likely will be able to plea to reckless operation. Best advice? Don't drink and drive.
Link Posted: 11/14/2001 9:33:30 AM EDT
Nystagmus is the condition of rapid, jerky eye movements. The treatment for children is to wait it out, because it usually goes away after a few years. For adults, you can perform surgery to reposition the muscles to lesson the symptoms. My wife works for social services, and has encountered several children that had this condition. They had trouble losing their place while reading. The easiest work-around is to have them close one eye and/or view the text through a piece of paper with a small cut-out so that they can only see a small section of the line. What does this have to do with a DUI? I'm also interested in "beating" DUI stops. I've never had a drop of alcohol in my life, but I've been arrested twice for DUI. The last time, my van got pretty beat-up, several items in it were not returned to me, and the interior got wet because the driver didn't roll-up my window before leaving it at the impound lot (it still stinks). I'd like to avoid having that happen again. I have a mild case of Parkinson's, and the police seemed to be trained to look for constant hand movements. Well, I just can't help it, especially when I'm bored and sitting at a red light.z
Link Posted: 11/14/2001 9:34:23 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Sukebe: Here's a few better tactics. If your DUI and in a crash and your car is disabled, run don't walk to the nearest bar and down as many drinks as you can before the Cops get there.
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The chug-a-lug defense. "I wasnt drunk when I crashed, I got drunk between the time of the crash and when the cops arrived". This one might actually work. Or you may get arrested for leaving the scene of an accident, drunk in public, and open cointainer violations anyway.
Link Posted: 11/14/2001 9:37:45 AM EDT
Anyone who plans to DUI is a moron.
Link Posted: 11/14/2001 9:37:59 AM EDT
Most DWI stops, the driver is arrested from the moment they are stopped, for the traffic violation at a minimum. Whether a DWI results or not from the subsequent investigation is irrelevant to fact that your buddy is already under arrest (even if the usual course of action is a citation). He can certainly refuse field sobreity tasks, but a well-trained officer should be able to notice the signs of DWI and articulate them based on the driver's behavior. And even if that doesn't work, and the officer can't make a DWI arrest, a suspected drunk can still spend the night in jail for running a stop sign or whatever the initial violation is. This leads to the same net effect: another drunk off the road, even if it does not result in a DWI charge. Cops have tremendous civil liability (not to mention a basic responsibility) to never let a suspected drunk drive off; anything else could cost them their badge and someone else their life. If your buddy refuses to exit the vehicle, he is already under arrest for the traffic violation, and his refusal to submit to that arrest will lead to him being forcibly extracted from the vehicle, and possibly further charges for that (and possibly more severe charges than DWI).
Link Posted: 11/14/2001 9:49:12 AM EDT
Sancho - This could work. But its clear that you are a good, safe driver who has not been arrested for DUII and tried this. Subject is "observed" for 20 minutes prior to blow. If they hyperventilated before blowing, it would count it same as a refusal. BTW, refusal is worse than failure. As always: your mileage may differ, tell it to the judge, etc...
Link Posted: 11/14/2001 10:13:15 AM EDT
I give him about enought time in the car that it takes me to call for cover, and get a sgt over there. With the PC for the stop, and being able to see the bloodshot watery eyes, slurred speech, and any odor from the small crack in the window, I have plenty to bust the window and take him to jail for obstruction. Dumb idea if you ask em.
Link Posted: 11/14/2001 10:45:37 AM EDT
In Texas, one can be arrested for certain "fine-only" type traffic violations, AND be held for 48 hours for these and just about any other type of arrestable violation. Hows that for "Don't mess with Texas." [Unduly harsh in my opinion. But then again, Texas is a very "hard-ass" state.] I agree with the guy who said only idiots plan DWIs. Hell, if you are a gun owner/lover you got enough things working against you in the system without doing self-defeating things like driving around drunk! [soapbox]
Link Posted: 11/14/2001 11:15:01 AM EDT
Originally Posted By 1035: Sancho - This could work. But its clear that you are a good, safe driver who has not been arrested for DUII and tried this.
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uh..something like that. the not getting arrested part anyway.
Link Posted: 11/14/2001 11:30:44 AM EDT
Ask for a trial by jury. It's your only hope.
Link Posted: 11/14/2001 11:44:01 AM EDT
Originally Posted By zoom: Nystagmus is the condition of rapid, jerky eye movements... What does this have to do with a DUI?
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Yes, it is the condition of rapid, jerky eye movement. The muscles that control the movement of your eyes are some of the weakest muscles in your body and thus they are among the first to become effected by alcohol. An intoxicated individual trying to follow an officers pen up and down or side to side will do so with rapid, jerky eye movements because of the effects of the alcohol. Other muscle control may be OK (such as walking a line) but the eyes will still tell the story. As said before, the eyes don't lie.
Link Posted: 11/14/2001 12:02:33 PM EDT
The muscles that control the movement of your eyes are some of the weakest muscles in your body and thus they are among the first to become effected by alcohol.
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They're also among the first to be affected by caffeine, aspirin, nicotine, stress, motion sickness, the flu, eyestrain from looking at the sun, ear infections, etc.. My wife helps kids with this problem, and she just gave me the above list off the top of her head of things they check for. Having them avoid caffeine and aspirin will often help the problem enough so that the kids can read. For some, having their parents drive the kids to school, rather them ride the bus helps (less bumping around). Also, being gentle with the child helps, because stress exacerbates the problem. Being stopped by a LEO is stressful by itself, so how can a condition caused by stress and many other factors be an indicator of blood-alcohol level? Again, I don't drink, and I haven't been around that many people that do, but I'm still curious as to what this has to do w/ a DUI.z
Link Posted: 11/14/2001 12:08:42 PM EDT
Originally Posted By I_am_Sancho: think about how a breathalyzer works, think hyperventilation. This works.
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All us good intoxilzyer operators already know all the games the drunks play. If they wanna play then it's a refusal and your license is suspended for even longer. A good officer who knows the SFST battery and does alot of DWI's knows what little things to look for that seem like nothing but in court can add up one after the other and fill any doubt that the person met the elements of the offense. Nystagmus is the involuntary jerking of the eye. Everybody has natural nystagmus but the vast majority of people it can not be seen with the naked eye. Alcohol in the human body brings out the nystagmus where it can be seen by the naked eye. That's where HGN comes in to play in the SFST battery. Tell your buddy just not to drink and drive and he'll be ok.
Link Posted: 11/14/2001 12:09:38 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Green_Furniture: Ask for a trial by jury. It's your only hope.
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I beat a DUI rap by going to a jury trial. The arresting officer slipped while demonstrating on video how to walk the straight line. Case dissmissed!!!
Link Posted: 11/14/2001 12:11:52 PM EDT
Originally Posted By zoom:
The muscles that control the movement of your eyes are some of the weakest muscles in your body and thus they are among the first to become effected by alcohol.
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They're also among the first to be affected by caffeine, aspirin, nicotine, stress, motion sickness, the flu, eyestrain from looking at the sun, ear infections, etc.. My wife helps kids with this problem, and she just gave me the above list off the top of her head of things they check for. Having them avoid caffeine and aspirin will often help the problem enough so that the kids can read. For some, having their parents drive the kids to school, rather them ride the bus helps (less bumping around). Also, being gentle with the child helps, because stress exacerbates the problem. Being stopped by a LEO is stressful by itself, so how can a condition caused by stress and many other factors be an indicator of blood-alcohol level? Again, I don't drink, and I haven't been around that many people that do, but I'm still curious as to what this has to do w/ a DUI.z
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There are numerous other types of nystagmus but none can be influenced by stress, asprin, caffeine, etc.
Link Posted: 11/14/2001 12:14:40 PM EDT
Link Posted: 11/14/2001 12:15:59 PM EDT
Just a footnote... Nobody was or is planning on getting a D.U.I. The situation is hypothetical, driving drunk is f*ckin' stupid. By the way, any of you ever drive a car after throwing back a few? Thought so.
Link Posted: 11/14/2001 12:16:18 PM EDT
Originally Posted By zoom:
The muscles that control the movement of your eyes are some of the weakest muscles in your body and thus they are among the first to become effected by alcohol.
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They're also among the first to be affected by caffeine, aspirin, nicotine, stress, motion sickness, the flu, eyestrain from looking at the sun, ear infections, etc.. My wife helps kids with this problem, and she just gave me the above list off the top of her head of things they check for. Having them avoid caffeine and aspirin will often help the problem enough so that the kids can read. For some, having their parents drive the kids to school, rather them ride the bus helps (less bumping around). Also, being gentle with the child helps, because stress exacerbates the problem. Being stopped by a LEO is stressful by itself, so how can a condition caused by stress and many other factors be an indicator of blood-alcohol level? Again, I don't drink, and I haven't been around that many people that do, but I'm still curious as to what this has to do w/ a DUI.z
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There are numerous other types of nystagmus but horizontal gaze nystagmus cannot be influenced by stress, asprin, caffeine, etc.
Link Posted: 11/14/2001 12:16:25 PM EDT
Link Posted: 11/14/2001 12:18:07 PM EDT
Originally Posted By M4: By the way, any of you ever drive a car after throwing back a few? Thought so.
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Not since college...I don't drink anymore!
Link Posted: 11/14/2001 12:24:05 PM EDT
Originally Posted By thebeekeeper1:
Originally Posted By neverenuf:
Originally Posted By Green_Furniture: Ask for a trial by jury. It's your only hope.
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I beat a DUI rap by going to a jury trial. The arresting officer slipped while demonstrating on video how to walk the straight line. Case dissmissed!!!
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You must be very proud. I notice you don't say you beat it by being [b]innocent[/b]. Please note my post above.
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No, Not proud just lucky. Taught me a good lesson, a very expensive lesson!
Link Posted: 11/14/2001 12:36:26 PM EDT
Originally Posted By jadams951: There are numerous other types of nystagmus but horizontal gaze nystagmus cannot be influenced by stress, asprin, caffeine, etc.
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But it can be influenced by a lack of sleep. Same symptoms as being drunk. Red eyes, again, lack of sleep. But that's beside the point: Don't ever blow or submit to any sobriety tests. Refusal may get your license suspended longer, but there is no jail time and insurance isn't affected as much. Besides, they always give allowances for driving to work (if you've never been convicted before anyway).
Link Posted: 11/14/2001 12:52:12 PM EDT
I have a foolproof tactic. Don't drive drunk.
Link Posted: 11/14/2001 12:56:40 PM EDT
Link Posted: 11/14/2001 12:58:14 PM EDT
Driving when there is a risk of getting charged with DUI is not the same as driving drunk.
Link Posted: 11/14/2001 1:02:50 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Garmentless: Driving when there is a risk of getting charged with DUI is not the same as driving drunk.
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Tellme your kidding....right? It is that kind of thinking that kills more people in auto accidents than anything else. sgtar15
Link Posted: 11/14/2001 1:09:08 PM EDT
There ain't no way a .08% BAC is drunk.
Link Posted: 11/14/2001 1:16:10 PM EDT
A buddy of mine got stopped for DUI, a week after his conviction he was hired by the Sheriffs office and is now higher ranking than the deputy that arrested him----isn't that funny... He also got open container, concealed weapon, and endangering a child (who wasn't in his kiddy seat)
Link Posted: 11/14/2001 1:19:18 PM EDT
Well, one could use the excuse the TWA captains used when they were busted for drinking less than 12 hours before a flight. "We are accustomed to it" [;)] Someone explain the hyperventalation theory why that would help, I dont understand how that helps. [beer]
Link Posted: 11/14/2001 1:20:20 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Garmentless: There ain't no way a .08% BAC is drunk.
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Debateable..but it is impaired!!! And impaired driving causes accidents!!! sgtar15
Link Posted: 11/14/2001 1:23:06 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/14/2001 1:17:41 PM EDT by gunman0]
I very recently had a DUI. In Maryland .08% is DUI. I was pulled over for speeding, was not driving erratic or anything. He smelled my beer on my breath, followed by arrest, breathalyzer... busted. I'm 130 pounds, so if I go to a restaurant, and have three beers with dinner(fairly common, one while waiting for a table, and two with my meal), I'm illegal. Everyone I know drives regularly while having a DUI BAC. You should have to be driving recklessly, or cause an accident to gt a DUI. The stupid machine test is BS. I'll be out over $5000 when this is all over, luckily my lawyer says I'll probably get PBJ(have a completely clean driving record). Maryland lowered from .10 to .08 less than one month before I was pulled over, and MADD is already trying to push a .05 law in Maryland. Unless you absolutely never drink, then you have legally driven drunk. So don't start that I'd never drink and drive crap.
Link Posted: 11/14/2001 1:32:15 PM EDT
Link Posted: 11/14/2001 1:38:28 PM EDT
jadams951- This is oversimplified, but in short, everyone has a natural jerkiness in the eyes. This jerkiness is affected by the natural things as mentioned, but it is especially aggravated by alcohol and some drugs. The more you drink, the more your eyes twitch as they follow a stimulus. There is also aggravated jerkiness at the far extent of travel (in the corner of the eye)and jerkiness at a point before a 45 degree angle. It's very clear when a person has been drinking, and many officers with experience can tell you within a small degree of error the BAC level of the person before they blow in a machine. It's very accurate. It can't be beaten, and only a small percentage of the population has a severe natural nystagmus. It is not the only test used however, and with other tests that have specific clues to determine impairment the officer can make the arrest decision. For the guy with parkinson's, I have heard of a guy that had it happen to him twice by a not so smart officer, and if he'd had the Nystagmus test to use that may have been avoided.
Link Posted: 11/14/2001 1:48:49 PM EDT
There ain't no way a .08% BAC is drunk.
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Alcohol is a Central Nervous System Depressant that first affects a person's judgement. How many times have you said or heard someone say something you know you/they will regret later after a couple drinks. This also covers risk assessment: "I'm not that drunk! I know I can make it home." Other social inhibitions are reduced as well along with fine muscle coordination. Reaction time is increased as well as the time need to complete two tasks at the same time. These effect begin with a BAC as low as .04! with some people. Everyone is affected by the .08 level. That's why its the national standard now. How's this for fun. Be the designated driver and watch the people who are drinking. It can be entertaining and eye opening if you watch the drink counts.
Link Posted: 11/14/2001 1:53:16 PM EDT
I've spent many a night hanging out of the window at the No Tooth Bar & Grill near where I live, if I ever deserved a DUI it would probably number in the hundreds. I guess I'm lucky I've never got one and for that matter never hurt/killed anyone white lineing it home. I've got a little smarter in the last few years and drink in the garage (triping over the dog going to bed is my only worry), or I drink on the hunting lease. If they pull you over your done thats the only thing I can say.
Link Posted: 11/14/2001 1:55:57 PM EDT
if he'd had the Nystagmus test to use that may have been avoided.
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chwi548, you're right about the 45 degree angle. All three times I've had the "light in the eye" (as two LEO's I work with call it) test, the officers moved the flashlight much past 45 degrees off of center. In fact, it was closer to 90 degrees. I asked two ex-LEO's I work with if that was what they were taught to do, and they said yes. My wife asked the ophthalmologist they work with, to double-check what they were doing in her office, and he said you shouldn't go past 45 degrees off center. He said almost 60% of people will have noticeable eye jerks when they look at an extreme angle. That sounds like a rigged test. I just had one of the ex-LEO's check me, and my eyes are perfectly fine until I hit about (wild guess, we didn't use a protractor) 60 degrees. Well, I guess I learned something in the thread. Next time, I'll know to point-out to the officer that he shouldn't be checking past 45 degrees. That might have saved me the hassle last time. For you guys that suggested hyperventilating before the test, have you ever been in that situation? I have twice. There was no way I could have forced myself to breath deeply without gagging on the BO and smells from the cleaning solutions (ammonia, yuck!). That place stank, and the idea of breathing it in deeply is disgusting.z
Link Posted: 11/14/2001 2:12:53 PM EDT
the BO and smells from the cleaning solutions (ammonia, yuck!).
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I can't believe I almost forgot about the vomit smell. Go ahead and try to hyperventilate around that.z
Link Posted: 11/14/2001 2:54:31 PM EDT
Here's one I have heard from a couple of people. Don't know if its true, or works, but one of the guys said that his lawyer told him that if he was pulled over while DUI to do the following. If you are going to drive while under the influence make sure that you have an unopened beer in the car. If pulled over, As soon as you pull over, turn off vehicle and throw carkeys onto the ground. Lock the door with the windows rolled up. When the officer comes to the window, open the beer in his presence and proceed to pound the entire beer. By doing so, he is supposedly unable to legally say in court when your BAL went over the legal limit. While your were operating the vehicle or, afterwards, when you no longer had the keys to the vehicle in your possession and could not be a DUI. Drunk in public perhaps, but not a DUI.
Link Posted: 11/14/2001 3:26:49 PM EDT
It is sad we need to have this conversation! I know SERIOUS drunks that have NO license, many convictions and still drive. Guys who ARE DANGEROUS! On the other hand .1 is ridiculous and .08 is pure insanity!! The MADD idiots should be lined up and shot! All it has acomplished is contempt for law and loss of respect for cops. Not all police are guilty but many hang around bars near closing trolling for tickets to fill a dumb quota. Many more "trump up" a weaving course or other BS PC in order to see IF someone has had a few. Far too much abuse by the LEOs IMHO. I do not drive drunk but also have zero respect for .08 and MADD. My attorney has advised me to NEVER take ANY tests if I have had any alcohol in last 48 hours. Just politely refuse and submit to LEO orders regarding arrest.
Link Posted: 11/14/2001 3:38:56 PM EDT
Zoom-The HGN test is not rigged..here's why and how it shouldn't casue you to be affected unless you've been drinking. There is a total of 6 clues horizontally, three in each eye. Lack of smooth pursuit (failure to follow the pen smoothly without the jerkiness), jerkiness at the far extent of travel, and jerkiness prior to the 45 degree angle. We are supposed to go past the 45 degree angle. In order to deomonstrate impairment, there HAS to be 4 OR MORE clues. In your circumstance, it would only be two, and not enough to demonstrate alcohol impairment by itself. Plus officers that are trained and have experience with HGN can tell from the those other clues or lack of clues an alcohol level. Where I see a potential problem is when there are lack of HGN clues and you show the other clues officers are trained to look for due to the condition. This leads an officer to wonder about medications or drugs, also DWI reasons. I have seen this where someone on meds should not have been driving as well. He was as bad if not worse than a drunk. I can understand your position though. Would it be worthwhile to talk to your District Attorney and ask him for advice, as he's the one that would try the case in the first place? Notorized Doctor's statement? I don'tknow, but I understand it is a problem. But so is the Drinking and driving, which is why it gets the attention it deserves.
Link Posted: 11/14/2001 3:43:44 PM EDT
jackofalltrades-One beer will not make you .10 or .08, so proving you were intoxicated through expert testimony is no problem. And testimony showing that the driver was the only one in the vehicle, no drivers switched, it was in motion with the def behind the wheel, etc.. will not be tough to still prove OWI, and might even provide the basis for an Obstructing charge (which is a criminal record) for the drinking of the beer that way. Not a good idea from that attorney. I'd like to see him win in my state...
Link Posted: 11/14/2001 3:49:20 PM EDT
Rolling down your window the minimum amount and having your doors locked is always the prudent thing to do during a traffic stop. Every woman in America should follow this rule as well as most of the men. You have no idea if the person that has pulled you over is, in fact, a real police officer. There are plenty of dead or raped individuals that have stopped for what they thought was a police officer pulling them over. Unfortunately, this is becoming more of an issue as more police forces go to "undercover" traffic patrol vehicles. Which in my opinion is pretty dumb. If you see the officers lights, maintain a legal speed, put on your hazards and drive to a well lit and populated area. Preferably with people outside. When there, lock your doors, call 911 and tell them your approximate location, your name, your cars license number, and tell them you have been pulled over. Ask them to verify that the officer has indeed called in about a traffic stop. Then roll down your window the minimum amount needed to pass your license and insurance papers and to receive the citation book to add your signature. If the officer wants to order you out of the car they will need to have a reason.
Link Posted: 11/14/2001 3:59:01 PM EDT
Originally Posted By M4: By the way, any of you ever drive a car after throwing back a few?
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No, I dont. Neither should you.
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