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Posted: 11/13/2001 8:29:32 AM EDT
MSNBC is reporting so is ABC radio,that massive bird denris was found in one the engines...a former NTSB official said this is a "probable" cause of the crash...did'nt they clean out the marshes at JFK?? Anyway..this not confirmed as THE official reason..just speculation right now, but reported. [b][blue]NAKED[/blue][/b]
Link Posted: 11/13/2001 8:58:56 AM EDT
This could be one of the causes of this crash,but not the only one. Even with a worst case scenario bird strike the eng should have stayed on the wing. Something was wrong with the eng or its mounts also. In most every aviation accidents there are a chain of events that leads to the result. In the pictures of the cf6 KB posted in another thread that chain of events was broken before it became a crash. The mechs were running the engine because they did not have the confidence in it that would be required for an airworthiness signature. The engine had 600 hours on it since overhaul. It had been assembled by a GE owned company that ryder truck used to own and before that was called aviall. When aviall was building an engine several years prior they dropped the high presure turbine disk. they should have cut it in half to make sure it was never used. Ryder trucks buys aviall and the disk sets on the shelf .. no one has the balls to put it in an engine. The disk is worth $80k and no one has the balls to destroy it. Along comes GE they buy the engine shop and replace the managers. When one new manager see's the disk on the shelf not being used he makes a poor decision to save money. The engine is returned to usairways with a disk that has a very small unnoticed crack... 600 engine hours later the engine is consuming too much oil, and not running well, The Mechs take it out to a remote area to beat the shi@ out of it. They want to see where the oil is going and how much at hi power settings... the eng KB's This chain was broken so no one got hurt. What I am Trying to say is that a single factor is not going to bring the aircraft down... there will be contributing factors...pat
Link Posted: 11/13/2001 9:05:02 AM EDT
Link Posted: 11/13/2001 9:06:38 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/13/2001 9:00:38 AM EDT by DriftPunch]
Mothra? Yeah, I know that was cold, but I was under the impression that engines could take a bird strike. May not be useable, but wouldn't bring down the whole plane either...
Link Posted: 11/13/2001 9:21:05 AM EDT
That's all well and good, but the tailfin fell off the plane well before it ever lost it's engines. Is it possible that somehow the thrust reversers on one or both of the plane's engines became activated, causing the plane to literally shake apart before crashing? I've heard from a few pilots that they think it's the only possible explanation for the catastrophic failure that yesterday's crash experienced. God Bless Texas
Link Posted: 11/13/2001 9:29:57 AM EDT
Anyone ever had a bird go splat on your car while you're driving? That sort of thing probably happens more often then we think. I'm sure it could very well have happened in this case. But. What are the odds of this plane, this neighborhood, and this timing? I've known stranger things to happen, but I'll tell you, it doesn't add up...and it doesn't have to...to be just as valid or true.
Link Posted: 11/13/2001 10:37:27 AM EDT
The reports I have seen show Foreign Objects in the engine, not Bird parts specifically. The engines were said not to have had a catastrophic failure. Part of the Wing and the Stabilizer appear to have fell off first. Both engines fell from the plane before impact. The cockpit recorder doesn't show any inturders in the cockpit. Everything still points to a devastating event occuring without warning after takeoff.
Link Posted: 11/13/2001 11:36:36 AM EDT
The blades are designed to chew up a bird, even a big pelican. They are delicate, but I can't believe a bird caused such a colossal failure. Like I said in my other thread, I'd like to see an independent investigation because I know what the NTSB is going to say before they've even said it--"ACCIDENT" because anything else would be bad news for the airlines.
Link Posted: 11/13/2001 11:57:31 AM EDT
I've had only one bird strike and it put one hellv'a dent in the leading edge of my wing. All I felt was a big thud and the control snapped out of my hand. Maybe the engine sucked in a terrorist who was clinging to the wing? Ever think about it? Just like in the movies! [;)]
Link Posted: 11/13/2001 2:27:06 PM EDT
A bird down the intake could easily have caused that crash. Any bird down the intake will damage the engine and a big bird will destroy it. A buddy of mine when I was in the USAF flying F16's in Spain took a buzzard down his intake. The entire jet more or less blew up. It was a fireball from the nose to the tail as it pitched up and onto its back. He punched out and was fine but the jet was a smoking hole.So no they are not designed to chew up birds. The fan and turbine blades are spinning at very high RPM's and need to be very well balanced.At a high power setting an engine coming apart can vibrate enough to separate from the wing at the pylon. There have been engines coming apart that caused vibrations so strong the pilots could not see the instrument panel. And this was on a 747. They are designed to come off before they rip the aircraft apart. Once that happens the aircraft is very hard or impossible to control. A commercial aircraft is not stressed to take much in the way of violent manuevering and the other parts that came off prior to impact may have just been ripped off by by the forces put on the aircraft when it went out of control.
Link Posted: 11/13/2001 2:52:15 PM EDT
I was at the Los Angeles Air Show in Northridge a few years back, the USAF had an AWACS plane on display. I asked the guy to they get many birds on their radar displays... etc. He mentioned that birds caused an AWACS to crash and all hands were lost.
Link Posted: 11/13/2001 3:11:25 PM EDT
Link Posted: 11/13/2001 3:13:12 PM EDT
Link Posted: 11/13/2001 3:15:52 PM EDT
birds....yeah right. If it was a bird strike, why didn't the pilot or copilot say something on the radio? Not even a "mayday". I vote for a bomb in the cargo hold. When it went off, everything on the aircraft shut down at once. No radio call, no warning, nothing.
Link Posted: 11/13/2001 3:39:29 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/13/2001 3:38:42 PM EDT by WilliamTell]
The NTSB in a late afternoon news conference said there was no indication of any kind of bird strike. [url]http://www.al.com/breakingnews/index.ssf?/cgi-free/getstory_ssf.cgi?j0210_BC_NY--PlaneCrash&&news&tradecentercrash[/url] edited trying to get link to work.
Link Posted: 11/13/2001 3:53:41 PM EDT
... Swamp gas only. Move along, nothing to see here.
Link Posted: 11/13/2001 4:00:23 PM EDT
The latest line is that the plane just broke apart in mid air. Hmmm....What could cause a plane to fall apart in mid air with no warning?
Link Posted: 11/13/2001 4:25:38 PM EDT
This kinds of reminds me of the press releases about the first Anthrax victim. Must have been from natural causes, coulden't be terrorism, well if it is, it must be domestic. WTF For an aircraft to self destuct on it's own is very rare. We would be talking about a huge coincidence. Then again, that could be exactly what this is. Either way, it's a damn shame.
Link Posted: 11/13/2001 4:52:42 PM EDT
YEA! JUST LIKE SPOONS MAKE ROSIE ODONNELL FAT!
Link Posted: 11/13/2001 5:06:17 PM EDT
Brouhah- jet engines may be tested to see how they react to foriegn objects going down the intake but they are not designed to have anything but air go through there. We go to great lengths to avoid getting FOD in the engines. I'm not saying its impossible to ingest something without damage, its just unlikely. Especially when doing 250-300 kts. Most times when something solid like a bird goes down the intake at high speed, the engine is dust. The fan blades are pretty sturdy, but the compressor blades are not. That doesn't mean they all catasrophically fail either but that certainly is a posibility.
Link Posted: 11/13/2001 5:08:49 PM EDT
NTSB just gave a press conference and said preliminary inspections revealed no bird strikes.
Link Posted: 11/13/2001 5:31:37 PM EDT
What some of you don't understand is the difference between turbine engines. A strait turbojet or low bypass ratio turbofan has very little protection against a birdstrike but has a small intake (thus harder to hit). A high bypass ratio turbofan has two things going for it, first, the centrifical force of something trying to get through the fan is thrown radially outward and thus around the gas producing section and second, the fan is very tough and is turning much slower than the turbine section. Note I am not saying I know what happened but I do know it is not probable that a bird brought it down and a panic now would be devestating in many ways. Planerench out.
Link Posted: 11/13/2001 5:38:02 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/13/2001 5:34:30 PM EDT by BigMac]
I didnt read anything but the title.... My grandmother instructed me to kill every starling I saw when I was a boy. This was her reasoning. That the birds were a pest and traveled in a manner that could cause plane crashes. Course, I was 12 with a high powered pelet gun. The Great White Hunter was born. LOL! We need more pelet guns in the hands of more American boys. It's for every Americans safety! now I'll go read the posts...... jees will i never learn to proof read
Link Posted: 11/13/2001 9:11:55 PM EDT
No birds: [url]http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/ap/20011113/ts/plane_crash.html[/url] They are more interested in why the vertical stabilizer was in Jamaica Bay when everything else landed on the peninsula...
Link Posted: 11/13/2001 10:46:12 PM EDT
Link Posted: 11/13/2001 10:55:58 PM EDT
They said that about usair flt 427 too... and now it is the rudder power pac.. the left eng blew up and cause the aircraft to come apart...pat
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