Of all the people in history that are famous for writings or teachings. IE: Socrates or other Greek's and Roman's where their history is much better documented and easier to "prove" their existence. Why is their no such documentation on Christ other then the Bible or word of mouth stories?


Im not an expert in this, maybe there is an answer but I dont know it.

Even the Jewish historian Josephus (circa 70AD) documented that Jesus lived, preached, and was killed by the Romans.

Roman records indicate that a man named Jesus was crucified by them for acts against the gov't.

I don't have my books in front of me, unfortunately, but do a web search and you'll find what you're looking for.

loonybin

The Gospels in the Bible were written by the  Saints. The Bible to me is just as credible as any other subjective work.

We have more current 'books' concerning Jesus than we have concerning Julius Caesar.

Was Julius Caesar a 'homosexual'? We have no idea!

The Roman historian Suetonius in his classic work [i]The Lives of the Caesars[/i] (from c. 121 AD; first translated in 1606), repeats as true, certain stories and jokes from Caesar's career in the military and thereafter to show that this man was 'the wife of every Roman husband, and the husband of every Roman wife'!

But it is unclear from other sources if that was actually the case.

There is simply no such quandry over the character of Christ! We know Christ in such a way that if something turns up now and is proclaimed as a 'secret' gospel, etc., we can judge whether or not such snippet 'sounds' as if it came from Christ, or not!

What other person from that time period are we so well acquainted with? That we would dare claim to know [b]how[/b] he even thought?

Eric The(ButHistoryShouldn'tCallYouToChrist,HeIsPresentlyWithUsAll!)Hun[>]:)]

You definitely want to research Josephus record re: Christ.

But consider the Jewish culture vs. the Roman and Greek cultures.

The Jewish culture was primarily agararian, with their history being primarily carried from generation to generation orally. God commanded it so in the Law.

Greek and Roman cultures were much more intellectual and formally organized. Hence, their record keeping is better.

This makes sense to me.....

Also, remember that Jesus died, rose again and returned to heaven about 33AD. In 70 AD, the Romans came and obliterated Jerusalem. Any written records would likely have been destroyed at that time.

Thanks for the help....I see what my friend says to this.

WOIM, do an Internet search for "historical Christ" and you will get some fine bibliographies for your quest.  To the above references I would add "Annals" by Tacitus, another Roman writer.  Some of the early Christian authors are also excellent, among them, Tertullian, Justin Martyr and Origen.

the roman authors (tacitus and livy) didnt have any first-hand experience with jesus. they talked about christians (generally dont think much of them) and most simply repeated what they'd heard.

think about it. ALL the accounts were written AT LEAST 30-40 years after jesus was dead.

You are right of course, but I don't follow your point.

MOST ALL historical accounts are written after the protagonists / antagonists are dead. Socrates and Plato included.

Right???

Personally, my opinion is that [b]all[/b] of the Gospels and the New Testament were basically written prior to 70 AD!

I would go into why I believe that, but the response would be too long for this thread.

Suffice it to say this one simple fact - the fall and destruction of the Jewish Temple in Jerusalem is not ONCE referred to in any manner in the New Testament!

Why wouldn't THAT be mentioned and proclaimed [i]ad nauseum[/i]?

Erix The('CauseItWasStillAFutureEvent!)Hun[>]:)]

Not proclaimed, but definitely prophesied - by Jesus.

Amen, Brother G, and Josephus gave authority to this by telling us that the Roman soldiers were under the belief that the Jews had hidden gold between the great stones of the Temple - they methodically overturned 'every stone' in their destruction of the Temple! [>]:)]

You may want to look into the writings on the dead sea scrolls as well. There are some interesting bits of information contained in those. Again like most religious writtings they are subject to being translated by many people with many differing opinions.

[beer]

Ok on another note how much information do you think the Vatican has supressed as the did not fall into their plans....Its funny how this orginization got to pick and choose which scriptures are "true" and which are not.

Not to worry [b]WOIM[/b], the Protestant Revolution has been ongoing for nigh five centuries now, if the Vatican had hidden anything of extreme importance to the Story, it would have been disclosed by now! [>]:)]

Julius Caesar was married twice and had a daughter.  If he was a homosexual, he swung both ways.

What about Jesus?  

[url]http://www.tatchell.freeserve.co.uk/religion/jesus.htm[/url]

I don't beleive Jesus even knew Julius Caesar.

[:D]

Are you guys saying that Jesus was a fag? It actually kinda makes sense since there's so many priests that likes young boys. Kinda makes you wonder. [>:/]

But did Jesus "know" any other men... in the Biblical sense? [}:D]

Socrates was a philosopher. It's needed for him to write about his beliefs.
Herodotus was a historian. It's needed for him to write about what he witness and heard in his time.

I used to wonder this myself. I realized at the time Jesus was busy about his Father's business. It was not his job or his followers to document things.
Others have also commented well. In that time other people's profession was to collect taxes, scribe (document things), politician, fishermen, and others. Jesus was a carpenter by profession, not scribe. Nor was any of his followers scribes. At Jesus's time most people in power (politicians, etc.) hated/feared him. Why would they write about him to give him more popularity/fame?

Look at Alexander the Great. He did not write about his feats, nor his soldiers. They were to busy fighting, trying to survive, and travelling to the next country. It took others to write about him and his feats, or the word of mouth from soldiers that returned home.

As today, the news reporter goes to the front line and document and record things. The common soldier is too busy, too tired, too hungry, and etc.

Post from Renamed -

Ahhh, but that would be [b]consistent[/b] with what Suetonius wrote, now wouldn't it? Besides, you either ___  ___ or you don't. That's from The gospel of Andrew Dice Clay!

Leave Jesus out of any sexual conversations, if you will.

Eric The(What'sHEEverDoToYouThatDeservesThat?)Hun[>]:)]

As a late comer to this thread - I only have a couple of references that also point to Josephus, as well as a few others.

Check out the books "Evidence that Demands a Verdict" and "Evidence that Demands a Verdict II" (sometimes titled "More Evidence that Demoands a Verdict") By Josh McDowell.

He covers a lot of ground, including references to the Dead Sea Scrolls, Josephus, and others.

I'll be glad to do that, but I'd like to point out that I wasn't the one to bring homosexuality into a discussion of the historic record of Jesus.

BTW, [b]jhasz[/b], your signature line is from one of my all-time favorites!

Eric The(AndILikeJoshMacDowell'sStuffToo!)Hun[>]:)]

Post from Renamed -

No, I simply pointed out that while we believe we know all there is to know about Julius Caesar, we don't even know this salient point!

However, if you're offended on behalf of Caesar, accept my most gracious apologies.

Eric The(JustASuggestion,YouKnow,ASimpleSuggestion'IfYouWill')Hun[>]:)]

And what might that be?  (just curious - I changed to it last night while listening to it, and the sequel on MP3 last night)...

I wonder why they don't play it on the radio that much anymore?

Yeah, from most of my library, you'd never know I was raised Luteran...[;)]

I think that apology should be rendered unto Caesar. [:D]

You might check the works of Dr. Paul Maier of Western Michigan University at:  [url]http://www.issuesetc.org/resource/archives/maier3.htm[/url]

He did a video tape series on the history, archaeology, and geography of Jesus that is fascinating.  They even found the "arrest warrant" for Jesus which described him as a "practicer of the magic arts," and required him to be stoned.  The ONLY reason he was crucified on a cross instead of stoned is because Pontius Pilate, the Roman governer, was visiting his palace in Jerusalem at the time of Jesus' arrest.  How unbelievably incredible, especially in light of Psalm 22:16.  The deeper you dig, the more stuff you find!

F&$K ceaser,[smile]
I agree with the Hun I love that song, I hope that little Mexican girl was worth it. The only name I can think of is Marty Robbins, but he didn't sing that. I know I could look it up but that is cheating, [wink] give me a hint.

Behold!

[img]http://www.iskcon.net/sacramento/nrsimha4.jpg[/img]

Nothing a well placed 45-70 won't fix, sir.

Actually you'd be right saying Marty Robbins sang it - the Song is "El Paso" ... the sequel is "El Paso City"

EL PASO
(written and performed by Marty Robbins)
from the 1959 Columbia LP, GUNFIGHTER BALLADS & TRAIL SONGS, CL 1349

Out in the West Texas town of El Paso
I fell in love with a Mexican girl
Nighttime would find me in Rosa's cantina
Music would play and Feleena would whirl

Blacker than night where the eyes of Feleena
Wicked and evil while casting her spell
My love was deep for this Mexican maiden
I was in love, but in vain I could tell

One night a wild young cowboy came in
Wild as the West Texas wind
Dashing and daring, a drink he was sharing
With wicked Feleena, the girl that I loved

So in anger
I challenged his right for the love of this maiden
Down went his hand for the gun that he wore
My challenge was answered in less than a heartbeat
The handsome young stranger lay dead on the floor

Just for a moment I stood there in silence
Shocked by the foul, evil deed I had done
Many thoughts raced through my mind as I stood there
I had but one chance and that was to run

Out through the back door of Rosa's I ran
Out where the horses were tied
I caught a good one, it looked like it could run
Up on its back and away I did ride

Just as fast as
I could from the West Texas town of El Paso
Out to the badlands of New Mexico

Back in El Paso my life would be worthless
Everything's gone in life, nothing is left
It's been so long since I've seen the young maiden
My love is stronger than my fear of death

I saddle up and away I did go
Riding alone in the dark
Maybe tomorrow a bullet will find me
Tonight nothing's worse than this pain in my heart

And at last here
I am on the hill overlooking El Paso
I can see Rosa's cantina below
My love is strong and it pushes me onward
Down off the hill to Feleena I go

Off to my right I see five mounted cowboys
Off to my left are a dozen and more
Shouting and shooting I can't let them catch me
I have to make it to Rosa's back door

Something is dreadfully wrong for I feel
A deep burning pain in my side
Though I am trying to stay in the saddle
I'm getting weary, unable to ride

But my love for
Feleena is strong, and I rise where I've fallen
Though I am weary I can't stop to rest
I see the white puff of smoke from the rifle
I feel the bullet go deep in my chest

From out of nowhere Feleena has found me
Kissing my cheek as she kneels by my side
Cradled by two loving arms that I'll die for
One little kiss and Feleena, goodbye

Eric The(HeAlsoWroteAFollow-UpSongCalled'Feleena',WhichWentNowhere)Hun[>]:)]

Man there is tons more!

Letters from Mary and Peter that have been found.

Many things from trips out of the holyland.

You must keep in mind,there was not always a Bible.
The New Testament is a combination of writings and documents about Jesus by many people,then they where put togther to make the bible.

So if everthing about Einstein was put in to one book could somebody then say they can't believe he lived with out more proof?

That would be cheap and ignorant,and at risk of being flamed most of the arguments against Christans and Jesus are both cheap and ignorant.

I did not know that... Thanks Eric The(Mad Researcher)Hun[>]:)]

That's what we need 'round here is a cowboy smiley

Thanks Eric

What if a man in shining garments appeared tomorrow hovering in the air above a great city and declared to all that he was sent to us by God; and that as a credential of his claim he would perform any miracle that was asked of him?  And suppose that he was asked to make the sun do figure eights in the sky for precisely twenty six minutes, beginning at noon on the following day.  And supposing he accomplished that.  Would we believe him?  Well, I think that for a while all would believe, all those who saw what he had done.  But after a week or so, I fear only those of [b]good will[/b] would still believe; all the others would be talking of autosuggestion, mass hysteria, mass hypnosis, coincidence, unknown forces and the like.  It is not what we see in the sky that helps; it is what is in the heart: a right hope, a good will.

From the Ninth Configuration by Wm. Peter Blatty.

He goes on to suggest that it is better to have faith from an inner conviction than from the undeniable senses which, if ignored would be damning to the soul.

That's an interesting question.  Although someone could demonstrate superhuman powers, it isn't possible to prove omnipotence.  

How could you know that the messenger was from God and not from Satan, "the great deceiver"?

Quite right.

A point actually made in Scripture. In fact, Revelation promises just such a "deceiver."

In the beggining did not the monks handwrite the bible for distribution, due to no such device as a printing press? Now also was it not the monks who brought the world beer? Is it not possible they wrote what they wanted us to read to further their own power?  

[beer]

Ya well a well aimd 45-70 would stop that non-since post hast [:D] (just trying to lighten up the thread)

For that  matter was Jesus a homosexual?  Afterall he did spend an inordinate amount of time hanging around with a bunch of guys!!

Jesus is a modern myth. That's why...

I don't know about Jesus, but god hates fags...
[url]http://www.godhatesfags.com/main/index.html[/url]

They have some interesting mp3s there.  Click on "A Message To The Nation In The Wake Of The World Trade Center/Pentagon Tragedy - The Rod Of God Hath Smitten Fag America!"

[img]http://www.godhatesfags.com/images/Signs_SLC_2001.jpg[/img]

[img]http://www.godhatesfags.com/images/This_Way_To_Hell_SLC_2001.jpg[/img]

[img]http://www.godhatesfags.com/images/Park5_Memorial_Day_2001.jpg[/img]

And you want us to believe that these people are representative of Christans?


cheap and ignorant[rolleyes]

I'd pump a couple of mags of .223 into him and if he survives, I'd be at least impressed. I still wouldn't believe he's the "GOD."

Christians do not hate fags?  I've always thought that they condemned the queer?!