Warning

 

Close

Confirm Action

Are you sure you wish to do this?

Confirm Cancel
Member Login
Site Notices
Posted: 11/10/2001 11:14:31 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/10/2001 11:08:44 PM EDT by BusMaster007]
Sometimes a guy just has to ask... I really don't know for sure if the LDA is "second-strike" capable on a dud first strike to the primer. If it doesn't go BANG, what do you do? Pull the trigger again, or cycle the slide to eject the round and reload a fresh round from the magazine? For that matter, how 'bout the GLOCK? Same thing. Thanks for the education. [:E] [;)] I know my BERETTA pisols have this capability, but a discussion with another operator at the base made me doubt whatever I thought I knew about the LDA and GLOCK. P.S. I posted on both of the respective Handgun Forums for answers, and figured the General Discussion Forum would get the most responses ASAP. I hate to be ignorant...
Link Posted: 11/10/2001 11:25:42 PM EDT
I don't know about the LDA, but Glocks have no second strike capability. If it goes click instead of bang, you tap it, rack it, and assess it.
Link Posted: 11/10/2001 11:31:07 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/10/2001 11:25:01 PM EDT by SIX]
The big thing in my mind is practice doing [b]something[/b] - pull trigger again, and if that doesnt work T/R/B. Or simply T/R/B. I carry both HK and Glock. I only practice T/R/B. One method - works for both, no wasted moves. Do what you like, but all should practice something such that it is automatic. IMHO
Link Posted: 11/10/2001 11:39:58 PM EDT
If the B in T/R/B is Bang, then it's the same thing. The malfunction is assessed by trying to fire again.
Link Posted: 11/10/2001 11:40:37 PM EDT
Thanks. That's what I was looking for. I read about a bank robbery video that showed the Security Guard having a misfire and his reaction was to pull the trigger again and again. The basis for the article was training, and the conclusion was that the human brain will first verify that the malfunction was not operator induced by repeating the action of pulling the trigger. The article stated that even highly trained operators have difficulty in the T/R/B drill when under extreme duress. I cannot remember the article's origin or the handgun the Guard used, but, the topic came up in a discussion today, so it was fresh in my mind. I'm happy with my Beretta platform. My brain can handle it. [:D]
Link Posted: 11/11/2001 1:14:09 AM EDT
Link Posted: 11/11/2001 1:36:03 AM EDT
Well if the natural reaction is to verify the failure wouldn't a Glock be an advantage?? The trigger will be in the "rear" position, the operator should know that the slide must be racked. I also want to know what a "well trained operator is". Many training consists of classroom and shooting at known targets at known distances. The stress level is also lower because the targets don't shoot back. Training 6 years ago, even if state of the art, and no practice doesn't make you well trained. If everytime you go to the range you practice immediate action drills you may be "trained and practiced". If you practice to double tap a dud round you will probably tap it 6 times under stress. Immediate action drills must be so ingrained that you do them almost unconsiously. Also remember you need to do the T/R/A from behind cover iff possible. Then again maybe revolvers do have certain advantages.........
Link Posted: 11/11/2001 3:04:57 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/11/2001 8:58:21 AM EDT by raf]
Link Posted: 11/11/2001 4:21:09 AM EDT
I don't think any less of the Glock design because of a as called lack of "second strike" capability. This is gunrag horseshit as far as I'm concerned. Back in the mid 1990's I was shooting alot of IPSC limited class. In the quest for a super light trigger pull, I had a match gun that would go click instead of bang (light primer hit)sometimes. In IPSC, you clear your jams and keep shooting. Rack the slide and move on.
Link Posted: 11/11/2001 8:22:03 AM EDT
Uh oh, you insulted the Glocksters.
Link Posted: 11/11/2001 8:43:44 AM EDT
I think second strike isn't useful in combat or competition situations. But, DON'T practice T/R/B when firing on a line at a range!!!! If you have a hangfire, you should allow the round time to cook off incase the primer is just being slow. On the range, second strike guns give you something to do while you wait 30 seconds(keep pulling the trigger[:D]). In time competitive situations, or life threatening situations, I'd always T/R/B. In a competition or dangerous situation, the person next to you won't mind if a little brass from a round going off on the ground cuts them. But at the range, the guy sighting in his deer rifle might be upset if he has a live round go off at his feet.
Link Posted: 11/11/2001 9:13:50 AM EDT
No, the LDA does not have a 'second-strike' capability- the slide must cycle before you can hit the primer again. Gunman, I understand why you gave the advice you did, but think about this- in order for a malfunction clearance drill to be ingrained to the point where you will actually do it under stress, you have to do it consistently in all of your training. If you practice letting your gun sit in your hand for 30 seconds, you are confusing the part of your brain that will decide what to do in a gunfight. If the gun goes 'click' and you do anything but an instant malfunction drill, you aren't preparing yourself for a fight. The chances of a dud round exploding after you extract it are slim, and if the other folks on the range are wearing eye protection as they should, the only injury they'll suffer is some very minor cuts to exposed skin. In short, you really can't have one set of procedures for malfunctions on a range line and another for the 'real world'. You will fight as you train.
Link Posted: 11/11/2001 9:27:14 AM EDT
I don't see the range as anything like a real life situation. I'm in the anti-gunner state of Maryland[whacko], so I can't have a round loaded and chambered, I can't even have a mag loaded. So when I show up at the range, I have to load the mag, rack the slide, and fire. Completely unrealistic. Also, only one of the ranges in the area allows rapid fire(the more expensive indoor range). So most of the time, I'm doing the 1 round every 2 seconds deal. Shooting at a non-moving piece of paper at a known distance. If I was at a training facility like Thunder Ranch, I'd agree with you. But all the ranges around here really let me do is practice my aim. Not allowed to draw from a holster at any of the ranges. Any theoretical training I do is at home with snap caps[:(].
Link Posted: 11/11/2001 10:28:55 AM EDT
Originally Posted By OLY-M4gery: Well if the natural reaction is to verify the failure wouldn't a Glock be an advantage?? The trigger will be in the "rear" position, the operator should know that the slide must be racked. I also want to know what a "well trained operator is". Many training consists of classroom and shooting at known targets at known distances. The stress level is also lower because the targets don't shoot back. Training 6 years ago, even if state of the art, and no practice doesn't make you well trained. If everytime you go to the range you practice immediate action drills you may be "trained and practiced". If you practice to double tap a dud round you will probably tap it 6 times under stress. Immediate action drills must be so ingrained that you do them almost unconsiously. Also remember you need to do the T/R/A from behind cover iff possible. Then again maybe revolvers do have certain advantages.........
View Quote
re the "highly trained", I believe the reference was to LEO/Military unit operators. Civilians rarely have the opportunity to train as the above mentioned individuals. The civilian also, (DON'T TAKE THIS WRONG, PEOPLE), doesn't have the need to train to that extent. Yet, the reaction to a "click" will be the same. That is why I was asking about this. It's fascinating to me that in both cases, the reaction is the same. The individual must have repeated the motion something on the order of 3,000+ times to have it down as muscle memory. Something like that. Even then, the mind overrides the muscle and 'verifies' that the trigger was pulled, hence, the difficulty. This TOPIC wasn't a slam on brand preferences, it was to find the correct answer and you guys always come through! Thanks. Now I've got even more stuff to discuss with my friend at work. It helped a lot to put it up here.
Link Posted: 11/11/2001 10:38:27 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Troy: Still, you fight like you train. I made some dummy rounds (bullet and brass, no primer or powder) and occasionally insert them randomly into a magazine. Believe me, it's a complete shock at first when the gun goes CLICK instead of BANG! -Troy
View Quote
Good advice Troy. It still amazes me when you see a shooter in a match have a misfire and they stop to stare at their gun. DO SOMETHING!!! You are only going to be able to use those skills that you have practiced until they become second nature. IMHO the second strike capabability is nothing but a waste of time that will get you killed; TRB and get back into the fight.
Link Posted: 11/11/2001 12:37:33 PM EDT
"Highly trained" refers to very few people. Probably an equal percentage of military, LEO, and civilian shooters. And it's those few that take the time to practice, both actual physical practice and mental "what if" that will do well with whatever system they are using, if they need to use it in an emergency. I would suggest a simple straight foward response to a failure to fire. Get behind cover T/R/A. This will clear most problems, and the ones it won't are major problems anyway. [bounce]
Link Posted: 11/11/2001 6:58:55 PM EDT
A non-issue in my book. Why would you do anything but Tap, Rack, and Re-assess to get the offending round outta there? If you're target shooting pistols and don't care about defensive shooting you'll probably bitch about the pistol and end up buying another one anyways, so what?
Top Top