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Posted: 11/8/2001 10:49:06 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/8/2001 11:07:53 AM EDT by fight4yourrights]
I'm sitting at a light today when a minivan blows through the red and I see the red light camera snap it's picture. "Hmm, another one bites the dust. That'll be $75", I think Well, think again. I catch up with the van as it slows to enter an onramp and notice the FOP license plates. "Oh, get out of jail free card", I think. Why do I presume the owner of the LEO (private) vehicle won't get a ticket? Because they don't. My brother inlaw is an LEO in Maryland and has admitted to me that he has ran these stoplight cameras a few times and never gets a ticket in the mail. So, is this right? No parking tickets is one perk you can argue that cops are entitled to, but how about blowing through red lights? I thought the cameras were for safety! And don't try and tell me he was on duty, or late for roll call, since it appears the wife was driving the van (no uniform, middle of the day). The cameras don't register WHO is driving the car, the tickets are civil infractions based on the owner of the car. BTW - [b][size=3]I'm not implying that the police ASKED for this perk.[/size=3][/b]
Link Posted: 11/8/2001 11:06:55 AM EDT
I don't run red lights, and we don't have those cameras around here, so I can't say it's a perk I've ever seen exercised.
Link Posted: 11/8/2001 11:11:44 AM EDT
Link Posted: 11/8/2001 11:13:46 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/8/2001 11:07:34 AM EDT by fight4yourrights]
Originally Posted By tcsd1236: I don't run red lights, and we don't have those cameras around here, so I can't say it's a perk I've ever seen exercised.
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We're installing them ALL over the place here. BTW - [b][size=3]I'm not implying that the police ASKED for this perk.[/size=3][/b] I would wager that the company running the system chose not to ticket police and politico's to ensure support of the system. (bad idea for the cops, since we won't need as many) Also, these systems can be used to issue speeding tickets, and I believe DC has implemented this already.
Link Posted: 11/8/2001 11:40:58 AM EDT
We are getting the red lights here where I live, they are suppose to be installing them in the very near future. I do not think that it is right for the LEOs to be given special privlidges in these type of circumstances. I do not think that the woman driving the van intentionally ran that light. I know that someof them speed at times and get slapped on the wrist for it, but i don't see this as harmful as running a red light eventhough it is wrong. It saddens me to say that we just lost a brother in blue yesterday at 3pm Central time in a traffic accident, which the fault has not been determined yet, but I think that will wake a lot of people up and maybe they will be more cautious on the roads and be more safety conscious. I think that I got out of hand a little bit and started venting, but my final opinion is that, NO, it not right for LEOs to have these perks. This is a tuff one to answer. Yes LEOs should obey the traffic laws like everyone else, but what cop is going to write another cop up for speeding when he may need that cop to cut him some slack for doing the same thing. Whatever [>:/]
Link Posted: 11/8/2001 11:59:01 AM EDT
This phenomenon is known as..."Professional courtesy" I have witnessed this first hand on 2 seperate occasions. Both times I was a passenger in the vehicle being driven by a friend who is a local leo, the other is a corrections officer (prison guard) and we were on the way out of town to go shooting. Both were stopped for speeding and neither knew the leo who stopped us. When asked for their drivers license, they handed the leo their wallet which had their badge on the opposite side from the licence. In both cases, the leo immidiately handed the wallet back, and started a friendly conversation with my friend. After several minutes, he said...well, have fun shooting, and stay safe, and off we went. I asked both of my friends if this was normal, and they both said yes, and that this was known as "proffesional courtesy" What a racket, free donuts and coffee and no tickets !!!
Link Posted: 11/8/2001 1:15:38 PM EDT
Nope, it ain't right. However, based on my experience while I was living in Maryland, there's no way in hell a cop would get a ticket in that instance. There is a definite double standard in that state. On the west coast, most jurisdictions would cite the person regardless (Portland and Seattle being two notable exceptions that I can think of). Even being late for roll call isn't an excuse to run the red, any more than being late for work is an excuse for a non-LEO. I've had to violate some traffic laws while enroute to emergency SWAT callouts, but running red lights isn't ever one of them- the possibility of harm to the community outweighs the need to get to the team room fast. In MD, it's common practice for officers to take 'gifts' from local business owners at Christmas, to get free meals while on duty, and to badge their way into the movies. Off-duty security work IN UNIFORM is commonly accepted. It's crap like this that pisses people off and turns folks against the cops. And where I work, handing your badge to another officer that pulled you over off duty will make it more likely that you'll get: 1. a ticket and 2. a call to your chief that will get you 3. suspended. However, most places aren't like that, and professional courtesy is common. It's a sticky issue.
Link Posted: 11/8/2001 1:22:20 PM EDT
Nope, it ain't right. However, based on my experience while I was living in Maryland, there's no way in hell a cop would get a ticket in that instance. There is a definite double standard in that state. On the west coast, most jurisdictions would cite the person regardless (Portland and Seattle being two notable exceptions that I can think of). Even being late for roll call isn't an excuse to run the red, any more than being late for work is an excuse for a non-LEO. I've had to violate some traffic laws while enroute to emergency SWAT callouts, but running red lights isn't ever one of them- the possibility of harm to the community outweighs the need to get to the team room fast. In MD, it's common practice for officers to take 'gifts' from local business owners at Christmas, to get free meals while on duty, and to badge their way into the movies. Off-duty security work IN UNIFORM is commonly accepted. It's crap like this that pisses people off and turns folks against the cops. And where I work, handing your badge to another officer that pulled you over off duty will make it more likely that you'll get: 1. a ticket and 2. a call to your chief that will get you 3. suspended. However, most places aren't like that, and professional courtesy is common. It's a sticky issue. BTW, I hated living in MD- fucking communist state. Too close to the heart of darkness inside the Beltway. On a lighter note, I was at the Baltimore PD headquarters one day when a guy walked through the metal detector and buzzed. The crusty old desk sergeant called him over and started chewing him out. It was late fall, and the guy was dressed like an average Joe in jeans and a leather jacket. The sarge says "you've got a gun under your jacket, don't you?" Joe sheepishly nods his head. "Let me see it" says the sarge. Joe opens his jacket to show his 4" .38 on his belt. Sarge says "you don't have a CCW, do you?" Joe shakes his head (at that time, and probably still, MD didn't give out CCW's to normal people). Sarge says "Get the hell out of my station before I see that". The PD is in a really shitty part of town, and many normal folks carry illegally to avoid getting robbed. That's what this guy looked like to me, and obviously to the Sgt. So even on the notoriously anti-gun east coast, not all cops want to disarm the peoples!
Link Posted: 11/8/2001 5:07:38 PM EDT
If you saw what I saw as a cop..... I once had a guy DEMAND professional courtesy reference a traffic ticket (reckless driving, 6 points, $425 fine). I looked at him, smiled, and said 'I'm always courteous to professionals. You aren't, so I'm not.' You wouldn't believe how difficult life got around the SD after that. Yeah, after a few more failures to look the other way when I should have, I quit. Anyone hiring?
Link Posted: 11/8/2001 5:12:00 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Charmedlyfe: Anyone hiring?
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We are, but your certification is no good up here.
Link Posted: 11/8/2001 6:27:14 PM EDT
a couple of traffic cops i used to know in CA would ticket you anyway if anyone tried that leo get out of ticket free crap on them
Link Posted: 11/8/2001 6:58:40 PM EDT
Don't forget about the other perks.. Drive through any stop sign. Park anywhere without paying. Parking tickets dissapear. Almost never get a DWI, OUI or whatever you call it. Can carry a gun anywhere. Enforce any "law" you make up. Enforce the Law based on how you feel that day. Speed all the time, on or off duty, any state. Stop and harass people that you just "don't like the look of" And I'm sure there is more. BIHSOP
Link Posted: 11/8/2001 7:06:36 PM EDT
It doesn't happen this way in Madison, WI. (Or maybe I should say "as often.") Sure, I'm certain there are those occasions where it does happen, but I also know of certain instances where it DOES NOT. In fact I know of a few recent instances where it DID NOT. Much to the detriment of the LEO's, ADA's, judges that it happened to. I would never rely on it to get me out of trouble around here. And I think that's the way it's suppose to be.
Link Posted: 11/8/2001 7:24:27 PM EDT
Another issue are the FOP plates. Kinda makes the occupants of the van targets to someone with a grudge against a cop or the family of one. I've been asked for professional courtesy and gave it to them. But it was also something I had made up my mind to warn them about prior to my approaching. Only one time did I change my mind, and the off duty officer didn't tell me he was an officer. I decided through our talking as my contact that I could get the behavior I wanted by warning him. After I did that he told me his profession. I believe we should all be fairly, and I will never flash my badge to get out of a ticket. That's how I act. One thing for LEOs and people to think about is why is it being extended? Could it be the things that they have to put up with from people, administrations and courts in the first place that makes them want to stick together a little bit? Something I've seen is the only ones that will protect you a lot of times are your own.
Link Posted: 11/8/2001 7:40:03 PM EDT
Link Posted: 11/8/2001 9:43:43 PM EDT
Originally Posted By BISHOP: Don't forget about the other perks.. "Drive through any stop sign." Only with full lights and siren going, and then only after stopping to check all 4 ways. "Park anywhere without paying." If we are on official business, sure. The county isn't going to pay my parking garage tab "Parking tickets disappear." I haven't been able to make any of the parking tickets I've received on my POV disappear. "Almost never get a DWI, OUI or whatever you call it." No comment. "Can carry a gun anywhere." A fringe benefit of the job which most officers don't take advantage of. Few officers are "gunnies" in the sense that many of you are. They see the gun as more of an annoying tool they are only too happy to leave in the locker at the end of their shift. "Enforce any "law" you make up." Now, just how do we do that? How does one enforce an made-up law? I'm too busy enforcing the ones actually on the books now...... "Enforce the Law based on how you feel that day." Hardly. Do we use officer discretion on stops? Sure . I let a third of all cars I stop go with just a warning, based on what I hear from the driver. Perhaps you would like me to just ticket everyone and say the heck with it. "Speed all the time, on or off duty, any state." Have I had a lead foot? Sure. Having kids really slowed me down. Have I gotten out of tickets? Sure. But like I said, I let plenty of regular Joes and Janes off too. Consider it another fringe benefit. "Stop and harass people that you just "don't like the look of" Like it or not, an officer who works the same beat for any length of time develops a sense for what is normal on his/her beat. We'll notice stuff out of place a lot quicker than the average citizen. Call it a hunch, a gut feeling...whatever..... it's a part of good police work.
Link Posted: 11/8/2001 9:58:51 PM EDT
tcsd1236, dont waste your breath. There are members of this board that will bash and trash cops every chance they get, even if the cop was 100% right. Cops cant do anything right in their eyes. They just sit around and think of reasons to talk shit about cops, nothing better to do with their lives, I guess.....Just ignore them ....hopefully they will get bored and move on. and BTW, I have to pay for every parking ticket I get on my personal vehicle, usually get 2 or 3 a year. Life goes on. I dont whine about it like the little bitches.....
Link Posted: 11/8/2001 10:16:46 PM EDT
Yeaah, I know...but some part of me likes debating with them. I don't expect any converts, though.
Link Posted: 11/8/2001 10:26:58 PM EDT
Nahh its ok police are better people than us. We mere civies should be glad that they and their families are not held to the same standards that we common folk are.[-!-!-]
Link Posted: 11/9/2001 6:02:31 AM EDT
Tell you guys what, dial 212-RECRUIT and join the NYPD (actually join ANY police/sheriff/corrections dept.) then tell me what kind of perks you actually get. You know what they say, If you can't beat 'em, join 'em!!!
Link Posted: 11/9/2001 6:14:33 AM EDT
I have gotten out of tickets before I was a COP because I am courteous and speak with a civil tongue. I never ask a COP "why are you harassing me, go find a real criminal like a drug dealer or murder or something" If in the course of a traffic stop an officer is righting me a ticket and then discovers I am LEO and starts to rip it up. I wont let him its called integrity I did something wrong I'll pay for it. but I guess I am just a COP so I MUST BE "Racist, power hungry, gun grabbing bastard that thinks all the lowly surfs are beneath me."
Link Posted: 11/9/2001 7:51:09 AM EDT
Yeah, damned cops, think there shit don't stink. *They are way over paid.[>:/] *Given way too much respect.[spank] *Government pays all there bills.[(:)] *They break the sound barrier everytime they drive.[sleep] *THEY don't have to eat there vegetables.[:o)] *They can walk on water.[shock] *The sun rises and sets upon there request.[8D] *They never get hurt or sick.[BD] *They become moderators at will.[+]:D] *Get six month vacation every seven months.[bounce] I could go on and on but why bother, unbelievable.[X] [argue][argue][argue][argue][argue][argue][ar­gue]
Link Posted: 11/9/2001 8:09:02 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/9/2001 8:04:30 AM EDT by Avalon01]
Originally Posted By palmer: *They are way over paid.[>:/]
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BWHAHAHAHAHA!!! Cops are overpaid? There is an old saying" You get what you pay for." Ever wonder why public school sucks so much? Take a look at what teachers are paid. If I went out and hired a full time computer tech for my department that person would make more than a 5th or 6th year teacher. Would you want to be in a class of 30 screaming, vomiting, Ritalin doped kids for shitty pay? Now apply that to a police officer. Starting pay in my area is around $27,000. Not a whole heck of a lot when all most every person on the job does NOT want to see you. Offer better money, and amazingly you attract better candidates for the job. Av.
Link Posted: 11/9/2001 8:53:28 AM EDT
Originally Posted By palmer: Yeah, damned cops, think there shit don't stink. *They are way over paid.[>:/] *Given way too much respect.[spank] *Government pays all there bills.[(:)] *They break the sound barrier everytime they drive.[sleep] *THEY don't have to eat there vegetables.[:o)] *They can walk on water.[shock] *The sun rises and sets upon there request.[8D] *They never get hurt or sick.[BD] *They become moderators at will.[+]:D] *Get six month vacation every seven months.[bounce] I could go on and on but why bother, unbelievable.[X] [argue][argue][argue][argue][argue][argue][ar­gue]
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LOL BTW, where does the word "COP" come from? Does it stand for anything?
Link Posted: 11/9/2001 9:05:10 AM EDT
Link Posted: 11/9/2001 9:08:35 AM EDT
In the past few months my Sgt. received a parking ticket on his marked patrol vehicle...had to pay it...per department policy. A fellow deputy had a minor fender bender is his marked patrol car and was cited and it going to traffic school. A few others have had red light camera cites in their POVs and had to pay. This whole "professional courtesy" thing is not totally an urban legend, however, in areas with truly professional law enforcement if you screw up (even in a patrol vehicle) you will get the ticket. I will admit that I stopped an FBI agent for speeding and let him go recently, however, on that same day I stopped several other cars (I was running radar) and issued verbal warnings to drivers going faster than he was. I was in a minor incident last year while going code and did not get a ticket as the law says if you are following policy you are allowed to speed etc., but only in those cases.
Link Posted: 11/9/2001 9:09:01 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Avalon01:
Originally Posted By palmer: *They are way over paid.[>:/]
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BWHAHAHAHAHA!!! Cops are overpaid? There is an old saying" You get what you pay for." Ever wonder why public school sucks so much? Take a look at what teachers are paid. If I went out and hired a full time computer tech for my department that person would make more than a 5th or 6th year teacher. Would you want to be in a class of 30 screaming, vomiting, Ritalin doped kids for shitty pay? Now apply that to a police officer. Starting pay in my area is around $27,000. Not a whole heck of a lot when all most every person on the job does NOT want to see you. Offer better money, and amazingly you attract better candidates for the job. Av.
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Avalon01..........It's called sarcasm.
Link Posted: 11/9/2001 9:16:57 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/9/2001 12:31:07 PM EDT by palmer]
[b]C[/b]onstable [b]O[/b]n [b]P[/b]atrol. OR [b]C[/b]onstable [b]O[/b]f [b]P[/b]olice. I believe it originated in England.
Link Posted: 11/9/2001 9:17:53 AM EDT
F4YR, You're leaping to a very huge conclusion. Then I would expect that from you. Prejudices and all. By the way...Overpaid? Look at what the California Highway Patrol pays: [url]http://www.chp.ca.gov/recruiting/html/osalary.html[/url]
Link Posted: 11/9/2001 9:40:16 AM EDT
Originally Posted By palmer: "*They are way over paid.[>:/]" Surely you jest. While there are agencies paying in the 40's and 50's, the national average is still somewhere in the mid 20's. That is the AVERAGE. An agency South of me pays so little to its full-timers that a few years ago they qualified for food stamps. YOu don't join this work hoping to get rich. "*Given way too much respect.[spank]" Where? "*Government pays all there bills.[(:)]" I am provided with uniforms, basic equipment and a car. Most of my training beyond the basic school I have paid for out of my own pocket, from a savings account I send part of every check to. Some officers wont do that; they expect the agency to pay or else, and since most agencies WONT pay, they don't get that training. I feel its the responsibility of the officer to seek out training and pay for it themselves, if they have to. "*They break the sound barrier everytime they drive.[sleep]" Hardly. The only calls I go to with the noise and lights going are : crimes in progress, alarms and 911 calls(most of which are false, but we have to treat them as real until we know otherwise). "*THEY don't have to eat there vegetables.[:o)]" My wife would agree with you on that one. Broccoli...yuck.... "*They can walk on water.[shock]" I must've missed that portion of my police training. "*The sun rises and sets upon there request.[8D]" Only if I submit a request to the administration for something. Then the sun sets...and rises..and sets...and rises......and still I wait.... "*They never get hurt or sick.[BD]" That is so untrue it's absurd. Obviously you've never been to a police funeral , or seen the stats for LOD police injuries. "*They become moderators at will.[+]:D]" We are paid to moderate disputes. That is our JOB. No appologies for that one! "*Get six month vacation every seven months.[bounce]" Yeah, right. We are not allowed to take any of the major holidays off ...Christmas, Thanksgiving, New Years ...etc...because they need additional shift coverage. We work shift hours for years, with many agencies still rotating through each of the three shifts monthly (my agency doesn't, but I feel for those that do). I have about 10 weeks of vacation time on the books , partially because I can't get time off when I need it. My last "vacation" was in 1993. "I could go on and on but why bother, unbelievable.[X]" I agree; you are unbelievable.
Link Posted: 11/9/2001 9:53:34 AM EDT
Link Posted: 11/9/2001 10:03:24 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/9/2001 9:56:34 AM EDT by Avalon01]
Originally Posted By palmer: Avalon01..........It's called sarcasm.
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I know, I know.... Got up on my soapbox for a second there.... Wont happen again. [:D][stick] Av.
Link Posted: 11/9/2001 11:44:01 AM EDT
BTW, where does the word "COP" come from? Does it stand for anything?
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In the 19th century, NYPD officers had badges made of copper, which led to them being referred to as "coppers." This got abbreviated in later usage to "cop." At least, that's what I heard.
Link Posted: 11/9/2001 11:45:54 AM EDT
COP word comes from the British. .. .Constable of Police LOL BTW, where does the word "COP" come from? Does it stand for anything?[/quote]
Link Posted: 11/9/2001 12:03:06 PM EDT
This is a tough one, we get notified often that our guys are speeding on the way to work. The memo says tickets will be given if it does not stop. It is a consideration since we all might not go home at the end of shift. also we do back each other up. There are thosue that abuse it, I was President of our FOP lodge and got calls that so and so was speeding and when asked he was an ass. I tell them to just issue the ticket next time as he is an ass here, I have also seen too many of us get away with DUI, that is bad because instead of getting help, it takes a real serious accident to get attention. There is leeway in tickets, I have a friend that is a priest, the protestant cops wave him on, not so for the catholics......
Link Posted: 11/9/2001 12:08:15 PM EDT
Yes "professional courtesy" is real. Doctors treat each other for free. Lawyers represent each other for free. Cops dont write cops tickets. If a cop does ticket another cop it usually reulsts in an inter agency fued that would rival the Hatfirelds and McCoys. For awhile the California Highway Patrol and LAPD were pulling over each others patrol cars and ticketing on duty cops becuase somebody had cited an off duty officer. Any agency that cites LASO deputies will find themselves locked in a sallyport at the jail. ooops, forgot you were in there.
Link Posted: 11/9/2001 12:32:39 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Kaimeara: BTW, where does the word "COP" come from? Does it stand for anything?
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It's an acronym. Stands for Consumer Of Pastry...
Link Posted: 11/9/2001 12:34:37 PM EDT
Originally Posted By AR15fan: For awhile the California Highway Patrol and LAPD were pulling over each others patrol cars and ticketing on duty cops becuase somebody had cited an off duty officer. Any agency that cites LASO deputies will find themselves locked in a sallyport at the jail. ooops, forgot you were in there.
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When they pulled them over, knowing that the driver was carrying, did they make them take off their gun and throw it in the back seat or check the serial numbers to make sure it wasn't stolen???
Link Posted: 11/9/2001 3:24:09 PM EDT
Link Posted: 11/9/2001 3:47:30 PM EDT
my friend's mom is either INS or customs on the buffalo area border with canada. she and teh car in front of her both got pulled over for going 90 on the way to allegheny state park for a family camping trip, speed limit was either 55 or 65, not sure exactly where it happened and what year, NY has only had 65 since 1995 or 1996 anyway, the cop came to her first, just happened to see her gov't ID as she was getting her license and the cop told her she could go, but to wait until the car in front had their ticket and had left so that the civilian wouldn't know. I don't think she asked to get let off but it's still pretty cheesey, and she brags about it. I heard the story from the mom, so it was first hand
Link Posted: 11/9/2001 3:52:16 PM EDT
I have another cop perk story, and it's a perk I fully support. I have another friend, who used to work at a convience store late at night, often closed. They'd give the cops free coffee, and the cops would stay around while they locked up. I support this, for one thing the cops didn't ask for it, and it was really just them doing their job to deter crime
Link Posted: 11/9/2001 4:07:16 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/9/2001 4:05:25 PM EDT by Hunduh]
Natez got it right, has to do with the old badges being made out of copper........cop for short. And Palmer, Im surprised at you too....wasting your breath like that.....I guess even after you explained that you were being sarcastic (it was painfully obvious to me) some people still dont get it..... Just tell these fools what they want to hear, that we are all fat, donut eating, corrupt evil men, who joined the police force so we could drive fast and go through lights. As a matter of fact I became a cop because I was abused by the other kids in school, and now I can hide behind my badge and be a "tough guy" and theres nothing they can do about it because Im the man......I also kick in peoples doors for no reason and take their guns away. There you have it, my admission of guilt. And heres the kicker, even after I write that I am being sarcastic, there is still going to be some jackass cop hater who is going to run with this!!!
Link Posted: 11/9/2001 4:25:41 PM EDT
Who the hell told you lawyers represent each other for free? In the same firm, sure. Any old guy in the county? Hell no.
Link Posted: 11/9/2001 4:59:04 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Happyshooter: Who the hell told you lawyers represent each other for free? In the same firm, sure. Any old guy in the county? Hell no.
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And this is confirmed! My old neighbor once new a guy who was neighbors with the another guys brothers sister in-laws co-worker from the southern mid west, who was a lawyer that represented another lawyer who didn't know that lawyer from another state who did the representing for nothing! [>:/] And there was this one time at band camp.............................[:D]
Link Posted: 11/9/2001 7:15:06 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/9/2001 7:46:09 PM EDT by fight4yourrights]
Originally Posted By Dave_G: F4YR, You're leaping to a very huge conclusion. Then I would expect that from you. Prejudices and all. By the way...Overpaid? Look at what the California Highway Patrol pays: [url]http://www.chp.ca.gov/recruiting/html/osalary.html[/url]
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You know Dave, I'm beginning to think you don't like me. The next thing I know, you'll probably be calling me a Nazi. Oh wait, you already did that. Thanks for the link buddy. $71,000 for a CA cop who only needs a GED for the job. Damn, that's pretty good. I can't figure out what they are complaining about based on that. [url]http://www.chp.ca.gov/recruiting/html/oqualifications.html[/url]
[b]Education[/b]: High school diploma, [b]GED[/b], or California High School Proficiency Examination.
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Link Posted: 11/9/2001 9:39:09 PM EDT
71,000???? And they dont put up with half the shit that we have to.....damn, is there no justice???
Link Posted: 11/9/2001 10:38:17 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Happyshooter: Who the hell told you lawyers represent each other for free? In the same firm, sure. Any old guy in the county? Hell no.
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try to pay a lawyer to sue another lawyer for "malpractice"...........
Link Posted: 11/10/2001 5:07:06 PM EDT
Now that we have 'tort reform' in this state try suing anyone for malpractice, lawyer or not.
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