Fred would love you, I totally respect more the guys who can shoot out of the box guns with military ammo in the field.
Shooting tech on the bench proves nothing.

One of the reasons I shoot it to better myself for hunting and self defense. Fine learn to shoot at the bench, but also learn to shoot in the real world.

Next time use some
practical targets
with no visible aiming
point.

It is too late in the political day for shooters to be at odds like this.  I can't believe how divided all the different factions of shooters are.

After a DCM match, I scoffed at some guys practicing with their compensated(pistol), "race-guns" shooting rapidfire at small targets.  "Lets see them do that with stock 1911's."  The shooter next to me looked at me like he had just discovered I was Schumer.  Took a while to 'splain to him that I wasn't against race-guns; I just wanted to see those amazing shooting feats done with ordinary, out of the box pistols.  Sheesh.

you have a rich fantasy life. i used to think like you until i went out and shot a high power match. i've qualified in the marines, army and navy and served in combat. i really learned how to shoot after i started high power. as a master i can say any expert or master could take your rifle, your ammo and meet or better you. there is a very good article on snipercountry.com on why snipers should shoot high power.  

then take your stock rifle and go shoot master. it will be a rewarding experience. also good practice for "real" life. that is why the marines shoot kd range at black spots on white paper. it works. gadgets to make our "stock" rifles shoot better? never heard of it.

While it's great a 70+ y.o shooter is still on the firing line,the attitude has to go.  A little funin' and friendly competition is great but put downs are not. He gives all hipower shooters a bad name. Thankfully he's the minority but he's the one people will remember meeeting.

I went through close to the same thing at a local range here. I was shooting my Rossi 92 in .44mag at the 100 yard line just trying some diffarent loads to see what I could do with it. Well I held a 3" group with one load at 6 oclock and then a 2.75 " at 3 oclock with the next load, the ceise fire was called and I walked down and changed target's and put 10 clays on the bank about 6" apart apice. When I got back to the line I had an older gentalman, looked at my target and almost giggele. He showed his shotgroup with a tricked out Remingtom M700. Had a great group in the 10 ring. Less than an inch easy. I said nice as I uncased the FAL fed it a mag dropped the bipod and busted all 10 clays in under 10 seconds. I then tossed him both my sniper coin and my master gunner coin. He handed them back and walked back to his lane. I will admit, some of that was luck, but I was a bit pissed. Just before I pulled the trigger on the first Clay I heard my daughter say "aut-oh". I think this kind of stuff happens way too much.  

SFC(ret) Rew E. Williams

Oh yea,

Bla, bla, bla, I this and I that.

Big deal, I made my own Light Saber and became a Jedi Knight.  You are an elitist dick.  How did you do at Camp Perry Sgt. Rock?  

P.s. Capitalize your I next time.

I too have the utmost respect for those who can and do shoot MIL-SURP rifles/ammo and can do good doing it.  

That guy you dealt with sounds like some of the snobs that look down their noses at me when I show up at our local high power match with an M-1 garand.  

You know, the ones who think the only gun worth having is a tricked out AR-15 with all the gimmicks, bells and whistles that runs $3K.  

Ammo. does make a difference as well as sights. I have shot Russian Guns (AK, SKS) and American Guns (AR-15). I shot the Russian Guns at 100 Yards with Match Grade AMERICAN Ammunition. I was hitting exactly where I was aiming (.5" - 1" Groups) I then switched to RUSSIAN surplus ammunition and was hitting the general area on the target (1.5" - 2" Groups.) I since altered the front sight for better visibility. This hasn't helped much though. I can say outright (as I have done this) I can hit a Human sized target at 200 Yards with an out of the box SKS with no modifications and RUSSIAN surplus ammunition.

I have fired AR-15s at 25 Yards (Indoor Range) and hit dime sized circles on the target. I have grouped shots within previous holes. Now 25 Yards is pretty damned close so I'll let you know how it does at 50, 100, and 200 Yards when I get my own AR-15 (Locked in the deal for a parts kit today.)

My 9mm Carbine shot better groups with Winchester ammunition (The only ammo. I have ever fed it. 9mm Winchester FMJ and 10-9mm Whinchester Black Talons. I'm saving the rest of my Talons.) than any Russian gun I have ever shot with RUSSIAN surplus ammunition. The grouping is almost equal when you use match grade ammo. in the SKS.

HR I would agree that guy came off as arrogant. But you did the world of firearms owners no good either. Better you should have just said "nice shooting" and let it go. I'm no Master, just "expert". There are people that shoot better than me and ones that shoot worse. People that [i]think[/i] they shoot better than me, and people who think they are not as good a shot as me. To the one who are better or think they're better I give them a nod, and for the others I give them encouragement and offer to help them improve if I'm able. I shoot HP with a "tricked out" rifle in Service Rifle class and do IMO, ok. But at a local range's DCM matches there are mostly old guys shooting DCM/CMP issue Garands. When I go there I leave the jacket, hand loads and tricked out AR at home and take a GI issue weapon with 1/7 skinny barrel, nylon sling, mil spec trigger (they do suck) and ball ammo. Mostly because I DO NOT want to have an unfair advantage. Heck, at one point they were thinking of asking me to not shoot sighters. I still have a lot of fun shooting the match and BSing with a bunch of good old boys. In 1-1/2 years of shooting there I have always taken high score. But where I shoot HP I am almost always in the bottom 20 percent. So don't take offense at some old guy because he thinks he is a better shooter than you. No matter what weapon you are shooting there will always be someone better, and someone worse. Besides, what would your reaction have been if he had taken you up on your offer and cleaned the target better than you?

You see this is way I go way the hell out of my way to shoot standing up as much as I can.
I may not be a master but if I ever need to use my AR on somebody I don't need to stop and check the wind and sight in anything i jusy shoot.

I can put 30 rounds on a bust at 200 yards every time and thats all you need.

 Not all people who shoot the tricked out bolt guns with all the gadgets and doodads are dicky like the fellow that you encountered HR.
 I shoot a Remington 700 that has sights on it that cost as much as some of these pre ban AR's that you see for sale. the reason that I shoot that rifle in that configuration is because I want to be competitive in the discipline(Palma Rifle)I simply can not shoot at a competitive level with anything less.
 ANY ONE who can take an issue battle rifle and consistently hit the black on a regulation target at 100 or 200 yards is a rifleman in my opinion, regardless of what type of weapon it is. Dead is dead after all.
 I would not presume to rib someone about their target unless we were well acquainted, or it was a light natured jest that was understood from the outset. The type of attitude that you experienced has jaundiced your view of shooters who use that type of equipment, and you may miss out on a rewarding experience by not wanting anything to do with a rifle of that type.
 I would be glad as hell if you could pick up my rig and beat me on X count, I would try like hell to beat you with your CETME.(Those rifles will run by the way, don't think that they won't or you will lose some cash)

 Keep em in the black

 Chuck

I am not a master either (an expert nra class) I think the guy was arrogant maybe just screwing with you.either way we all do need to be on the same page. and competitive shooting shouldnt be bragging rights. Just as was pointed out early in the thread different disciplines use different guns and targets but all are challenging. I could never hope to hold my own in a combat course nor would i expect a practical shooter to shoot the dcm course. what really maters is that you are having fun

Just remember, no matter how bad they are . . .

. . . it could only be worse if you were at a trap range. [:p]

 By and large, trapshooters are the pinnacle of elitist snobs.
 "How dare you approach within a two mile radius of my Perrazzi with that lowly browning superposed. harrumph harrumph."
 Everyone has their thing , their thing is just plain silly though.

 Chuck

Ever deal wiht the international small bore shooters? talk about snobs...

 Ahhhhh, I plain forgot the Walther and Anschutzites. I never thought they were snobby as much as just silly looking in them wierd colored get ups they wear.
 Probably about as silly as strapping yourself up in a hardback coat with two sweatshirts in 80 degree heat eh??[;)]

 Chuck

Hey, guys, guess what?
I've got stuff I've never sighted in!  It's just waiting to be done.
With the ones I've worked with, I hit the targets from the bench.  I even get some pretty decent groups.
Real world SHTF/"Tactical"/Match shooting? Who knows?  Maybe I can't shoot for shit!
The best part?  I'm still having FUN.

My greatest fear in my love of firearms is becoming one of the jaded shooters.
 God, I dread the thought!  Some of these guys have more accessories on their bodies and rifles than a J.C. Whitney catalog has between its pages!
And, they just don't appear to be having one damn bit of fun at all.
Sad.

I, on the other hand, have a LOT of fun and will endeavor to do so as my skill increases.  When I sense the fun is waning, I'll stop the "learning curve".

Every "discipline" or "hobby" has the Jaded Ones.
Hot Rods to Flower Shows to Golf Clubs.  YUK.
You know what it is?  They don't have the FIRE anymore.  Arrogance is really ignorance.  They want others to think they know it all.  They just don't realize what they've lost is the FIRE.  
The Jaded Ones mistake your FIRE for ignorance.
Blah-blah-blah-blahZAY! [:D]

As a rule I have found the dcm shooters to be not snobish but definitaly gear junkies. Just look at some of the shi@# in your cart! In mine I have 3 different types of mags, 2 gloves, 2 sets of glasses 2 sight black tools.....pat

 Two different OBI's,stock sticky,two pairs of glasses with four different colored lenses,off hand cartridge box,score book,two ink pens, one pencil....................

 Who keeps track though[:)]

 chuck

Even though i look like a walking yard sale going to the line I have never turned down any help, tried hard to never belittle another shooter and always tried to help if asked...pat

I have a theory, perhaps a stupid theory, that some of those fancy-dandy shooters are in denial that they are actually shooting a gun. Let's face it, some of those things they shoot barely resemble guns. They are more like super-duper, high tech projectile launching platforms. Add to that their dandy little spandex suits and all that and perhaps they consider themselves more sportsman than shooter. And when some slob comes along with an ugly black gun (especially an import), they kind of treat you like trailer trash for having such an ugly beast. It's like they don't want to be associated with such people. I mean, hell, that CETME could hurt someone.

If you ask me, in the end what matters is who has the ability to take out 20 charging commies in quick succession. If you can do that with a 6 MOA rifle, then that's good enough.

Mattja; spoken like a true practical shooter!
the next in line is the sevice rifle shooter that likes to get them while they are still at 300 yds, then the hipower shooter that likes to shoot them at 600 yards, then the Palma guys that think 1000 yds is too close to let them aproach... but the other guys dont like to think of the targets as a formerly living object. just a peice of paper or clay that neeeds a hole in it[;)][:)]

 Regardless of the weapon that you have at hand, proficiency with said weapon is what counts in the long run, and the only way to be proficient is to PRACTICE PRACTICE PRACTICE.

 You can have a $2700 Palma rig, and if you do not practice, a guy with a rack grade M1A that shoots his rifle alot and knows his rifle will wipe your behind off the line.

 Chuck

Brought back a funny story.

While maybe 14 years old growing up, Dad took me to the local fish and game. They had a skeet shoot going on. We were up next to the towers. People were heckling, "what's that kid doing here. etc." I had an old Wincehster pump with a custom stock my Dad made. I yell pull and the skeet coming out the tower on my right breaks in two or more large pieces. I picked off the first piece racked in a new shell and took out the other piece in flight also. Well that pretty much shut eveyone up. My father was behind me and had this nice look on his face. Luck, maybe, it also may have had something to do with the fact we had our own clay pigeon thrower in the yard and shot quite a bit.

My father never had a big budget to spend on guns, so either a M1 or 8mm Mauser was his "sniper" rifle. He shut up a lot of people with just iron sights and reloads. I guess they never figured him for a former military sniper, with combat experince.

Why can't all shooters just get along??

I was on a Cruise when I was 9 y/o and decided I'd like to do the skeet shoot off the back of the boat. I payed my $8 and the guy handed me the shotgun. The people on the boat as well as the guy operating the thrower all thought I was some little kid. I yelled pull and blew the 1st skeet into little pieces. They all changes their minds after that. I broke the 2nd skeet in half. Obliterated the 3rd, missed the 4th and chipped the 5th. My dad has that on video somewhere. I'll have to see if this Thanksgiving (when I visit) I can scrounge it up and put it on the Internet or SVCD. It's real nice to wipe that look of people's faces when they realize a 9 y/o shoots better than them. I especially like the fact I outshot a LEO. I took the empty shells and video to school and showed to some classmates who thought it was real cool. Fortunately, this was before all the school shootings. Now, I'd probably get expelled or arrested for showing them a video of me shooting a gun.

"Can't we all just get along?"

I never make fun of anybody, and I try to be as helpful as possible to anyone. Yes, I have a Master highpower card (barely), but I'm no snob. I love to go blasting with my M1, M4gery, and other fun guns. Yet, I can probably outshoot most of you casusal shooters - with your rifle.

Why? Because shooting ability, or marksmanship, has nothing to do with equipment or ammo. It has to do with the 2 fundamentals of marksmanship : sight alignment and trigger control, and lots o' practice. These two fundamentals are required no matter what the gun - you align the sights on the target such that the bullet will strike the center, and you break the trigger without disturbing the sight alignment. Also, I can beat you because I practice my ass off. I shot over 3000 rounds last year in my AR service rifle. Standing, sitting, and prone. No bench. No sandbag. Rifle and sling only.

That old guy was a dickhead. I hope I never get that way when I'm old. Good shooting to all!