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Posted: 11/2/2001 7:21:42 AM EDT
Wednesday night, we got home from our Hallow's Eve festivities pretty late. My fiancee gave the dog some food, and just after that, the other dog came into the kitchen. At that point, our dog started growling, and the other dog left. However, he continued to growl at my fiancee (who was still standing there). She scolded him, and he got nastier. Long story short, he ended up biting her a few times and as I was coming in to get him, he got me twice. He knew immediately that he had been bad, and I certainly let him know that he was bad. How do some of you dog people think we should handle this? He is a very sweet dog...he LOVES people, but he is just funny about food. He was a street dog, but we've had him since Memorial Day. Also, I am usually the only person who feeds him, so he doesn't mind me being around his food but apparantly he doesn't like anyone else to be near him when he eats.
Link Posted: 11/2/2001 7:24:28 AM EDT
Have him put down. A dog that will bite people is not worth the powder to blow his head off. What if someone's kid was over?
Link Posted: 11/2/2001 7:28:32 AM EDT
The party is over. Lights out for Fido. Semper Fi
Link Posted: 11/2/2001 7:28:48 AM EDT
Originally Posted By RamblinWreck: Have him put down. A dog that will bite people is not worth the powder to blow his head off. What if someone's kid was over?
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That is certainly a concern...when people are over we would have to make sure he had NO food in his bowl. Like I said, that is the ONLY time he is not the sweetest dog in the world. Also, it is only over food in his bowl. He could care less about the other dog's food bowl.
Link Posted: 11/2/2001 7:28:50 AM EDT
As a dog lover, I think you are facing an important decision. If MY dog ever did that he'd be buried in the back yard within the hour. However, in your case, you have to decide whether this is strictly a food issue as you say, and whether the dog is likely to bite anyone at other times. I know it's not much help... FWIW, my dog is a Shep/Rott mix and weighs 120 lbs. A bite from him could be very bad indeed. Fortunately, he has never threatened anybody that didn't deserve it, and has never so much as growled at any kids.
Link Posted: 11/2/2001 7:29:53 AM EDT
Oh, forgot to add that he's about 10 months old.
Link Posted: 11/2/2001 7:30:52 AM EDT
Link Posted: 11/2/2001 7:34:33 AM EDT
My dog used to growl at me when it had foood in its dish. I just kept playing with her and her food, now she usualy sits and waits for me to quit sliding her foood dish across the floor unless she is real hungry. If she is real hungry she will put up with harassment while eating
Link Posted: 11/2/2001 7:34:49 AM EDT
Originally Posted By RamblinWreck: Have him put down. A dog that will bite people is not worth the powder to blow his head off. What if someone's kid was over?
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either put the dog down, or get a REALLY big azzed insurance policy for WHEN the dog bites a neighbor kid.
Link Posted: 11/2/2001 7:36:36 AM EDT
Is he fixed? Definitely have a talk with your vet about it. Keep in mind that Halloween can be very freaky for animals. If people were setting off fireworks while you were out, especially whistles (Piccolo Petes, etc.) he may have been very frightened. One Halloween two loose dogs destroyed my screen door trying to bust into my house while people were setting off some pretty pedestrian fountains across the street. That was really weird because I don't even have a dog and had never seen those two before. Dogs don't do things like that unless they are very scared.
Link Posted: 11/2/2001 7:37:37 AM EDT
Sounds like a Taliban dog....dead and doesn't even Know it. Put him down.
Link Posted: 11/2/2001 7:42:32 AM EDT
Make him perform for his food. Sit, lie down, etc.. My dog growls when he eats, too. However, that's all. He won't bite.
Link Posted: 11/2/2001 7:43:52 AM EDT
...also, did he nip or bite? Stitches or welt?
Link Posted: 11/2/2001 7:46:53 AM EDT
Being a street dog, he's picked up some bad habits, guarding his food being one of them. You need to give him a year or two. He's had a tuff beginning. Also every time he's fed, pet him as he eats. Take the two dogs on daily walks, and pet them a lot.
Link Posted: 11/2/2001 7:58:00 AM EDT
Originally Posted By RamblinWreck: Have him put down. A dog that will bite people is not worth the powder to blow his head off. What if someone's kid was over?
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Nonsense. Only once did my dog bite me. I accidently kicked his bowl across the floor! And boy he was really sorry afterwards. Didn't even have to scold him. Great dog, it's just their instinct. So after you give them food leave them alone. Unless you're a control freak...
Link Posted: 11/2/2001 8:04:11 AM EDT
I had a dog like that. You got to show him who is the master. Everytime he does that, WHACK! and the next and the next until he stop....or no food for him.
Link Posted: 11/2/2001 8:05:22 AM EDT
In over 10 years of EMS, I never heard anyone say "yeah, I knew my dog would bite'. what I did hear on every call with minor to severe injuries - bigger the dog, more often victim was bitten in face or throat - 'GEE HE/SHE NEVER DID THAT BEFORE'. I own/owned dogs/horses, would not own a horse that bites/kicks or a dog that bites.
Link Posted: 11/2/2001 8:11:06 AM EDT
What breed?
Link Posted: 11/2/2001 8:13:22 AM EDT
I hope you and your girlfriend have had all your shots, otherwise the poor thing might get sick. [:D] Seriously though - my mom & dad would start working with dogs right away when they were pups, by reaching down and taking their food from them and then giving it back. It worked wonders with their german shepards. When I was really young - 5 or 6 years old I could walk up to them & pick up their food dish. They'd just look at me and wait until I set it back down. There was never a problem. OTOH, I had a Border Collie that I went 'round and round with over this. Eventually I gave up & realized that the only time he ever got aggressive with me was when I pissed with his food. I just stopped leaving food out for him, and made sure he was alone when he ate. I'm not sure how I'd feel about this happening at 10 months old though. Either he's still young and very trainable (hopefully) or he going to be on helluva handful when he gets older. (hopefully not!) Good luck.
Link Posted: 11/2/2001 8:15:18 AM EDT
The only dog that ever bit me got shot.
Link Posted: 11/2/2001 8:27:56 AM EDT
Originally Posted By DPeacher: The party is over. Lights out for Fido.
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yeah! what he said!
Link Posted: 11/2/2001 8:32:29 AM EDT
When I was younger my parents adopted a second Westie. The household that she came from she ran the house and that was it. She would growl and show her teeth if she wouldn't get her way. She also would get really pissed if you came around her when she was eating.. It took awhile but she changed. We would purposely stand by her when she would eat and scold her if she growled and take her food away. My dad has a way with dogs though, He can somehow put the fear of god into them when he lowers his voice. I like the idea of making her do something for her food, Make her take it out of your hand and praise her, it's not an overnight transition. Give her a second chance, and talk to your vet. later, hawkin
Link Posted: 11/2/2001 8:39:33 AM EDT
Link Posted: 11/2/2001 8:56:02 AM EDT
You aren't doing anybody any favors by keeping that dog alive.
Link Posted: 11/2/2001 8:56:41 AM EDT
Did you seek psycological help for the dog? Only 6 mo off the streets and you expect Miss Manners. [rolleyes]I agree w/Hiram....
Link Posted: 11/2/2001 9:04:52 AM EDT
i had a dog like this, was a border collie mix that i found he was a great dog....smart as hell and nice to everybody usually....but he was the same way with the food thing he ended up getting worse and worse....it went from just food....to the house....to the lawn....to the neighborhood was out walking him one night and he lunged at another guy walking around, had to have him put to sleep.....if he ever got out and wasnt on a leash he would chew somebody up.....its too bad cause he was probably the best dog i ever had
Link Posted: 11/2/2001 9:25:28 AM EDT
Originally Posted By gixxer: i had a dog like this, was a border collie mix that i found he was a great dog....smart as hell and nice to everybody usually....but he was the same way with the food thing he ended up getting worse and worse....it went from just food....to the house....to the lawn....to the neighborhood was out walking him one night and he lunged at another guy walking around, had to have him put to sleep.....if he ever got out and wasnt on a leash he would chew somebody up.....its too bad cause he was probably the best dog i ever had
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Border Collies will only turn out one of two ways. If establish dominance as the alpha male in the house, they will be the most intelligent and loyal (fearsome for their size too!) friend you can ever have in a pet. If you don't - they [b]WILL[/b] end up running the house and eventually need to be put down. They're too damned smart for alot of people (limp wristed whiny liberals come to mind). They'll even use their natural herding abilities to "push" you around, and direct your movements. Alot of their movements are so subtle that they go unnoticed. "Oh look, he stepped out in front of me when I was walking down the hall" Bravo Sierra! He forced you to walk down the left side of the hall where [b]HE[/b] wanted you to walk. Can you tell I'm partial to them?????
Link Posted: 11/2/2001 9:34:29 AM EDT
I would not have the dog put down (yet). It is a tough decision to make. Make sure the dog is fixed and talk to the vet. There are also dog behavior experts that you might want to consult with. There are some drugs and also behavior modification techniques you can use. There is also something called "canine rage" which is almost like an epileptic attack a dog can have. I have a friend whose dog has this and it is under control now (they have two small kids). Have two rescue dogs and both had been previously abused by their owners--one tried to bite us (and my Mom) when he was new to the house--this was over food and chewies. Second dog has bitten several family members--but not to break skin--and got in a fight with another dog over a chewy where she did break skin. She is doing better now and will continue to improve. GunLvr
Link Posted: 11/2/2001 9:42:43 AM EDT
California_Kid, Yes, he is fixed (actually, if you asked him he'd probably say he's broken). Major-Murphy, He bit, but neither of us needed stiches. I'll explain more below. Chaingun, I usually do pet him when he eats. Frequently though, he won't approach the food bowl until I clear the way for him. cpermd, Mutt...this is him when we first got him. Here he was 30lbs, now he is 70lbs. [url]www.ar15.com/members/albums/Chimborazo%2F011%5F13%2EJPG[/url] a3kid, LOL!! Yes, my fiancee and I just got our shots at the vet last month. I hate when they take my temperature.[V] HiramRanger, No flame taken...you are partially correct. We are not the most knowledgable trainers. When we first got him, I put him on his back when he misbehaved. This has helped significantly, but he still doesn't respond well to verbal commands when he doesn't want to(and he does understand them). He doesn't respond until I get out of my chair. gixxer, That's what I'm afraid of. Part of the reason we got bitten is because we did not handle it well. Once he got nasty, my fiancee pursued him into the living room and on to the couch where he was cornered. This is when he bit her. I got bitten when I came in to drag his ass across the floor and out the door. His bites were not attack bites, they were defensive bites. He bit, but he did not hold on...more of a hard snap. Basically, he did not pursue. He didn't bite until he was cornered. He is large enough now where if he growls at me, I'm not going to lower my head and pick up his food bowl until he's at a safe distance. There are lots of good suggestions here that I will try...THANK YOU! Oh yeah, he's DEFINITELY going to obedience/behaviour modification school when we get back from vacation. Thanks again!! -Chimborazo
Link Posted: 11/2/2001 9:54:02 AM EDT
I had this problem with a Norwegian Elkhound. I couldn't even get my hand back from sitting down the bowl and he would nail my hand. Nothing serious, until the day he drew blood! I went back in the house, cleaned the wound and went to the "Hunting room", I proceeded to get every piece of heavy clothing on that I could, then went to my bedroom and got my motocross, protective gear on, full face helmet on. Proceed back to the dogs area, looking like the "Incredible Hulk" on a much needed laundry day [:D] Put my well gloved left hand down to the feed bowl and he nailed that hand, 1 second later, my well gloved right hand smashed into his snout! That damn dog and I must have done this about twenty times, before it sank into his thick skull! It worked though, that dog never bit or nipped at anyone ever again! RIP Frisky, you're missed [:(]
Link Posted: 11/2/2001 10:00:17 AM EDT
Originally Posted By AR308and223: I had this problem with a Norwegian Elkhound. I couldn't even get my hand back from sitting down the bowl and he would nail my hand. Nothing serious, until the day he drew blood! I went back in the house, cleaned the wound and went to the "Hunting room", I proceeded to get every piece of heavy clothing on that I could, then went to my bedroom and got my motocross, protective gear on, full face helmet on. Proceed back to the dogs area, looking like the "Incredible Hulk" on a much needed laundry day [:D] Put my well gloved left hand down to the feed bowl and he nailed that hand, 1 second later, my well gloved right hand smashed into his snout! That damn dog and I must have done this about twenty times, before it sank into his thick skull! It worked though, that dog never bit or nipped at anyone ever again! RIP Frisky, you're missed [:(]
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Ah yes - Hearth gloves - they're not just for fireplaces anymore!!! [:D]
Link Posted: 11/2/2001 10:03:30 AM EDT
"HiramRanger" has the right idea. Your dog can be conditioned to respect others if he sees you & fiancée as [i]dominant[/i]. Get a referral from the vet and go to an animal behaviorist. [b]Don't go it alone[/b]. His age means there's time for him to unlearn this behavioral trait. The behaviorist will work with the dog [i]and[/i] you to correct the problem. It's about establishing order in the pack so the dog will follow your lead, and about relieving the dog's need to compete/fight for its food. Good luck!
Link Posted: 11/2/2001 10:04:58 AM EDT
Being that he is still only 10 months old, it may not be too late to train him. The thing is, he has to be socialized while he eats. This means touching him, petting him and moving his food while he eats. Let him get used to the fact that he doesn't have to fight for his food and that you are the master "alpha".
Link Posted: 11/2/2001 10:09:27 AM EDT
maybe I'm just too heartless, or too ancient in my thinking - but I think an awful lot of this doggie behavioral stuff is bo-crap. They are ANIMALS. They act like ANIMALS. Sure they have personalities. But once those traits are set, they don't change them like HUMANS do. Heck, humans personalities hardly ever change once they reach adulthood (18+) Chimbo - I STRONGLY advise you to review your insurance coverage if you are gonna keep this animal / pet. Whatever behavioral modification / assertion of alpha male status [rolleyes] you achieve is NOT gonna change the way he behaves toward others. Or at least put a sign on your dog - "May bite your head off if you crowd his food bowl." Heck, even **** I ***** wear a sign like that. [BD]
Link Posted: 11/2/2001 10:26:47 AM EDT
I have watched my youngest daughter put her forehead against my Collie/Chow's forehead and push him off his foodbowl. He Growls but its in play and easy to tell. She growls back:) We have had him for 9 years now. He loves to play, but is getting old. My grandson is 1 year old and just mobile enough to sneek up on the dog. I have seen the dog get up from a sound sleep and run. But he has never growled at the baby, not even in play. You might be able to tell I love Sabot very much, but if he ever bit my wife or one of the kids, I would be in tears as I barried him in the back yard. Now the meter reader deserved what he got:).
Link Posted: 11/2/2001 10:38:30 AM EDT
Listen to Hiram. At ten months old this dogs bad behavior traits can still be changed. There is nothing here that is not correctable, or even unexpected, especially given its history. Kyle
Link Posted: 11/2/2001 10:47:26 AM EDT
Hey everybody, They pursued the dog into another room and backed him into a corner- most probably yelling and striking him. This was simple fear biting and was provoked. Hell, you chase me into another room acting like a crazy and me biting you will be the least of your concerns. To prevent this in the future, a couple of items. 1- Try obedience classes- only the basics really needed, sit-stay-come-down type of stuff. Then take your dog to some classes too. 2- You might consider feeding small amounts several times a day. Gets the dog used to linking food and you together- food good, fire bad 3- You might consider hand feeding the dog to make sure he links the two. 4- Be sure other dog is neutered also 5- Prozac can be used if necessary. However it does get expensive. 6- Crating the dog when you are not home might help settle him down some too. It looks like this was a joint screw up- the dog should not have growled in the first place, but then response from girlfriend only magnified problem. Mark Riehl DVM
Link Posted: 11/2/2001 10:54:15 AM EDT
Markeagle, You're right about the scenario, except we didn't strike him. I agree though, I think it was fear biting.
Link Posted: 11/2/2001 11:08:17 AM EDT
Link Posted: 11/2/2001 11:21:15 AM EDT
Originally Posted By HiramRanger: I am working on putting the fiance in the Beta role, but she needs to be more assertive.
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Speaking of the fiancee, how is Lady Shelby doing? Haven't seen you at HS2000Talk for quite some time. Chim, Since this mutt is just a puppy, I would say give it some time and don't put out any food if guests are over until you've trained it properly.
Link Posted: 11/2/2001 11:24:31 AM EDT
Link Posted: 11/2/2001 11:26:17 AM EDT
Link Posted: 11/2/2001 11:26:44 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/2/2001 11:21:38 AM EDT by scottsw1]
I have a Chow that would bite us for no reason when we first got her and I had thoughts about putting her down, but I trained her myself and am glad that I didn't shoot her because 4 years later she is the greatest and most loyal dog around. Here's how I did it. Make the dog wear a collar 24/7. Using a leash, make the dog follow you through the house and around the neighborhood. Leave the leash attached to the dog in the house and call it, if the dog doesn't come, then you must get close enough to the dog to grab the leash and call it again. If the dog still doesn't come, pull the dog toward you while calling it-this will give the dog the idea that he had better come when you call it and walking the dog on the leash teaches the dog that you are master. Keep using the above techniques everyday for 2 weeks and you should see some changes. If the dog misbehaves, throw a soda can filled with about 8 pennies in the general direction of the dog and watch him freak out! The pennies in the can trick helps to cure misbehavior! Hope that this helps.
Link Posted: 11/2/2001 11:26:45 AM EDT
Originally Posted By loonybin: Speaking of the fiancee, how is Lady Shelby doing? Haven't seen you at HS2000Talk for quite some time.
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Ahh, another HS2K Talker. What's your username over there? You can take a guess what mine is [:)]
Link Posted: 11/2/2001 11:33:18 AM EDT
Choices...choices... 1. Keep the pooch, try some obedience schools or other training regimens, and take out LOTS of liability insurance (Like maybe a $1 million umbrella rider on the homeowners/renters policy?), just on the off chance that Fido decides to chew on the neighbor's child. 2. Option two: Sad as it may sound...take Fido to the vet and give him the happy juice...if you are unable to, or the logistics preclude you from expending one round and burying him yourself. Personally, I think he'll do it again and next time you may not be so lucky. A good sized pooch like yours can do a lot of damage if provoked...and the provocation is in HIS mind...not yours or anybody elses. If he IS a biter...he must be trained to stop or be put down. Your choice. How much are you willing to invest to try and save your pup? Much as I'd hate it...I'd likely do it myself. [soapbox]
Link Posted: 11/2/2001 11:36:40 AM EDT
Can you say....Cujo????? [}:D]
Link Posted: 11/2/2001 12:18:25 PM EDT
Hiram is right on the money here. This dog needs time to unlearn his street survival behavior. You must show him that; #1) You are the alpha in the house and #2) there is always going to be food. Keep a bowl full at all times. Let him eat as much as he wants. Soon he will not worry about fighting for his last bite. You saved this dog for a reason. Give him another chance. He will learn. I have 7 dogs and all but 2 are from the street.
Link Posted: 11/2/2001 12:20:01 PM EDT
Honestly, the dog is only 10 months old [b]a puppy[/b] and you peope want to put him down? What kind of intelligent thinking is this? When your horse throws a shoe while riding and tosses you off, do you put a bullet through his head because it hurt when you fell on your ass? This is nothing but instinct, a little patience and some conditioning [b]WILL SOLVE THE PROBLEM[/B]. The dog obviously realized he had done somthing objectionable. I would more concerned if the animal showed no remorse after the transgretion. Hiram is totaly correct on this, there is no need to put the dog down
Link Posted: 11/2/2001 12:29:01 PM EDT
your dog may have shown remorse for what he did but what is he going to do if he gets out and gets hungry?what if he sees a little girl or boy eating a sandwich in the park and wants a bite of the sandwich?the child could lose their an arm ,leg or..... DON'T TAKE A CHANCE!!! the dog now has a history of biting you could lose in court if anything happened.. just my two cents dave[argue]
Link Posted: 11/2/2001 12:30:35 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/2/2001 12:29:23 PM EDT by blackeye]
This thread reminds me of the joke about a woman that picked up a rattlesnake, took it home and cared for it. Then after a few years. The snake bites her one day and she asks with a shocked look on her face... why? The snake says "You knew I was a snake when you first picked me up, Bitch!" ie...street dog I took in a cat that was wild and everything was OK for a few months until it attacked my leg one day and shredded my pants while getting me a few times. I didn't waste it. I just threw it right back out the damn door.
Link Posted: 11/2/2001 12:45:28 PM EDT
Originally Posted By po89mm: Honestly, the dog is only 10 months old [b]a puppy[/b] and you peope want to put him down? What kind of intelligent thinking is this? This is nothing but instinct, a little patience and some conditioning [b]WILL SOLVE THE PROBLEM[/B].
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I too would HATE putting the doggie down. I am animal lover. I can think of more HUMANS that need to be "put down" than I can think of animals that need to be. Alls I'm saying is that you gotta ask yersef - "Am I willing to bet my home and future on Cujo here becoming a reformed Cujo??" Cause that's what yer doin'. A liability lawsuit for a bitten child ALMOST ALWAYS gives an award to the bitten child, and a multi-million $$ award if its on the face. Just KNOW that that is the risk you are taking. For my $$$, you are foolish to take that risk without a multi-million $$$ liability umbrella policy to cover yer ass. Bt the time you add up the cost of the policy, the cost of doggie lessons, pet psychologists, books, doctors visits for dog bites that occur while you are training the biter to be an ex-biter, pet meds, counseling fer yersef while Cujo runs he house, new carpet for every time he urinates cuz he's unhappy 'bout the new "alpha" in town, doctors visits for Cujo draggin you down teh street, a new TV for the one ruined by the brick you threw at Cujo, I'm thinking it would just be a little more humane (and cost effective)to do what you are gonna eventually hafta do anyhow. Remember - lawsuits means MILLIONS. [b]Won't it be ironic if a stray doggie ends up making YOU homeless????[/b] Sure its a hard decision. All the important ones are.
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