User Panel
Posted: 11/2/2001 7:21:42 AM EDT
Wednesday night, we got home from our Hallow's Eve festivities pretty late. My fiancee gave the dog some food, and just after that, the other dog came into the kitchen. At that point, our dog started growling, and the other dog left. However, he continued to growl at my fiancee (who was still standing there). She scolded him, and he got nastier. Long story short, he ended up biting her a few times and as I was coming in to get him, he got me twice. He knew immediately that he had been bad, and I certainly let him know that he was bad.
How do some of you dog people think we should handle this? He is a very sweet dog...he LOVES people, but he is just funny about food. He was a street dog, but we've had him since Memorial Day. Also, I am usually the only person who feeds him, so he doesn't mind me being around his food but apparantly he doesn't like anyone else to be near him when he eats. |
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Have him put down. A dog that will bite people is not worth the powder to blow his head off. What if someone's kid was over?
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Quoted: Have him put down. A dog that will bite people is not worth the powder to blow his head off. What if someone's kid was over? View Quote That is certainly a concern...when people are over we would have to make sure he had NO food in his bowl. Like I said, that is the ONLY time he is not the sweetest dog in the world. Also, it is only over food in his bowl. He could care less about the other dog's food bowl. |
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As a dog lover, I think you are facing an important decision. If MY dog ever did that he'd be buried in the back yard within the hour. However, in your case, you have to decide whether this is strictly a food issue as you say, and whether the dog is likely to bite anyone at other times. I know it's not much help...
FWIW, my dog is a Shep/Rott mix and weighs 120 lbs. A bite from him could be very bad indeed. Fortunately, he has never threatened anybody that didn't deserve it, and has never so much as growled at any kids. |
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Call your vet and ask him for the name of a good behavior modification trainer. Dogs are pack animals and pack animals eat in a pecking order. Alpha always first. Your dog may view you as the alpha and the fiance as the omega. You need to establish the household with you as the alpha, fiancee as the beta and fido down the line.
Seriously folks, try to understand the dog's instincts and you will see why he did as he did and what can be done to ensure it will not happen again. |
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My dog used to growl at me when it had foood in its dish. I just kept playing with her and her food, now she usualy sits and waits for me to quit sliding her foood dish across the floor unless she is real hungry. If she is real hungry she will put up with harassment while eating
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Quoted: Have him put down. A dog that will bite people is not worth the powder to blow his head off. What if someone's kid was over? View Quote either put the dog down, or get a REALLY big azzed insurance policy for WHEN the dog bites a neighbor kid. |
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Is he fixed?
Definitely have a talk with your vet about it. Keep in mind that Halloween can be very freaky for animals. If people were setting off fireworks while you were out, especially whistles (Piccolo Petes, etc.) he may have been very frightened. One Halloween two loose dogs destroyed my screen door trying to bust into my house while people were setting off some pretty pedestrian fountains across the street. That was really weird because I don't even have a dog and had never seen those two before. Dogs don't do things like that unless they are very scared. |
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Sounds like a Taliban dog....dead and doesn't even Know it. Put him down.
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Make him perform for his food.
Sit, lie down, etc.. My dog growls when he eats, too. However, that's all. He won't bite. |
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Being a street dog, he's picked up some bad habits, guarding his food being one of them. You need to give him a year or two. He's had a tuff beginning.
Also every time he's fed, pet him as he eats. Take the two dogs on daily walks, and pet them a lot. |
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Quoted: Have him put down. A dog that will bite people is not worth the powder to blow his head off. What if someone's kid was over? View Quote Nonsense. Only once did my dog bite me. I accidently kicked his bowl across the floor! And boy he was really sorry afterwards. Didn't even have to scold him. Great dog, it's just their instinct. So after you give them food leave them alone. Unless you're a control freak... |
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I had a dog like that. You got to show him who is the master. Everytime he does that, WHACK! and the next and the next until he stop....or no food for him.
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In over 10 years of EMS, I never heard anyone say "yeah, I knew my dog would bite'. what I did hear on every call with minor to severe injuries - bigger the dog, more often victim was bitten in face or throat - 'GEE HE/SHE NEVER DID THAT BEFORE'. I own/owned dogs/horses, would not own a horse that bites/kicks or a dog that bites.
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I hope you and your girlfriend have had all your
shots, otherwise the poor thing might get sick. [:D] Seriously though - my mom & dad would start working with dogs right away when they were pups, by reaching down and taking their food from them and then giving it back. It worked wonders with their german shepards. When I was really young - 5 or 6 years old I could walk up to them & pick up their food dish. They'd just look at me and wait until I set it back down. There was never a problem. OTOH, I had a Border Collie that I went 'round and round with over this. Eventually I gave up & realized that the only time he ever got aggressive with me was when I pissed with his food. I just stopped leaving food out for him, and made sure he was alone when he ate. I'm not sure how I'd feel about this happening at 10 months old though. Either he's still young and very trainable (hopefully) or he going to be on helluva handful when he gets older. (hopefully not!) Good luck. |
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Quoted: The party is over. Lights out for Fido. View Quote yeah! what he said! |
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When I was younger my parents adopted a second Westie. The household that she came from she ran the house and that was it. She would growl and show her teeth if she wouldn't get her way. She also would get really pissed if you came around her when she was eating.. It took awhile but she changed. We would purposely stand by her when she would eat and scold her if she growled and take her food away. My dad has a way with dogs though, He can somehow put the fear of god into them when he lowers his voice. I like the idea of making her do something for her food, Make her take it out of your hand and praise her, it's not an overnight transition. Give her a second chance, and talk to your vet.
later, hawkin |
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You people amaze me, you really do. Anyone need to borrow a machete to lop off their nose to spite their face?
1. This dog was rescued from the streets, where it likely had to fight for every scrap of food it got. 2. The dog is ten months old, just recently coming into the age where they are viable for breeding. the dog has more testosterone coursing through it then a pack of 9th graders from an all boys school at a sorority party. 3. The owner has probably done a pretty poor job os setting a hierarchy in the household. its not a flame, just something we often let slide when we are dealing with animals. We take them in as part of the family and don't think of the fact that dogs see the world differently then we do. I would do the following. If not done so already, neuter him. Enforce discipline at meal time. This is how I did it with my pug. YES, pug! Dogs have no concept of size really, I have seen poodle bitches take dominance over a large male GSD, its all attitude. Meal time, next to mating, is the perhaps the most likely time for challenges of dominance to occur. I make the dog sit and hold. I then place the food on the floor six feet in front of him. I give the command to release and he approaches the food dish. I loudly order him back and to sit again. This goes on several times, the whole time I am reinforcing in him that he eats WHEN I say he eats. I then leave the room while commanding him to sit and stay. He doesn't know that I have placed a mirror near his food that allows me to see from around the corner whether he is still sitting or is approaching the food. Every time he moves, he gets ordered to sit. After about five to ten minutes of this he is allowed to eat. Once in awhile I mixed it up by taking his food away while he ate, and once he took a bite at me. I then floored him on his back with my hand on his throat as I growled in his face. Granted, this is easier to do with a 25 pound pug then a 100 pound Rot. That is why you do it when they are puppies. He now knows I am the undisputed Alpha of the house. I am working on putting the fiance in the Beta role, but she needs to be more assertive. |
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You aren't doing anybody any favors by keeping that dog alive.
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Did you seek psycological help for the dog? Only 6 mo off the streets and you expect Miss Manners. [rolleyes]I agree w/Hiram....
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i had a dog like this, was a border collie mix that i found
he was a great dog....smart as hell and nice to everybody usually....but he was the same way with the food thing he ended up getting worse and worse....it went from just food....to the house....to the lawn....to the neighborhood was out walking him one night and he lunged at another guy walking around, had to have him put to sleep.....if he ever got out and wasnt on a leash he would chew somebody up.....its too bad cause he was probably the best dog i ever had |
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Quoted: i had a dog like this, was a border collie mix that i found he was a great dog....smart as hell and nice to everybody usually....but he was the same way with the food thing he ended up getting worse and worse....it went from just food....to the house....to the lawn....to the neighborhood was out walking him one night and he lunged at another guy walking around, had to have him put to sleep.....if he ever got out and wasnt on a leash he would chew somebody up.....its too bad cause he was probably the best dog i ever had View Quote Border Collies will only turn out one of two ways. If establish dominance as the alpha male in the house, they will be the most intelligent and loyal (fearsome for their size too!) friend you can ever have in a pet. If you don't - they [b]WILL[/b] end up running the house and eventually need to be put down. They're too damned smart for alot of people (limp wristed whiny liberals come to mind). They'll even use their natural herding abilities to "push" you around, and direct your movements. Alot of their movements are so subtle that they go unnoticed. "Oh look, he stepped out in front of me when I was walking down the hall" Bravo Sierra! He forced you to walk down the left side of the hall where [b]HE[/b] wanted you to walk. Can you tell I'm partial to them????? |
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I would not have the dog put down (yet). It is a tough decision to make. Make sure the dog is fixed and talk to the vet. There are also dog behavior experts that you might want to consult with. There are some drugs and also behavior modification techniques you can use. There is also something called "canine rage" which is almost like an epileptic attack a dog can have. I have a friend whose dog has this and it is under control now (they have two small kids).
Have two rescue dogs and both had been previously abused by their owners--one tried to bite us (and my Mom) when he was new to the house--this was over food and chewies. Second dog has bitten several family members--but not to break skin--and got in a fight with another dog over a chewy where she did break skin. She is doing better now and will continue to improve. GunLvr |
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California_Kid,
Yes, he is fixed (actually, if you asked him he'd probably say he's broken). Major-Murphy, He bit, but neither of us needed stiches. I'll explain more below. Chaingun, I usually do pet him when he eats. Frequently though, he won't approach the food bowl until I clear the way for him. cpermd, Mutt...this is him when we first got him. Here he was 30lbs, now he is 70lbs. [url]www.ar15.com/members/albums/Chimborazo%2F011%5F13%2EJPG[/url] a3kid, LOL!! Yes, my fiancee and I just got our shots at the vet last month. I hate when they take my temperature.[V] HiramRanger, No flame taken...you are partially correct. We are not the most knowledgable trainers. When we first got him, I put him on his back when he misbehaved. This has helped significantly, but he still doesn't respond well to verbal commands when he doesn't want to(and he does understand them). He doesn't respond until I get out of my chair. gixxer, That's what I'm afraid of. Part of the reason we got bitten is because we did not handle it well. Once he got nasty, my fiancee pursued him into the living room and on to the couch where he was cornered. This is when he bit her. I got bitten when I came in to drag his ass across the floor and out the door. His bites were not attack bites, they were defensive bites. He bit, but he did not hold on...more of a hard snap. Basically, he did not pursue. He didn't bite until he was cornered. He is large enough now where if he growls at me, I'm not going to lower my head and pick up his food bowl until he's at a safe distance. There are lots of good suggestions here that I will try...THANK YOU! Oh yeah, he's DEFINITELY going to obedience/behaviour modification school when we get back from vacation. Thanks again!! -Chimborazo |
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I had this problem with a Norwegian Elkhound. I couldn't even get my hand back from sitting down the bowl and he would nail my hand. Nothing serious, until the day he drew blood!
I went back in the house, cleaned the wound and went to the "Hunting room", I proceeded to get every piece of heavy clothing on that I could, then went to my bedroom and got my motocross, protective gear on, full face helmet on. Proceed back to the dogs area, looking like the "Incredible Hulk" on a much needed laundry day [:D] Put my well gloved left hand down to the feed bowl and he nailed that hand, 1 second later, my well gloved right hand smashed into his snout! That damn dog and I must have done this about twenty times, before it sank into his thick skull! It worked though, that dog never bit or nipped at anyone ever again! RIP Frisky, you're missed [:(] |
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Quoted: I had this problem with a Norwegian Elkhound. I couldn't even get my hand back from sitting down the bowl and he would nail my hand. Nothing serious, until the day he drew blood! I went back in the house, cleaned the wound and went to the "Hunting room", I proceeded to get every piece of heavy clothing on that I could, then went to my bedroom and got my motocross, protective gear on, full face helmet on. Proceed back to the dogs area, looking like the "Incredible Hulk" on a much needed laundry day [:D] Put my well gloved left hand down to the feed bowl and he nailed that hand, 1 second later, my well gloved right hand smashed into his snout! That damn dog and I must have done this about twenty times, before it sank into his thick skull! It worked though, that dog never bit or nipped at anyone ever again! RIP Frisky, you're missed [:(] View Quote Ah yes - Hearth gloves - they're not just for fireplaces anymore!!! [:D] |
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"HiramRanger" has the right idea. Your dog can be conditioned to respect others if he sees you & fiancée as [i]dominant[/i]. Get a referral from the vet and go to an animal behaviorist. [b]Don't go it alone[/b].
His age means there's time for him to unlearn this behavioral trait. The behaviorist will work with the dog [i]and[/i] you to correct the problem. It's about establishing order in the pack so the dog will follow your lead, and about relieving the dog's need to compete/fight for its food. Good luck! |
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Being that he is still only 10 months old, it may not be too late to train him. The thing is, he has to be socialized while he eats. This means touching him, petting him and moving his food while he eats. Let him get used to the fact that he doesn't have to fight for his food and that you are the master "alpha".
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maybe I'm just too heartless, or too ancient in my thinking -
but I think an awful lot of this doggie behavioral stuff is bo-crap. They are ANIMALS. They act like ANIMALS. Sure they have personalities. But once those traits are set, they don't change them like HUMANS do. Heck, humans personalities hardly ever change once they reach adulthood (18+) Chimbo - I STRONGLY advise you to review your insurance coverage if you are gonna keep this animal / pet. Whatever behavioral modification / assertion of alpha male status [rolleyes] you achieve is NOT gonna change the way he behaves toward others. Or at least put a sign on your dog - "May bite your head off if you crowd his food bowl." Heck, even **** I ***** wear a sign like that. [BD] |
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I have watched my youngest daughter put her forehead against my Collie/Chow's forehead and push him off his foodbowl. He Growls but its in play and easy to tell. She growls back:) We have had him for 9 years now. He loves to play, but is getting old. My grandson is 1 year old and just mobile enough to sneek up on the dog. I have seen the dog get up from a sound sleep and run. But he has never growled at the baby, not even in play. You might be able to tell I love Sabot very much, but if he ever bit my wife or one of the kids, I would be in tears as I barried him in the back yard. Now the meter reader deserved what he got:).
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Listen to Hiram. At ten months old this dogs bad behavior traits can still be changed. There is nothing here that is not correctable, or even unexpected, especially given its history.
Kyle |
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Hey everybody,
They pursued the dog into another room and backed him into a corner- most probably yelling and striking him. This was simple fear biting and was provoked. Hell, you chase me into another room acting like a crazy and me biting you will be the least of your concerns. To prevent this in the future, a couple of items. 1- Try obedience classes- only the basics really needed, sit-stay-come-down type of stuff. Then take your dog to some classes too. 2- You might consider feeding small amounts several times a day. Gets the dog used to linking food and you together- food good, fire bad 3- You might consider hand feeding the dog to make sure he links the two. 4- Be sure other dog is neutered also 5- Prozac can be used if necessary. However it does get expensive. 6- Crating the dog when you are not home might help settle him down some too. It looks like this was a joint screw up- the dog should not have growled in the first place, but then response from girlfriend only magnified problem. Mark Riehl DVM |
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Markeagle,
You're right about the scenario, except we didn't strike him. I agree though, I think it was fear biting. |
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AR308and223 had exactly the right idea--and it works. If you are not prepared to show the dog, [b]using language it understands,[/b] who the alpha packmembers are, you will be bitten repeatedly. There is a book by a man named Fox, I believe it is called "Understand Dog Behavior" that explains pack behavior in great detail, and how to understand/deal with it. Remember first, your dog is a dog, not a human. He thinks you are ugly dogs, not people. He does not speak English, you speak funny dog that he only partly understands. He understands pack body language perfectly. You are not showing dominant behavior, backed up with the necessary snarling and grabbing of the back of the neck/throat area with your mouth/fangs. If you, and your GF will not do this, off the bastard. He will run your house/his den and you will live in terror. If he bites you, he will bite strangers. Long story longer, kill him now. Sorry. Been there, did it, but only once out of many hunting dogs. I am the alpha dog. Period. You will not bite me, or my wife. Try your limits, I wallop you (dog fashion), bite me, I kill you. End of training lesson. Good luck.
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Quoted: I am working on putting the fiance in the Beta role, but she needs to be more assertive. View Quote Speaking of the fiancee, how is Lady Shelby doing? Haven't seen you at HS2000Talk for quite some time. Chim, Since this mutt is just a puppy, I would say give it some time and don't put out any food if guests are over until you've trained it properly. |
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I repeat, their is absolutely NO reason to put this dog down yet!
ALL aggressive behavior by domesticated dogs toward humans is LEARNED, it is not instinctual! Raise a puppy lovingly from the start and he will NOT act up like this. This dog was ABUSED. You can correct his behavior by asserting your dominance while also treating him with kindness. All commands to my dog are firm. He knows by the simple tone of my voice that I mean business. He knows this because from day one I gave him strong commands that were followed by physical discipline/correction if he did not obey. When he obeyed he received praise or treats. He understands that in the household I am "God." The couple occassions where he challenged me I took him down instantly and in a way some might consider violent. No harm was done, but he literally had the $hit scared out of him when I hoisted him nearly seven feet of the ground by the nape of his neck - once again easy to do given the dog's size. Follow my suggestions, or if you aren't comfortable going it on your own, call the vet and have him hook you up with a good trainer. They will only do what I told you to do, but they are experienced in doing it. I used to assist a trainer who specialized in modifying the behavior of rescued pit bulls used in the illegal fights in inner city Albany. With very few exceptions we were able to save the dogs and introduce them into good homes without problems. |
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The Lady Shelby is doing fine, thanks for asking! Her cat is in the hospital right now, so she is a wee bit depressed, but she should be coming home tonight which will cheer Shelby up.
Haven't been around HS2K much. Please give my best to Kermee, Marko and the boys! |
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I have a Chow that would bite us for no reason when we first got her and I had thoughts about putting her down, but I trained her myself and am glad that I didn't shoot her because 4 years later she is the greatest and most loyal dog around.
Here's how I did it. Make the dog wear a collar 24/7. Using a leash, make the dog follow you through the house and around the neighborhood. Leave the leash attached to the dog in the house and call it, if the dog doesn't come, then you must get close enough to the dog to grab the leash and call it again. If the dog still doesn't come, pull the dog toward you while calling it-this will give the dog the idea that he had better come when you call it and walking the dog on the leash teaches the dog that you are master. Keep using the above techniques everyday for 2 weeks and you should see some changes. If the dog misbehaves, throw a soda can filled with about 8 pennies in the general direction of the dog and watch him freak out! The pennies in the can trick helps to cure misbehavior! Hope that this helps. |
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Quoted: Speaking of the fiancee, how is Lady Shelby doing? Haven't seen you at HS2000Talk for quite some time. View Quote Ahh, another HS2K Talker. What's your username over there? You can take a guess what mine is [:)] |
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Choices...choices...
1. Keep the pooch, try some obedience schools or other training regimens, and take out LOTS of liability insurance (Like maybe a $1 million umbrella rider on the homeowners/renters policy?), just on the off chance that Fido decides to chew on the neighbor's child. 2. Option two: Sad as it may sound...take Fido to the vet and give him the happy juice...if you are unable to, or the logistics preclude you from expending one round and burying him yourself. Personally, I think he'll do it again and next time you may not be so lucky. A good sized pooch like yours can do a lot of damage if provoked...and the provocation is in HIS mind...not yours or anybody elses. If he IS a biter...he must be trained to stop or be put down. Your choice. How much are you willing to invest to try and save your pup? Much as I'd hate it...I'd likely do it myself. [soapbox] |
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Hiram is right on the money here. This dog needs time to unlearn his street survival behavior. You must show him that; #1) You are the alpha in the house and #2) there is always going to be food. Keep a bowl full at all times. Let him eat as much as he wants. Soon he will not worry about fighting for his last bite. You saved this dog for a reason. Give him another chance. He will learn. I have 7 dogs and all but 2 are from the street.
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Honestly, the dog is only 10 months old [b]a puppy[/b] and you peope want to put him down?
What kind of intelligent thinking is this? When your horse throws a shoe while riding and tosses you off, do you put a bullet through his head because it hurt when you fell on your ass? This is nothing but instinct, a little patience and some conditioning [b]WILL SOLVE THE PROBLEM[/B]. The dog obviously realized he had done somthing objectionable. I would more concerned if the animal showed no remorse after the transgretion. Hiram is totaly correct on this, there is no need to put the dog down |
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your dog may have shown remorse for what he did but what is he going to do if he gets out and gets hungry?what if he sees a little girl or boy eating a sandwich in the park and wants a bite of the sandwich?the child could lose their an arm ,leg or..... DON'T TAKE A CHANCE!!! the dog now has a history of biting you could lose in court if anything happened.. just my two cents dave[argue]
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This thread reminds me of the joke about a woman that picked up a rattlesnake, took it home and cared for it. Then after a few years. The snake bites her one day and she asks with a shocked look on her face... why?
The snake says "You knew I was a snake when you first picked me up, Bitch!" ie...street dog I took in a cat that was wild and everything was OK for a few months until it attacked my leg one day and shredded my pants while getting me a few times. I didn't waste it. I just threw it right back out the damn door. |
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Quoted: Honestly, the dog is only 10 months old [b]a puppy[/b] and you peope want to put him down? What kind of intelligent thinking is this? This is nothing but instinct, a little patience and some conditioning [b]WILL SOLVE THE PROBLEM[/B]. View Quote I too would HATE putting the doggie down. I am animal lover. I can think of more HUMANS that need to be "put down" than I can think of animals that need to be. Alls I'm saying is that you gotta ask yersef - "Am I willing to bet my home and future on Cujo here becoming a reformed Cujo??" Cause that's what yer doin'. A liability lawsuit for a bitten child ALMOST ALWAYS gives an award to the bitten child, and a multi-million $$ award if its on the face. Just KNOW that that is the risk you are taking. For my $$$, you are foolish to take that risk without a multi-million $$$ liability umbrella policy to cover yer ass. Bt the time you add up the cost of the policy, the cost of doggie lessons, pet psychologists, books, doctors visits for dog bites that occur while you are training the biter to be an ex-biter, pet meds, counseling fer yersef while Cujo runs he house, new carpet for every time he urinates cuz he's unhappy 'bout the new "alpha" in town, doctors visits for Cujo draggin you down teh street, a new TV for the one ruined by the brick you threw at Cujo, I'm thinking it would just be a little more humane (and cost effective)to do what you are gonna eventually hafta do anyhow. Remember - lawsuits means MILLIONS. [b]Won't it be ironic if a stray doggie ends up making YOU homeless????[/b] Sure its a hard decision. All the important ones are. |
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