I guess I have to stick my nose into this controversy.  I am a Southern Baptist (living in California.)

"Baptists are so hypocritical..."  Reminds me of a story my Southern Baptist preacher told in church one Sunday.  It seems that a guy was talking to a minister who invited him to come to church.

"I can't come to your church..there are too many hypocrites in there!"

"That's ok, there's always room for one more, mister," the minister replied.

"Judgmental?!"  Wow, if *only* that were true!!!!!!!!!!!
This complaint reminds me of the NPR leftists who complain about how All-Powerful the NRA is (If ONLY that were true).

To illustrate-->One of the kids I was teaching said to me, "I didn't know you were a Christian."  You have no idea how much that reproached  and shamed me.  I was so "judgmental" and "imposing" that they couldn't even tell I was a Christian.

The only people I see "imposing their beliefs" on others are vocal minorities, such as atheists, liberals, socialists and democrats. No matter that thousands of Christians in a high-school want to pray at a graduation, ONE atheist can stop it all with a word.

"Religious extremists"?!  This country was started by "religious extremists" (Christians), who gave us freedom to worship however we please.  You don't see that in Islamic countries, and so I think you must distinguish between categories of religious extremists.

I grew up in a small rural town here, and went to a Mormon boyscout troop so I could go camping as a kid.  Thank God those "religious extremists" let me into their scout troop.  And I distinctly recall that they were well behaved, very respectful of my religious beliefs.
Some of my little Mormon friends had garages taken up with stacks of 5 gallon buckets full of stored food.  I remember thinking it was kind of unusual, but a good idea, nonetheless.

I guess I'm only an aspiring religious extremist.

One of the bad things about our current so-called culture is that it is somehow "wrong" to be extreme.  Why?  I watched this awful Texan commie woman on C-SPAN once (was it Molly Ivins?) commenting on extremism, "The only thing in the middle of the road is a yellow stripe and dead armadillos."

I told this anecdote to one of my extremist engineer friends, and he was insulted.  "It is not cowardly or stupid to be a moderate," he said, instinctively fearing the extremist label.

I just told him, "Look #######, you are the biggest extremist I know, so it doesn't apply to you."  We had been talking over politics and his views on religion, and so when the realization came to him that he was actually an extremist, and not a moderate, he was visibly relieved.

--------
"Gimme that old time religion.."

The political left in America and the world over engage in the promotion of their leftist ideologies with fanatical religious ferver. The vast majority of left wing politicians are far more bigoted than their liberal constituancies but liberalism is inherantly bigoted on every level. Conservatives are subject to the majority of the most vulgar liberal bigotry which is especially intended for Christian conservatives. Liberals in America today, particularly those of the democratic party are in essence puritans that have no regard or tolerance for opposing viewpoints.

The single most fundamental rule of liberalism is that the opposing view is wrong and it is the liberal's responsibility to devise and implement a solution to the damage it is doing. This is bigotry and arrogance. The liberal elite is comprised of left wing elected officials and leftward leaning members of the intelligencia that dominate America's public education system, college campuses,and the entertainment industry. These widely accepted seemingly non-threatening components of our society demonstrate prejudice so often that their bigotry has been integrated into their personas and go nearly unnoticed . The open scorn of opposing viewpoints is as blantant now as it ever was in the Soviet Union, and any other totalitarian ideological monopoly. Granted, we are not an ideological monopoly, but there is a clear effort to relegate non-liberal thinkers to the fringes of society.

The unfortunate systematic public ridicule of those who oppose the left wing is felt by the Christian community more than anyone else. People of Christian faith as well as strong conservative ideals are routinely refered to as bigots and hatemongers. This is in most cases followed by an immediate lampooning and hateful dehumanizing comments. The fact is, much to the chagrin of anti-Christian liberals, everyone from the founding fathers to the union soldiers and republican led legislature of the cival war era, not to mention Dr. Martin Luther King, has put forth their greatest efforts for good under the teaching of Jesus Christ.

Oh, well. Everyone knows that atheists have killed more people than all the Christian religions combined.

(cont.)The democratic party's entire public image revolves around so-called tolerance and inclusion, but for this to be what they truly believe, they would not in good consience work so diligently to destroy any philosophical opposition. The self proclaimed party of the downtrodden and disinfranchised have worked diligently on carefully coreographed attacks on anything that would possibly oppose their agenda. The extreme left wing are so enamored with what they believe to be compassion and justice they have in essence become fanatics reminiscent of religious puritians. The criteria in their minds for being wrong and evil is different from them, which is the consumate example of bigotry. In this liberal fanaticism is that they do not limit their attacks to conservative politicians and leaders, but they wage idealological warfare against average American citizens with tactics like class warfare and the deplorable forced dependancy of black people on the government.

The global media culture will no doubt continue to promote mistrust toward conservatism, while left-wing zealots maintain their attacks on the right. Whether it be politicians or average individuals who disagree with them, they are still subject to racial McCarthyism and the "tolerance" inquisition that has provided ammunition for countless political assassinations. Conservatives will continue to be called racist and homophobes and whatever other felonious bigoted slurs the left choose to pelt them with. Never underestimate the profound effects of even the pettiest among us. The one thing the left has never understood is that there are fundamental truths and there is an absolute right and an absolute wrong. These guiding principles of universal law are the moral underpinnings of America's fundamental goodness and the source of our strength. Ronald Reagan said it the very best in his first inaugural address: "No arsenal or weapon in the arsenals of the world is so formidable as the will and moral courage of free men and women."



PS: I did this one about a year,it just seem to fit in here.

Garmentless, I don't know if you wanted to be smart a$$ with that post but your right.
So if you ment to be right,great job! you have done your home work.
If not..........nice try[:D]

Just so, Mr. a2carbine.

well said.

1) People who bash our beliefs need to read the Bible.  We follow very closely what the holy word of God says.  I don't always FULLY agree with Southern Baptist beliefs in general, but I definitely believe that this religion follows the Bible's teachings as closely or even more so than any other denomination.

2) Remember, we are all sinners and I'm ashamed to admit that I sometimes do things that I know are wrong.  However, I also have even more good "clean" fun without doing something "evil".  I think a preacher I once heard said it best.  He said that a man called Christians hypocrits because they don't practice what they preach.  The preacher said "Yes, they are.  But thank GOD they're trying".  Remember we are not perfect and are human beings just like anyone.  At least we try to do right most of the time.  I think the true hypocrits are the ones who bad mouth Christians for trying to do the right thing but fall short, while the hypocrit bashers sit around and do nothing at all.

3) Halloween was originally based on a celebration of evil things.  That being said, I don't see it as a sin to dress your kids up and take them trick-or-treating.  We have just made a personal choice in our family not to do that.  Instead we go to our Church for a "fall festival".  It is full of games and prizes and the kids get more candy participating in those activities than if they had gone out trick-or-treating.  And, they get to do so in a safe, worry-free environment where we build up their confidence and self-esteem and display loving attitudes to a lot of kids in the community who aren't fortunate enough to get that from their families on a daily basis.

4) It is very gratifying to see these Christian hating hard cases finally meet the Lord.  I've heard so many testimonies where these "tough guys" are eventually broken by the love of God shown through His followers.  One such story was a U.S. Army guy who beat up a fellow recruit who was a Christian trying to teach him about God.  After the bloodied individual told him that he still loved him and wanted him to know Jesus, the "tough guy" broke down and realized their must be more to being a Christian than first meets the eye.  He was instantly transformed into something that Christian haters just don't understand because they won't let their guard down and experience it.

5) Southern Baptists do not force their religion on anyone.  However, the Bible does teach us to go out and share the word of God and witness to unbelievers.  Do not hate us for doing what the word of God says.  We do it because we love and care for everyone just as God loves and cares for everyone.

6) One of the things I am truly frightened of is Judgement Day.  Not only will I have to answer for all of my sins, but I will have to hear the cries of unbelievers saying "Why didn't you tell me about God?" as there are cast into the fire and brimstone pit of Hell.  (Yes, it is definitely a real place.)  I want to tell everyone about it because nobody has to suffer that fate.  God made it your choice as to where you spend eternity.  All you have to do is believe in Him and ask.

7)  As I said, I have a lot of fun.  I am a regular guy and not a holy-roller.  I hot-rod my Z28 Camaro around town and shoot my guns like a crazy man.  I don't run around talking like this to people every day, it's just that I'm braver behind a keyboard than normal and because you brought up this Christian bashing.

Thanks!

BBURN

And then proceeded to sign the machine gun law of '86. Will and "moral courage" won't do squat without the weapons to back it up if SHTF. I'll take Reagen/Bush over Carter/Klinton any day, but the gub'mint is out to fukk us and so far I don't see any "intervention" helping anywhere.

And people talking about christian bashing (not directed to anyone in particular). One minute it's any one who isn't religious is a leftist, the next their griping like a minority looking for a lawsuit because someone doesn't agree with them.

I'm not religious OR socialist. When it comes to weaponry, I leave my "prejudices" at the door when I come here. Of course this is a peek, but I hope you see what I mean.

 BBURN - Go, son, I think you are onto something.
 Southern Shark - You are overreacting.  Why?

Don't talk sh!t about RR,the law that passes under him was nothing.
Why is it that any law is the end of all freedom and you must fight it how ever you can.
What a knee jerk!

And you may not be a socialist but the point is you act like one if you tell others that are openly christian that they are the seed of evil and push them selves on everybody.
Thats not true and nobody here can back it up with anything other than more BS.

Guys live this Shark dude go way over top cuz they are A$$ Holes.
It's always people like that who need to jump on somebody for thinking ANYTHING!
He is anti-religious not unreligious.
If was just not a religious guy he would never have posted this crap.
He wanted this fight and the other antis in here jumped right in,it's funny how some of us hate antis of one thing and not of another.
I gess some of you guys are not as American as you think.
And yes I know what a big deal it is to say that!  
Some people are unamerican antis, if not guns something else that can't do anything bad with out a sick'o to missuse it.

If you spend any significant amount of time on the ak.ar15.com forum, you'll get used to this.  It's not merely reckless disregard for the sensitivities of some members here, it's intentional.  With several hundred members here, and with southern baptists being generally conservative folks, it is very easy to understand that there will be people here that will be offended by his blunt, inflamatory remarks.

It's one thing to have a civil discourse about religious differences or pet peeves; it's another to compare an entire christian denomination to the taliban.  He knew EXACTLY what he was doing, and it certainly comes as no surprise to me.  He enjoys starting devisive topics to cause turmoil among this fine community here.  Counterproductivity is his hallmark.

[(:|)]

Sir, what you believe, and why you believe it, are known only to two "people" - you and God.

Only ONE of those two "people" understand WHY you believe what you believe.

[moon]

Ditto!
[b]Bluffton Baptist Church[/b]
Bluffton, OH

Yes, I'm serious A2Carbine. And one more thing... If it weren't for Christianity we'd have had Arab pogroms after 9/11. If the WTC had happened in any non-Christian country in the world there would have been murderous riots. Bloody, Arab-killing orgies.
All of the Arabs here should convert to Christianity just out of gratefulness that their homes weren't burnt.

It would be worthy to note that the people who know SouthernShark KNOW him to be a troll, and have told us that his primary goal in life is to divide gun owners.

Accordingly, regardless of what we believe, we should give him the attention he deserves - which is toi say "None."

FWIW -

I too once made the mistake of thinking that MANY gun owners were God-fearing church attending Bible reading religious types (like me.) SS is trying to capitalize on this misunderstanding and send a rift down our middle. Don't let him do it.

And well said yourself, Erasmus.

Hey - how about the three of us kill off everybody else??? That's what they are claiming us "religious fanantics" secretly  want to do anyway, so let's not dissappoint them!!!!!!!

{said with HEAVY sarcasm}

Got room on the squad for one more, Garandman?

[:D]

I have no idea who Political Science is.  So no he doesn't KNOW me at all.  I saw him post once or twice on the other board and I dared to disagree with his statements.  I guess that makes me a troll.

Proves my point, you label anyone who disagrees with the Religious right as a troll who is trying to divide gun owners.  Whatever....

Gun owners are already divided on most issues. That's why there are 80,000,000 gun owners in America, but only 4.5 million in the NRA (of which I am a proud member).  

I admit that I should not have called the Southern Baptist scum, but what's said is said. If this sort of statement "DIVIDES" gun owners, then we don't have any chance of forming a coalition.  You people are going to chase off anyone who doesn't follow your religious views (about 90% of America).

Yes, most of you probably would consider me to be a liberal.  I am a libertarian.  I am not religious.  I believe in FREEDOM.  And I am pro-choice.  


-SS

[:K]

I wasn't talking shit about RR. Did he, or did he not, pass the '86 machine gun law?
And I didn't say it was the end of all freedom. Just that we're getting the screws from all sides. Just more actively from the left. The right isn't perfect either. See previous example and the '89 import ban.

That's a good point.  If gun owners want to succeed you have to reach out beyond the right wing.  Guns can't be just another tool used to get right wing politicians elected (who really don't care about the gun issue).  There is a lot of people out there, like myself, who are not members of the religious right, but I'm still pro-gun and still anti-socialist.  You can't just run off everyone who disagrees with your morale views, because if you do then you are going to LOOSE in a big way.


-SS

Post from ghettoblaster -

No he did not! Presidents do not 'pass' laws in our Republic, they either sign or veto laws that have been passed by the Legislature.

In 1986, the Democratically-controlled House added a last minute amendment to the 'Gun Owners Protection Act' that prohibited new transferrable Class III weapons from being licensed under the NFA. The mariginally GOP-controlled Senate was in no position to keep the amendment from being agreed to in Conference, and President Reagan 'signed' the bill into law.

I don't know how old you guys are, but one of the most critical changes in the '86 Act was the elimination of the 'ammo sign-up' provisions of the prior law - any time you bought ammo, you had to show your license and sign up in a book! Thank God that went away!

As I've said [i]ad nauseum[/i], if you don't like the present gun laws, then keep voting Republican!

Eric The(ReaganIsStillMyHero!)Hun[>]:)]

Southern Babtists are not what they used to be. I was raised as one & my Mother still is a hardcore SB but she loves Halloween. Strangely enough the anti-Halloween movement has invaded her church as well. Fortunately she has enough balls to tell them they're crazy & takes her grand-daughter Trick-or-treating.  Just as all white males aren't Timothy McVeigh, not all SB's are snake handling Halloween anti's.

[b]Sign[/b] the '86 machine gun law then.

Anyhow, so he could have vetoed that, but didn't?

I do vote Republican.

And where would we be now? Still 'agitating' to get those ammo-registration laws overturned?

There were so many more changes that the '86 law made, that I can't remember, but you should do a web search before you want to say that Pres. Reagan should have vetoed the final bill!

Eric The(WithMyAmmoPurchasesAlone,IBeOnThe'MostWanted'List!)Hun[>]:)]

What I'm saying is why couldn't he have just said "this is unconstitutional" and refuse to sign any new gun law?

I haven't actually read the thing. Got a link handy?

For those of you keeping score: Harry Truman and Warren Harding were also Baptists and LBJ was raised as one.

Interestingly, Abraham Lincoln was raised in a strict Baptist family but later became a sort of agnostic.

rant on: Is halloween a satanic holliday?.....according to the satanic bible ...yes it is......one of the biggest...so whether you like what you were told ..or not...she was telling you the truth
guess you couldnt handle it....(she shouldnt cast pearls before swine...when will they ever learn) :)
the comparison to the taliban...thats right up there with pinning anthrax attacks on right wing Christians...right out of the clinton/reno playbook (third way fourth reich lesbos)
the main tennents of Christianity are 1. love the Lord your God with all your heart and soul and mind 2. love your neighbor as yourself
The two main tenents of Islam are 1. obey the word of Mohammed 2. Jihad
If you cant tell the difference between Islamic fundamentalism and Christianity (even if you label it radical fundametalism)..well there it is...you cant
This nation was founded upon "radical right winged Christian principles" but you and your ilk will soon have finished your work and have destroyed those foundations...you should be proud of yourselves..when youve rid the world of the fundamentalists Christians (but you cant only God can) you will have ushered in the age of anti christ...the global new age..the very thing you claim to hate...so rock on... Jesus is Lord..the one and only and He will be back....you are either for Him or against Him...pick a side (but you cant even do that for that was determined for you before you were even born)...so why would you even care what some dumb "Southern Baptist" said...guess you dont appreciate her 1A rights bet she respects your 2A.... rant off

Me too!

Dang!!! I've gone soft!!!!!!

Rock on, 9!!!!!!!!!!!

Well said. No apologies for truth.

RG00RED, I am also one of those "papists", but of the traditional variety, i.e. tridentine mass, latin sacraments, believe all the church as always taught, as she speaks with the authority of Christ, who is God himself. Mama was from the "church of christ", a fundamentalist oriented "christian" sect not dissimilar to the SB sect in reference.  Pop was a WOP from San Lucia Sicily, hence the catholic in me.  Bottom line, I've heard all my life from that side of the family the same lines of bs.  Problem is, I happen to think, and can look at history, in fact, I have a master's in medieval and roman history from the University of Kansas.  I always have found it curious how members of the various sects challenge the "christianity" of Catholicism as a medieval convention that co-opted "true christianity", by this meaning the various sects, all competing for a claim to the truth in opposition, and all with defineable beginnings, either from the Catholic Church or from some sect that itself defected, i.e. the Anglican church left the Catholic Church, the Methodist church left the Anglican, etc, etc.  Only one Church can make the claim with verity to having been founded by the Apostles, and that Church is the Catholic Church.  Sectarians don't like it, but that is the historical fact.  Even the Orthodox churches have a clearly defined break from the Catholic Church, that date is 1054, when Cardinal Humbolt excommunicated Michael Cerularius, Patriarch of Constantinople, for calling western Christians heretics for using unlevened bread in the mass.  He also wanted to usurp the universal patriarchy of the Roman Pontiff and supplant his own authority in the position.  This situation was cemented when french troops were bought off by the Genoese to sack Constantinople to gain maritime supremecy in the mediteranean in 1204.  This was supposed to be the 4th Crusade. Had avarice not taken hold, perhaps Islam, a gutter religion of lies that calls the Holy Trinity "excrement", would not be causing the problems it is today.  

As a note on this.  Lots of sectarians like to refer to the crusades as vicious wars of aggression.  Really?  These wars were called by the Pope to help the Byzantine empire, a schismatic orthodox empire, reclaim territory taken by muslims on one of their numerous endless "Jihads".  It was the fact that greed for Byzantine gold corrupted these crusades that they failed, not because their cause was not just.  Men are corruptable, hence the need for an Incorruptable Church, the Catholic Church, to direct them towards God.    The problem w/ the Taliban is not that they recognize no separation of "church and state", for lack of better phrase. The problem is the religion they esconce in the state.  Islam is NOT a religion of peace, brotherhood, Charity, et al.  It is a religion of oppression and war.  It's an eclectic religion combining Judaism, Arian christian elements and arabic Paganism.  Allah, for example, was the arabic moon god.  It takes some sound principles, i.e. that men and women ought to dress modestly, and covers the women head to toe in barach's, hitting them w/ sticks in Saudi Arabia for example, if they are exposed in anyway.   The principle that society, in both the Church and the State, ought to orient man towards virtue only makes sense in light of the fact that as was said in an earlier post, our duty to God remains.  

Oh my god! Lyndon LaRouche was right! -Homer Simpson [:D]

In light of Sept. 11th, it behooves man to look honestly at himself.  Take a look at the claims of the True Church, study what Catholicism really is, not the predjudiced rants of the sects who left over some grudge in the first place, come home to the Traditional Church, then line up to face the true foe that Islam is.  This war is really against the ideology of Islam, not some undefineable term like "Terrorism".  You can't fight your enemy unless you know who he is.  You can't know your enemy unless you know who you are.  and you can't know who you are unless you know and accept that which is True.
Sorry, kinda went into stream of consciousness rant mode.  

Yup, the the whole Bush family are Episcopalian (Church of England). I am nominally as well. It's about the closest thing to being an atheist of all the denominations :) GW is something of an aberration in the way he so openly expresses his faith. See the same thing from his father or any British pols?

They did start out this way!



I have never been inclined to kill anyone for speaking up for anything!
Just don't try to hurt my family, myself, or my property.



We don't want to restrict your alcohol...just don't go out and drive afterwards and endanger me!
We welcome you to have sex as often as you like as long as your spouse is willing.
I have fun all the time I just don't need any excuse [ie. drinking, drugs, etc.] to help me have fun.




You still have time to repent.




Jesus never told Peter to get rid of his sword...He told him to put it away...Because at that moment He didn't need protecting!





Exactly!



It is an isolated case!

I don't try to force my opinions on anybody and I don't expect anyone to force theirs on me.


You are trying to lump all religious people into the same category just like the liberals try to lump all gun owners into the same category.

Somebody else at your employment may not be religious at all but they may not appreciate the crap you are giving this women.
I suppose you still in the south...(although I can't see which state)...there may be a gentleman there who might take up for this lady.

Just calm down and remember that opinions are like @$$h0le$...Everybody has one.

Just my $.02 worth.

BigDozer66
                 [marines]

I have to quibble with you on the importance of charity in Islam.  It actually is an important part of the religion.  Consider, for instance, this quote from the Koran:

The giving of alms is considered one of the "five pillars" of Islam.

Every time this subject comes up, I swear I will always post the following quote from our esteemed Professor P. J. O'Rourke:

"And the Clinton administration launched an attack on people in Texas because those people were religious nuts with guns. [b]Hell, this country was founded by religious nuts with guns. Who does Bill Clinton think stepped ashore on Plymouth Rock? Peace Corps volunteers?[/b] Or maybe the people in Texas were attacked because of child abuse. But, if child abuse was the issue, why didn't Janet Reno tear-gas Woody Allen?"

The quote is from 'The Liberty Manifesto' and a speech that P.J. gave to the Cato Institute.

The entire speech, which should be required reading for all, is found at:[url]
http://www.cato.org/speeches/sp-orourke.html[/url]

Eric The(You'reWelcome!)Hun[>]:)]

Of course you know who I am.  I have more posts on the AK forum than I do on this one (if you count pre-reset posts).  95% of my posts on the AK forum are topical to guns.  And of course I don't "KNOW" you any more than you "KNOW" me.  But I do "KNOW" your posts.  I see your "profound and inflamatory" attempts at trying to piss people off all the time.  I just usually ignore them, because a child could see that you are trying to piss people off.  And when you SLANDER someone's religion, you're going to get the response you wanted.  People play into it just like you had hoped.



Personally, I think if you had made the same statements about atheists, agnostics, muslims, hindus,pro-life, pro-choice, etc., there would be sizable disagreement.  I have seen people on this forum defending the islamic faith and making distinctions between terrorists/taliban and the millions of other peacable muslims.  But no one has slandered the muslims like you have slandered a christian denomination.


That's no excuse for trying to further divide the people who are willing to fight for our Constitutional right(s).


Then is an apology forthcoming?  I doubt it.


Whatever floats your boat, buddy.  I might disagree with you on some things, but at least I wouldn't SLANDER you for your beliefs.

The old addage, "It's not so much [i]what[/i] you say as it is [i]how[/i] you say it" is very true on these forums.  Your posts are usually very inflamatory and, as they are written, are designed to get people "riled up" about the topic.  Like I said, having recognized the intent of your posts, I usually ignore them.  Of course this thread has gotten quite long and has upset many fellow gun-owners.  But that was clearly the intent your post.  Consider this another fine sucess.

[(:|)]

Post from SouthernShark -

How wrong you are even in this! You see those little icons up there on the Toolbar? Well one lets you 'edit' your post and another lets you toss the post into the garbage can!

Eric The(AGarbageCan,YouKnow,WhereItBelongs!)Hun[>]:)]

Ok...I feel the need to step in and address a very OLD misconception about Halloween. First of all, it is NOT satanic or pagan...regardless of what them satanic bible weirdos or the christian fundamentalists will have you believe. This misconception has been perpetuated by people who are either mistaken on their history, or completely illiterate on history. That being said, here's the story on Halloween...
Halloween is the shorter word for "All Hallows' Eve"...or in other words "All Saints Day Eve" if you will. This was a christian holiday that was brought with christian conquerors to the various celtic tribes in what is now Great Britain. In order to get these new converts to begin celebrating Christian holidays, and to forget their old ways, the conquerors took existing Druid holiday dates and changed them to Christian holiday dates for holidays that were similar in nature...in this case, the holiday of "Samhain" (sp?) was replaced by All Saints Day...its christian equivalent. Many of the old customs such as wearing masks to confuse spirits who might be looking to inhabit a body, and going around in search of treats were kept by the people as a way to celebrate their new holiday. You may find it interesting to note that our holidays of Christmas and Easter were established in this same way, scheduled to replace pagan holidays that were similar in nature. These are the details that are either left out intentionally, or someone never bothered to check up on them. Either way, it is because of people's stubborn hold on their own misguided opinions that the truth is never revealed.

Renamed, your point is taken.  However, the giving of alms is not the definition of Charity.  Again, so much of the debate always seems to revolve around clarifying terms.  Charity as the Church understands it is love of one's neighbor, even enemies, for the sake of God.  It is the sacrificing of one's self for the good of others.  this may mean alms, it may mean instruction, it may mean warning the sinner, any action that helps to direct another soul towards it's end, God.  This is Charity, not the United Way. Islam's Koran is a smattering of eclecticisms.  The book has contradictory principles abounding.  How is it charitable to force conversion, either by the sword, or according to sharia, oppressive taxation of non-believers until they convert?  The Catholic Church has never condoned this.  It has, however, oppressed those who are a danger to the faith.  Is this not charity?  Take the example of the heretic.  The Church has traditionally found a way to silence them, sometimes even turning them over to the state for execution.  The reasoning is it is better to punish and remove the offender than risk false ideas from infecting the common people, most of whom fail to use reason.  Doubt this statement?  Then explain the election of the likes of Ted Kennedy, Bill Clinton, et. al,?  Does this not indict the reason of the common electorate?  This is no Joke on these guys.  this is serious.  explain that?  rant off

So it's "charity" in the general sense of "altruism", right?

From what I gather, Islam is not very concerned with things like moral choices and the salvation of individuals.  The key concept is "submission to God" and the implementation of God's will on Earth.  God doesn't want your fellow believers to starve so you'd better share with them.


Here's what I think the reasoning is:
God wants all men to live as brothers.  To reach that point, all men must become Muslims.  Therefore, unbelievers must be converted by any means necessary.  They can submit to God and share in Islamic charity or they can die -- it's their choice.  If everyone would just accept Islam, then there'd be no need for jihad.

BTW, I think that one of the key reasons for the stagnation of the Islamic world since the 15th Century or so is the prohibition on charging or paying interest (an idea the Catholic Church abandoned a long time ago).  In theory, God's followers shouldn't be "exploiting" each other financially; in practice, this has stunted economic development.

How do you know there is a Hell?  And whether or not there is one, what gives you the right to be as self-righteous about your beliefs as she is about hers?  You are not yet ready to pick up the hot hibachi and leave the temple yet, grasshopper.

[|)]

How do I get my nuts blessed?

Not necessarily just Christianity but the Christian ethic that run through this country.
But Christianity is the best source of America's goodness.
The founder knew this thats way even the non-Christian founder built these ethics in the Constitituion.

Being a son of a SB preacher, born Oct 31 1956, I can tell you Hollawen has always been my Fav day of the year, (till I hit 40 or so [party])As far as owning rifles, I think I have 26 right now, most are hunting rifles but not all by far. I also have a collection of Revolvers, and we barried a Ruger .41 mag Blawkhawk with my father, his favorite handgun. My mother was barried beside my father, with her Ithaca M37 fetherwight. They were from the deep South, central FL. I was taught to shoot and ride as a child, my father was very popular in our small town. And he never tried to push his beliefs on any one including me. I did come to believe much like him but not all his beliefs are mine and not all mine were his. At 17 I joined the Army and went for the infantry, at 37 I retired. I don't see where my religian has slowed down any fun I have had, I was a hard drinking hard fighting young NCO till I met my wife, I slowed down on the drinking a lot, and stopped the bar hoping, got more into reloading.
My wife not my god slowed down my party life, and I do not mind a bit. You are lucky someone like me was not in the room, While I don't mide what you worship, I have this thing about ladies being insulted. Must be my upbringing, have a good holiday season.

Your right man! how could he do that to you,I gess he is a sorry SOB.
To hell with him kicking the crap out of the USSR thats nothing lets trash him over thins bull sh!t law..............knee jerk!

So what you are saying is that it's ok to call people scum and act any way you want and that freedom.[:\]

One good thing is you can see how left libertarians are, most of you guys don't like to talk about that.

The left(ALL OF IT) is bigoted,and this a lie to say you want freedom.
Anyway freedom with out class is nothing and you showed no class AT ALL! by saying what you did to that women.

Relgious nuts?  Isn't that some arts and crafts thing?

[i] I hate these Southern Baptist scum. They try to suppress everything that's fun.[/i]

I've gotta disagree with you on this one.

I spent the first eighteen years of my life in a southern baptist church, and we had no short supply of partyers. The last time I stepped foot in a church, the whole place was up in arms because the pastor got caught (by phone tap) cheating with two different women in the church. My senior high sunday school teacher was a porn addict. My brother's youth leader showed up at church one day drunk as a skunk, apologizing to everyone who would listen for nailing the wife of the sunday school department leader. And, no less than 5 of the girls I grew up with were pregnant out of wedlock before their eighteenth birthday.

Of course, the church I went to might have been an exception.........or not.