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Posted: 10/31/2001 9:10:20 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/31/2001 9:04:20 AM EDT by dissipator556]
I originally posted this on an earlier thread, which several of you were interested in commenting on. People wanted to know what the hell we were arguing about, so here it is: REGARDING THE CWL BADGE: I have learned an important lesson about the badge, and when it is prudent to display. Some think that there is no need for such a trinket, and that people who own these are cop wannabe's, jerks, etc., but I would respectfully disagree. Please, let me explain, and read this with an OPEN MIND: In our society, any public display of a handgun (even when unintentional or justified) may bring about panic and disorder. Too many people (at least around here) are brainwashed into thinking that weapons only belong in the hands of police officers and the military. These facts are unavoidable, and may be more or less severe, depending upon where you live. So, the problem becomes one of good concealment, while still having easy access. (When I am casually dressed, this usually means an IWB holster, covered with an untucked shirt or something. This works great 99.9% of the time for me. So far, so good). Then, we have situations like last Saturday, when my wife and I glanced two supposedly "concealed" firearms. The first was a guy with a larger framed revolver, carried in the small of his back. He was sitting at a bar stool, with his shirt pulled tight against the outline of the gun- DEAD GIVEAWAY. The second was a guy, walking by us on the sidewalk whose shirt was blown slightly up by a wind gust, revealing the exposed slide and grip of what looked to be a variant of old slab sides. Now, had I been your average joe, those two situations would have likely caused me some fear, and a possible "man with a gun" call to the cops may have ensued. I politely let the guy at the barstool know that he needed to fix himself, and just laughed at the other guy, who realized what had just happened to him. My point is this: having the badge attached to your belt- CONCEALED, along with your weapon can be a useful tool. Now, for those of you lucky bastards in Alaska or Arizona, or anywhere else where the liberal mindset does not dominate, please disregard this, as it doesn't apply. Having the badge does not make me think I am somehow more important, or have more rights than someone else, or that I am any sort of authority figure- it is simply a precautionary measure that can help to diffuse a bad situation. I say that anything that has the potential to keep your ass out of jail is worth its weight in gold. Flame away boys and girls... [flame]
Link Posted: 10/31/2001 9:17:53 AM EDT
Sounds reasonable to me. Not necessary, but reasonable. But then, I'm the type of guy who doesn't ALWAYS wear his seatbelt either. Question: If the guy was sitting at a barstool, does that mean he was in a bar??? Many states have prohibitions against carrying concealed in bars. Not sure what I would do in that situation. Don't really want to piss off a drunk with a gun.
Link Posted: 10/31/2001 9:23:06 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/31/2001 9:17:26 AM EDT by dissipator556]
You're right, here in FL, you can be in a restraunt/bar, but not sitting at the "area of the establishment reserved solely for that purpose" (drinking- or, in lay terms- "the bar." The guy was at one of those high tables near the bar, but not actually in violation of the law.
Link Posted: 10/31/2001 9:36:56 AM EDT
I don't think it's unreasonable either. I wish VA had a similar law to FL. We have a complete concealed prohibition in establishments that are licensed to serve alcohol on premesis. Problem is, we do not have "bars" in VA, so they cannot just prohibit carry in those places. As a result, we basically have a "Restaraunt Ban". This is going before the General Assembly again next year...hope they can get it overturned. As an example, yesterday at lunch I saw a guy whos dress was screaming "gun". Warm day, wearing vest, etc. Anyway, at one point I saw a badge on his belt when his vest opened as he turned. Not that I would have said anything anyway, but if other people saw the badge [i]and[/i] the gun, they probably wouldn't have cared. I don't think it was a CWL badge, I'm just making the point (I think he was a Fed, but I saw the badge from about 50 feet away so I'm not sure). I don't feel it's necessary to have a badge [i]for me, and living in Central VA[/i] because I think most people are totally oblivious to armed citizens (as far as noticing). I've had people I know touch my gun through my clothes and not have a clue. Maybe they just though it was a cell phone/pager. Anyway, just my .02. garandman, Shame on you about the seatbelt thing!!
Link Posted: 10/31/2001 9:40:52 AM EDT
Well let's see. Here in MA you have to wear a seatbelt, and a helmet on a motorcycle, but you can carry concealed in a bar, or practically anywhere except on school property or a courthouse. You can't however, own the dirty black rifle in Boston. They're looking into banning pocket knives with blades over 3".
Link Posted: 10/31/2001 9:44:59 AM EDT
VA never had these stupid laws about concealed carry until we became a "Shall Issue" state. That's when they tightened up on where you can or can't carry.
Link Posted: 10/31/2001 9:45:33 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/31/2001 9:40:11 AM EDT by dissipator556]
Originally Posted By Chimborazo: I've had people I know touch my gun through my clothes and not have a clue. Maybe they just though it was...
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The ladies to Chimbo: "Oh baby, is that a .45 on your belt or are you just happy to see me?" Sorry, I couldn't resist.[devil]
Link Posted: 10/31/2001 9:48:57 AM EDT
[img]http://users.superduperhosting.net/greg/images/concealedcarry.jpg[/img] I think that the above is the look you are looking for. Why present yourself as a target? If you are worried about someone seeing your sidearm out in public, then dress appropiately. How many cops do you see of duty with large letters on their shirts "POLICE", how many federal agents do you see wearing "DEA", "FBI", "ATF", etc? None right, that's because it's more of a tactical advantage for you not to disclose your identity and the fact that you are armed. You will be the first person targeted. And I believe that in your original post you mentioned [b][red]hanging your CWL from your rear view mirror[/red][/b]. What good will that do you? If a cop pulls you over and you are armed, let him know politely. No need to tell the world.
Link Posted: 10/31/2001 9:49:42 AM EDT
I have to disagree with you, dissipator556, for a philosophical reason. A badge is an indicator of a power or authority [i]granted or conferred by some governmental agency or other legal authority[/i]. Those of us who believe that we should have the freedom to carry the means for self-defense do not believe that such "right" comes from the government. That doesn't mean that we won't comply with reasonable (or even unreasonable) procedures and regluations on that right, but [i]the government[/i] isn't conferring some right upon us. It is just recognizing the right that we should already have. Cops, on the other hand, are acting under the authority conferred on them by the government. The badge is their indicator of that authority. Since our right isn't conferred by the government, only recognized by it, we don't need a badge to indicate our [b]right[/b]. You may be correct that too many people are brainwashed to believe that only police or military should have guns. Deal with that misconception directly in trying to educate the sheeple. Meanwhile, don't flash! Cops have a tendency to mistrust anyone who has such a badge as having a [i]phony indicator of authority[/i] when the government hasn't conferred such a "right" on you. This is just a small part of the "us vs. them" mentality of cops. The cops think of themselves as "us", and everyone else in the world (law-abiding citizens and criminals alike) as "them." That problem, also, needs to be addressed, but that is not today's topic. Meanwhile, don't be surprised if the cops come down hard on you for exercising your rights to carry for self-defense and also doing something which they may see as trespassing on their "turf", the grant of governmental authority for carrying the means for their own self-defense. A CCW badge is seen as that trespass on their "turf."
Link Posted: 10/31/2001 9:55:25 AM EDT
Originally Posted By GunLaw: I have to disagree with you, dissipator556, for a philosophical reason. A badge is an indicator of a power or authority [i]granted or conferred by some governmental agency or other legal authority[/iCops... are acting under the authority conferred on them by the government. The badge is their indicator of that authority. . A CCW badge is seen as that trespass on their "turf."
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I agree with you philosophically, but then wouldn't the proper response to be NOT to modify our behaviour (restrict our rights), but rather to educate the police??? By definition, CCW is teh acknowledgement of a Constitutional right by teh gov't. As such, some authority DOES come with it. Just some rambling thoughts here....
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Link Posted: 10/31/2001 10:05:41 AM EDT
JusticeKeeper- Please go back and actually read my post. NOWHERE do I EVER advocate openly displaying any sort of badge. I specifically said:------- "My point is this: having the badge attached to your belt- CONCEALED, along with your weapon can be a useful tool."--------------------------By the way, that's some funny shit with the vest- I think I'll order you one for April Fool's Day.
Link Posted: 10/31/2001 10:15:01 AM EDT
GunLaw, You are basically saying "I don't need a badge to confer my right. Deal with the sheeple and try to educate them." You can make all of the "philosophical" arguments you like, but the facts remain. A concealed weapons permit IS a granted privilege from a state (although I agree that it SHOULDN'T have to be). I could see the point in your argument if a non-LEO were wearing a LEO badge, or if a non-CWL holder had a CWL badge, but that is not the case. I am not misleading anyone, and if some LEO's feel threatened by private citizens lawfully carrying, then that's just tough shit. You may not need a badge to confer your rights, but anything that may help to preserve your rights is a valuable asset. Are you not following my logic, or have you never personally been in this situation yourself?
Link Posted: 10/31/2001 10:19:10 AM EDT
Good point, garandman. CCW IS the acknowledgement by the government of one of our basic rights. But by definition, it is [i]our rights[/i], not some special power conferred [i]by the government[/i] on that class of citizens who have special duties and obligations, i.e., the police. I just don't believe that carrying the means for self-protection should be one of those rights reserved to the police and the military. Those people (the police) have special powers to go with their duties and obligations. I didn't want to get into the rightful special powers of the police (let me just say here that I agree that they have many additional rights and powers). I don't agree with the use of a badge to signify our basic rights. I don't believe that is necessary. I emphatically agree with garandman that we have a need to educate the police (as well as the public). Like I said above, that is not today's topic (unless you want to hi-jack this topic and make that a point).
Link Posted: 11/2/2001 7:12:49 AM EDT
Originally Posted By dissipator556: The ladies to Chimbo: "Oh baby, is that a .45 on your belt or are you just happy to see me?" Sorry, I couldn't resist.[devil]
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You give me too much credit!! The real version:
The ladies to Chimbo: "Oh baby, is that a .22 Derringer on your belt or are you just happy to see me?"
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Link Posted: 11/2/2001 7:39:00 PM EDT
Better than a pen-gun I suppose. Posts like OneShotOneKill's really do highlight the need to be extra careful during this time of fear and uncertainty. What would have caused some soccer mom to give you a dirty look now may cause them to call the cops and/or the FBI on your ass. Can't be too careful...
Link Posted: 11/2/2001 7:45:54 PM EDT
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