Do you know of any good biographies I should read?  Some of those guys you listed earlier I'm not very familiar with yet.  Did some of them (besides einstein) work on the manhattan project?

My favorite all around scientist has been Newton, just because he was a genius in more than one area.  He practically single-handedly invented calculus, and of course his invaliable work in physics which wasn't built upon for a couple centuries afterwards....

When US was working on the first bomb, all efforts were toward an implosion device U239 - plutonium.  "Fat Man" used a rather large amount of 239 by todays standards. (35 LB if I remember correctly.)   Thing was large and heavy with extremely complex firing mechanism to get explosive "lens" to detonate at exact time needed.  This type weapon was tested at Alamagordo to usher in the nuclear age.  There was considerable doubt that it would work.

OT, the scientists took bets in the block house on whether the "gadget" would ignite the atmosphere and incinerate the entire planet!!!

While the "Fat Man" test device was being built, another device was built known as "Little Boy".  LB used U235 - Uranium.  It did not require shaped charges or explosive "lens".  Not even sure if it used a neutron injector.  The firing system was relatively simple.  It was never tested prior to use on Japan (wish I remembered which city got this one!).  Reason they did not test it was two fold.  First was the extremne shortage of U-235 which was more valuable for use in reactors to create 239 (one of the MOST TOXIC substances known to man!!).  Second was they had NO DOUBT it would work!  Lower yield than "Fat Man" but FAR simpler and easier to construct.  Method of creating critical mass in "Little Boy" was not persued because it required very large amounts of obscenely expensive and scarce fissionable material with low yield as it only converted a tiny amount of Uranium into energy.

If the VERMIN could aquire enough U 235 OR 239 the technology to make it work is rather simple.  On the other hand, if they want to make a bomb from a very small amount of material, the technology to do so is very great.

Much simpler to just disburse the radioactive material over as large an area as they can and render an area HEAVILY contaminated!   Probably less risky to large area as there would be much less fallout and no created isotopes as happens when one goes bang.  Set off a contamination type device in, say Washington DC and clean-up would take YEARS!

All the people I listed with the exception of einstein worked on the Manhattan Project. Einsteins 1905 paper on Special Relativity, his paper on ElectroDynamics formed the basis for All work done, along with Madam and Pierre Curies work on Radioactivity and the some peoples work on certain qualities of Radioactivity in Germany.  For a laymans understanding and a good first understanding I would suggest two books.

The Manhattan Project, forget authors name
The Making of the Atomic Bomb , Richard Rhodes
Any biographies on any of the physicists.

For a complete understanding this is what you will need:
Calculus & Analytic Geometry I
Calculus & Analytic Geometry II
Calculus & Analytic Geometry III
Differential Equations of more then 1 variable
Engineering Math
Numerical Methods

University Physics I/II
Statics and Mechanics
Rigid Body Mechanics
Quantum Mechanics
Special Theory of Relativity
Classical Theoretical Nuclear Physics

That will give you a complete understanding

Little Boy employed a Gun arrangement to accelerate the inner part of the Core into the Outer sphere to achieve the critical mass necessary to start a fission reaction. There was no neutron injection or any other booster mechanism in place. That didn't come along until later. When it was discovered that you could boost the reaction by a ton by injecting Dueterium into the chamber as the fission started therebye boosting the number of neutrons available for fission by several orders of magnitude.

Benjamin

Refering back to the level of education.

I don't have that at this time.  I couldn't even begin to do the mathematics.  As my Calculus Stops at II, and my physics, while undertanding the theory , doesn't even come close.

Ben

I intentionally left the gun part out but seems silly now.  Didn't FAT MAN use a neutron enhancement device of some kind?

What to read? Start with anything on Oppenheimer. Yep.

Then, anything on "the secret city" of Oak Ridge and the Manhattan Project.

Really?  I thought Bohr was pre-manhattan project.  Maybe that's just because his atomic model seems so outdated =)



I've got all the calc and am currently taking differential equations.  I think "engineering math" and "numerical methods" will gradually be fed to us through our physics.

I'm currently in the 3rd semester of physics...sort of the transition from classical to modern.  In another month we'll be getting into special relativity, and next semester is devoted to quantum mechanics, so that will be interesting.

Thanks for the suggestions.

Fat man as we have already stated, and I am sure that you already know, merely used the shape charge and timing to produce the explosive lense necessary to push the spherical core into a size whereby the critical mass is achieved. It was one hollow sphere but not in a small enough area to go critical so the charges merely squished it perfectly into a smaller sphere.  I could be wrong but I believe there was no neutron source beyond that which is liberated by a critical mass being achieved.

Benjamin

All Hydrogen bombs are lit off by a fission bomb.  MUCH more complex and requires VERY high technology to get significant yield.  I suspect the VERMIN would be satisfied with low yield device.  Much smaller, lighter, easier - but still hell on earth if you are within a mile or three.

If you have math up to calc II you should be in good shape to learn the rest.  I've found that math seems to get a little easier once you get up to about that level or slightly further, because by then you are probably used to that type of thinking.

As for physics...well, I'm only third semester but it seems to get more difficult every week =)

Bohr helped settle the issue of feasability. He played a smaller role but still larger then Einsteins who merely lived at princeton and was approached a couple of times in order to get the attention of first the Navy then Washington itself. He sent letters.  I think he held several discussions with several of the physicists.  

Bohrs model of the Atom was somewhat NOT outdated at that time, even though Quantum mechanics was around as was Schrodeinger.  

There is a story whereby a young aspiring physicist at Princeton approached Einstein in his Garden and mouthed something about how He had been thinking about it and he had decided that Einsteins work could be used to build a bomb and it is reported that Einstein chased the young man out of his garden.

In total it took over 35 years of work until they new for sure that the Hydrogen Bomb could be built. Another 5 years to actually build it.
That is misleading still because It took 35 years to get the physics to the point where they understood the concept and could demonstrate it in a Experiment (fission was looked at as a good thing and still is) Fermi's Atomic Pile build at the University of Chicago.

Benjamin

Yes I am capable of learning abosrbing the math and being able to apply it.

Benjamin

... ah, keen and correct observation!

As far as possible targets, I have no idea.  And then if it happens?? Who the hell knows??

All I got to say is this, if they widen the war they are stupid.

There are five factors adding up here; two beyond the three that I mentioned before. Everyone remember the Letter about Halloween which came from Texas??


I don't know.

Ben

Anyone know why the DOE has told 86 nuclear power plants across the country to increase security, expanded the no-fly zones around them to 10nm and 18,000 feet, and have the Air Force circling them now 24/7? The AZNG have moved onto the grounds of Palo Verde Nuclear Plant here, they mentioned on Nightline a couple other states have sent their National Guards to guard their power plants as well.  They didnt do this last alert.

Odd arrangements if they are worried about a nuclear device coming in, sound more like they are worried about someone attacking something nuclear already here.

This was mentioned on tonight’s Nightline, there was a phone call that was placed from Canada where the person said something was going to be happening down south. I did not catch the whole thing but this was all I heard. I hope it is the south part of Afghanistan and not the Southern part of the the United States. Everyone be vigilant and safe.

VINCE AUT MORIRE (Conquer or Die)

Don't think that it would be such a large effort on their part to do this.

Remember that they spent up to 5 years (in some cases) training, plotting, and arrainging the first attack. What makes anyone think that they can't do two things at once?  They ceratinly demonstrated that on 9/11!

Just have other teams working on a 'nuclear' project and roll it out shortly after the first attack - or maybe it wasn't quite ready, and it was supposed to be the first one...

If someone knows that something can be done, they can duplicate it.  Look at the 4 minute mile 'barrier' - how many 4 minute miles were there shortly after the first one?  A few as I recall.  

This is a known item - you can make fissionable material go boom... I'm sure they can put together people to accomplish it.  The question really is, when, where, and how much material do tehy have (how big)

This is all foxnews.com has on at the moment:
[url]http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,37689,00.html[/url]

I will admit that the math involved here is WAY beyond me( I topped out at geometry/algebra1).
I'm just happy I have a Kerney Fallout meter & a supply of potassium iodate for the family.
Did I mention that I AM NOT happy about this?
echo6

Yeah, I took all those classes and more. Never got into nuke bomb engineering though. I'm wondering what all my mid-eastern former classmates are doing these days. I'm sure many of them have high paying jobs at our national labs, building bombs for our side, and have big American flags flying outside their suburban houses. It's scary to think of what became of the rest of them.

BTT

BTT

The best they could do is to build a "dirty nuke"--a conventional bomb that spreads radioactive material over a city-size area.  Anything more involved requires a lot of technical capability.  Certainly not beyond some factions, but I keep hearing stories about suitcase nukes already being planted here in the US and so on and I just don't buy it.  A mass of radioactive material gives off beta waves, even when shielded.  It would be difficult to hide from spy satellites.  

And for you little boys who think we can just turn Afghanistan into a glass parking lot and be finished with it, I would like to say two words:  NUCLEAR HOLOCAUST.

If we were to unleash any such weapons on the Afghans, it's a good bet that China or Russia would bring theirs to bear on the US.  I don't think there is any such thing as a "limited nuclear war."  The prevailing winds would drop radioactive ash onto the far East.  The Chinese would never stand for that.  

It's bad enough that America is guilty of using nuclear weapons twice so far already.  Spare me the "lives saved" argument and all that.  The only reason Truman used the nuclear bomb was to scare Stalin.  It scared him all right--into forming his own nuclear weapons program.  

I remember hearing those stolen shape charges were recovered a few days later.

I keep seeing references to this supposed ability of spy satellites to detect radioactive material.  Can anyone provide some evidence that some sort of long range beta wave detector exists?  I'm skeptical because it seems to me that if that sort of technology existed that the US and Russia could easily track each other's nuclear submarines -- which they can't, as far as I know.  What's more, such a detector could be used in an anti-missile system to easily distinguish warheads from decoys and track them in flight -- but I've never heard an SDI proponent claim that the technology is available.  

As much as I'd [b]like[/b] to believe that we can track nukes via satellite, I don't see any reason to believe that we can.

The very reason the Oak Ridge National Lab was created and its location (near a source of cheap, hydroelectric power) was so it could produce fissionable WEAPONS grade uranium using the gas diffusion process.......

That's my point -- in 1943, there wasn't any weapons grade plutonium or uranium available anywhere, so we had to invent the technology to make it, then set up the Oak Ridge lab as part of the Manhattan Project.  Being able to beg, buy or steal the stuff today would make a terrorist's bomb project that much simpler.

Agreed, people these days don't need the technology to make what they want, they can steal or buy it....

I watched a special on television some time ago where they were talking about the radiation problem at the Rocky Flats facility in Colorado.  They had a satellite image which was color coded that showed the "hot spots".  The satellite was able to detect these hot spots on the surface

Tracking subs is a totally different story, especially when the radioactive source is shielded AND under 800+ feet of salt water.

Guilty!? [b]GUILTY?[/b]

It's a shame you didn't quit while you were ahead... your arguments made some sense up to this point.  

You have now spit upon my fathers service to his country! along with the service of many other men that served in the European Theater during that war.

Here is his letter home from Germany between the two events.



Notice, it had nothing in it about Stalin, or scaring the Russians.

And I [b]won't[/b] spare you the arguments about lives saved, etc... for my fathers life was one of those spared by the use of this weapon!

Shame on you, shame on you for even suggesting such a thing.

Yes, he does ramble on quite a bit there doesn't he [:)] one had to know dad to understand his writing style. Altho I suspect that some of this rambling had to do with the awesome (and I mean that as full of awe) news that had recently been received.

Damn you to hell for this statement.  

Damn ... it's gonna be a long ride home tonight.

Sorry about the tirade, fellas... but We've just been going through all of my dads letters (he's been gone 2 years now)... and this just set me off.

In reality, I just can't see how anyone can come to the point of saying "Spare me the 'lives saved' argument"

Taking a really deep breath now - and out...

Jhasz

Well put.

At this link ([url]http://www.dangerouslaboratories.org/radscout.html[/url]) is the story of a [b]teenager[/b] who attempted to build a small breeder reactor in his back yard.  He succeeded in creating very high levels of radioactivity.  But was his project spotted by an ever-vigilant eye in the sky, scanning for terrorist nukes?  No.  He was caught [b]by dumb luck[/b] when police searched his car trunk in search of stolen tires.

Read the story and see if you don't have any second thoughts about what might be going on under the noses of our "homeland security" forces.

I would have to say that Truman made his decisions based upon what the Scientist told Truman.  They told him the truth. And by the time the decision for GO no GO was made Europe had been defeated. Although they full well new the reality of both Stalin and Communists , as did Churchill, Patton, etc.  The decision to use the bomb was based totally on trying to force an End to the War.  However, I would say the secondary effect was truly show the world that it was pointless to fight any further. And it did show the Russians who at least had plans for world domination that the United States could defeat them.  They new the next war would be over communism before the end of the Second war.   And since the race to build the bomb was well underway by Four seperate powers (Russia,Germany,Britain,America) before the war ended, with everyone speculating that a bomb could be built before the war even started , the argument you give of saying the US provoked the russians into developing their own arsenal is I think wrong, it is more likely ignorance.  Just because the US was first doesn't mean the Russians were acting in a reactionary mode. They were in this race from the getgo from day one.  As evidenced from the fact that russian commanders sent men into Berlin and other parts of Germany to find Physicists,Chemists,etc, working on the German Atomic Program.  The Russians wanted the bomb as well as we did. We were just faster and their were several spies within US government that athough had no direct knowledge of our Bomb program had been getting wiffs that something was up in the USA.  And given the fact the Most Hungarian , German(those that had come to America after Hitler came to power) , and American Physicists stopped sending scientific papers in for publication during the war sent off a red flag for both the Soviets and Germans.

Benjamin

Apparently, we here in the US are under a news blackout after that one blurb on Fox last night.
But not so in Europe........it's all over *their* news.....
http://www.bild.de/service/archiv/2001/oct/31/news/bush/bush.html
So nice of them to let us know.....how typical...
Betcha someone at Fox got hauled away for that bit last night.

The 700# of charges and all detonators were found a few days later.  No need to worry about that.  I doubt anyone could bring in enough dangerously radioactive material and not get noticed.  The required shielding is far too heavy.

A beta emitter could cause long-term problems but its hardly a menace.  

Dang, now I gotta go to babelfish...

I wish my father had also taught me more of the "family" language

Thanks Hannah

From website in Denmark, These guys have much more information.


Boy that is a pretty exact number they are reporting.
40 Kg, that is over 80pounds. of Plutonium.

Benjamin

BTT

BTT

Heh, wanna decode that Hannah?

sure, give a few minutes to type it please

Well said.  It sounds like my grandpa's situation was similar to your father's.

Benjamin...your post yesterday (it was yesterday, right?) wasn't all that far from reality...

It's not a secret, but it's an awful thought.  The terrorists have got our attention, every little thing is now coast to coast news.  They don't need to do the big bodycount grand slam item now.

What would take place in this country if:
* on a given evening, at 5 different movie theaters across the country, 5 different car bombs go off within minutes of each other.  A hundred or two casualties at each location...
* on a given day, at 4 schools across the nation, 4 different teams of terrorists of about 3 people each show up at their respective target schools within minutes of each other and each empty their magazines...

The list could go on and on and on...

With the kneejerk reaction in the country, the next day all movie theaters would be closed....then all schools would be closed...until every last part of our nation from the grocery store to the local bank to the automechanic's shop is tied down with the National Guard like they currently are at the airports.

Y'know, 10+ years ago the number one terrorist was Abu Nidal.  Now the name is Osama....I imagine later it will be somebody else.  As Helen Keller said...



I looked at my baby daughter last night as she drifted off to sleep in my arms...I try to give her the sensation of security, but I'm still human and at some point she will have to be her own security.

We as a country can not give every facet of providing for our safety to the government.  Some..yes...that's their primary function.  But it is not a possibility for the government to do it all, we have to bear some of it. And even then, there will be casualties.  Let's just hope that most of the casuaties are for the enemy like Patton suggests.

31.10.2001  Bild.de News  
US-Regierung warnt vor Terror-Anschlag diese Woche
Neues Attentat droht: Luftraum teilweise gesperrt  

US Government warns of Terror Strike this Week
Threat of a New Strike: Airspace Partially Blocked

 
Washington - US-Justizminister John Ashcroft hat die amerikanischen Sicherheitsbehörden in höchste Alarmbereitschaft versetzt! Nach „glaubhaften“ Geheimdienstinformationen seien in den nächsten Tagen neue Terrorattacken auf US-Ziele geplant. Die Regierung hält sogar einen Atomschlag für möglich.

D.C. - John Ashcroft, head of the US DoJ, has all TLA’s on the highest state of alert. According to “believable” intel, new terror attacks on US targets are planned. The government even thinks a nuclear strike is possible.

Sie wiegt 40 Kilo, enthält Plutonium, rotes Quecksilber, Plastik-Sprengstoff - westliche Geheimdienste sind sich sicher: Terrorchef Osama bin Laden (44) hat die Koffer-Atombombe!

She weighs 40kg (about 90lbs), contains plutonium, red mercury, plastic explosives: Western intel agencies are convinced: Master of Terror, Osama Bin Laden (44) has the suitcase nuke!

Mit ihr kann bin Laden im Umkreis von zwei Kilometern alles in Schutt und Asche legen, die radioaktive Strahlung reicht zehn Kilometer weit.

With her, Bin Laden is able to turn everything in a 2km (1 ¼ miles) radius into debris and ashes, the radiation has a range of 10 km (7.5 miles)

Die US-Regierung befürchtet jetzt: Osama bin Ladens Terror-„Schläfer“ könnten mit so einer Bombe einen spektakulären Anschlag auf die politischen Führer in Washington verüben, meldete die US-Nachrichtenagentur „United Press International“ gestern.

The US.gov is worried now: Osama Bin Laden’s terror-“sleepers” could perform a spectacular attack on the political leaders in D.C, UPI reported yesterday.

Auch andere Terrorakte seien denkbar. Über Ort und Zeitpunkt gäbe es leider keine Informationen. Justizminister John Ashcroft düster: „Es ist wichtig für das amerikanische Volk, dass diese Warnungen ernst genommen werden.“


Other acts of terror are conceivable, too. No information about location or time, though. Said Ashcroft: “It is important for the American people to take these warnings seriously.”


Die US-Luftaufsichtbehörde FAA reagierte sofort: Flugzeuge dürfen keine Atomanlagen überfliegen, das Verbot gilt für einen Radius von 18 Kilometern. Auch für New York City gelten verschärfte Regelungen. US-Präsident George W. Bush kündigte eine Verschärfung der Einwanderungsgesetze an. Gleichzeitig forderte er die Amerikaner zu erhöhter Wachsamkeit auf.

FAA reacted immediately: No planes are allowed in a radius of 10 nm (18 km) of nuclear facilities. Harsher restrictions for New York, too. POTUS GWB announced more restrictions for immigration, and asked Americans to be on guard.

Die „Washington Post“ berichtet unter Berufung auf Regierungskreise, Osama bin Ladens Terrororganisation „Al Kaida“ habe ihre Strategie geändert. Künftig könnten einzelne terroristische Zellen unabhängig losschlagen.

„W.P.“ reported, quoting „senior admin officials“, Osama’s „Al Qaeda“ network did change their strategies. Independent terrorist cells could strike independently in the future.

Der britische Terrorexperte Gordon Thomas (68) erfuhr aus Geheimdienstkreisen, dass bin Laden seine „Schläfer“ mit Grußpostkarten aktiviert, die gläubige Moslems weltweit anlässlich des bevorstehenden Fastenmonats Ramadan (ab 17. November) verschicken.

UK terror expert, Gordon Thomas (68) learned from intel sources, that Osama’s activating his sleepers with holiday postcards, sent by many moslems worldwide, what with Ramadan (starts Nov 17) at hand.

In einigen Umschlägen seien handgeschriebene Terrorbefehle versteckt. Terrorexperte Thomas: Sie sind so geschickt verschlüsselt, dass westliche Geheimdienste sie kaum dechiffrieren könnten.

In some envelopes are hand-written terror orders; encrypted in a way that even Western agencies can barely decipher them.

Wie viele dieser Terrorbefehle schon unterwegs sind, sei vollkommen ungewiss...

How many of these terror orders are already on the way? Nobody knows for sure.

Damn....Thanks Hannah.  

Benjamin

Robbie, I don't remember which post in particular??