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Posted: 10/29/2001 8:36:51 AM EDT
Hi All , This is my question ? You hear on the news that several cases of smallpox (or something just as bad) have been confirmed within 100 miles of your home. The local govt. is telling everyone to lock their doors and stay home. The roads are still open due to a lack of local govt. responce. You have LOTS of supplies at your home to weather out the wait but you also have a "bugout" kit ready and can be on the road in less than a hour. You have a very safe place to go that is easy to defend and away from any large group of people. The drive time to this location is approx 40 minutes. By leaving you know that you are leaving LOTS of supplies behind and a good chance your home will be looted if order breaks down. There is no time to wait and see what might happen due to the fact that the local govt. is getting ready to close all roads and order everyone to stay home till futher notice. What do YOU do ?? You have 5 minutes to decide.
Link Posted: 10/29/2001 8:52:21 AM EDT
i have everything in a footlocker right now....i could throw the footlocker in the car and be gone....no problem.... now im working on getting everything into a MOLLE II so that IF something like that happens and theres no gas to be had i can move everything....alot easier to lug a ruck than a footlocker
Link Posted: 10/29/2001 8:58:22 AM EDT
Sounds like this belongs under [b]Tactics[/b] forum. Believe I'd just a booster shot as most of us older folk had the smallpox vacination as kids. Mike
Link Posted: 10/29/2001 9:12:38 AM EDT
Don't wanna ruin your day but there hasn't been ANY smallpox vaccine made since 1979. No vaccine and no booster. At least for us citizens. The last stocks shelf lifed in 1981. The residual protection from your childhood smallpox innoculation lasted about 20 years, less if you're a female who's been pregnant. Smallpox was wiped out worldwide. Didn't they tell you??? BTW smallpox vaccine is made from cowpox and I'll bet there is a massive development and manufacturing program under way right now. But it will take years to get hundreds of millions of dosages and no telling how long to get it applied. We're likely up the proverbial creek if smallpox gets loose.
Link Posted: 10/29/2001 9:51:07 AM EDT
Question....I entered the Army in June 1983. On 22 June I recieved massive numbers of shots. Anybody have any idea what they were?
Link Posted: 10/29/2001 10:00:24 AM EDT
Stay at home. The crisis will be dealt with, one way or another, within the next couple of weeks. Any movement you make will increase your chances of exposure. Supposedly, the vaccine can be administered, even to folks who have been infected, and prevent the disease from reaching fatal proportions. Since we only have 4 million doses right now, the plan being put out in the media is for any outbreaks to be contained and for vaccine and health officials to be rushed into the area to treat things. If you flee, you risk being outside of the area where help will be available. The local authorities will their act get together soon. If you are travelling, you run the risk of being stranded when they do shut the roads down. You also have no idea how draconian they are going to get with enforcing any travel bans. You could get stranded with other persons who are infected. You could wind up facing a couple of scared 19 year old Guardsman with M16s who have been told to shut down traffic, period. Risky proposition. What if you are infected? It is possible for people, even immune folks, to transmit the disease. You can also get Smallpox and transmit without ever getting sick. If you travel, you risk harming others, while putting yourself at greater risk. Stay put.
Link Posted: 10/29/2001 10:00:36 AM EDT
hound, I've got a copy of my shot record at home. I'll check it tonight to see if smallpox is on there, and post either way. This is my one thousandth post.
Link Posted: 10/29/2001 10:02:43 AM EDT
I'm gathering that where you are now you are relatively close to all your neighbors. If that is the case then this is a no-brainer. Drive down to your local trailer rental place or your local trailer sales place. Get the biggest trailer that your rig can reasonably pull. Drive home and load all of the supplies into this trailer and head for your "very safe place". Run, dude, run. Small pox is EXTREMELY contageous. Yes the gov is telling people RIGHT NOW to stay home, but what are they going to be telling you to do in one week. They may have forced evacuations to a detainment center "for your protection" of course. Or you stay home and the moment you pop some looter, you get arrested and thrown in the slammer - right now your really in a great place. The answer is obvious, take your "LOTS of supplies" to your safe place. Let the looters have the VCR; they'll be dead soon from smallpox - at least they can watch TV until they croak.
Link Posted: 10/29/2001 10:03:32 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/29/2001 9:58:43 AM EDT by natez]
Originally Posted By hound: Question....I entered the Army in June 1983. On 22 June I recieved massive numbers of shots. Anybody have any idea what they were?
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You were innoculated for Smallpox (check your arm for a scar near the shoulder). It was the one that got really sore a week later and scabbed over, and you were warned repeatedly not to mess with it, with rather vague dire consequences. If you still have your old 201 file from when you outprocessed, check for a little yellow booklet. It is your World Health Organization immunization record, and it will have record of all of the shots you were given. The bad news is that they are now saying that it was probably only good for about ten years. It may provide you with some protection, or maybe just enough to get really sick and suffer some painful scarring, but still live through it to suffer for many years.
Link Posted: 10/29/2001 10:05:55 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/29/2001 10:03:23 AM EDT by GodBlessTexas]
My family and I would stay put. It would be much easier to reach medical care from our home than our Bug Out destination. Besides, most people don't die from smallpox. They generally die from the fever and secondary infections, at least from what I've read. God Bless Texas
Link Posted: 10/29/2001 10:08:55 AM EDT
I have to say the movie Outbreak with Dustin Hoffman was great.
Link Posted: 10/29/2001 10:20:58 AM EDT
You guys who say the proper response is to "bug out" are a hoot. Bug out to where? You have someplace safe to go fom which you [b]NEVER[/b] have to come back? As mobile as today's society is, the disease will have multiple human vectors who distributed it over a wide area before the first cases are even noticed. Try to control your panic and study a little history. In the bad old days of pandemics, people fleeing the contagion were the ones who often spread the disease. Try, in your lily-livered chickenheartedness, not to make the problem worse, if you would? Those who already told you to stay put gave you excellent advice. Now follow it.
Link Posted: 10/29/2001 10:31:56 AM EDT
Link Posted: 10/29/2001 10:47:58 AM EDT
Fer ya'll that aren't familiar with smallpox, it is an EXTREMELY deadly and EXTREMELY contageous disease. Period. Look at your history books of what it did to the American Indians (wonder where they got it?). It kills very quickly. Those that aren't infected are left with severe scarring and blindness. There are ONLY two ways to avoid smallpox: first through vaccination, second through quarranteen. There are two types of quarenteen. The first way is you isolate anyone who is sick from those who are not. The second way is you isolate healthy individuals from sick ones. So, this isn't rocket science, you aren't going to get a vaccination - there simply isn't enough vaccine to go around. They aren't going to be able to quaranteen the infected people; they'll be the infected terrorists walking around. So, lets see, the ONLY thing left is to isolate yourself from the infected ones. A isolated cabin in the mountains loaded with lots of survival supplies and no one around for miles is EXACTLY the way to prevent this disease at this point in time. ANYBODY else who tells you different is just blowing smoke up yer rear.
Link Posted: 10/29/2001 11:10:18 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/29/2001 11:05:34 AM EDT by sopmodm4]
I guess I have it pretty good.I already live at my bugout destination and would just call in sick if I heard any smallpox rumors.I could stay out of the loop for a few months and it would just be a vacation to me.I have a lot of friends though that might want to come out to my place and bug out but they would have to quarantine for a coulple of weeks in a GP tent or something before I could let them get within 100yds of the "Fam".It would seem rather harsh but my kids come first and I wouldn't let politeness get in the way of protecting them.I would stroll out to their area in my Tyvek suit and full NBC gear and drop off supplies about 100yds from their area of habitaion and go wash down with bleach and detergent in the grooming stall of my stables before heading back.I may seem paranoid but it would be cheap insurance.I suppose if it got real bad and I had some people try to come out after I knew they were probably infected I might be obliged to run them off.If I didn't have children I'd probably volunteer to help in town but I have too much to lose now. SOPMOD M4A5
Link Posted: 10/29/2001 11:22:36 AM EDT
What should you do? What you always due in times of national crisis! Lock your doors and start shooting people. Don't be picky, just shoot in circles. Shoot anything that moves. Regardless of what happens you can be assured of the following: 1) Everything you've planned for will eventually come to pass exactly the way you envisioned it. 2) The government is your enemy. If they can hurt you in any way, they will. They will never do anything to help you. If they tell you to stay put so you don't infect others or break the quarantine, BULLSHIT! Run to the hills or start shooting people. It's your God given right and duty. 3) Armageddon is upon us, we are all going to die. These are the end times, so start shooting! 4) Everything is a government sponsored conspiracy. I hear the sky is actually red but the government conducts secret missions with secret planes carrying secret cargo to make it appear to be blue. Bastards! Shoot them! 5) You're always better on your own. That old saying about safety in numbers is bullshit and is intended to get you killed. That saying is a government conspiracy. 6) Always expect the worse. That's why you should start shooting now! There is no saving any of us and panic is the only rational response. When all else fails, start shooting. I've been bugging out for years. Every time I hear a fire cracker or see a plane fly over, I play it safe and bug out. I have a bug out bag, truck, car, plane, suitcase, shoes, hat, gun, and family. Everything I have is bugoutable. If all else fails, bug out and start shooting!
Link Posted: 10/29/2001 11:25:02 AM EDT
Originally Posted By natez: Stay at home. The crisis will be dealt with, one way or another, within the next couple of weeks. Any movement you make will increase your chances of exposure. Supposedly, the vaccine can be administered, even to folks who have been infected, and prevent the disease from reaching fatal proportions.
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No way! That's a government conspiracy. They want us to die. All you can do is bug out and start shooting. Panic and bugging out will save you, not the government! [:D]
Link Posted: 10/29/2001 11:26:46 AM EDT
wgunn - Uhhh, have you been taking your meds lately?????
Link Posted: 10/29/2001 11:31:13 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Sitting Bull: wgunn - Uhhh, have you been taking your meds lately?????
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Nope, because I'm certain the government has tainted my meds with Smallpox and Anthrax. I'm just going to bug out again and start shooting. What else [b]CAN[/b] you do? Damn... in all my bugoutable things I don't have a bugout Thorzine pack. Damnit. Screw it, I'm bugging out and shooting people. [:D]
Link Posted: 10/29/2001 11:35:24 AM EDT
wgunn - Everything is all right, I need for you to go to your nearest emergency room were some very nice people will take good care of you.
Link Posted: 10/29/2001 11:38:42 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Sitting Bull: wgunn - Everything is all right, I need for you to go to your nearest emergency room were some very nice people will take good care of you.
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As long as they are on the way to my bug out destination. Are they government employees? I hope not.. because my government hates me and wants me to die in my house... on fire or with Smallpox. STOP THROWING THAT FRISBEE! What's for dinner? Bugging out makes me hungry.
Link Posted: 10/29/2001 11:40:58 AM EDT
I thought that the lethality of smallpox was only about 30% of those infected (still very high). What makes it so dangerous is that is is highly contagious. Also, didn't the CDC or another agency just order 300,000,000 doses of NEW smallpox vaccine? There are only about 270,000,000 legal residents in the whole country. If there is an outbreak, I think you'll be fairly safe. But if your REALLY worried about it, go milk a cow that has cowpox and you'll be alright [:)]
Link Posted: 10/29/2001 11:49:37 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Sitting Bull: Fer ya'll that aren't familiar with smallpox, it is an EXTREMELY deadly and EXTREMELY contageous disease. Period. Look at your history books of what it did to the American Indians (wonder where they got it?). It kills very quickly. Those that aren't infected are left with severe scarring and blindness.
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Enough fear mongering, let's have a dose of reality courtesy of the CDC:
Smallpox is caused by variola virus. The incubation period is about 12 days (range: 7 to 17 days) following exposure. Initial symptoms include high fever, fatigue, and head and back aches. A characteristic rash, most prominent on the face, arms, and legs, follows in 2-3 days. The rash starts with flat red lesions that evolve at the same rate. Lesions become pus-filled and begin to crust early in the second week. Scabs develop and then separate and fall off after about 3-4 weeks. The majority of patients with smallpox recover, but death occurs in up to 30% of cases.
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Read about this virus on their website at: [url]http://www.bt.cdc.gov/DocumentsApp/FactSheet/SmallPox/About.asp[/url] In times like these it's more important that we not make assumptions or relay what we [b]believe[/b] to be true. We're all web savvy and it's easy to find reputable information. Let's not tell people bullshit like "smallpox is EXTREMELY deadly" when it's not. It's more likely to kill the elderly, young or already sick.
Link Posted: 10/29/2001 12:03:36 PM EDT
Maud_Dib - You are right, the CDC did order 300,000,000 doses of NEW smallpox vaccine. You are correct. What they haven't told you is that those doses of smallpox vaccine are scheduled to be delivered in the end of 2003 or early 2004. What are you gonna do till then???????????? wgunn - I'm so glad you took the opportunity to prove me corrct. A 30% mortality rate is considered to be correctly labeled as an "EXTREMELY deadly disease". That's 3 in every ten people dying. Look at your family; choose any three people amongst any ten. If they went from a state of complete health to death in a week or two, wouldn't you call that an EXTREMELY deadly disease? You, probably not, but others I'm sure would call it so. The other fact you left out was of the surviving 70%, how many are blind and severely scarred? You obviously have a callous dis-regard for human life, because you don't consider anything which sweeps through and kills 30% of the population to be of any concern. The population of the United States is approximately 300 million. If we were to have a smallpox epidemic it would kill, by YOUR numbers, 90 million people in a few weeks. THATS NINETY MILLION I.E. 90,000,000. You don't think that that's a deadly disease????????
Link Posted: 10/29/2001 12:28:29 PM EDT
When I posted this question I did not expect to get such a laugh out of such a serious subject , wgunn , you are one funny person. I enjoy a good laugh even if it is at myself (my post). I think you may be naive about the option of leaving your present location to a safer location if a danger requires it. Thanks for your input, it really made my day.
Link Posted: 10/29/2001 12:29:26 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/29/2001 12:31:35 PM EDT by wgunn]
Originally Posted By Sitting Bull: wgunn - I'm so glad you took the opportunity to prove me corrct. A 30% mortality rate is considered to be correctly labeled as an "EXTREMELY deadly disease".
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First off, that 30% number includes the elderly, very young and already sick. The CDC also says "up to 30%" which is a high estimation given an exposure to an "average" population. In a limited exposure case such as a terrorist attack you're more likely to get people out and about, or the non-elderly, sick or very young. They are [b]not[/b] going to infect 270 million people, so we're not going to see a 90 million fatality number... so you're grandstanding in a failed effort to cover for your misinformation. If you know so much, why didn't you just say "Smallpox has a 30% fatality rate" as opposed to it's "EXTREMELY deadly"? Because you wanted to scare the shit out of people and you probably didn't know the actual percentage of fatality. No, I don't consider 30% to be "EXTREMELY deadly". Your over emphasis on "EXTREMELY" seems to imply Ebolic proportions of lethality... like 90% fatality. [i]*edit:[/i] I should also add that you claim it kills "very quickly". Do you also consider a 12 day incubation period and 3-4 week run of the virus to be an "EXTREMELY" quick death? Just curious...
You obviously have a callous dis-regard for human life
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And you obviously have a callous disregard for factual reporting. I never said 30% mortality was acceptable. What I did say was that your claiming Smallpox to be "EXTREMELY deadly" was an exaggeration. I'm SURE people who read that didn't assume a 30% fatality rate based on your over emphasis, they probably assumed more like 60%-90%.
Link Posted: 10/29/2001 12:31:46 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Para069: When I posted this question I did not expect to get such a laugh out of such a serious subject , wgunn , you are one funny person. I enjoy a good laugh even if it is at myself (my post). I think you may be naive about the option of leaving your present location to a safer location if a danger requires it. Thanks for your input, it really made my day.
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[:D] I'm glad you took my posts for what they were, a joke. We have to laugh a little during these dire times... after all, laughter is the best medicine. Take care, WG
Link Posted: 10/29/2001 12:34:25 PM EDT
Link Posted: 10/29/2001 12:50:48 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/29/2001 12:49:45 PM EDT by wgunn]
Originally Posted By Sitting Bull: Maud_Dib - You are right, the CDC did order 300,000,000 doses of NEW smallpox vaccine. You are correct. What they haven't told you is that those doses of smallpox vaccine are scheduled to be delivered in the end of 2003 or early 2004. What are you gonna do till then????????????
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That's odd, the government claims to have 15.4 million doses of Smallpox vaccine stockpiled. Here's a link to an AP wire report from October 23rd where this number is referenced: [url]http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/news/fullstory_4363.html[/url] [i]*EDIT:[/i] Also, your claim that 300,000 doses are to be delivered in 2003-04 seems to be fictitious. According to the government they are planning to have [b]250 million[/b] additional doses by the end of [b]2002[/b]. They are contracting with seven companies in an effort to achieve this goal.
Link Posted: 10/29/2001 1:22:29 PM EDT
Originally Posted By wgunn: That's odd, the government claims to have 15.4 million doses of Smallpox vaccine stockpiled.
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The way I understand it, we are currently trying to "water down" these doses to vacinate more people if needed. The problem (again as I understand it) is that the available vaccine is old and the viability/effectiveness is somewhat unknown. And for those of you who are mathematically calculating advanced death tolls, you are failing to account for the approximately 20% of the population that is immune to smallpox. If absolutely everyone in the country were infected (unlikely), 20% would not be effected. Of the remaining 80%, less than 30% of those infections would be fatal. Given that the quality of health care has been exponentially increasing in the last few decades, I'd say that your odds are fairly good to live through a major epidemic. According to my estimates, only 24% of any given untreated outbreak would die. But the entire country cannot be infected all at once.
Link Posted: 10/29/2001 1:29:33 PM EDT
OK, I've got a question...About the current availability of smallpox vaccine...I've read all of what you guys are saying and I've heard radio and TV. You guys basically agree that there is supposed to be 15 million doses of some type of smallpox vaccine out there somewhere. My family MD and three other docs I know (one of whom is a pediatrician and ex-Air Force doc) all say there is no vaccine available to them and hasn't been for twenty years. They may all be misinformed but who's got the vaccine if it exists? And how do we know it exists?
Link Posted: 10/29/2001 1:37:01 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Arock: They may all be misinformed but who's got the vaccine if it exists? And how do we know it exists?
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The government is holding it. The virus was declared to be dead in 1972 and vaccinations were discontinued (meaning they were stopped by the government). The government kept samples of the virus in storage and claims to have 15.4 million doses in reserve. I have no reason to doubt them, but they have not yet been released to the general population and won't be until an outbreak is detected.
Link Posted: 10/29/2001 1:46:16 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Muad_Dib: The way I understand it, we are currently trying to "water down" these doses to vacinate more people if needed. The problem (again as I understand it) is that the available vaccine is old and the viability/effectiveness is somewhat unknown.
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I've also read that they are trying to turn the 15.4 million doses into 75 million through some system of dilution. Now, if these stocks were no longer effective due to having been stored too long, why would they dilute this impotent stock only to create 75 million doses of ineffective vaccine?
Of the remaining 80%, less than 30% of those infections would be fatal. Given that the quality of health care has been exponentially increasing in the last few decades, I'd say that your odds are fairly good to live through a major epidemic.
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I agree with this assessment. Wouldn't you also agree that calling this virus "EXTREMELY deadly" is misleading? I consider Ebola to be "EXTREMELY deadly", or even AIDS. How would Sitting Bull describe Ebola? Perhaps by saying, "VERY, EXTREMELY, EXTREMELY, SUPER WHIPPO, DEADLY"?
Link Posted: 10/29/2001 2:34:00 PM EDT
WGUNN, you are a FUNNY man!! That conspiracy post had me laughing something silly...
Link Posted: 10/29/2001 2:34:05 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Para069: You have a very safe place to go that is easy to defend and away from any large group of people.
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Give me a call before you bolt, I'll round up the crew and go with ya!
Link Posted: 10/29/2001 3:34:30 PM EDT
I do not wish to minimize the potential threat these terrorists present, but I also do not want to overestimate their potential abilities. You cannot spread Ebola using the backpack technique. It is impossible. Lacking sophisticated biochemical equipment and abilities, you need to import this disease in a living simian close to the human strain, such as a gorilla. Since the average lifetime of an infected creature is just a few hours, you will need to have a significant number of ready individuals, and will have to develop a technique for transmitting the infection from one to the next before the first expires, and keep this up until you can release the infection into the general population. This is tough to do! Despite some public assertions to the contrary, there are only two caches of smallpox in existence, and we know where both are. I think we should destroy them, but in any case, we know where they are. If al Qaeda terrorists somehow got their hands on some, they still have a problem. Smallpox is only infectious during the ÒpoxÓ stage, where the victim is generally so weak that he or she is bedridden. So causing a general epidemic is not a walk in the park. It will be recognized almost immediately, and steps taken immediately to minimize the effect. I don't see it as a major threat. Since we have an effective vaccine, we should not make a big deal of this disease. Anthrax is not normally fatal. Even when infected with the inhaled form, a properly educated public can avoid nearly all fatalities. This could be significantly enhanced by passing out two Cipro tablets to everyone, with instructions to take one only if a public announcement to this effect is made, followed by the second 12 hours later, and an immediate visit to the nearest clinic. There are other biologic weapons, but the terrorists under bin Laden's control are nowhere close to being sufficiently sophisticated to deal with these. The real threat is and continues to be explosives brought to specific locations by apparently unconnected groups of trucks and vans. Targets could be the Golden Gate Bridge, the Oakland Bay Bridge, one of the other significant bridges anywhere in the United States, one many significant tunnels under major rivers or even a dam. Note, however, that most dams are sufficiently strong that no one could assemble a sufficiently large amount of conventional explosives nearby, so that a small nuke would be required to take them out. I do not believe the al Qaeda has a SADM or the Russian equivalent (if they ever really developed one). Remember that the Chinese had the plans for such a weapon for 10 years without being able actually to build one. So let's not chase our tails. These terrorists can keep us running in circles until hell freezes over simply by sending an envelope here and there if we don't gain a national understanding of the real nature of the threat against us. Dr. Williscroft is a contributing editor to DefenseWatch. Table of Contents
Link Posted: 10/29/2001 3:56:10 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/29/2001 3:51:39 PM EDT by Major-Murphy]
If you live in an urban or suburban area, imagine rush-hour times a million. That's bugging out. Within an hour there will be a few broken down vehicles, panic, wheezing, coughing, sore-covered pedestrians milling about and infecting you. I know that I was innoculated against small pox (plague, anthrax, tuleria, etc.) while in the Marines. Were the rest of you former service members, too? IF you are infected with Small Pox, the vaccine with halt it or least lessen the damage IF administered within the first 4-5 days after exposure. (So said the NY Times) Stay put.
Link Posted: 10/29/2001 4:07:15 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/29/2001 4:17:54 PM EDT by rg00red]
Originally Posted By GodBlessTexas: My family and I would stay put. It would be much easier to reach medical care from our home than our Bug Out destination. Besides, most people don't die from smallpox. They generally die from the fever and secondary infections, at least from what I've read. God Bless Texas
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The fever is part of the disease. The pox themselves kill many, many people. If you inhale the virus, kiss your ass goodbye. Smallpox is the most prolific killer of humans in the history of Earth. It killed 300,000,000 people in the 20th century, during which period most 1st world nations were innoculating everybody against it. Untold billions have died from it throughout the ages. It was more feared than plague. If it gets loose (which is entirely possible because samples of it exist in labs all over the world), we'll be seeing the worst global pandemic in history. Millions upon millions will die. The reason people survived smallpox in the good old days is because almost everybody was exposed to it at one time or another. All that being said, don't go anywhere. You are better off at home. You could potentially spread the disease to thousands of other people before you manifest any symptoms. That's how epidemics start; idiots who think they don't have the illness because they don't have symptoms flee and spread it to others. [size=3]The likelihood of smallpox becoming a factor is very low. We shouldn't believe all the media hype and sensationalized bullshit and just enjoy our lives instead of worrying what will kill us next. Everybody on this forum is far more likely to die in an auto wreck or from heart disease than a terrorist attack.[/size=3] "Do what you will, just don't get worked up into a frenzy over something that isn't likely to happen."
Link Posted: 10/29/2001 4:09:58 PM EDT
...the only reason to "bug out" is radiation. (or economic collapse, but if you ain't prepared, what's the point?)
Link Posted: 10/29/2001 4:14:39 PM EDT
Stay put and write an open letter. Address copies to all MPs (or equivalent in your country) and CC the letter to media outlets. Ask the addressees why they blew your tax dollars attempting to implement worthless firearm regulations instead of addressing serious national defence deficiencies.
Link Posted: 10/29/2001 4:27:14 PM EDT
To Murph-the-Surf...Yeah won't that traffic jam be something to see! All the local idiots cruising down the wrong side of the freeway at 100+, bar ditches full of cluster-f#cks and no traffic enforcement ANYWHERE! Best thing to do is leave early and drop the bridges behind you on the way out. LOOK OUT MAMA I'M COMIN' THRU!!!
Link Posted: 10/29/2001 4:35:41 PM EDT
Smallpox epidemic would mean I would have to turn my home into a plastic bubble. Now the question is, while everyone is "locked down" how do they go to the supermarket to buy milk? Cuz Joe Neighbor that lives next door doesn't have any MRE's and a gas mask if you know what I mean. -FS Note to self: Duct-Tape, Plastic, Bleach, Extra Water Jugs.
Link Posted: 10/29/2001 4:43:21 PM EDT
[url]www.homelandsecurity.org[/url] Find the "Dark WInter Final Script", this discussion has already been hashed out by our gov't back in June I think. Their estimates were 3 million dead. Oh, takes a bit to download it, it's a pdf. file, well worth the wait though.
Link Posted: 10/29/2001 5:51:35 PM EDT
Ipschose1 , You bet I will be in touch w/ you. I count you as one of my main shooters. Hell , with your skill not a single "bubba" will get thru the line. Of course you have to help me finish digging the shiter that I never got done with for Y2K. A buddy that can shoot and dig !! What more could a guy ask for ?
Link Posted: 10/29/2001 5:59:27 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Para069: Of course you have to help me finish digging the shiter that I never got done with for Y2K.
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I was hoping that was already done... [;)]
Link Posted: 10/29/2001 7:16:39 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/29/2001 7:11:50 PM EDT by Skibane]
The bad news is that they are now saying that it was probably only good for about ten years.
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Or maybe considerably longer... [b]And Now, the Good News about Smallpox [/b] "If you received a smallpox vaccine in infancy, as most everyone did in the United Statesbefore routine immunizations stopped in 1972, your immunity to this disfiguring and often lethal disease certainly has waned. Indeed, authoritative sources would have you believe that you have no immunity whatsoever. But if you dig out original scientific studies about the smallpox vaccine, a much different-and a much more optimistic-picture emerges." Click here for full article: [url]http://www.FreeRepublic.com/focus/fr/557892/posts[/url]
Link Posted: 10/29/2001 8:03:55 PM EDT
A good, though rather technical, article on smallpox: [URL]http://jama.ama-assn.org/issues/v281n22/ffull/jst90000.html[/URL] Smallpox is a very nasty disease! The Dark Winter exercise seems to not be fully available. Apparently much of it is some kind of a secret? Afix your tinfoil hat and consider the following: Should smallpox or other infectious disease, likely viral, be released as a weapon here I think we are in deep doo doo. Defense against the disease itself runs from one extreme to the other as evidenced by the earlier posts. Won't get into that part. We are a very mobile society where contaigons can spread rapidly and widely. Public panic is likely to be severe and occur rapidly. We are VERY dependent on certain things: Transportation to move food, medicine and critical supplies of all kinds. Transportation people are NOT going to be moving around in a contagious nation; both by desire to avoid infection and by govrnment order to try and stop spread!! That means food will no longer be on the shelves, gasoline and heating oil will run out, power is likely to fail, medical care severely reduced and a whole host of other equally unpleasant things. The elderly and sick will be hard hit even if they are never infected. Just what effect do you suppose this would have? Total breakdown of society? How many years to "restore" it after the epidemic passes? How long before the disease "runs its course" and those infected are dead or recovered; no new cases occur? A year? I can be rather self suffient but not totally isolated for a year at my current location. Puts a whole new look on it from my view!
Link Posted: 10/30/2001 2:22:48 AM EDT
Does anyone know why it will take more than a year to make a new batch of vacine ? If we know the formula , which we do , we have made it in the past , how hard is it to make this stuff by the gallons ? I am sure that there is a good reason , just I have no background or knowledge in this area.
Link Posted: 10/30/2001 2:33:26 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/30/2001 3:04:45 AM EDT by DoubleFeed]
Link Posted: 10/30/2001 4:40:48 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/30/2001 4:39:16 AM EDT by MickeyMouse]
Double feed, if you live in the city you DO have a problem! If this kinda thing ever comes down it doesn't matter if you have a job as I think the economy will collapse worse than 1929. How long will there be food in the city if transportation gets screwed up? If movement is outlawed in order to isolate outbreak that will bring things to a standstill. Then what - you gonna QUIETLY starve? I doubt it. Be VERY careful how you scavenge - most people will take a very dim view of scavengers. Why can't we make vaccine quickly? Because the dumb bunnys dismantled the facilities to make it, thinking the disease was dead and gone. Poor preparedness on part of the government!! Old way of growing the virus of interest was on flank of a calf. That is now considered to be poorer choice. (Unwanted bugs and other contaminants.) They now prefer to grow it on tissue cultures to better control what they get (and DON'T get!). There are now so many people with suppressed immune systems that they are becoming a serious problem. I fail to understand why we don't produce "old" technology vaccine as soon as possible followed by production of "new" technology stuff as we are able to do so. For each product new facilities must be built, or at least existing ones modified. A moratorium on related lawsuits would be needed to speed things along. Even then, things take time! "Crop" has to grow, needs purified, tested for effectiveness and safety even if to non lawsuit standards. Tick-tock!
Link Posted: 10/30/2001 6:01:57 AM EDT
Once again, study your history. Bugging out from a contagion is like raising your hand and jumping up and down while shouting "Ooooooh! Oooooh! Pick me! Pick me! I want to be a vector!" During the incubation period, you won't know whether you are infected or not, so the idea of fleeing while you "think" you are still well is just plain stupid. Likewise, there are some in every population who will act as carriers of a disease without ever developing the symptoms. Run a search on "Typhoid Mary" for an infamous example, and then ask yourself if you want to go down in history as her 21st century counterpart. Now is the time to put the patriotism that everybody has been trumpeting for the last several weeks into action. Follow the effing instructions the gov't issues in case of an outbreak of smallpox or other easily contagious disease! Why is that such an effing problem? Do you honestly believe that the gummint has some vested interest in fostering a society-wrecking pandemic? If we assume for a moment that they even are the evil mind-controlling nanotechnocrats some of you fear, their own self-interest dictates taking measures to preserve the very society they wish to rule! Run some searches on the bubonic plague and the influenza epidemic of 1918. See what happened when people tried to "bug out" back then. It won't work any better now, and by your panic-stricken actions you will only further the goals of the terrorists with each new person you infect. Don't be a "tool."
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