I think what you are seeing is not really anything more than just the ventings and frustrations that come from trying to analyze and deal with a very complicated and frustrating situation.

We are fighting psychotics who would love nothing better than to die for Allah.  Their cause will spread because the muslim world is a tinderbox waiting to ignite.  I predict that in the end we'll end up fighting them all!  The U.S. is trying to keep this from being a religous war but with people like the Taliban and Osama trying their best to make it one what the hell do we do?  They have millions in the mideast that hate us.  Why?  They bandy about all sorts of lame excuses, but in the long run it is for no other reason than we represent a cultural threat to their 13th century beliefs.  Screw them!!!  

War is a terrible thing.  The thing that really sucks about this is that some radical Saudi rich kid has set up a puppet regime in Afghaistan and is now pulling the strings there via the Taliban and the people of Afghanistan are the ones suffering because of it.  

The last time the U.S. was faced with such radicals so ready and willing to die for a cause (Japan), we had to use nukes to win that war.  To this day there are liberal demoncrat "America haters" within America that if they could turn back the clock would gladly have traded a couple million American lives for not having had to use nukes in Japan in 1945.

This will also be the start of the slow disintigration of America as we knew it.  Rome fell because they couldn't control their borders.  Look where we are heading.

mucus, you never answered REW's question, you ever served ??

I read it also.  I know what he said.  I am asking you to formulate a plan to defeat terrorism.
Like I said, "come back and relate to the board how we should fight terrorism and terrorist. Please educate us."  In addition, what branch did you serve in?  I was in the Army.  6th ACCB.

QCMGR

Thanks for your service in the military.  Being a volunteer force, you deserve praise for serving our country.  My path in life has not involved military service yet.  

How would I go about dealing with terrorists?

We'll, I'll say that I am very proud of how the Bush administration has handled this most difficult situation so far and certainly glad he is leading our country to war not clinton.  
I agree with many strategies being employed.  Cutting off funds, forcing foreign banks to freeze and stop doing business with suspected terrorists.  Political work to build a maturing coalition to participate to find and weed out cells around the world.  Military muscle to find and kill Taliban and the terrorist network.  Refusing to bow to Osama's wish to turn this into a war against islam.  To show the world we mean business but also demonstrate how a civilized nation conducts war.  Actively seek out and destroy production and distribution of weapons of mass destruction in coutries that are immediately hostile to us (Iraq, syria etc).  Further retard proliferation of nukes from former soviet union.  Think about the root cause of our need for involvement in the middle east (oil).  Once we destroy taliban, be actively involved in rebuilding Afghanistan.  Seek out elements within our own soil that have hostile intent.  Tighten our borders and immigration policy.  

Yes, it's complicated.  I'll be the first to admit that I don't know all the answers but I know what is wrong.    

Half those quotes are from “questions from the king of Wu”.

Regardless of that, those quotes assumed that you could later use those armies as your own. Which might be the case if we were an Afghan warlord but we aren’t. The USSR learned about utilizing captured Afghan armies.

- that’s why the Taliban have about 150 Mi24 helos [:)]

I think a quote or two by Machiavelli would be more appropriate.



"is necessary to take such measures that, when they believe no longer, it may be possible to make them believe by force. "

"For injuries ought to be done all at one time, so that, being tasted less, they offend less; benefits ought to be given little by little, so that the flavour of them may last longer."

"You must know there are two ways of contesting, the one by the law, the other by force; the first method is proper to men, the second to beasts; but because the first is frequently not sufficient, it is necessary to have recourse to the second. Therefore it is necessary for a prince to understand how to avail himself of the beast and the man. "

Dont make me pull out the Carl von Clausewitz and the Antoine-Henri Jomini. [:)]

Please do.  And please find where it says intentionally target and kill innocent civilians.  Or where it says, blow them all to hell.  
The situation in Japan during WWII was nearly all of the Japanese citizens were actively supporting the war effort.  It's not the case in Afghanistan.  Many are slaves in their own country, governed by corrupt fanatical islamists from other nations.  Yes, they are the weak, they are the helpless, they are the innocents.  And yes, I do believe they are human beings.  Intentionally killing is flat out wrong.  We must go after their rulers and their military that supports them.  Not the citizenary.  

I guess it all depends on your concept of the ‘weak, innocent civilian’.

Usama said we are all appropriate targets in this war because we pay taxes. The civilians in the occupied regions actively supported the Taliban regime. Not just with taxes but with action.


 We have done nothing extraordinary, nothing contrary to human nature in accepting an empire when it was offered to us and then in refusing to give it up. Three very powerful motives prevent us from doing so-- security, honor and self-interest. And we were not the first to act in this way. Far from it. It has always been a rule that the weak should be subject to the strong: and besides, we consider that we are worthy of our power.
- Thucydides


War is not an exercise of the will directed at an inanimate matter.
- Carl von Clausewitz.



Untutored courage is useless in the face of educated bullets.
- George S. Patton, Jr.


Shall I go on?

You are right I was not in a total war, both Panama and the Gulf where, how do you say it, untotal wars? Anyway, I had a team to take care of in Panama, and a plt in the Gulf. BTW I was career infantry. Retired in 94. Now, I am a retired NCO, so not to bright, how is Afganastan toughter than Iwo Jima, or the Chossan(sp), heck Vally forage, NOT, we are Americans and we have been hit on American soil, F*** the Taliban, and kill everything that allows them to live. I had a BN SGM that had a great saying on the wall IIRC "I'm not the killingman, I'm the killingmans son, but I'll do the killing till the killingman comes!"
THEY ATTACKED US, nuff said.
SFC(ret) Rew E. Williams

Mucor,

If every one of "them" is dedicated to killing everyone of "us" where is there room for moderation? Are you willing to give-up your way of life to accommodate people who are dedicated to killing you?  What if the “nuke-em “ crowd is right?  How many of our boys need to die before we use overwhelming force to put “them” in their place?

I volunteered for military service because it was the right thing to do.  I will not diminish you for not serving.   However, I will ask you to remember while you are “taking a different path” there were some of us who were out there protecting your right to do as you please.  I say “nuke” them because I was a solder and we need to preserve a valuable commodity, our armed forces.  I say “nuke” them to protect our boys.

No_Reflex_Zone

So where does it say intentionally kill the innocents?

The bigger question is, would we be ready for the inevitable growing threat of nukes against us.  We cannot deal with this threat right now and must not escalate this war to that level.  

Do you honestly think victory can be achieved without depopulating that whole region?
I’m defining victory as: An end where my children and my people never have to worry about Usama’s son, Usamas brother or Usama’s beliefs.

Untutored courage is useless in the face of educated bullets. <- Right here

Right here -> We have done nothing extraordinary, nothing contrary to human nature in accepting an empire when it was offered to us and then in refusing to give it up. Three very powerful motives prevent us from doing so-- security, honor and self-interest. And we were not the first to act in this way. Far from it. It has always been a rule that the weak should be subject to the strong: and besides, we consider that we are worthy of our power.

and right here -> War is not an exercise of the will directed at an inanimate matter.

We are at war with a culture and a belief system, victory will only be achieved by the destruction of both.




The concept is called MAD. In this case we assure the destruction of the culture that supports the use of such weapons as instruments of terror.

Do you think that the Islamo fascists would be so eager to kill us if they were certain that it would result in the absolute annihilation of the very thing they seek to achieve?

I would go so far as to say we are too late to do anything about extremist Muslims. The only purpose this war can possibly have is to serve as an example for others like them.

I say, MAKE THEM A SHINING EXAMPLE. Something the world will NEVER forget.

I think that after we figure out that bombing
the crap out of the Taliban isn't going to
make them quit, we are going to have to face
the reality of large amounts of traditional ground forces in country.  Are we Americans
willing to see aluminum caskets stacked up
on a flight line?  Please don't get me wrong - I am not a pacifist.  I am just not certain that
the soccer mom's and the rest are willing to
revisit weekly 'body counts.' I remember that when I was in Viet Nam reading 'The Stars & Stripes.' I was in the Air Force, so no, I
did not face the enemy out in the field.
I just don't know the answer.  I just think
that American ground forces will ultimately
have to go into the caves and villages to destroy this vermin. I have NO FAITH in the
"Northern Alliance."  I AM SO GRATEFUL that
Al Gore is still a has been.  I am very proud
Of George Bush & Co.  As for civilians dying,
people die in wars, just that simple. Joe Blow,
the Guard guy- was  a civilian - get's called
up and bingo - he's dead.  Another dead civilian.  Who ever said war is fair?  John

I would like America to be respected internationally for what we do. Certainly, not everything we do will please everyone, but only the most hateful people can say that we don't do more good than harm.

But, if we can't earn their respect, I have no problem with making them fear us instead.

No_Reflex_Zone

So you do think we are ready for the consequences of this type of war.  Complete annihalation sure sounds cool and makes us feel strong and powerful.  Are you ready for the consequences of being a nation so willing to destroy a civilization?  Superpower or not, I assure you we are not prepared to handle the certain escalation of nuclear threat we will face from all corners of this world from angry muslims if we pursue this route.  We have far more to loose then them.  We are a large fixed target, they are mobile, stealthy, and fueled by growing hate of our country.  If it ever comes to nuclear escalation, I hate to say it but the terrorists have a decided advantage.

No_Reflex_Zone

So you do think we are ready for the consequences of this type of war.  Complete annihalation sure sounds cool and makes us feel strong and powerful.  Are you ready for the consequences of being a nation so willing to destroy a civilization?  Superpower or not, I assure you we are not prepared to handle the certain escalation of nuclear threat we will face from all corners of this world from angry muslims if we pursue this route.  We have far more to loose then them.  We are a large fixed target, they are mobile, stealthy, and fueled by growing hate of our country.  If it ever comes to nuclear escalation, I hate to say it but the terrorists have a decided advantage.

Fortunately for you, this society has always had men ready to do the killin for you. Without the protection of methods and men you obviously disapprove of, you would be an indentured servant in some moola’s harem or an idealistic child of Stalinism.

This nation has survived by being the badist mother on the block.

If you have an enemy you seek him out and you kill him. If someone protects that enemy you kill them first, then proceed with plan A.

If your morals won’t allow you to see what I’m talking about, think about being drafted.

Are you willing to die so Usama’s momma can be safe? Are you willing to condemn hundreds of your peers to die for your morals?

I’d rather it be them than us.

Yeah, Then nuke the damn country. [smoke]

Yes,

Our country was built on manifest destiny.  If you had your way we would still be negotiating with the Native Americans, oops I mean Indians, over the railroad right-away to the Pacific Ocean.  This nation must endure.  If it is at the expense of other cultures, so be it.

God bless America.   Maybe if you served you would understand.

That is why you nuke them now.

Gee, do you really need to have a mere civilian like myself to tell you we are not dealing with Indians anymore?  Indians didn't have nukes.  We live in a far far dangerous time where our actions can have devastating global consequences.  Inaction is not the answer but nuking them into pulp is surely not the answer unless you want to nuke and destroy any and all nuclear states.  That is the nature of escalation into nuclear warfare.  It depends who pulls the trigger first.  These are bounds that so far no state has ever crossed.  Individual/mobile terrorists pose that threat.  That is why we need the cooperation of as many nations as possible to deal with this threat.  Would we lob a nuke at germany because there is a terrorist cell there, just to be sure we get the few terrorists that are there?  

"We need moderation and accomodation in the Middle East."

Since when did moderation and acommodation *ever* exist there?

A few years ago, one of my history professors who had lived through the 60's was trying to explain hippy attitudes to us.  He said that hippies believed that if the two opposing sides would simply sit down together, they would be able to work out their differences through compromise.

"The trouble comes when the other side wants you dead (or something equally intolerable).  The hippies (wrongfully) believed that you can always reach an acommodation with your opponent because all disagreements stem from a lack of understanding."

We don't have a lack of understanding with this guy.  We have a fight to the death-- his or ours.

--------
I recall reading in National Review "way back when" about a foreign diplomat remarking, "[the trouble with]Americans [is they] think that you can just sit down with with two diametrically opposed sides and reach an agreement over lunch."

--------
Bombing these perps is not the question.  The only thing in question is what kind of bomb to use.  

When in doubt, "over-bombing" is better than "underbombing".

If Germany protected that cell and refused to hand them over for trial. YES YOU FUCKING DIPSHIT!!!!

You are either the incredibly naïve or a total moron. I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt and say your mother smoked large amounts of crack in the first trimester.

ill be signing my death warrant here, by saying that i AGREE fully with what Mucor has said.
(some probably already know that)

im NOT into GENOCIDE
we did it once, i dont think we need to do it again, for me its too ...Nazi-like.

i think most everyone has missed the point of what he has said, i dont mean to be insulting but does everyone have "tunnel vision" and closed minds?
seriously, go back and re-read what he has said, he NEVER said he was against this war or killing osama and the taliban in any form, your own interpretations have created that illusion.

ill go back to the school bully analogy, if there is a school bully taking your milk money ...YES KICK HIS ASS, beat him bad so he doesnt come back, and if he has a small band of followers they will either turn and run or fight, and then you kick there ass too.
(i think Mucor would agree with this)

but what you ALL are saying, if there is a school bully then the right thing to do is BLOW UP THE ENTIRE SCHOOL, or kill everyone in the classroom to nail 1 guy.
is this the Right way to solve the schools problems?
(i think Mucor would agree that this is the Wrong way, and is more or less what he is saying we should NOT do in afghanistan, and i believe this also)

and is the US starts tossing Nukes, then EVERYONE WILL BE TOSSING NUKES, pakistan and india BOTH have nukes and have been aching to toss them at each other, and i think india wouldnt mind tossing some to china, and china to taiwan etc.

also we can save our nukes for better targets than the millions of non-combative afghani refugees at the boarders, they will have frozen and/or starved to death by the time winter comes.

as most know Pakistan is sorta helping us on this, sending in planes to hit taliban targets, but yet a few thousand pakistani radicals are crossing the boarder to help fight with the taliban, do we NUKE Pakistan too, even though they are "helping" us ?

a few bad apples doesnt spoil the whole bunch.

Ok smart-ass:

You said, "Are you ready for the consequences of being a nation so willing to destroy a civilization?"

I said, "yes.”

You see that is what happened to the Indians.

We may have to kill them all to protect our way of life.  I have no problem with that, do you?

Ummm, mucus, you stated in your opening post that you are a "fellow gun owner", I was just wondering what your stance is on the second amendment and how you feel about using firearms for self defense ?
Also, what types of guns do you own ? any AR's, AK's or handguns ?? and do you hunt ?
just curious as to where you get your mindset from. If I were to guess, I would say you are a college student who has spent too much time on campus in madison.

Hey Dumbass, perhaps your family should have been in the WTC.  Maybe then your liberal blinders would not be stinking up this board...

Do us a favor and close your account.

Take your liberal, terrorist loving ass to the Middle East and view first hand what this enemy has in store for us.

There is no middle road, Mucor.  These animals train their children from birth to kill Americans.

You either grow some balls and accept the fact that this is an all out war.  Anything less will get many more Americans killed.

can you provide a link or some Proof that muslims and/or afghanis breed children for the specific reason of killing americans ?

it seems we had NO trouble with muslims and afghanistan before the embassy, cole and WTC attacks. and there wasnt really Anyone saying they were ready to nuke the entire middle east over the cole and embassy incidents.

if the WTC attack didnt happen, we wouldnt be over there and NO one would have afghanistan, the taliban or osama on there mind, and most wouldnt know what they were.

I think Mucor might be one of those stirling professors from the U of Wisconsin/Madison ;-)

Based on the past history of Afghanistan and the current events there, the best way to solve this problem for our LONG TERM SECURITY is:

1.  Wipe out the Taliban.

2.  Install a coalition led military government (Rusia/US/England) in Afghanistan like we did in Japan after WWII.

3.  Find a McArthur type general to run the place and establish an economy, police force, judicial system, small military force, education system, morals, standards, etc, etc.

4.  Run the place like this for 20 years minimum!  This will allow enough time for these ideas to take hold in at least 2 generations of Afghaistanis.  Hopefully it will stick this time.

5.  This plan, if sucessfull, would bring a tear to eye of even the hardest demoncrat soccer mom.  We will have helped our fellow man and whatever terrorists there are left in the world will most likely go finder a "softer" target to infiltrate.

i AGREE with that.

the taliban made the afghani people give up there TVs, radio, booze, music, education, Freedom.
toss out the taliban and show them the 21st century.

but we cant do that if every living thing over there is Dead

Well, let's see......in WW2, we were at war against 2 foreign governments. We won that war by blasting the sh*t out of both their military & civilian populations, effectively demoralizing both, and crushing any possibility of further aggression. This war is different in that it was begun by a group of civilians with the full support of a foreign government, and the rest of their civilian population dances in the streets at the thought of our women and children lying dead in a pile of rubble, so I say F*ck them, AND their civilian population. Give the US military free reign to do as they wish to the enemy, wether they wear a uniform or not. And I'm no "armchair warrior" either, damnit. I have never slain an armchair in mortal combat.

[size=5][red][size=5]WHAT??????????? [/b][/red][/size=5]
.

That is an oxymoron.  

LA Gunman,
Thanks, I was getting quite lonely here.  [B)]

    How do you figure that?

Hey mucus, how about a reply to my last post on page three ??

I would imagine that any Revolutionary citizens-soldiers who hung out with Gen. Washington at Valley Forge, Pennsylvania, during the Winter of 1777 - 1778 could certainly be described pretty much as '[b]militant right wing radicals[/b]', so I would not be embarrassed to be called such myself! And I doubt many gunowners would as well!

Eric The(UnembarrassedByOurBeliefs)Hun[>]:)]

Explain?

SPECTRE

OK, I'll satisfy your curiosity...

I am a doctor specializing in pulmonary and critical care medicine.  While I am in private practice, I have worked for less pay at variety of veterans hospitals because I believe our elderly service men and women deserve our debt of gratitude.  I am a devout gun owner and hold the 2nd amendment in highest regard.  I believe in the need and the right of individuals to bear arms and to use them if their security is threatened.  I hold this dear and have let my position be well known.
I don't hunt myself although many of my collegues and patients do.  Deer season is upon us here in WI.  

I believe that human life in all forms is sacred but I am not a pacifist.  I believe in waging war when our right to live is threatened.  I believe our cause now is just.  I believe there is a right way and a wrong way to conduct one self in war.  I believe in doing what is in the best intrest of our nation.  I believe many innocents will die in Afghanistan and I believe this is in many ways unavoidable and is a cost of war.  I believe that we should not go into this with a view that all of islam is a threat and kill anyone who is of islamic faith.  I believe this because I think we as a nation and people are just and that good will prevail.  




BTW
My collection of guns isn't that large right now but consists of Bushmaster shorty, DSA STG58, and several glocks (looking to add a walther p99).  

Well, damn doc, why did'nt ya just say this in the first place !!! I agree with you here.
[:D]

BTW, good start to a collection too

I think Afghanistan in Russian means quagmire. I sure hope we do not go to ground war.

I wonder if we could bargain with the Taliban, thell them turn over Osama, or we B-52 their hometown in one week. (Enough time for civvies to leave.) Then if that dosn't work, same deal with Kabul, and so on. Seemed to work with Japan.

Nukes, as much as you guys want to use them are off limits.

It would be super if the CIA death squads and the SOF teams get the job done, but I don't think the US has the intel right now for Osama to be captured.

Mucor I for one respect your belifes, however there is no wrong way or right way to have  a war. To the man on the ground with the rifle, the only think in the world that maters at the time is the guy next to him. Sorry but the village can't bring up my child and if its the target it dies. Every thing that movies dies. Sounds cold I know, but we never asked for the war in the first place, and they don't have any mercy for our women and chrildren. I am being very polite right now, my grandson was here in CO with me, If he had been hurt......... Well lets say it was better for me and them he is just fine, probably much better for me. I am not an arm chair commando, I am not a commando at all, I am a retired infantryman, and I'm scared for our men, but it is time to kick ass and screw the names.

Ya I know.  Too bad though, the best deterrent for countries that knowingly harbor scumbags.  Which includes just about all of that region.

I agree with TRW (incidentally, TRW, I work for the company called TRW, I wonder if you do too).  We have to take an active part in rebuilding Afghanistan.  Or else we will face the same problem 20 years from now.  Starvation and destitution will produce plenty of fanatics willing to die for their cause.

While it is tempting to say "Nuke 'em all", it isn't going to happen.  The United States is not going to use nukes (except perhaps tactical nukes) unless the very existence of the United States is immediately threatened.  In any case, a significant proportion of the population of Afghanistan is now in Pakistan and the surrounding countries.  Wiping out their kin in a nuclear holocaust will likely produce hundreds of thousands of vengeance-seeking Afghanis.

I think we have a good team in Prez. Bush and his staff.  We elected him for a reason.  Let's give him time to do his job.  We need to remember that this war will likely be long and difficult, that it will not go smoothly, there will be setbacks, and lots of casualties and sacrifices.  But we need to do this now, and do it right.

 
I can not argue with that Doc.  I just think that we need to recognize the possibility for the worse.  That the worst in man has come out over ideology.  (as opposed to controlling land)  Our reaction needs to be tempered, but in the end, if it us vs them, I want us to win.

I am still in shock and sick at the magnitude of the horror of 9/11!

I want to PUKE everytime I hear of another case of Antrax infecting an innocent American.

I hate war.  Will take a lot of crap to avoid it.  We did not start it, the enemy did, over 20 years ago.  We tried to ignore their actions or respond in a very limited way.  We let Iraq defy us, mock us and thumb their nose at the greatest nation in history.

On 9/11 they kicked us in the nuts; >6000 times.  That pisses me off, severely.

These ignorant 7th century VERMIN understand only one thing; FORCE.  Unrelenting, overwhelming force as evidenced by massive death and destruction.  As these failures and VERMIN have built next to nothing, there is little to destroy, so DEATH is all they understand.

War must be conducted at a level so the least intelligent life forms understand what is happening.  The only things these VERMIN understand is huge piles of rotting corpses.  Make Afganistan smell like New York!

I do not consider myself a racist.  If you do, that is your problem.  I don't give a crap.    Islam infests many races.  It is EVIL hiding behind religion.  It is a lie and nothing more.  I sincerely believe we must destroy Islam throughout the world.  Everywhere.  They have subverted worship of God into a worship of Satan.  They will do nothing to us in the future because we destroy them any more than they will do because we let them do as they please.  If they have nukes or bugs, they will use them to the limit of their pea brains and piss ant countries.

I WILL NOT speak Arabic or Mexican to name but two.  I will NOT worship Satan or his lackeys of islam.  I will kill any MF who attempts to FORCE me to.  I believe the Old Testament description of war is best.  Utter destruction.  Ask no quarter and give none.  Kill EVERY living thing, raze the town.  Sow it with salt (or radiation).  Make it but a foot note in history.

If we do as above, we may be hated.  We may have only a few friends.  We WILL be FEARED however!  We will not be annoyed by piss-ant countries nor harrassed by a false religion.  We will be free of terrorism, at least on the large scale.  We will be feared; enemies will quake with gut wrenching fear when even THINKING of opposing us.  We may have to kill a few hundred thousand every few years but will put an end to this crap.  The world population will be smaller as well, a good thing.

We have tried the feel good experiments.  VN, Korea and so many more.  They have all failed.  Every one.  It is time to return to proven success - total war, use of all weapons at our disposal, total destruction, total surrender by the enemy.  We must grow hard, have ZERO compassion for an immoral enemy, be willing to kill every man woman and child of him.  Anything less will see our families, our children and our way of life dead.  

I reject that.

I'd be interested in if you have ever saw war?  Because that did'nt make any sense, you'd understand that if you had seen it.  Forget trying to figure it out you never will, that's why if you were running this country we would [b]definitely[/b] lose.  Christ I hope the muslims get your family next, then you might see the light.  You gotta be mad to fight, to win.

Right on!!!!!!!! I could not have said it better myself.[beer]

Let ME answer your question : Back where we should be, acting like a friggin superpower.  Maybe you have forgotten that the AMERICAN men and women who came before you sacrificed much to give all of us the lives we enjoy.  "get into the 21st century" -  how about "we must study history or we are doomed to repeat it".  I, for one, am tired of subsidizing countries that are hell bent on attacking my country, or spend their time talking trash about that "evil western devil".  Call me an isolationist, but I just don't give a rats ass about these people.  We send billions of dollars in aid to people who hate us, we pay the lions share of the bill for the United Nations so they can sit around and decide what "our" policy should be,  and we worry about the civilian casualties of a people that has openly attacked us!  Are we out of our minds!!  NUKE'M, HELL YEAH!!!  It's about time we let them feel the wrath of a GOD fearing nation.[-!-]

Mucor, What has been stated publicly by Casper Wienberger is this(alhough not a existing head of state). If the Taliban hide in mosques, they will be killed in mosgues. If the Taliban hide in schools they will be killed in schools. If the Taliban hide in urban ares they will be killed in urban areas.  They can find no refuge in hiding among civilians because we will kill the civilians in order to kill the Taliban.  This line of thought is being put forth by the US government world wide. And it will be eccepted by the Muslim community.  It could be worse. And they know it.  We could just wipe out the entire middle east, and they know that. You see we have been attacked, and not only that but we have had weapons of mass destruction used upon us.  This gives the Americans all the leverage they will ever need in order to prosicute this war.  So it is being made clear with apologies that ,"We are sorry if innocence are killed but the Taliban were hiding under them." That is a wise course of action , because the sooner they figure out that they can't hide behind their own populace the sooner they will stop. So lives will be saved in the long run.  It is interesting that they are not hiding in their caves?  Do they not feel as if their caves are safe?? Are their caves safe?? If they are hiding behind their own population perhaps there is a reason. Is this there last line of refuge, it would certainly be mine if I were one to hide.

Ben