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Posted: 10/16/2001 6:44:07 AM EDT
Just returned home to WA state after doing some National Guard stuff in Minnesota. The Strike there is now over. First, I would like to say that the State workers certainly picked a shitty time to go on strike. From what I understand they are some of the highest paid state workers in the US. Second, when the Guard was called out to go to Veterans homes, and old folks homes to care for these people the strikers on the picket lines harassed Guard members calling them trators for crossing the picket lines. A guy had the tires of his POV slashed. They even went as far as laying an American flag on the ground in the driveway so the bus carrying Guard workers in could not make it in the place (driver would not drive over it). I must say, the last two weeks have certainly confirmed my opinions of Unions. Gotta get the number of dollars you wanted on that annual raise no matter of the timing or what else is going on in the US. Aviator [img]www.dredgeearthfirst.com/aviator.gif[/img]
Link Posted: 10/16/2001 6:50:44 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/16/2001 6:49:25 AM EDT by Aviator]
A link... At care home, vets praise Guard, skirmish with officials Warren Wolfe Star Tribune Published Oct 9 2001 Chris Dellwo says care for the 182 residents at the Minnesota Veterans Home in Hastings has never been so good. "Hey, we're getting better meals, better cleaning, better grounds work than we ever got before," said Dellwo, 50, a onetime homeless Vietnam vet who came to Hastings in 1999 during intense treatment for leukemia and now heads the resident council. In place of more than 60 striking workers at the board and lodging home, a dozen National Guard members in uniform and scores of state employees on temporary assignment are tending to the veterans, all of whom have some medical problems. While Dellwo spends some time monitoring the strike, and a lot more following the war against terrorism, he and the resident council also are having a skirmish with officials who run the 100-year-old facility over complaints about upkeep and amenities. "The Guards are great. They treat us with respect -- something we don't always get here," Dellwo said Monday as he gave a tour of the facility. "We're getting much better care now from them and the other state workers." In his office, administrator Charles Cox cringed as he heard that description. "Aw, geeze, I don't want to see that in the paper," he said. "Part of it, though, is that any time there are new faces in a facility, it kind of lifts people up. And there's no question: The Guard does respect the veterans, and they show it." [url]http://www.startribune.com/stories/1601/744650.html[/url] Aviator [img]www.milpubs.com/aviator.gif[/img]
Link Posted: 10/16/2001 7:01:58 AM EDT
Unions are a necessary evil. Sometimes more than others. Although they are sometimes needed they usually serve to drive a wedge between the company and employees. Some unions are needed more than others. But you usually get some assholes in charge that squander your money away on hookers and liquor. Hey, where do I sign up [:D] The problem you were running into wasn't necessary that of having a union. It was the implementation and the trouble of not having a complete union. The animosity of scabs is what causes most problems. Otherwise the union would have total control and just put the companies out of business. But for every example you can find of where a Union is abusing its power, you can find another example of where you need one cause a company is abusing its employees. But in this case they should have just knee-capped some of these assholes.
Link Posted: 10/16/2001 7:03:38 AM EDT
There will always be extremists in any group. Case in point... when I was on strike last year, we peacefully walked our strike lines and chatted on a friendly level with the local police every day. Up North, union members were a lot more combative and had an adversarial role with the cops right off the bat. As far as union members getting paid better than most and having good benefits... how do you think they got their salary and benefits to that level? By sticking together and negotiating as a unit with the employer. Period.
Link Posted: 10/16/2001 7:06:51 AM EDT
Self-serving commies.
Link Posted: 10/16/2001 7:10:49 AM EDT
#1, I [b]do not[/b] consider myself a "Scab". I think that the already well paid people who would use the patients at the veterans home as "hostages" to get even more money are the scum of the earth. #2 I know people who worked cleaning buildings that make more money than some of my full time computer techs. Not saying that a janitor is not a good job, but you gotta realize that there is a limit to what the pay should be in an un-skilled job like that. Aviator [img]www.milpubs.com/aviator.gif[/img]
Link Posted: 10/16/2001 7:11:42 AM EDT
They even went as far as laying an American flag on the ground in the driveway so the bus carrying Guard workers in could not make it in the place (driver would not drive over it).
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That's not right. [pissed]
Link Posted: 10/16/2001 7:12:55 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/16/2001 7:10:06 AM EDT by Aviator]
Man, being called a scab for helping our nations veterans last week REALLY pissed me off. Both here and when I was going in to take care of those people. Some people need to re-think their priorities. And DO NOT even let me get started on the UPS and fed ex delivery people that would not deliver the packages containing medication and such to the Vets home because they were members of a Union also and did not want to cross some other Unions Picket line. What a waste. Aviator [img]www.milpubs.com/aviator.gif[/img]
Link Posted: 10/16/2001 7:36:00 AM EDT
It was just in the local paper (St. Paul) that the striking workers LOST more money than they will make with their new 'union negotiated' increase. Seems like the only winner here will be the union. I have to agree with you Avaitor-I just can't see someone who barely(or did not) finish high school demanding 25 bucks an hour for his/her unskilled labor wage that the union 'negotiated' One other instance-coke workers go on strike and put out ads begging people NOT to drink coke until the contract is negotiated. I just fail to see how someone/group can specifically target and try to take away business from their own company...just don't seem right. As far as their wages-they are higher than many states, but still lower than non-state jobs. The real difference in benifets-fully funded by the state.
Link Posted: 10/16/2001 8:47:09 AM EDT
Originally Posted By retrodog: Unions are a necessary evil.
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I think the ability to form a union is a necessary evil. Unions serve to counter bad management. I've spent over 20 years working for a Fortune 500 manufacturing company that is nearly union-free. Most of our competitors have union contracts in their plants. The way we stay union free is to provide a safe workplace and to uniformly and consistently apply the rules. Most all our employees do not see the benefit of paying union dues to a bargaining agent to get what they are already getting. Of course we (management) exercise good union avoidance techniques such as never agreeing to a dues checkoff. Many people complain about unions, particularly the contract language that permits inefficiencies such as "feather-bedding" and work rules limiting productivity. But you know what? Everything in a labor contract has been agreed to by management. If it's a bad deal, why does management agree to it? The most fertile industry for union growth is government. Why? No competition. Unions and bad management have contributed to the decline of vertically integrated steel manufacturers, railroads, mining, and other basic industries. If bargaining agents like the UAW, UMW, etc. are to survive they have to refocus on making workplaces safer, enhancing productivity, helping management compete in a global market, and dropping the idea of "job security." One of the things that 9/11 is going to result in is a reminder that there is no such thing as job security (unless you work for the government).
Link Posted: 10/16/2001 9:23:50 AM EDT
And DO NOT even let me get started on the UPS and fed ex delivery people that would not deliver the packages containing medication and such to the Vets home because they were members of a Union also and did not want to cross some other Unions Picket line.
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UPS drivers are Teamsters, but Fed Ex isn't unionized (at least not nationally).
Link Posted: 10/16/2001 9:49:02 AM EDT
Of what union or local have you ever actually held membership, [b]Aviator[/b]? That's kind of what I thought. Later, no load.
Link Posted: 10/16/2001 10:16:48 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/16/2001 10:12:09 AM EDT by Aviator]
Originally Posted By Jim_Dandy: Of what union or local have you ever actually held membership, [b]Aviator[/b]? That's kind of what I thought. Later, no load.
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Had the chance to join when I WAS an employed by the State of Minnesota. Most of the Military techs (as well as myself) declined. I don't need a union to keep my job or benifits. If I don't like what I am getting paid I'll get another job. I imagine you would have been one of the asses tossing the flag in the road eh? Anything to win the battle against the greedy management? Aviator [img]www.milpubs.com/aviator.gif[/img] Edited to say if I WERE a member of a union, and I saw crap like what I saw last week I sure as shit would not be proud of it.
Link Posted: 10/16/2001 10:18:40 AM EDT
Where I work, most of the rest of the corporation is union but our division is not. Our management had been led by a real prick and his totalitarian micro-management style had driven just about everyone to the brink. Plus he was a prick. Understand that our city has consistantly outperformed every other city in our division, both before and during the era of the prick director. I was always amazed that performance remained so high despite him. The hourly people finally had enough and organized and threatened upper management to go union unless they got the asshole out of there. The higher ups came to the city, interviewed everyone and seemed shocked at the horrible morale and the consistant stories told by the folks. Alas, word came down that the prick was going to be sent to sensitivity training and be put on "probation". The uppers were calling their bluff. This really pissed everyone off so the next week a bunch of union sign-up cards were left around the office. When word of that got back to the uppers, they came back to the city, re-assigned the prick and two of his closest associates and replaced them with managers from other nearby cities. The union move had been abated much to the relief of both management, professional (my group), and hourly employees. The replacement managers were more than happy to come here due to the reputation of our employees and their performance history. The serious threat of union representation served more than the union itself ever could. Luckily the new management is working out great, everyone is happy, and our jobs are secure. We even got the coffee machine and other amenities back that had been removed by the prick. He, nowadays, is in another state in a job where he has no underlings. He's lucky to be working at all. His management career is ruined, at least with this company. Bottom line, unions are necessary. And they are very powerful as evidenced by the reaction I saw by corporate types when faced with the prospect of having to deal with the CWA. If corporations would just treat people right to begin with, there would be no need for unions. I'm just glad I don't have to belong to one.
Link Posted: 10/16/2001 10:27:42 AM EDT
You can't lump all Unions together, just as you can't lump all "gun nuts" or "minorities," etc., together. The minute you generalize, you expose yourself as a very narrow-minded individual. I could for example, explain to you how much a certain union has done for Aviation safety, but you probably wouldn't listen. BTW, I'm certainly no Jimmy Hoffa. Unions often get carried away, and I am very active in denouncing any support they give to Liberal Democrats. The truth remains though, that in the cutthroat civilian world, they are needed.
Link Posted: 10/16/2001 10:42:06 AM EDT
I joined the union of UMWA because it was the right thing to do at the time. The management at this mine has sucked for awhile and I always thought that getting along with everyone, (especially supervisors) would protect me. I didn't attend a company meeting one morning because I was scheduled for a emergency dental appointment for a shattered tooth. Was given a warning slip for not attending the (now it's a mandatory meeting) and was told, that I could reschedule my dental appointment. Like I could of really waited approx. 2 months more. Co-worker was given 2 days off without pay. I figured any company that would deny an employee medical service or punish them because of it, needed union representation. I have worked 14 years for this coal mine with my work record consisting of 14 years perfect attendance, not 1 write-up except the above mentioned. So, I get treated like sh!t because they can treat their people like that. I'm not advocating unions are for everyone and I thought I'd be the last person to join, but when management acts likes this, had no choice but to join.
Link Posted: 10/16/2001 10:52:33 AM EDT
Had the chance to join when I WAS an employed by the State of Minnesota. Most of the Military techs (as well as myself) declined. I don't need a union to keep my job or benifits. If I don't like what I am getting paid I'll get another job.
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So it'd be fair to say that you're wholly unqualified to comment, yes or no? I've spent a fair amount of time around airports and aviation types through previous employment. I've been a pasenger on jetliners. My Grandad was an Army aviator during WWII and an Uncle was an Army aviator from Viet Nam until his retirement in 1996. I had some airdale types riding a ship I was on once in the Navy. I have never been a pilot. Would it or would it not be untoward of me to also expound upon my thoughts of pilots as being arrogant assholes based upon my experiences? Surely I am at least as qualified to comment on that as you are on unions. Fair or unfair? Lastly, it's often bandied about as to, "Why don't you get involved and make a difference if it bothers you?" Well? Why not? Unless you have a good answer, and you don't nor will you, it's time for you to lay off this subject. Later, no load.
Link Posted: 10/16/2001 10:58:56 AM EDT
i dont know about all union organizations,but trade unions are a very good way to make an honest living with good benefits and good pay for skilled craftsman.ive said it once and ill say it again "born american,union till i die"
Link Posted: 10/16/2001 11:11:12 AM EDT
Originally Posted By BillofRights: You can't lump all Unions together, just as you can't lump all "gun nuts" or "minorities," etc., together. The minute you generalize, you expose yourself as a very narrow-minded individual. I could for example, explain to you how much a certain union has done for Aviation safety, but you probably wouldn't listen.
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Not at all, very valid point. The Union I saw this last week though made me ashamed to be an American. Too often I see Union members following the party line even if it tramples their freedoms in the long run. Yes, some management treats workers like crap, but that is by far the exception , not the rule these days. There are SO many labor laws now that you would rarely need a union to protect your job. As far as a union doing g for aviation safety, not sure. I am Military. I suppose there is. Aviator [img]www.milpubs.com/aviator.gif[/img]
Link Posted: 10/16/2001 11:19:21 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Jim_Dandy: So it'd be fair to say that you're wholly unqualified to comment, yes or no?
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Not at all. I don't need to live in Afganastan to see how fucked up it is and make a decision do I?
I've spent a fair amount of time around airports and aviation types through previous employment. I've been a pasenger on jetliners. My Grandad was an Army aviator during WWII and an Uncle was an Army aviator from Viet Nam until his retirement in 1996. I had some airdale types riding a ship I was on once in the Navy. I have never been a pilot. Would it or would it not be untoward of me to also expound upon my thoughts of pilots as being arrogant assholes based upon my experiences? Surely I am at least as qualified to comment on that as you are on unions. Fair or unfair?
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As a matter of fact, it is fair. The differance is that I am not going to take offense to that statement. My skin is thicker than yours I guess. Just because a lot of pilots are assholes (in your opinion)does not make me one. Just as Most Unions (in my opinion) are bad, does not make yours bad. And until you see the kind of bullshit I saw Union members doing last week you really have no idea what I am talking about.
Lastly, it's often bandied about as to, "Why don't you get involved and make a difference if it bothers you?" Well? Why not? Unless you have a good answer, and you don't nor will you, it's time for you to lay off this subject.
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What do you think this is? I AM pointing out what I think are big problems with unions, as I have done on here before. Just because I am not a member does not mean I cannot change things, or be involved. I don't have to be an NRA member to change peoples minds about gun control do I? Or maybe in your opinion, the union is a club, and unless you are in it you cannot have an opinion or do something about what you think is wrong or right within them. Aviator [img]www.milpubs.com/aviator.gif[/img]
Link Posted: 10/16/2001 11:25:02 AM EDT
Originally Posted By pipefitter: i dont know about all union organizations,but trade unions are a very good way to make an honest living with good benefits and good pay for skilled craftsman.ive said it once and ill say it again "born american,union till i die"
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But Do not a lot of these unions twist arms and make it so ONLY union members can work certain jobs? That smells of price fixing or monopoly. Also seems a bit like discrimination. Aviator [img]www.milpubs.com/aviator.gif[/img]
Link Posted: 10/16/2001 11:29:57 AM EDT
Unions are just for people who do not have the employable worth to negotiate thier own salary/benifits. They can be replaced in a moment and they know it. They need a better skill set. I will choose when/where I work and for how much compensation. If I am not happy I move on. What part of Com-Union-Ism don't you understand. It brings all workers in the collective down to the lowest worker.
Link Posted: 10/16/2001 11:39:01 AM EDT
What do you think this is? I AM pointing out what I think are big problems with unions, as I have done on here before. Just because I am not a member does not mean I cannot change things, or be involved. I don't have to be an NRA member to change peoples minds about gun control do I? Or maybe in your opinion, the union is a club, and unless you are in it you cannot have an opinion or do something about what you think is wrong or right within them.
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So you'd rather be on the outside pissing in? I've got news for you, no load, the AFL-CIO doesn't waste any time worrying about your opinion. You're not a member and you're not qualified to comment because you cannot tell how a union has hurt or benefited you. What is the point of your inane bitching? A union will keep its course and move on, with or wothout you. Instead of getting on board and working to change what you perceive as a slight to your delicate sensibilities, you've taken the slacker-no load approach: piss and moan. Unless you intend to join and get involved, you have no room for complaint. [b]IF YOU DON'T VOTE, DON'T BITCH.[/b] Later, no load.
Link Posted: 10/16/2001 11:58:47 AM EDT
ok aviator this is how it works, i work for a union contractor that bids on work based on my wages benefits and his profit. there are other non union companys bidding on the same, if we get the contract as opposed to the non union contractor, then we perform the work with expert quality and the contractor makes money i make money everyone is happy. if a nonunion worker wants a job with us it is not possible, because he is not a member and it would be illegal to hire him.no one gets a broken arm no favorites are played, there is no greedy mobster in the backalley waiting to be paid, its that simple.
Link Posted: 10/16/2001 12:05:44 PM EDT
furthemore if a non union worker feels he is being discrimanated, all he has to do is play by the rules, pay his dues ,and prove his skills as a craftsmen, and he will be welcomed into the brotherhood.its not some evil incarnation it is just a group of like minded individuals working for the good of all. whats wrong with that?
Link Posted: 10/16/2001 12:41:36 PM EDT
So you'd rather be on the outside pissing in? I've got news for you, no load, the AFL-CIO doesn't waste any time worrying about your opinion. You're not a member and you're not qualified to comment because you cannot tell how a union has hurt or benefited you. What is the point of your inane bitching? A union will keep its course and move on, with or wothout you. Instead of getting on board and working to change what you perceive as a slight to your delicate sensibilities, you've taken the slacker-no load approach: piss and moan. Unless you intend to join and get involved, you have no room for complaint. IF YOU DON'T VOTE, DON'T BITCH.
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Get a life. Just because you are in one does not mean I need one. Why would I want to join one? I do just fine by myself. You know, if an employer shits on me, I move on. It's called taking care of yourself. I don't NEED others to protect me. And as far as me not having any say so, because I am not IN your group, thats bullshit. It does not have to be the union leadership who I effect. It can be any one of a long list of others. Your retoric sounds liek communism to me. "You must be in the party to move ahead", "The Party will protect you". Sheesh. Stand back and look at what you are saying. Aviator [img]www.milpubs.com/aviator.gif[/img]
Link Posted: 10/16/2001 12:45:05 PM EDT
Originally Posted By pipefitter: furthemore if a non union worker feels he is being discrimanated, all he has to do is play by the rules, pay his dues ,and prove his skills as a craftsmen, and he will be welcomed into the brotherhood.its not some evil incarnation it is just a group of like minded individuals working for the good of all. whats wrong with that?
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This is where our opinions differ. I might be the best pipefitter in the world, but I need to join a union to get a good job or keep from being descriminated against??? You just made my argument. To me thats a bullshit way of doing business. Aviator [img]www.milpubs.com/aviator.gif[/img]
Link Posted: 10/16/2001 12:45:20 PM EDT
Just because you are in one does not mean I need one. Why would I want to join one? I do just fine by myself. You know, if an employer shits on me, I move on. It's called taking care of yourself. I don't NEED others to protect me. And as far as me not having any say so, because I am not IN your group, thats bullshit.
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I don't recall asking you to join anything. You are bitching about something in which you have absolutely no experience and refuse to get involved. Of what local have you been a voting member? [b]IF YOU DON'T VOTE, DON'T BITCH.[/b] Later, no load.
Link Posted: 10/16/2001 12:57:24 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Jim_Dandy: Of what local have you been a voting member? IF YOU DON'T VOTE, DON'T BITCH.
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Let me get this straight: we're not allowed to have or express an opinion on anything we haven't directly experienced? Oh wait, Aviator was telling us about what he actually saw while he was there. So if it wasn't him laying the US flag on the deck in front of the bus, he doesn't get to comment on it? Or have I got this all wrong?
Link Posted: 10/16/2001 12:59:44 PM EDT
no aviator you dont have to join a union to get a good job ,but you do have to join a union to get my good job. your argument is foolish if you want what i got all you have to do is play by the rules dont hate the player hate the game.
Link Posted: 10/16/2001 1:08:05 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/16/2001 1:04:06 PM EDT by Aviator]
Originally Posted By Jim_Dandy: I don't recall asking you to join anything. You are bitching about something in which you have absolutely no experience and refuse to get involved. Of what local have you been a voting member? IF YOU DON'T VOTE, DON'T BITCH.
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So, if I am not a [b]Union Member[/b], then I have no opinion or right to say anything about the Union? Sounds like the Nazis. ever hear of the 1st Amendment? are you a member of AAAA? If not, you have no right to bitch about the Army. Thats just the kind of bullshit you are trying to pull and that dog don't hunt. Aviator [img]www.dredgeearthfirst.com/aviator.gif[/img]
Link Posted: 10/16/2001 1:15:26 PM EDT
Originally Posted By pipefitter: no aviator you dont have to join a union to get a good job ,but you do have to join a union to get my good job. your argument is foolish if you want what i got all you have to do is play by the rules dont hate the player hate the game.
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So, in order for me to work the same type job as you, in the place you do it, I have to be in the union? Am I not understanding this, if I am wrong please let me know. If I am right, then I think it is a crock. What if I don't WANT to join? If I cannot get a job in a certain place because I am not a member, and I am as skilled as others who work there that smells fishy to me. Aviator [img]www.milpubs.com/aviator.gif[/img]
Link Posted: 10/16/2001 2:11:50 PM EDT
A no load with little professional experience and no current or past union membership. You're unwilling to get involved except to piss and moan. What is your purpose of posting, aside from whining? When you become a voting member of a union or a local, then you may have a point. Until then, [b]IF YOU DON'T VOTE, DON'T BITCH.[/b] Until your next moment of brilliance, no load. P.S. I don't bitch about the Army. Shall I start?
Link Posted: 10/16/2001 2:16:05 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Jim_Dandy: A no load with little professional experience and no current or past union membership. You're unwilling to get involved except to piss and moan. What is your purpose of posting, aside from whining? When you become a voting member of a union or a local, then you may have a point. Until then, [b]IF YOU DON'T VOTE, DON'T BITCH.[/b] Until your next moment of brilliance, no load. P.S. I don't bitch about the Army. Shall I start?
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I guess that means no.
Link Posted: 10/16/2001 2:27:13 PM EDT
Aviator basically Jim resorts to acting juvenile most of the time, and would be the first to decry something that didn’t help him. I often wonder about him.
Link Posted: 10/16/2001 3:17:04 PM EDT
Aviator basically Jim resorts to acting juvenile most of the time, and would be the first to decry something that didn’t help him. I often wonder about him.
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And how is it you know me? Another no load.
Link Posted: 10/16/2001 3:26:43 PM EDT
I hate unions, they make my eyes water. oh... ok, Hey, Jim... I'm not a member of the Governement, or of the ATF, but I complain about them all of the time. Is there anything you belong to besides your particular communist worker's org.? We'll make a list, and hereafter confine you to bitching about organizations you belong to. Oh, and just for the record. Unions have their place, when they attempt to maintain worker's saftey, or convince employers that a standard wage is higher than what they pay, howeven, their place is not in determining pay or defending jobs. The bosses aren't stupid, when it comes time to cut jobs, they'd keep the industrious, and fire, the lazy-if it were up to them. Unions force companies to keep the crappy employees, and repress the advancement and rewarding down the excellent ones. Juggernaut
Link Posted: 10/16/2001 3:34:32 PM EDT
It's a bitch being a Conservative Patriot employed by a company that requires a union to keep it in check. I cannot and do not support the position of the union 99.9% of the time, yet, I'm forced to "belong". Yuck. And, here we go, it's contract time... I "do it for the children---mine".
Link Posted: 10/16/2001 3:44:37 PM EDT
I'm not a member of the Governement, or of the ATF, but I complain about them all of the time.
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And I assume you vote, right? If you didn't vote, then I would say that you really have no place to bitch. A union can be handled just like any other group of politicians by voting and lobbying. No load doesn't belong, has never belonged, doesn't want to belong and wants to make no effort to change something that he finds offensive. This brings me to ask, What is the purpose of this inane bitching? What do you hope to accomplish? You don't like unions, so what? You're wholly unqualified to be any kind of authority so let it go. And again, [b]IF YOU DON'T VOTE, DON'T BITCH.[/b]
Link Posted: 10/16/2001 3:52:37 PM EDT
I have been a union worker most of my working life - I am 56. I guess I have mixed feelings about them. I was once a local president for a couple of years - a very frustrating job, as every member wanted THEIRS, and screw everybody else. I do think unions have their place, however. Unions grow as companies get greedier and nastier towards their employees. If collective bargaining worked properly, there would be no need for unions. Unfortunetely, companies are greedy, and the ceo's get the moon at the expense of workers, in some cases. One new trend is for companies to go back and take away from RETIRED workers - to me that is criminal. John H Osterholm
Link Posted: 10/16/2001 4:08:16 PM EDT
I go to a local community college here in the great state of Minnesota and everyday the union employees at my school PEACEFULLY walked the picket line as is their right. Of course you are always going to have idiots that are going to make everyone else look bad. Are we forgetting what we are going to war for? To defend the right to do as we please? In my opinin this was the best time for the employees to strike. It shows the terriost you can't stop us. Plus they had put the strike on hold because of the attacks on Sept. 11. And had been working without a contract since July 1. Do you expect them to put their lifes on hold because of some stupid terriost. Or do you think that we should continue on with our lives like GW tells us to? Yes econimcally it wasn't the best time. But as far as I am concerned in every other way it was the best. Also I heard on the news tonight that the average state union employee only makes 400 dollars a week. So their not all making big bucks. One last thought, it was the unions that helped bring up the wage scale in the United States. Do you think that your rich employer pays you alot because he is generous or because he doesn't want to lose you to the union up the road?
Link Posted: 10/16/2001 4:10:34 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/16/2001 4:14:25 PM EDT by Aviator]
Originally Posted By Jim_Dandy: And I assume you vote, right? If you didn't vote, then I would say that you really have no place to bitch. A union can be handled just like any other group of politicians by voting and lobbying. No load doesn't belong, has never belonged, doesn't want to belong and wants to make no effort to change something that he finds offensive. This brings me to ask, What is the purpose of this inane bitching? What do you hope to accomplish? You don't like unions, so what? You're wholly unqualified to be any kind of authority so let it go. And again, [b]IF YOU DON'T VOTE, DON'T BITCH.[/b]
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Hrmm, lets see. I just spent the last couple of days putting up with union members calling me a trator, a scab, throwing the American Flag on the driveway in front of the bus that was taking me into a Veteran's Home so I could take care of the Vets. This normally is the job of the individuals calling me all this shit who are on strike. I would say that is a pretty good insight to some of the things Unions do. Even if I had not seen this, I would be able to comment on Unions because of a little thing called [b]FREEDOM OF SPEECH[/b]. You may not like what I am saying, You don't have to listen or read it, just quit responding here. as far as voting, Nope, not a member, will never be. However, if I can cause one person reading this stuff, to NOT join a union then I [b]AM[/b] changing unions don't you think? I am reducing the membership of them. Now, to the rest of you. If you notice the title of this thread is not "Why all Unions Suck". I do agree with a few of you that sometimes they are needed. I do also think a lot of them are not needed. More often than not I feel they go way beyond what they were intended to do and end up causing selfish, lazy workers. Those of you IN the union take a look around and if you are honest with yourselves you will see some examples. one of my biggest peves about them is that they usually support Democratic candidates who are wanting big government and usually gun control. Most of you here are gun owners and like it or not, part of your dues go to tking those guns away. If you need to be in the union, so be it. I would like to think tht people are smart enough to look at unions for more than "what can they get me" and balance the good they do for you the harm they do and make an honest decision. Aviator [img]www.milpubs.com/aviator.gif[/img]
Link Posted: 10/16/2001 4:25:22 PM EDT
help im not a member of ar15.com , but i want to post without joining. and if you dont let me i will call it discrimanation, i know how to become a member but i dont want to follow the rules and if you dont let me i think its a crock and smells fishy.even if i like ar15 as much as you do, i cant be a true member until i join? thats just not fair! SOUND FAMILIAR?
Link Posted: 10/16/2001 4:27:34 PM EDT
In my area, the top non-union wage for a journeyman electrician is about $18.00 an hour or approximately $37,400.00 a year no matter how "good" you are. With that job, you may or may not get health insurance, either free or pay for it yourself. You will not get a pension. You may or may not get an employer matched 401K. You may or may not keep your job... meaning, you can be terminated without just cause and without any representation. To some of you, this might sound like a pretty good setup. Let's try it in a real world scenario. Let's say you are married with 4 schoolage kids. Your wife works too but she makes just about enough to pay for the daycare when the kids aren't in school and put gas in her car. You have a house payment, you have one car loan and the other one's paid for but trips to the auto parts store are begining to feel like car payments at the bank. One of your kids gets sick, your wife has to stay home with it and miss work, now you gotta pray for some overtime or work on the side to make up for your wife's lost wages and to pay the medical deductible and buy medicine(if you have the medical insurance at all). OHSHIT! What are we gonna do now? I guess it's ok because you got to negotiate your own wage, after all you're the highest paid journeyman in town (except for those union shmucks) Those union schmucks are the reason this imaginary guy is lucky enough to be making that $18.00 an hour cause the outfit he works for used to pay about %60 of that before unions put the heat on them. Union members, by contrast are making a decent living wage. We are by no means overpaid. If I work in my home jurisdiction I make $24.50 per hour or approximately $47,040.00 per year (subtracted for no paid vacations, sick days , holidays or personal days, if you aint at work, you don't get paid). Every other journeyman in my local ( 1100 or so), makes the same amount per hr. I have an excellent pension and annuity, health ins including optical and dental. paid on my behalf by any contractor I work for, not out of my pocket. Am I rich? nope. Am I doing OK? yes. Who do I owe that too? My Union I'm not condoning any actions taken by any union anywhere, but I'm saying unions are not "bad" by nature. They are designed to increase the standard of living for working men and women everywhere, bot union and non-union.
Link Posted: 10/16/2001 4:31:03 PM EDT
testify brother coltshooter!
Link Posted: 10/16/2001 4:32:19 PM EDT
Carpenters local 306 I have worked both sides union and non-union. I prefer union simply because the pay is better, the benefits are better, the job sites are much safer,and You are not asked to circumvent workmans comp if you are hurt on the job. Aviator some unions as you describe do not do much for their members or the employer. However, if any of you think I am unqualified and lazy you pick the company you want me to go to work for, performing my trade, union or non and I will be the last dog standing at the end of the job. Sons, daughters, nieces and nephews, etc. excluded. Oh you have to pay my relocation expenses and any difference in the cost of livng,wages etc.. No flame intended but please don't generalize all of us into one lump. In the construction industry layoffs happen as work picks up and slows down, being in a union your benefits (medical, pension, vacation, etc.) follow you so you do not have to go through 90 day waiting periods on medical, restart a new pension, and possibly lose the old one, because you were laid off after 4 years on a 5 year vesting plan that you have 30,000 dollars in. Like it or not there are valid reasons for joining a union, for my family it is the best deal. For yours it may not be. To each his own, but again please don't lump me in with lazy unqualified people.
Link Posted: 10/16/2001 4:37:10 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/16/2001 4:32:55 PM EDT by Juggernaut]
Originally Posted By Jim_Dandy:
I'm not a member of the Governement, or of the ATF, but I complain about them all of the time.
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And I assume you vote, right? If you didn't vote, then I would say that you really have no place to bitch. A union can be handled just like any other group of politicians by voting and lobbying. No load doesn't belong, has never belonged, doesn't want to belong and wants to make no effort to change something that he finds offensive. This brings me to ask, What is the purpose of this inane bitching? What do you hope to accomplish? You don't like unions, so what? You're wholly unqualified to be any kind of authority so let it go. And again, [b]IF YOU DON'T VOTE, DON'T BITCH.[/b]
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Sure, I vote. Bad example I guess. I also have the RIGHT to bitch about Canada, evben though I don't live there, don't belong there, or have any political affiliation with Canada. Yet, my First Amendment rights actually allow me to complain about organizations I don't belong to. How about being able to work in a place, where an organization you don't belong to, oppresses you because you don't belong. Can I still complain, or do I have to join them to complain? You're right, 'No load' here doesn't belong, won't belong, and doesn't believe that a man has to lay down his principles to get a job. I sure as hell won't join a union to get them off of my back, or to get a job. Now, who's hiding behind the group here? Who's the 'no load' now? Your argument that I am unqualified to comment on or want to change unions is shit, and I am sure you would scream bloody murder if we tried to tell you not to comment on or effect change in any organization you don't belong to. And how in the hell would you know I'm wholly unqualified to be any kind of authority? How do you know me? Oops, that's [b]your[/b] line, right? Take care, Juggernaut
Link Posted: 10/16/2001 4:46:34 PM EDT
Well Jim, the reason I basically think you are a blow hard who resorts to juvenile antics (what ever “no load means,” much be something that union members use, so what ever) goes back to several post that you have made in which you give false info, once you are corrected you result to little brainless quips that are irrelevant.
Link Posted: 10/16/2001 4:49:30 PM EDT
Originally Posted By comp1911girl: I go to a local community college here in the great state of Minnesota and everyday the union employees at my school PEACEFULLY walked the picket line as is their right. Of course you are always going to have idiots that are going to make everyone else look bad. Are we forgetting what we are going to war for? To defend the right to do as we please? In my opinin this was the best time for the employees to strike. It shows the terriost you can't stop us. Plus they had put the strike on hold because of the attacks on Sept. 11. And had been working without a contract since July 1. Do you expect them to put their lifes on hold because of some stupid terriost. Or do you think that we should continue on with our lives like GW tells us to? Yes econimcally it wasn't the best time. But as far as I am concerned in every other way it was the best. Also I heard on the news tonight that the average state union employee only makes 400 dollars a week. So their not all making big bucks. One last thought, it was the unions that helped bring up the wage scale in the United States. Do you think that your rich employer pays you alot because he is generous or because he doesn't want to lose you to the union up the road?
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Exactly. I'm a salaried mechanical engineer and work with millwrights, pipefitters, electricians, sheetmetal men and instrument men, most of which are members of an independent union. I also work with union contractors in the same crafts. All are union, all have different work ethic and even quality. I'm not all warm and fuzzy about some union policy, yet I support them. I learn from them every day. As far as the facts in Aviator's post, yes, people can be assholes. Fine. How would you like to picket and get flipped off by 10% of the people who drive by? As far as State of MN workers being some of the highest paid state workers, I do not know. What I do know is they are lower paid then their equivilents in the private sector. They were also getting hosed on health care costs.
Link Posted: 10/16/2001 4:49:58 PM EDT
Colt I hate to bust you bubble, but have you ever had a class in econ before? What do you think happens when wages go up? Do you think the owners do static budgeting, or do they pass the cost off? If they pass the cost of, who eventually pays? Is it that prices go up and in effect the "big" increase in pay in real world terms doesn't equal a increase in pay?
Link Posted: 10/16/2001 4:52:07 PM EDT
Unions are a direct result of bad management. Were it not for unscrupulous employers unions would not be neccesary. I am in the UA Plumbers and Pipefitters and our local is very responsible in its dealings with our contractors. The UA and the MCA (Mechanical Contractors Association) are partners in our industry. I agree some union members go over the line just as some people do in ALL of society, including non union people.I don't think this is a reason to hate all unions. Just because someone with a gun commits a crime doesn't mean all gun owners are criminals. Think about it. Thanks, for your consideration, Jim Hall
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