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Posted: 10/15/2001 2:10:55 PM EDT
I swear this man has done more to raise my blood pressure than the first Miz Hun! I must promise myself [u]not[/u] to read any more of his ravings on the supposed 'crimes' of the United States! 'Crimes' for which our country was punished by the WTC attack! Read the entire article at: [url]http://worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=24923[/url] if you can stomach it. But here's a little sample to aid your indigestion! "Americans have been sold a fantasy by their government and by the 'experts' on television. "The fantasy is that our government will flex its muscles overseas, make demands, kill a lot of people, demonstrate that we don't tolerate terrorism, 'bring the terrorists to justice' and end terrorism forever. [b]"But for decades, our government has been flexing its muscles overseas, making demands, killing people and teaching terrorists a lesson? And what did it achieve? [u]It brought about the deaths of 6,000 Americans on Sept. 11[/u]."[/b] Did you catch that? [u]Our government brought about the deaths of 6,000 Americans[/u]! One supposes that Osama Bin Laden was just a patsy in the grand scheme of things. Karma, luck, kismet, fate, the gods, the 'powers that be', whatever, had decided that America must pay for its sins and Bin Laden was simply the message boy! Eric The(OffToThePharmacyForSomeStrongerBPMeds!)Hu­n[>]:)]
Link Posted: 10/15/2001 2:28:55 PM EDT
Link Posted: 10/15/2001 2:38:33 PM EDT
EricTheHun: Shut the F Up!!! [;)] I don't disavow Brown. He's making a lot of sense to me. Its you guys who aren't. You'll never learn. You don't want to admit, or refuse to believe, that our own gov't brought this on us. It is much simpler to blame Bin Laden, kill him, and say "Well that's that. We don't have to worry about anything any more. We are all safe. The govt has saved us! Now we need to establish our power all over the world Go Empire!" Empire does not work!!!!!! It results in WTC!!!!!! PS. yes the LP is a failure. But that is not because the ideas are bad or wrong. They just can't compete with the gov't lackies since they are everywhere. There ideas can't get out. It really is sad. When this country falls apart due to its gov't, maybe then Liberty can again flourish. But the tree of liberty is dying, being poisoned by the manure of govt lackies. It will only be revived by the blood of patriots and tyrants. I fear that day will never come, and we all we be slaves(more so than we are now)
Link Posted: 10/15/2001 2:40:39 PM EDT
I don't agree with Browne's position on this, but you are misrepresenting what he is saying. He is basically taking the isolationist point of view. He is saying that America shouldn't muck around in the affairs of other countries, and that when we do so, we rarely achieve our aims and often cause subsidiary reactions that end up hurting us in the long run. I don't think anyone would argue that there are cases where the isolationist philosophy is correct or where our foreign policy has spawned unintended and harmful consequences. Our policies in Iran with the Shah or our support for Saddam Hussein during the Iran-Iraq war in the 1980's, for example. I think it is a legitimate question to ask whether the September 11th terrorism is another example. I think it is clear that the presence of our troops in Saudi Arabia, our support for an unpopular Saudi government, and our support of Israel are primary causes for Osama bin Laden's hatred for America. So I don't think Browne is off base in pointing that out. But it is not enough to stop there and say we should withdraw and keep to ourselves. It is certainly debatable whether Bin Laden is a one-of-kind guy who can be wiped out or whether we will fight this kind of thing forever much like Israel has to do. It is also debatable whether things like our support for Israel and Saudi Arabia are being carried out in the most effective manner (effective being defined as that which is most beneficial to our long-term interests as a nation). I say those questions are debatable not because I believe that we should change our policy. However, anyone who says they know the best way out of this mess and can foresee all the consequences is being way too bold. The strategy of this war on terrorism should be open to debate so that we can find the best options. Don't try to turn Browne into a Hanoi Jane just so that you can vent your frustrations.
Link Posted: 10/15/2001 2:48:29 PM EDT
Link Posted: 10/15/2001 4:22:00 PM EDT
Link Posted: 10/15/2001 4:25:13 PM EDT
Link Posted: 10/15/2001 4:31:39 PM EDT
I guess we can all have our views about the politics of our time and debate them. That being said, all I have to do is to view the videos of September 11th in my mind, and think of the horrors on those 4 planes, and come to the swift conclusion that this is not the time for a Johnny Cochran to defend the Taliban - WE NEED TO EXTERMINATE THE BASTARDS!!
Link Posted: 10/15/2001 4:34:06 PM EDT
I think Harry has brought this on himself.
Link Posted: 10/15/2001 4:38:48 PM EDT
Sorry, Garand_Shooter, but do you agree with the sentences I outlined above? Do you believe that our government 'brought about the deaths of 6,000 Americans on Sept. 11'???? And for your further consideration, you will note that the word '[b]libertarian[/b]' does not appear anywhere in my post!!! Thank you, but I am a 'libertarian' Republican, who loves 'personal freedom, individual responsibility, free markets, and minimal government' just as President Reagan did. But I will not stand idly by and hold the coats of those who are trying to stone the United States at this crucial time in our history!!! BTW, you still feel the same about 'unlimited immigration' following September 11, 2001? Let me know if you've changed your mind. Eric The(HarryBrowne'sAPrick,WithoutRegardToPartyA­ffiliation!)Hun[>]:)]
Link Posted: 10/15/2001 4:40:04 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/15/2001 4:38:31 PM EDT by CassidyGT]
I agree with Harry Browne 100%. Empire USA is a crappy way to run a country. I say we stay the hell out of everyone's business. If we continue on our present course, terrorism will continue and grow in the US. Hatred does not grow in a vacuum. Many people around the world hate the USA with damn good reason. Supporting totalitarian regimes like the Shah in Iran, dictators in Chile, Argentina, Greece, Egypt, S. Vietnam etc. ad nauseum do not make you friends - they make you enemies! So yes, the US did in fact have a hand in bringing about the deaths of 6000 Americans in NYC. In the same way that continually fucking with my neighbor might get me a punch in the nose. But that is small change compared to the deaths we have indirectly caused around the world since WW2. Bullying the world into doing whatever we wnat them to do is not a good way to be a neighbor. Minding your own business is!
Link Posted: 10/15/2001 4:40:37 PM EDT
I actually considered voting for this dickhead. He started this garbage the day after. Most of us DO acknowledge that we need to look hard at the past policies of this country but the asswipe brown flat out blames the whole thing on the USA. This isnt a perfect country but it takes a real dickhead to blame the USA for the death of over 6000 citizens instead of the perps. Whats next for harry? Guns cause crime too?
Link Posted: 10/15/2001 4:52:04 PM EDT
I agree with Eric. Harry Browne has destroyed any chance the Libertarian Party had of ever becoming mainstream with the boneheaded and downright treasonous way he's reacted to the WTC attack. He's a self-involved asshole with no concern for the country and a lot of concern with trying to make himself look "knowledgable."
Link Posted: 10/15/2001 4:52:28 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Garand_Shooter: I don't even bother responding to Erics posts anymore, he seems to be an anti-libertarian (anti-freedom?) bigot, he seeks anything he can to try to discredit the party or the movement, twists it around to support his point of view, and posts it. It's kinda like argueing with a race or religous bigot, it just aint worth the effort. I am not sure what it is about a group that stands for personal freedom, individual responsibility, free markets, and minimal government that bothers him so.
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I think I am gonna hop in your boat. Eric has a hatred for the LP and maybe further, the lack of reason when it comes to any of their idas. Eric, that isn't a slam. Just a call as I see it OTOH raf and I have had some really good exchanges and we agree on many points. I only choose to strive for the ideals as I see them attainable someday (in critical thoery) where he sees them as an absolute and thefore unreachable. Eric on the other hand seems to refuse to look outside his site picture or check his six beyond 25 years. Let me paddle for a while
Link Posted: 10/15/2001 4:58:45 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/15/2001 5:00:48 PM EDT by zazou]
Originally Posted By CassidyGT: I agree with Harry Browne 100%. Empire USA is a crappy way to run a country. I say we stay the hell out of everyone's business. If we continue on our present course, terrorism will continue and grow in the US. Hatred does not grow in a vacuum. Many people around the world hate the USA with damn good reason. Supporting totalitarian regimes like the Shah in Iran, dictators in Chile, Argentina, Greece, Egypt, S. Vietnam etc. ad nauseum do not make you friends - they make you enemies! So yes, the US did in fact have a hand in bringing about the deaths of 6000 Americans in NYC. In the same way that continually fucking with my neighbor might get me a punch in the nose. But that is small change compared to the deaths we have indirectly caused around the world since WW2. Bullying the world into doing whatever we wnat them to do is not a good way to be a neighbor. Minding your own business is!
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Just to add that this view point [b]does not[/b] in any way condone the acts of 9/11 or any other attack the ruthlessly target the innocents. 'cause I know someone is going to say that it does....
Link Posted: 10/15/2001 5:01:45 PM EDT
[b]Empire USA???[/b] So I suppose that you agree with Mr. Browne when he makes the following statement about what President Bush should do:
He must tell the world that our government will no longer impose its will on places like Iraq, Serbia, Afghanistan, the Middle East, Panama, Guatemala, Nicaragua and Colombia. He must say that we're returning to the peaceful foreign policy that America followed for its first century – [u]until President McKinley took the country into the Spanish-American War and down the road to empire[/u].
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'On the road to empire.' Wow, that's like something a communist would say about the US - we're nothing more than a colonizing power, just like the rest of Europe. He says it began with McKinley, and continued thereafter. What he neglects to mention is that at the end of WWII, when America stood bestride the world and could have enforced a 'Rule Americana' with English as the mandatory language, the US dollar as the sole currency, and representative democracy as the only form of government permitted - but we blinked! We gave it all up! For what? Idealism. We simply did not want to 'rule the world.' We were tired and we just wanted to go home and be left alone. We disbanded our armies and demobilized the soldiers, sailors and airmen as fast as we could! Sheeet! Empires should be made of sterner stuff than that! And what is this bullsheet?:
Americans are loved all over the world for what they've done – producing low-cost food and medicines, great entertainment, and the kind of voluntary charity that only free and prosperous people can bestow. At the same time, foreigners hate our government because it uses "foreign aid" and military muscle to impose its way upon the rest of the world.
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Americans are loved? But our government is hated? Someone needs to inform the Bin Ladens of this world that the World Trade Center was a civilian, repeat, civilian population center. I would imagine that (1) the 6,000 dead Americans and their families and friends do not feel 'loved' at this very moment, and (2) that the separation between people and their governments is not even a distinction that we in the United States ordinarily make, much less someone in Bumphuck, Afghanistan! Harry Browne is a fifth columnist is I ever saw one! The Vidkun Quisling of 21st Century America! Eric The(Let'sNotRewriteHistoryForHarry'sSake!)Hun­[>]:)]
Link Posted: 10/15/2001 5:06:58 PM EDT
Originally Posted By raf: The Libertarian Party is identical to its political antithesis, the Communist Party, in that neither party can survive contact with human nature without deviating from its stated ideals.
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In a sense you might be right here. The problem with putting communism into practice is that people just naturally want to own private property and to have some control over their lives, and it takes the most brutal sort of totalitarian government to convince them to give that up. One of the main problems with putting libertarianism into actual practice is that most people just can't resist the "free" goodies that government promises them. Since libertarians eschew the initiation of force to gain political goals, they are trapped between their own strict principles and the average voter's lack of principles.
Link Posted: 10/15/2001 5:07:43 PM EDT
Tell me, what kind of relationship has Harry Browne had with ABC? With NBC and the tabliods? What have they written or broadcast- or NOT broadcast- that would offend him or slight the Libertarian party? Just wondering out loud.
Link Posted: 10/15/2001 5:18:10 PM EDT
Post from Zazou -
Just to add that this view point does not in any way condone the acts of 9/11 any other attack the ruthlessly target the innocents. 'cause I know someone is going to say that it does
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No, not quite 'condone' that would be a poor choice of words for the views Mr. Browne and, ahem.. others hold. I think the correct word would be more along the lines of 'rationalize' the terrorists' conduct. They are fighting against a behemoth, a wealthy and corrupt government that has kept them and their fellow countrymen and co-religionists in utter dispair and hopelessness. If the American people could only see the sins that are committed in their names, they would recoil in horror! If Americans could only understand, you know, the way your typical goat herder in BinLadenstan understands, the true and utter depravity of American foreign policy since the days of William McKinley(!), then and only then could we find ourselves with peace throughout the world! And Americans would be dearly and affectionately loved by one and all throughout the globe! Come, gentlemen, teach us the horrors of the American Past, shows us our sins, explain to us the moral decay that America has exported that should rationalize what Bin Laden (may Allah fill his mouth with pig offal!) has done to our fellow countrymen! We're all ears! Eric The(ButDon'tDragItOut!)Hun[>]:)]
Link Posted: 10/15/2001 5:29:02 PM EDT
I am desperately ashamed that I voted for Mr. Brown. However, I did so knowing that Bush would take Texas. As they say, "Never again!" God Bless Texas
Link Posted: 10/15/2001 5:44:27 PM EDT
Post from zazou -
Eric has a hatred for the LP and maybe further, the lack of reason when it comes to any of their idas.
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So when Harry Browne speaks, he [b]is[/b] speaking for the Libertarian Party? That's nice to know that ya'll Libertarians speak with one voice on this crucial issue. Makes it like shooting ducks in a barrel! But, anyway, I await ya'll's reply to my posts! Eric The(Don'tMakeMeComeLookingForYou)Hun[>]:)]
Link Posted: 10/15/2001 5:47:52 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Garand_Shooter: I don't even bother responding to Erics posts anymore, he seems to be an anti-libertarian (anti-freedom?) bigot, he seeks anything he can to try to discredit the party or the movement, twists it around to support his point of view, and posts it.
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Kinda like what libertarians do to republicans, eh?
Link Posted: 10/15/2001 5:59:12 PM EDT
Here's another jewel from the Mouthpiece of the Libertarian Party - Mr. Harry 'At Your Service, Mr. Laden' Browne: "Our politicians say that most of the world supports the American military campaign. But what they mean is that our government is bribing foreign governments to support the military campaign. Meanwhile, a recent Gallup poll revealed that individual human beings in 35 major countries oppose American military retaliation by better than 3 to 1. "If American leaders would call a halt to the violence, condemn the terrorist attack and condemn the killing of innocent foreigners by previous U.S. administrations, there's a very good chance the cycle of death and destruction could end immediately." [b]Maybe[/b] we could just let these citizens from 35 major countries decide just which parts of the Bill of Rights they support for us. Winder what the result would be on the Second Amendment??? Or [b]maybe[/b] we could just send the would-be terrorists some 70 American virgins 'up front' and avoid the suicide attacks altogether![:D] Or [b]maybe[/b] if we would call a halt to rigorous application of the Second Amendment, condemn the use of firearms to prevent crimes, and condemn the killing of would-be rapists and murderers by so-called good guys and vigilantes, then there's a 'good chance' the cycle of rape, murder and destruction could end immediately! You see how assinine [u]that[/u] looks in print! Well, it sounds just as assinine to hear Harry Browne, the spokesman for the Libertarian Party, mumble his words out loud! Eric The(StillWaitingForMyHistoryLesson!)Hun[>]:)]
Link Posted: 10/15/2001 6:17:50 PM EDT
Eric, Rather than be combative and try to explain it to you, let me just give you a referal. Someone has already don ei much better 'The Thousand Year War" by Richard J.Maybury ISBN 0-942617-32-0 about 20bucks It is quick 240pg read an flat and blatantly honest. Once you have taken this effort to educate your self, rather that waiting fo me to do it, we can discuss it. This book, especially now, will answer a lot of your questions.
Link Posted: 10/15/2001 6:21:32 PM EDT
And finally, Mr. Harry 'F*** Justice, I'm Scared Like a Silly Little Schoolgirl Now' Browne, [b]the[/b] annointed speaker for all that pertains to the Libertarian Party, says:
"But first we must recognize that the fantasy our government is peddling now – of bringing peace by killing foreigners – is totally impossible."
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Who wants 'peace at any price' Mr. Browne? In case you not 'up' on current events, the United States has 6,000 murders on its hands, and infinite justice is what we seek (but to avoid offending the least of our brethren), even if we can't say it!
We have only two choices – death or peace. It's unfortunate that it will take far more courage to choose peace.
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Oh yes, Mr. Browne, your column simply reeks of bravery and courage. Far more courage than the mere US troops gone to foreign shores to bring justice to the murderers of YOUR countrymen. Eric The(Yes,Indeed,IThink'Courage'WhenIThinkOfHar­ryBrowne)Hun[>]:)] BTW gentlemen, I'm STILL waiting for my lesson!
Link Posted: 10/15/2001 6:28:07 PM EDT
Post from libertyof76 -
EricTheHun: Shut the F Up!!!
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Now, now, is that anyway to speak to a brother in arms? Even the smiley did not soften the sting of your comment! But, nevertheless, I've got good news for you! Your proctologist's office called - they found your head![:D] Eric The(Sorry,ThatWasCheapShot)Hun[>]:)]
Link Posted: 10/15/2001 6:28:21 PM EDT
Originally Squeaked Out By Harry Browne: It brought about the deaths of 6,000 Americans on Sept. 11
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That's no better than telling a woman, after she's been raped, "Honey, you really shouldn't wear skirts that short." It's disgusting, and moral relativism of the vilest sort. America didn't bring this on ourselves. There's nothing that can justify this. To even attempt to do so is so incredibly callous and repugnant that is reaches a new low in political discourse. I like [b]some[/b] of the ideas of the libertarians, but this guy just sickens me at how he has crowed "I told you so!" over and over, and danced in the blood of the World Trade Center since 11 September.
Link Posted: 10/15/2001 6:48:12 PM EDT
Hey Eric, could you drip just a [i]little[/i] more venom? I think there is a real difference between a "cause" and an "excuse." Between an "explanation" and a "justification." You guys know that darn well, and are purposely and unfairly ignoring the difference to give yourselves something to gripe about. If Harry Browne seems to have an "I told you so" attitude, it's because he DID tell us so repeatedly long before Sept. 11th and we went ahead and kicked the hornet's nest anyway. Of course, our government would NEVER do anything wrong, would it? Our policies would NEVER be unjust, would they? We can ALWAYS trust Congress and our fine upstanding Presidents to do the right thing, can't we? At least when they are not being distracted by polls, money-waving lobbyists, or plump little interns.
Link Posted: 10/15/2001 7:02:59 PM EDT
I'm sure if we'd do like HB wants, and not offend the fragile sensibilities of foreigners, and thus not justify them in killing us, we wouldn't have any problems.
Link Posted: 10/15/2001 7:05:31 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Jarhead_22: justify
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Link Posted: 10/15/2001 7:07:05 PM EDT
Okay, but why hasn't Mr. Harry Brown given us any solutions???? He can be critical. easy easy easy. STEP INTO THE RING. FIGHT THE BASTARDS. Blaming things on the last 20 years of foreign policy is easy as hell too. But like it or Not we are in a WAR. And criticing may make beter future policy. But it will not win the WAR THAT IS RIGHT HEAR AND NOW!!! What I am saying is that; fine foriegn policy may not be outstanding, but their is still a war on. If we don't win then we shall surely loose. So the only real mistake that I can see is that we didn't do this back in the eighties. Bad policy or not. But on the other hand , radical peoples of Islamic faith blame this on the creation of Isreal(if they have any real reason at all, they may just like to fight). But frankly when it comes to Isreal I wouldn't do much different accept not abandon them in the first place; 1992-2000 saw the United States publically distance itself from Isreal. They could also point the way to us being attacked. They could have viewed it as if our distancing ourselves from Isreal. Maybe if they attack us we will abandon Isreal. I don't know I am American and not Arabic!! Only Bin Laden knows why he attacked. Only individual Terrorists know why they do what they do. And also its a pitty that Libertarian (such individualistic people as they are) are putting the blame for this on other people. When ALL LIBERTARIANS KNOW THAT A MAN IS RESPONSIBLE FOR HIS OWN ACTIONS. NO MATTER WHAT RATIONALISATION HE USES. So this sentiment of blaming the US for the Attacks is one that contradicts a basic axiom of Libertarian epistomology in the first place. I think you guys who call yourselves Libertarians are contradictory. So Bin Laden says this or that regarding his attack, but regardless of what the SOB said, It is STILL HE THAT PERFORMED THE ACTIONS. HE is responsible and he will surely pay the price. Benjamin Libertarian in Republican Clothing.
Link Posted: 10/15/2001 7:07:37 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Avtomat: justify
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Where are you guys getting this? It's always real easy to argue with a position that the other side is NOT MAKING. But it don't make much sense.
Link Posted: 10/15/2001 7:09:03 PM EDT
Forget Harry Browne. Get behind the Constitution Party. They are both Pro-Gun, Pro-Free Speech, etc. But, unlike the Libertarians they give a damn about America. They are against Drugs, Abortion, and the UN unlike the Libercrats. Oops I mean Libertarians.
Link Posted: 10/15/2001 7:11:27 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Benjamin0001: So Bin Laden says this or that regarding his attack, but regardless of what the SOB said, It is STILL HE THAT PERFORMED THE ACTIONS. HE is responsible and he will surely pay the price.
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Did Harry Browne or anyone here say different?
Link Posted: 10/15/2001 7:15:01 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Benjamin0001: Okay, but why hasn't Mr. Harry Brown given us any solutions????
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They have been for years. But the American people won't have it because [whine] it's to hard [/whine] I am quickly finding out that Eric, et al, have no real knowledge of the situation, nor the [b]real[/b] desire to get some. Instead they will continue to bitch about it and the libertarians [sic] in an effort to avoid understanding and accept any responsibility Juris-Naturalist - Anarcho-Capitalist. Liberty First.
Link Posted: 10/15/2001 7:17:06 PM EDT
Originally Posted By cc48510: Forget Harry Browne. Get behind the Constitution Party. They are both Pro-Gun, Pro-Free Speech, etc. But, unlike the Libertarians they give a damn about America. They are against Drugs, Abortion, and the UN unlike the Libercrats. Oops I mean Libertarians.
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As long as you are a Christian, anyway.
But, unlike the Libertarians they give a damn about America.
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I beg your pardon!!
Link Posted: 10/15/2001 7:20:17 PM EDT
oroginally posted by Eric the Hun: "Thank you, but I am a 'libertarian' Republican, who loves 'personal freedom, individual responsibility, free markets, and minimal government' just as President Reagan did." Regan was a great president... However, he GAVE Israel more money/weapons during his presidency than the last 5 presidents COMBINED did...somewhere in the 40-50 billion neighborhood-give or take. You are an example of how trusting WE should all be of our government. Robino(and that's your lesson for today)the Hun[>]:)]
Link Posted: 10/15/2001 7:21:08 PM EDT
Originally Posted By cc48510: Forget Harry Browne. Get behind the Constitution Party. They are both Pro-Gun, Pro-Free Speech, etc. But, unlike the Libertarians they give a damn about America. They are against Drugs, Abortion, and the UN unlike the Libercrats. Oops I mean Libertarians.
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More ignorant assumptions. I'm a Libertarian and I hate the UN. I believe abortion should be illegal, because it violates the rights of the individual. And I oppose the USE OF drugs. I suppose, in "giving a damn" about America, you support civil asset forfeiture, secret sneak-and-peek searches, and warrantless phone tapping to fight the "War on Drugs"? The Constitution Party is way better than the Democrats or Republicans, but does not seem to be truly committed to the more basic principles of limited government, except where it works to their advantage.
Link Posted: 10/15/2001 7:23:01 PM EDT
No; No-one said anything different, but also nobody else pointed out that which I said. I was not refering to anyone here unless Harry Brown is here with us. He is the one blaming the US for the attacks placed upon her. All I am saying is that Bin Laden had a choice to make and he made it. He chose War over all other possibilities. And so goes every other nation in the middle east making choices. Benjamin
Link Posted: 10/15/2001 7:29:08 PM EDT
I really like Reagan. But "Reagan" and "minimal government" go together like "Schumer" and "freedom."
Link Posted: 10/15/2001 7:34:47 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Benjamin0001: No; No-one said anything different, but also nobody else pointed out that which I said. I was not refering to anyone here unless Harry Brown is here with us. He is the one blaming the US for the attacks placed upon her. All I am saying is that Bin Laden had a choice to make and he made it. He chose War over all other possibilities. And so goes every other nation in the middle east making choices. Benjamin
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I said Harry Browne. You're saying that Harry Browne actually said we should NOT punish the exact individuals who are found responsible for the crime? Where did he say that?
Link Posted: 10/15/2001 7:43:21 PM EDT
Originally Posted By robino: oroginally posted by Eric the Hun: "Thank you, but I am a 'libertarian' Republican, who loves 'personal freedom, individual responsibility, free markets, and minimal government' just as President Reagan did." Regan was a great president... However, he GAVE Israel more money/weapons during his presidency than the last 5 presidents COMBINED did...somewhere in the 40-50 billion neighborhood-give or take.
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So what? The two statements have NOTHING to do with each other.
Link Posted: 10/15/2001 7:59:26 PM EDT
Originally Posted By EricTheHun: Thank you, but I am a 'libertarian' Republican, who loves 'personal freedom, individual responsibility, free markets, and minimal government' just as President Reagan did.
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Bill Maher calls himself a Libertarian also. I won't argue against your rants. One can not reasonably engage an idiot in conversation or a debate without lowering one's dialogue to the level of idiocy required to be understood. I simply will not do it. Door-to- door preachers won't change my views on religion, and I suspect I will never change your views on the Libertarian Party. You go on foolishly believing that Republicans are for freedom and I'll continue to believe that the Libertarians have a snowball's chance in hell of ever being more than a mere footnote in history. My friend, American's don't want true freedom. They want protection. They will get a warm fuzzy blanket payed for by their neighbors blood, sweat and tears. Good night. Suck on your pacifiers and snuggle with your "Wubbies" tonight, the sun will rise again tomorrow because our government says it will. Roy "Sorry I'm stealing the Hun's trademark signature, but I'm mad as HELL" Mercer
Link Posted: 10/15/2001 8:11:31 PM EDT
Fuzz Bean, Harry Browne said this:" The fantasy is that our government will flex its muscles overseas, make demands, kill a lot of people, demonstrate that we don't tolerate terrorism, "bring the terrorists to justice" and end terrorism forever. But for decades, our government has been flexing its muscles overseas, making demands, killing people and teaching terrorists a lesson? And what did it achieve? It brought about the deaths of 6,000 Americans on Sept. 11." He is blaming US foreign Policy for the death of 6000 Americans. So in essence he is pointing the finger of blame at America , I am merely stating That Usama Bin Laden Made his choice. For Whatever Reason. And I think it is wrong to Both Harry Browne to blame America and Usama to blame America. Harry Browne is blaming that which is blameless because Usama makes his own choices regardless of whatever rationalisation he may use, he is indeed the one responsible. Benjamin
Link Posted: 10/15/2001 8:23:17 PM EDT
Eric the troll, out to rile Libertarians again. [sleep] Don't feed the trolls!
Link Posted: 10/15/2001 8:33:28 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/15/2001 8:35:08 PM EDT by trickshot]
Sorry Eric, but Harry changed my life. I agree with him 100%. America brought this on itself, our government is our worst enemy. It kills its citizens whenever it is expedient to do so. It steals our money through taxation, and it keeps us all from being and doing our best. As Browne says: "The government breaks your legs and then hands you a pair of crutches and says 'See! Without me you couldn't walk!'" If you can't grasp even a glimmer of what he is talking about, if you can't see all the places where our nation has wasted so much time and money on absurdity, well, I feel very sorry for you. It's unfortunate, but America can't be both uneducated and free. It doesn't work that way. All this war rhetoric is just a smokescreen masking the biggest globalist power grab in history. War has never solved anything, why do we think it will solve anything this time around? My prediction is that this republic's days are numbered. Not that it even resembles a republic anymore anyways. I'm looking forward to something better, even if it takes a lot of struggle and hardship to get there. As far as Bin Laden goes, I have no beef with him. No one in my family died that day. If someone in yours did, then go get revenge yourself, and stop making the state do your dirty work. Hell, I don't even know if he had anything to do with Sept. 11 or not. He's half a world away. The only way he can terrorize me is via the media. Fuck him and fuck the media. I want out of this chickenshit federal government--in other words, I don't want them to speak on my behalf, tax me, assault me or my family, or otherwise involve itself in my affairs. I will gladly opt-out of voting, and avoid interstate highways, the post office, etc.
Link Posted: 10/15/2001 8:47:13 PM EDT
Originally Posted By trickshot: As far as Bin Laden goes, I have no beef with him. No one in my family died that day.
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“War is an ugly thing but not the ugliest of things; the decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feelings which thinks that nothing is worth war is much worse. A man who has nothing which he is willing to fight for, nothing which he cares about more than he does about his personal safety, is a miserable creature who has no chance of being free, unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself.” --John Stuart Mill
Link Posted: 10/15/2001 8:51:26 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/15/2001 8:46:56 PM EDT by punkatomic]
There is some truth in what HB said. "You can't handle the truth!" -Quote from a Jack Nicholson character. What I mean is, you cannot take what he said personally or with your emotions unrestrained. You have to learn to listen to other views impassively. Now that 9/11 has happened and we've heard the terrorists supposed reasons for it, our policy of supporting Israel and the rhetoric by evil men in the Taliban and Al Queda shows how America as the only superpower reaps what she sows. Sorry, but it's a sad fact of life in the modern world. How do we change things? We do what we always do, go in and destroy things and try to create a diferent political environment and maybe the problem will go away or will be held in check by others till time heals the wounds.
Link Posted: 10/15/2001 8:55:13 PM EDT
Originally Posted By EricTheHun: [b]Empire USA???[/b] So I suppose that you agree with Mr. Browne when he makes the following statement about what President Bush should do:
He must tell the world that our government will no longer impose its will on places like Iraq, Serbia, Afghanistan, the Middle East, Panama, Guatemala, Nicaragua and Colombia. He must say that we're returning to the peaceful foreign policy that America followed for its first century – [u]until President McKinley took the country into the Spanish-American War and down the road to empire[/u].
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Hmmm. Any of you smart guys ever heard of something called the "Monroe Doctrine?" It said something like this: "If any foreign power messes around in the Western Hemisphere, we're gonna smack you upside the head." That was a long time before the Spanish-American War, and the only reason it was limited to the Western Hemisphere is that was our 'sphere of influence' at the time. Note that 'Western Hemisphere' includes all of North and South America, not just the USA. What's the point, you might ask? Governments throughout history have involved themselves in each others' affairs, for trade, mutual defense, you name it. It's a fact of life, and it's virtually impossible to function as an isolationist. We all like to drive cars, but hey, that takes oil. Computers? Gotta have stuff from Taiwan and China. Kids want toys for Christmas? See how many you can find that say "Made in the USA". And that's just the beginning. I wish there were a way to close the doors and say "Screw you" to the rest of the world, and let the USA take care of itself. But the fact of the matter is, that ain't reality. It isn't going to happen, because it can't happen.
Link Posted: 10/15/2001 8:57:07 PM EDT
The Issue here is not Taxation. It is not Moral Decay. The Argument can be made that those things are signs , and that much is true. The issue here is War. The issue here is about surrendering any Liberty to any peoples involved be they Politicians in Washington or Terrorists anywhere else, and not that those two are of equal caliber they are not. If the Issue is Foreign Policy and War then I think Americans can rest assurred that they are not responsible for what happened on Sept 11. American is Not an Agressor Nation. They have Never struck first. They have always come to either a nations defense or our own peoples. Never have they waged a campaign of Empire Ever. If we are powerful and have influence all over the world it is also due to our policies and economic status and our ability to conduct trade on a global scale , as we all realize this is an assett, our forte if you will. So Bin Laden is not only Responsible for his own actions. His actions can be argued, and I think soundly, and with some justification that the path he has CHOSEN is not only morally wrong , but wrong on all fronts. While the US has the authority to wage war against those who would see us destroyed. Benjamin
Link Posted: 10/15/2001 8:58:14 PM EDT
Originally Posted By trickshot: As far as Bin Laden goes, I have no beef with him. No one in my family died that day. If someone in yours did, then go get revenge yourself, and stop making the state do your dirty work. Hell, I don't even know if he had anything to do with Sept. 11 or not. He's half a world away. The only way he can terrorize me is via the media.
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I would agree with you on the terms except for this. Being educated in this situation leaves us 3 options. 1) Yours: Do nothing, maintain the status quo (which includes all of our interventionism policies) and deaths will continue. 2) Brownes notion: pull out and apologize 3) Recognize we F'ed up bigtime, purge the immediate threat with extreme precision and then rethink our entire foreign policy. I think we will mostly go with #1. With it will be further loss of rights and freedom and eventually our nation as we know it should be. We will insist on maintaining an unwinnable guerilla war that has no clear conclusion, enemy or strategy. Ultimately it will slide into a WWIII scenario with the Christian west and Islamic East. The 1000 year war cycle will begin again. We are at the beginning of a new Crusades.
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