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Posted: 10/14/2001 2:52:25 PM EDT
OK here is the dilema... I am now working in a not so good part of town. I am 19 and can't have a CCWL here in GA. I can't be in possesion of a handgun in a vehicle due to a certain clause in the Southern(Damned) Democrats stupid laws. BUt I can of course have a rifle, but they are gennerally to bulky. So here are my choices... FOlding stock shotgun (870 of course) Folding Stock rifle (Preban) Bullpup stocked gun -either buy an M17s or -bullpup a gun I already own. -Marlin 60 -Ruger 10/22 -Ruger Mini-14(yes I have been told, crap) I am leaning towards bullpup-ing the Model 60 b/c it holds more rounds(16) Anyone ever tried it? -Chuck
Link Posted: 10/14/2001 3:03:51 PM EDT
HD 870. Each buckshot round you shoot has (9) 9mm balls. Much more effective than a .22. Plus you can buy these for under $300.
Link Posted: 10/14/2001 3:12:35 PM EDT
Four main problems with a shotgun... -can't carry as many rounds -lots of potential for "Innocent bystanders" being near by -unless I take the time to unfold the stock, the shotgun may break my wrist. -can't buy or possess a straight pistol grip here in GA because you have to be 21 to have an aow I am either thinking pre-ban mini/1022, or Bullpup-ing my Marlin 60
Link Posted: 10/14/2001 3:19:19 PM EDT
Chuck, What is wrong with considering less than lethal force, such as a TASER or pepper spray? I would think your goal would to break contact/disable the aggressor and live to fight another day. Martial arts helps, too. Put some other tools in the toolbox, besides firearms. Jim
Link Posted: 10/14/2001 3:20:33 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/14/2001 3:15:31 PM EDT by SGB]
Link Posted: 10/14/2001 3:24:55 PM EDT
Originally Posted By omar: Chuck, What is wrong with considering less than lethal force, such as a TASER or pepper spray? I would think your goal would to break contact/disable the aggressor and live to fight another day. Martial arts helps, too. Put some other tools in the toolbox, besides firearms. Jim
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Pepper spray just annoys some people and a Taser requires getting in too close. It takes quite a while to become proficient in martial arts and I don't think he has the time. I think 'less than lethal' has emboldened many criminals, since their risk is greatly reduced.
Link Posted: 10/14/2001 3:42:53 PM EDT
Go with the 870, the pistol grip does not make the 870 an aow. You can use slug so you don't have to worry about scatter pattern, or you can use rounds like the bean bag. The normal distance for a gunfight is less than 15 feet so you don't need snipper type shot placements. Don't worry about ammo 1 or 2 shots and the bad guys will scatter. The shotgun will not break your wrist, I've used this setup and have never had a problem. I would useing some type of less than lethal loads strongly. Semper Fi and God Bless
Link Posted: 10/14/2001 4:30:01 PM EDT
Originally Posted By WC1911: Go with the 870, the pistol grip does not make the 870 an aow. You can use slug so you don't have to worry about scatter pattern, or you can use rounds like the bean bag. The normal distance for a gunfight is less than 15 feet so you don't need snipper type shot placements. Don't worry about ammo 1 or 2 shots and the bad guys will scatter. The shotgun will not break your wrist, I've used this setup and have never had a problem. I would useing some type of less than lethal loads strongly. Semper Fi and God Bless
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What he said. Go with the 870!! They are built like a tank and will last forever!!! [shotgun]
Link Posted: 10/14/2001 4:45:50 PM EDT
Originally Posted By CHUCK6419: -Ruger Mini-14(yes I have been told, crap) -Chuck
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first, i favor the shotgun approach. second, the mini 14 is only crap when the person tries to make it a sniper rifle. that was never the purpose and hence was never built to be dead on accurate. i had no problems putting the bullets where i wanted them to go. but i also know i never would win a shooting competition with one. given that less than 5% of the times a firearm is used in self-defense results in the actual discharge of the firearm, it wouldn't be that big of a deal. and simply aiming it at him (perp) and putting one near him would probably be enough to dissuade him from his original intentions. either send him running and/or give you enough time to take more action (run or take better aim). off the mini soap box now. [:)]
Link Posted: 10/14/2001 4:50:21 PM EDT
-can't buy or possess a straight pistol grip here in GA because you have to be 21 to have an aow
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They ain't no AOW. Per info from a FFL off another site- The ATF [i]DID[/i] get into a tizzy about them a while back, and said that they (stockless Pistol gripped shotties) were classified as pistols, thus could only be sold to those over 21- but they since recanted. They will be AOW's soon enough though.
Link Posted: 10/14/2001 4:50:43 PM EDT
I'd go with a shotgun, specifically, the 870. I'd load the first two shots with a less than lethal beanbag round. If it takes more than 2 beanbags to bring someone down (meaning beanbags aint gonna cut it), load some buck in the last couple spots to back up the LTL rounds. But always fire the shotgun as if it were loaded with real shells.
Link Posted: 10/14/2001 5:01:53 PM EDT
No flame, but if I was in the "wrong part of town" I would worry about the theft of a firearm I had to leave in a vehicle. But if I had to carry a firearm, I would go for the shotgun, with a shortened but legal barrell, and a shortened stock. I have a youth gun for the kids that is about the legnth of the average .22 rifle that is very handy. fullclip
Link Posted: 10/14/2001 5:24:15 PM EDT
When I was in New York City in the 1970’s, the NYPD used double barrel shotguns. Their position at the time was that they never needed more than two rounds. I don’t think they still use them, and I’m definitely not suggesting you get a double barrel shotgun. Its just that you need to forget all the blazing gunfights you see in the movies – with rare exception, that’s not the real world. An 870 is an awesome weapon even by today’s standards. If you’re worried about recoil, use lighter loads. If you’re worried about bystanders (assuming they’re not too close), use a smaller pellet such as #4 buck. Also, racking the action and/or making potential assailants look down the cavernous barrel of that thing can encourage these folks to leave you alone without having to fire a shot – always a good thing! I don’t know if I’m disagreeing with ARlady or not, but keep in mind that any discharge of a firearm, even as a warning shot, is probably going to be viewed by the courts as justified only if deadly force was justified at the time. This becomes real important if someone is injured by that “warning shot”. Typically, you can’t fire a round just to help someone along. (Admittedly, the views of different states and courts on this may vary.)
Link Posted: 10/14/2001 5:25:55 PM EDT
Sounds like the man lives close to Hotlanta? Like fullclip, I would only leave a "throwaway" in my vehicle in that situation. I know its the wrong term to use but you guys know what I mean. One option that hasn't been brought to light would be a Dbl Barrel 12ga. I have seen short versions called "Coach Guns" new that were cheap. A pawn shop... maybe even cheaper. Small,lightweight and no safety I believe. Plenty of options (ammo type) for defensive situations. The first thing that comes to mind when looking at one from the wrong end would be: "My grandma... what big eyes you have!!!"[shock] A putride smell that would emit from BG and the pitter patter of BG feet would let you know that you have made the right choice. Good enough for the stage coaches for a reason I suppose.........
Link Posted: 10/14/2001 5:43:48 PM EDT
Go with a M-17. I absolutley love mine, ultra reliable acurate. Plus you get 30 ronds, versus, what 8 or 9 with a shot gun. Plus I would take a semi over a pump anyday. It's short and it's manuverable, perfect for in a car.
Link Posted: 10/14/2001 5:49:35 PM EDT
Plus if I was a perp, I would be more likely to back down facing down a 870 pump pistol grip than some tricked out .22. [shotgun] On the pumps versus auto SG's, I am almost as fast on the pump, and it is more dependable. BTW, the double barrel shotgun can be just as intimidating.
Link Posted: 10/15/2001 5:05:28 AM EDT
I think I am leaning towards the m-17. About how much am I looking to spend? -Chuck I did not mention that my air conditioner is broke and i leave my window down when it's hot. I also work in a gun range so I can leave the gun in the range till I go to the car.
Link Posted: 10/15/2001 5:07:10 AM EDT
I think I am leaning towards the m-17. About how much am I looking to spend? -Chuck I did not mention that my air conditioner is broke and i leave my window down when it's hot. I also work in a gun range so I can leave the gun in the range till I go to the car. So what's the cheapest route for an 870?, i am in college, cheap is good[uzi] -Chuck
Link Posted: 10/15/2001 6:15:34 AM EDT
New 870 Express can be found for around $230. If I remember correctly they made a "combo" with two barrels, long and short. Or you could go to a pawnshop and find an old 870 there for $150-$175 and have your local smith trim the barrel down and re-bead it. Or you could look for a police trade-in, which pop up every now and then.
Link Posted: 10/15/2001 6:20:38 AM EDT
Dude buy your self an old SKS. Damn thing will never brake,it's per-ban so you can put any stock on it. Nice and cheap,good junk gun just to keep in the car.
Link Posted: 10/15/2001 6:32:43 AM EDT
winchester's model 94 trapper in 44 mag...6 pounds, 34" long, 16" barrel and it holds up to 9 rounds. if you like in a pc area, the last thing you want is to have to explain why you have a "militarized" or "assault" style weapon in your vehicle. the beauty of a level action is that most everyone has a nice warm fuzzy feel about them. lever actions are a part of americana and if you are stopped or have to use it--you can just refer to it as your "deer rifle". http://www.winchester-guns.com/prodinfo/catalog/md94/m94_trapper.htm if you like marlin better they have a very comperable model... http://www.marlinfirearms.com/firearms/1894_centerfireRifles/1894P.htm good luck, sloth
Link Posted: 10/15/2001 6:36:22 AM EDT
How about a Kel-Tec sub2000.
Link Posted: 10/15/2001 6:45:38 AM EDT
i'm not following the logic on the m17. what's your thinking on this. is it mainly teh 30 round capability? do already own an ar15? why spend 600.00 on such a similar rifle that doesn't even have fully interchangable parts? i like the 870, myself. or perhaps somethign simlar. the m17 just does not seem practical in any sense.
Link Posted: 10/15/2001 6:53:06 AM EDT
Link Posted: 10/15/2001 8:07:26 AM EDT
antoher thing to keep in mind some of the newer "cruiser" model shotguns from mossberg and remington have a dao trigger group like a hammerless revolver would, meaning it's never cocked so they're supposed to be completely safe to have chambered and ready in a vehicle. wonder how dao trigger would work on quail? Henry Bowman could do it.
Link Posted: 10/15/2001 11:23:48 AM EDT
If that's your situation your first choice is to carry a pistol anyway. Buy one from an individual. Second choice, get the 870. I saw a new one the other day. It was an express with a factory extended mag. This is a new item I guess and it was 275 new. Don't get the folding stock or pistol grip if you want to hit your target. You need a solid stock. Remember if you get in a shooting scrap your gun will become "evidence" a wind up in some property room rusting for two years. Don't spend too much. Get a used Smith model 10 or any fixed sight K frame or a used 870.
Link Posted: 10/15/2001 6:07:32 PM EDT
Well my thinking on the M17s is that is is small enough to manevaer around ina vehicle and has lots of power as opposed to a pistol. I don't already have an AR-15 so it would be ok. I would definately have to put a folding stock on a 870 to make it manvearable. The lever-action is not a bad Idea, might go that route. -Chuck where can I get some info on the KEL-TEC, does it Jam, and COst$$?
Link Posted: 10/15/2001 6:09:46 PM EDT
Well my thinking on the M17s is that is is small enough to manevaer around ina vehicle and has lots of power as opposed to a pistol. I don't already have an AR-15 so it would be ok. I would definately have to put a folding stock on a 870 to make it manvearable. The lever-action is not a bad Idea, might go that route. -Chuck where can I get some info on the KEL-TEC, does it Jam, and COst$$?
Link Posted: 10/15/2001 6:57:39 PM EDT
I like a paratrooper SKS with folding stock. Use the factory 10 round mag so you can dump the rounds in the mag if you need to. It makes a great car gun,short ,slim,and fast.I still got a bunch of steel core bullets.
Link Posted: 10/15/2001 7:10:49 PM EDT
Why not get a shotgun and loaded it with non lethal rounds? I have seen bean bags hit a guy who was 6'9 350lbs and it knocked him on his ass. There are also a lot of other less lethal rounds out there they have some that are like buckshot and if you hit anyone that your not aiming at all they will have is a bad bruise.
Link Posted: 10/15/2001 8:06:07 PM EDT
The Kel-Tec should cost about $275 and it takes different makes of magazines (don't know which ones but can probably get high caps). It is available in 9mm or .40 cal. It seems like it will be a pretty cool little rifle and perfect for the car.
Link Posted: 10/15/2001 8:12:08 PM EDT
I like sloth's idea on the lever-gun. I have an older, full-sized mod 94 in .44mag. It holds nine rounds and can handle most problems that would arise. A lever-gun is about as PC as you can get while actually having a gun. They are compact, light, and fast handling. The .44 mag out of a rifle is some pretty decent firepower. I would not go with a less-than-lethal option. If I was in a situation where I needed a firearm, I damn sure don't want the first two rounds in the tube to be beanbags.
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