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Posted: 10/12/2001 11:36:34 AM EDT
OK, lets fight this one out.... The reasons for allowing tranfer of guns between citizens no paperwork and no checks.... vs. Requiring all gun tranfers to be done through a FFL that requires a paper trail and checks....
Link Posted: 10/12/2001 11:44:18 AM EDT
Here in MA even transfers between citizens require paperwork, so it's a moot point. For those of you in the free states, I'm sure this is of great concern, and rightly so.
Link Posted: 10/12/2001 11:45:25 AM EDT
Ummmm.....if you are trying to say that sellers at gun shows are not bound by the same laws they are every where else you might want to check your facts before we even begin. In my state, as most, sellers at a gun show or any place else must require the buyer to obtain a permit from the local sheriff.....who incidently does a background check before issuing it. The same rules apply to individuals and FFL holders whether at a show or not. Bottom line, there is no gun show loop hole.
Link Posted: 10/12/2001 11:50:09 AM EDT
Wow... here in Pennsylvania, at least as far as I know, there is no requirement to sell a long gun (rifle, shotgun, AR-15) through a FFL and no paperwork or permit is required. Handguns must be transfered via a FFL! Therefore, this issue is real here in PA.... someone correct me if I am wrong?
Link Posted: 10/12/2001 12:02:11 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/12/2001 11:58:12 AM EDT by cluster]
Tx.. no paper work at all for any firearm ( non NFA of course) when doing a privite sell... your selling a peice of metal why would you need to go thru a ffl..( unless its new) I quess ive been blessed to live in a free state without even realizing it. had no idea it was not the same all over. hmm ... or maybe Ive been doing wrong all this time... damn that woould suck..
Link Posted: 10/12/2001 12:12:15 PM EDT
Quarterbore, does the law in PA allowing individuals to sell long guns privately with no paperwork only apply if they are doing so at a gun show or is it applicable if they are selling them through the local newspaper? I ask because, for whatever reason, you saw fit to title this topic [b]gun show[/b] loophole. That is a term coined and used by the anti's in an attempt to close gun shows. Hell, most of them know there is no difference in the laws at shows or not at shows. When one of us (gun owners) use the same term it does nothing more than promote their agenda for them. Also why would allowing one to practice free trade at a gun show or any where else be considered a "loophole"? I've never had to get a background check and be registered with someone for purchasing a toaster. More people are killed in this country every year by cars than by guns. But we can buy cars without having to have a background check or registering them. We must register them before we can legally drive them but not simply to purchase. I believe the term is free trade.
Link Posted: 10/12/2001 1:58:59 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Quarterbore: OK, lets fight this one out.... The reasons for allowing tranfer of guns between citizens no paperwork and no checks....
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How about beacuse once it's law the FFL can charge anything he wants to process your tranfer. How would you feel about giving away 30% or so of the value of every gun you sold? In VA I hve no obligation beyond insuring the buyer is a legal resident. ie checking the DL.
Link Posted: 10/12/2001 2:16:56 PM EDT
In Florida, no paperwork is needed if its from a private collection. Even if its from a dealer. Ive seen lots of dealers at shows with guns separately marked as such on their tables. I even know someone who bought such a thing at a show.It was a friend of my friends brother... BP
Link Posted: 10/12/2001 2:21:03 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Quarterbore: Wow... here in Pennsylvania, at least as far as I know, there is no requirement to sell a long gun (rifle, shotgun, AR-15) through a FFL and no paperwork or permit is required. Handguns must be transfered via a FFL! Therefore, this issue is real here in PA.... someone correct me if I am wrong?
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Sounds right to me
Link Posted: 10/12/2001 2:36:03 PM EDT
Well, since less than 2% of criminals get their weapons from gun shows(which is such a small amount that the justice dept doesn't list it any more), it doesn't matter. It is just a back door registration scheme, plus they want to end gun shows, and end private sales too. Have you looked at McCain's Bill? There was a article analyzing all the parts of it, and you'd be surprised what is in there. It is quite scary.(check JPFO site for it)
Link Posted: 10/12/2001 2:59:09 PM EDT
There was a gun show here in Knoxville two weeks ago. It was the first time in twenty plus years of them that I saw "NO TRADING IN _____(parking lot, outside building, ect.)" and it made me wonder what we are coming to if a private individual can't trade or sell his/her item to another private individual. Also, it's the first time I've seen "For sale to FFL holders or LE only" signs on the full auto and high cap. items. There is no obligation to check anything or do any paper work if sold through the paper.
Link Posted: 10/12/2001 3:41:45 PM EDT
The reasons for allowing tranfer of guns between citizens no paperwork and no checks....
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Y'know...I failed to see the word "gunshow" in there...
Link Posted: 10/12/2001 3:44:57 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/12/2001 3:42:51 PM EDT by Quarterbore]
I didn't express my oppinions here..... Also, I posted the topic in "QUOTES".... I am really refering to a private transfer in general.... I like being able to buy a gun without big brother looking over my shoulder and I have several that were purchased person to person. I have also sold many guns person to person BUT.... With the events of recent weeks..... what if the person that you got top dolar for your AR-15 just happens to sell the gun to some terrorist who takes it to the local mall, concert, or ammusement park and opens up? Look, I like our freedoms but I own a Registered M-16 and I have a CCW permit! I have had my life reviewed by the FBI and ATF as well as my local Sherif and they said I am OK to own a weapon.... Is it unreasonable to require a FFL transfer? Hell, you can still find your own buyer but with a paper trail????? This is the argument and I can see both sides!!!
Link Posted: 10/12/2001 3:56:59 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/12/2001 3:52:47 PM EDT by JTR]
Well, in Oregon: In order to sell a firearm at a "gunshow" the seller has to perform a background check on the buyer, unless the transaction is performed on Christmas or Thanksgiving. "gunshow" is defined as ANYTIME, ANYWARE, more than 12 firearms are available for sale. If you have LESS THAN 12 firearms, total, on the property available for sale, and it is personal, not bussiness, no background check is required. That, is Oregon's answer to the "gunshow loophole" Read the statue and more here: http://rosecitygunshows.com/measure5.shtml Also, note that along w/the background check is your state registration of the firearm, fingerprinting, and catologing. . . . I think, that no sale of any item that is not an item of mass distruction (AKA Nukes, bio/chem, etc) is no F-ing bussiness of the gov, the public, or anyone else! I don't like the fact that I am catologed and fingerprinter, while my friend who bought his last weapon in 98 has no such catologing and has never in his life been fingerprinter. I personally feel violated, and as if it were implied I was a criminal by having to be fingerprinted! WTF have I ever done that makes me have to be on record w/the state? Also, they charge ME to run a background check on ME? They can pay it their damn selves if they wanna know so f-ing bad! The ONLY advantage to a background check is to have (the government) an index of law abbiding citizens that have arms. I think maybe 1/50 AT MOST gun crimes around these parts are conducted using leagaly purchased and regestered guns. Most criminals, regardless of weather this is thier 1st offense, DO NOT LEGALLY PURCHASE a firearm to use to commit a crime. If they do, they are stupid. I have to go so that's all I'm gonna say now. -Justin Dad burnt it! I keep puttign in the wrong link! Fixxed now. . . .
Link Posted: 10/12/2001 5:05:19 PM EDT
I am really refering to a private transfer in general....
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Which was my point...the media's (and HCI's) phrase of "gunshow" and "loophole" are both false premises and they're trying to sell the lie to the public. But onto honest debate... ...Private Transfer of Firearms Regulation My first question is...what's the upside? How many crimes have been solved by tracking the firearm's paperwork? Or more importantly...how many crimes have been [b]prevented[/b] and how many lives have been saved due to the government being able to track the paperwork of a firearm? Last...given that firearms are used more times to save lives than they are used to take lives or even more than they are used for all other crimes combined, the goal should be to reduce restrictions on the firearms themselves and legislate how one behaves with one. Thus, private transfers should not be an internal industry of a governing body.
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