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Posted: 10/9/2001 12:14:49 PM EDT
ok, i read an article in one of the gun mags at the grocery store the other day, had something about the FBI testing handgun rounds, had their tests to determine "wound value" they came up with the 45 and 10mm being the top 2 calibers. what exactly goes into this wound value equation? is what the FBI found pretty much dead on? (i mean hell, the 45 ball ammo was 1.5x a 9mm hydra-shok)
Link Posted: 10/9/2001 12:17:01 PM EDT
Blondes, burnettes, readheads. I think it is what you like and what your good with. I like the 9mm.
Link Posted: 10/9/2001 12:20:31 PM EDT
45 auto, Cor-bon 230gr +p. [pistol]
Link Posted: 10/9/2001 12:22:03 PM EDT
i understand that. what i was initially asking was... how does the FBI rate the wound value? is it velocity, gelatin, etc im not asking for opinions just asking if anyone knows the answer
Link Posted: 10/9/2001 12:32:57 PM EDT
i think they only tested 380 38 9mm - ball and hollow point 357 magnum 45 - ball and hollow point 10mm maybe the 38 super but i dont remember
Link Posted: 10/9/2001 12:43:21 PM EDT
i dont know about the fbi's tests but i've read the reports from the turn of the century (19th, that is) when the army was trying to find out what handgun ammo to use. this was after the spanish american war when they noticed that issue .38 wasn't stopping fanatical drugged-up moros. they shot cattle with .38, 9mm, and .45 among others and watched to see how long it took them to collapse. they also shot suspended sides of beef and tried to measure how much the meat swayed from the impact. the .45 generally gave the best results, but in almost every case they administered the coup-de-grace with that most lethal of all weapons, a hammer to the back of the skull.
Link Posted: 10/9/2001 3:30:49 PM EDT
Their 'wound value' is largely a function of bullet weight and penetration. In my opinion, it's pretty much crap. Based on their methodology, a 9mm 115-grain +P Cor-bon load has a wound value of zero simply because it doesn't meet their arbitrary minimum penetration standard (which is way too deep for bullets designed to stop people). Do a lot more research into the FBI's tests before you give them any credence.
Link Posted: 10/9/2001 3:33:26 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/9/2001 3:29:03 PM EDT by Ice]
Best defensive cartidge is 12 ga in a double barrelled pistol. Get the licenses and enjoy. Ice Edited to add that I think they were going to go with 10mm, but recoil was a little much for the more delicate femine agents. Ice
Link Posted: 10/9/2001 3:47:31 PM EDT
the best is the one you can put two or more rounds center mass, fast and accurate. all handgun calibers are weak as hell. if you want to stop a bad guy get a rifle (AR15!) or 12ga 00buck
Link Posted: 10/9/2001 4:06:47 PM EDT
shot placement is they better to hit with a 9mm then miss with a 45
Link Posted: 10/9/2001 4:47:36 PM EDT
I found some links to this topic over in the ammunition forum. Handgun Rounds don't produce enogh velocity to make a descent perminant wound channel. The best you can hope for is deep penitration, and a large enough caliber bullet to destroy major blood transport vessels/organs. The shootee basically bleeds to death. the more blood loss, the quicker the death. Even if you completely destry the heart, the human body has enough oxygenated blood in the brain to function for 15 to 30 seconds. You "x-ring" somebody, he's most likely going to die. Question is, when? The only sure fire one shot stop is a round to the brain/central nervous system. Lights out!!! The old 12 guage looks pretty good now, huh?...:)
Link Posted: 10/9/2001 5:03:45 PM EDT
Any caliber that you can handle in a stressful situation. Practice, practice, practice until every move is automatic.
Link Posted: 10/9/2001 5:06:18 PM EDT
Link Posted: 10/9/2001 5:12:55 PM EDT
All I have to say is that there is a very good reason that police forces across the country are dropping wonder-9s in favor of .45s and .40s. "Do what you will, just don't think the 9mm is a good manstopper."
Link Posted: 10/9/2001 5:17:08 PM EDT
45 and 357sig in that order...
Link Posted: 10/9/2001 5:19:17 PM EDT
The correct answer is whatever you shoot best with. Good calibers are .357 Mag. (it did set the precedent) .45 flying ashtray .40 .357 sig (fun little cartridge) and even 9mm with good ammunition.
Link Posted: 10/9/2001 5:30:56 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/9/2001 5:26:59 PM EDT by I_Luv_Carrots]
The Correct answer is the 10MM. Always. No other. Not the .40, which is merely a "female" version of the 10MM (A Shortened and downloaded 10MM becasue female agents couldn't handle the 10) The .357 Sig is just a necked .40 (But I like the 357 Sig) Modern factory .357 Mag's are no more than a .38 +p (Look at a load book sometime- THe loads get weaker and weaker as the years progress) The .45 is a good round, but it isn't anywhere near the 10MM. Now, you get into Glock 20's- 16 Rounds of 10MM, there is no handgun who can equal it- even close.
Link Posted: 10/9/2001 6:52:20 PM EDT
Depends on a lot of factors. Will you have to shoot thru cover? What is the climate.(in cold climates the perp will have several layers of clothing to penetrate which plugs hollowpoint and makes it act like a FMJ) I prefer the .45acp and use 230gr Hydraskoks on the theory that if my bullets don't expand, they are still cutting a .45cal hole. According to Evan Marshall, the 125gr 357 mag loading is the top stopper(95%), but only under ideal circumstances.
Link Posted: 10/9/2001 6:55:03 PM EDT
Well for General Purposes..I would have to say that the 475 Linebaugh is the best caliber..particularly when you are confronted by something BIG, HAIRY, with BIG CLAWS, TEETH..and is really pissed off.. For two legged varmits..I would go with the 500 Linebaugh..
Link Posted: 10/9/2001 7:08:01 PM EDT
Where in the hell did you get that according to Marshall, the .357 magnum is the best stopper only under 'ideal circumstances'???? His books say nothing of the sort. They rate it as the top stopper based on over 500 actual shootings, many of which we have to believe occurred under less than 'ideal circumstances'. And the reason many departments are dropping their 9mm's like hot rocks in favor of .40's is that they got suckered into using the 147-grain subsonic rounds that were the 'hero' of the FBI's testing after the Miami debacle. The FBI selected the 147-grain 9 purely as an interim load until they could figure out what the hell they were going to do. Because they perceived that one of the major problems in Miami was a lack of penetration by one 9mm Silvertip round, they picked a bullet that would penetrate deeply. They didn't really care about expansion, they simply wanted penetration. These have turned out to be some of the worst loads in 9mm. The lightweight 115 and 124-grain loads perform much better, but it's sometimes easier to sell a caliber change to department brass than an ammo change.
Link Posted: 10/9/2001 7:21:41 PM EDT
Link Posted: 10/9/2001 7:26:03 PM EDT
What difference does "wound value" mean when the average person in a situation where he has to return fire at close range is probably never even going to see the front site on his pistol? An average individual is going to fire as soon as his finger hits the trigger if his life is in danger. Training or no training that is just instinct. A .45 has what 7 or 8 rounds max in most pistols. A high cap 9mm has 13 to 17 rounds. With the 9mm I can lay suppresive fire causing my enemy to seek cover and if I hit him fine. If I don't I can still be firing while I am running like hell!!!! I have hunted the last 25 years of my life with some high caliber rifles and handguns. I can honestly say I have never felt the recoil of any of the shots I have taken. The adrenaline or "buck fever" totally washed out the felt recoil of the shot.[uzi]
Link Posted: 10/9/2001 7:38:12 PM EDT
Ideal cirumstances would be: not having to shoot thu concealment or cover, When the subject is not wearing multiple layers of clothing, a large obese person etc. The key is penetration. The 125gr 357 load is very frangible. The Miami fiasco was due to the FBI agents simply being outgunned. They brought pistols to a rifle fight.
Link Posted: 10/9/2001 7:38:13 PM EDT
Don't get me wrong, I love the 9mm, but can any one say "spray and pray"?
Link Posted: 10/9/2001 7:42:33 PM EDT
Forgot to mention: the FBI switched to the .40 after having problems with the 10mm smith pistols. The .40 came around just as the FBI was reavaluating the Smith 10mm reliability. Seeing an easy out, they decided on using the .40 saying that that was what they really wanted. In truth, the .40 was very close to the FBI's 10mm load. It had nothing to do with the comfort level of female agents.
Link Posted: 10/9/2001 7:47:45 PM EDT
This topic has been done to death for the last 150 years or so. Pick a reliable, user-friendly weapons system that you can shoot accurately. Make sure that it fits your needs (concealed carry, duty weapon, hostage rescue, bear protection, whatever). Get it in whichever one of the major duty calibers you like and can shoot well. Carry and don't look back. Just about any weapon that is reliable, affordable and you can shoot well is the "best" combat caliber for you. A wise friend of mine once said, after hearing me disparage a minor pistol caliber, said" would you let me shoot you in the chest with it?"
Link Posted: 10/9/2001 7:55:14 PM EDT
Originally Posted By ARben: Forgot to mention: the FBI switched to the .40 after having problems with the 10mm smith pistols. The .40 came around just as the FBI was reavaluating the Smith 10mm reliability. Seeing an easy out, they decided on using the .40 saying that that was what they really wanted. In truth, the .40 was very close to the FBI's 10mm load. It had nothing to do with the comfort level of female agents.
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Balderdash motherfucker. Swamy says you own a .40, and are trying to convince yourself it was "designed" that way to make yourself feel better. The FBI used full house 10's- The female agents couldn't take it- so they downloaded it. They figured out that if they were going to download it, why use that long case- so... VIOLA! The bastard red-headed stepchild of the 10MM was born. The .40 S&W ... and dem'z da facts brutha.
Link Posted: 10/9/2001 8:05:16 PM EDT
Don't get .40 envy there Carrots. Me thinks someone bought a 10mm and feels guilty now that it's a flop. Sorry for you, but there is nothing feminine about a 135gr. slug going 1350 fps. Do you really think that the 10mm offers that much more, considering it has the size/bullk/capacity of a .45? The 9mm is the real feminine load, not the .40. The .40 is hot shit baby.
Link Posted: 10/9/2001 8:08:02 PM EDT
SkaerE, What type of 45, Ball? Hollow point?
Link Posted: 10/9/2001 8:08:55 PM EDT
Originally Posted By dissipator556: Don't get .40 envy there Carrots. Me thinks someone bought a 10mm and feels guilty now that it's a flop. Sorry for you, but there is nothing feminine about a 135gr. slug going 1350 fps. Do you really think that the 10mm offers that much more, considering it has the size/bullk/capacity of a .45? The 9mm is the real feminine load, not the .40. The .40 is hot shit baby.
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THe 10MM is a flop in the US. You know. The unites states? The only nation on the planes who still thinks the 1911 is the best thing ever? The 10MM flopping isn't becasue it isn't eh best damn pistol round ever. It's becasue the American shooting public is too damn reactionary.
Link Posted: 10/9/2001 8:16:46 PM EDT
Originally Posted By I_Luv_Carrots: The Correct answer is the 10MM. Always. No other. [b][red]No it isn't; not always; and .40 S&W. The 10MM is a great cartridge, but, not THE answer.[/red][/b] Not the .40, which is merely a "female" version of the 10MM (A Shortened and downloaded 10MM becasue female agents couldn't handle the 10) [b][red]"beca sue"? This is the same old/tired/ crappy argument ad nauseum. Isn't it? Ask the Border Patrol, no, TELL a Border Patrol Agent he's shooting a distaff caliber...yeah, why don't ya do that, Carrots? Their choice of firearm and caliber is the Beretta .40. Not a 10MM anything. I believe they chose the caliber because it works. [/red][/b] The .357 Sig is just a necked .40 (But I like the 357 Sig) [b][red]...so, a .357SIG would be even MORE of a female type round than a regular .40, right, Carrots?[/red][/b] Modern factory .357 Mag's are no more than a .38 +p (Look at a load book sometime- THe loads get weaker and weaker as the years progress)[b][red]...even if those stats are true, when you touch off a full power .357 Magnum revolver, there is NO DOUBT in your mind you've just fired a GUN! [/red][/b] The .45 is a good round, but it isn't anywhere near the 10MM. [b][red]...different rounds for different jobs(see below). These two aren't really very similar at all. Kinda like girl #1 & girl #2---which brings to mind---a 3rd alternative---girl #1.5! A great mixture of the other two rolled into one, a compromise. A .40 Caliber Girl...yeah, that's it! A .40 Caliber Girl!!! Sometimes the best choice is a compromise. Better to have a bit of both than none of either one. [/red][/b] Now, you get into Glock 20's- 16 Rounds of 10MM, there is no handgun who can equal it- even close.
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[b][red]...real hard to argue this one!!! Even Spock agrees.[/red][/b][rolleyes]
Link Posted: 10/9/2001 8:17:29 PM EDT
Originally Posted By I_Luv_Carrots:
Originally Posted By ARben: Forgot to mention: the FBI switched to the .40 after having problems with the 10mm smith pistols. The .40 came around just as the FBI was reavaluating the Smith 10mm reliability. Seeing an easy out, they decided on using the .40 saying that that was what they really wanted. In truth, the .40 was very close to the FBI's 10mm load. It had nothing to do with the comfort level of female agents.
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Balderdash motherfucker. Swamy says you own a .40, and are trying to convince yourself it was "designed" that way to make yourself feel better. The FBI used full house 10's- The female agents couldn't take it- so they downloaded it. They figured out that if they were going to download it, why use that long case- so... VIOLA! The bastard red-headed stepchild of the 10MM was born. The .40 S&W ... and dem'z da facts brutha.
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Actually, I don't have a .40. Not quite sure where you are getting your info, but I read my info in Guns and Weapons for LE and later confirmed it with the armorer at the FBI building in St. Paul (or was it Minneapolois?). The .40 was not designed by the FBI, but that's another story. . . and those are the facts brother.
Link Posted: 10/9/2001 8:29:57 PM EDT
Sweet damn is Landon drunk! He says, "NO way, I'm sotally tober!"
Link Posted: 10/9/2001 8:33:17 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/9/2001 8:29:41 PM EDT by combo_man]
45 ACP FULL METAL JACKET. old school power that will flip you over . literally. no i dont know the question to your real answer. good luck
Link Posted: 10/9/2001 8:34:19 PM EDT
He thought the 10mm was hot shit, but it ain't nothin but a cold fart!
Link Posted: 10/9/2001 8:38:32 PM EDT
The .45acp is still the best. Big bullet, less recoil. And it is best when served by a Glock 21.
Link Posted: 10/9/2001 8:44:06 PM EDT
[red]No it isn't; not always; and .40 S&W. The 10MM is a great cartridge, but, not THE answer.[/red] And the .40 what Whorf? red]"beca sue"? This is the same old/tired/ crappy argument ad nauseum. Isn't it? Ask the Border Patrol, no, TELL a Border Patrol Agent he's shooting a distaff caliber...yeah, why don't ya do that, Carrots? Their choice of firearm and caliber is the Beretta .40. Not a 10MM anything. I believe they chose the caliber because it works. [/red][/b] Ahhhhhhhhhh..... Here we go. "ASK SO AND SO ABOUT THE CALLIBER THEY CHOOSE!!!! BECASUE THEY KNOW BEST!!!" Sorry. I choose to think for myself.. Something rather hard to fathom for a star-trek dork. Tell the tribbles I say hi. [red]...so, a .357SIG would be even MORE of a female type round than a regular .40, right, Carrots?[/red][/b] No el-Retardo. The .357 utilizes a higher velocity, thus creates a better shock- while giving penetration to boot. Wake up son. [red]...even if those stats are true, when you touch off a full power .357 Magnum revolver, there is NO DOUBT in your mind you've just fired a GUN! [/red][/b] Er, yeah Captain Kirk. So what does that have to do with the consistent SAAMI downloading of the .357? [red]...different rounds for different jobs(see below). These two aren't really very similar at all. Kinda like girl #1 & girl #2---which brings to mind---a 3rd alternative---girl #1.5! A great mixture of the other two rolled into one, a compromise. A .40 Caliber Girl...yeah, that's it! A .40 Caliber Girl!!! Sometimes the best choice is a compromise. Better to have a bit of both than none of either one. [/red] Sorry. Some people just aren't suited for the genere of insults. Don't hate me becasue I get laid. And please don't use it to try and justify the .40. It reallt makes no sense, and i'm pretty drunk.
Link Posted: 10/9/2001 9:11:49 PM EDT
I'm not sure how Star Trek ties into your rant, but it makes for an entertaining read.
Link Posted: 10/9/2001 9:12:07 PM EDT
Dissipator556: Which .40 loads are you talking about--135 gr. 1350 fps? About the hottest thing I've seen in .40 is the Corbon which is 135 gr. @ 1325 fps. Unless you load your own. I've got a 9mm, .357 magnum, 357 sig, .40, and a Glock 20 10mm. If I had my choice I would go with the Glock 20 10mm for all-around personal defense(# of shots, power, etc.). I'm also very fond of my SigPro 357Sig/.40 with the only drawback being the crappy 10 shot rule. When you compare the ft. lbs. you'll find that most of the self-defense .40 and .45 ammo puts out around 400 ft. lbs or so, the 357Sig and .45+p in the mid-500's, and the 10mm 600-700! I've got some ProLoad 10mm (155 gr.@1350 fps.)rounds in my Glock right now that pump out 627 ft. lbs. Someone mentioned earlier that their favorite load was the .45 230 gr. Hydra-shok. Well, here are the pathetic numbers from the Federal website -- .45 Hydrashok 230 gr. bullet @ 850 fps produces a measly 370 ft. lbs.! For any that are interested, the formula for figuring foot lbs. is: velocity squared * weight(grns) divided by 450,400.
Link Posted: 10/9/2001 9:24:01 PM EDT
So, my Forum friend called I_Luv_Carrots, you've been drinking, which would explain why you continue to spell "because" as "beca sue"... The drink of choice would be, what?, Saurian Brandy? Klingon Ale? Or, as Scotty once said in a stupor, "...it's green."? I'm having fun 'witchu', bruzza!!! Whatever the case may be, and, if it's beer you're drinking, I hope it's at least a case... I don't insult people, I tell the Truth, which tends to piss people off. People such as yourself. I don't have time for insults. I'll listen to yours with amusement, but, I'll also tell you what I think. And, I don't fabricate stories or condescend when speaking to other folks. Had you the intelligence you purport to have, I would think your being drunk would be something to be avoided; name calling would be beneath you; typos would betray a weakness and you'd use spell check...especially 'beca sue' you spelled 'Worf' incorrectly! We do agree to disagree agreeably. And that 10MM GLOCK is quite the pistol/ammo combination. If Beretta would adopt the 10MM in the Cougar platform with its rotating bbl., hmmm.... "Live long and Proseltyze"
Link Posted: 10/10/2001 7:48:17 AM EDT
**With the 9mm I can lay suppresive fire causing my enemy to seek cover and if I hit him fine. If I don't I can still be firing while I am running like hell!!!!** Ah! the poster child for Gun Control..... Rich
Link Posted: 10/10/2001 7:53:16 AM EDT
My opinion: .45 hands down.
Link Posted: 10/10/2001 8:22:44 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/10/2001 8:19:53 AM EDT by OLY-M4gery]
Originally Posted By I_Luv_Carrots:
Originally Posted By ARben: Forgot to mention: the FBI switched to the .40 after having problems with the 10mm smith pistols. The .40 came around just as the FBI was reavaluating the Smith 10mm reliability. Seeing an easy out, they decided on using the .40 saying that that was what they really wanted. In truth, the .40 was very close to the FBI's 10mm load. It had nothing to do with the comfort level of female agents.
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Balderdash motherfucker. Swamy says you own a .40, and are trying to convince yourself it was "designed" that way to make yourself feel better. The FBI used full house 10's- The female agents couldn't take it- so they downloaded it. They figured out that if they were going to download it, why use that long case- so... VIOLA! The bastard red-headed stepchild of the 10MM was born. The .40 S&W ... and dem'z da facts brutha.
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Yeah, ok. Untrue. The 10mm the FBI issued was downloaded before it was issued to field agents. The testing including having actual agents shoot the different rounds tested. Only .45 and 10mm were found to be acceptable. .45 performed below standard in 1 or 2 of the tests, penetration through glass, and other barricades (IIRC). 10mm passed al the tests, some just barely and on some tests .45 actually did better. 10mm was rated by the agents in the testing as to slow for follow up shots and as having to much recoil. So after the FBI adopted 10mm, based on full power 10mm rounds, they immediatley asked for a downloaded version. Remember the FBI are investigators...... when the surveyed agants about what the wanted in a duty handgun they got all type of goofy responses. "phenomanal knock down power, super hi-cap mags, no recoil, lightweight, and easy to conceal under a suit". Were the kinds of responses they got from 1 agent. Kinda would be a good weapon exept I think they were asking for phasers. Plus the S+W 10mm they used was redesigned because the FBI wanted a decocker. Sometimes the decocker locked up the weapon when used. So much so that they had to send locked up guns back to S+W to get them to function again. So the FBI didn't like 10mm or the weapons they were issued to use it in.
Link Posted: 10/10/2001 8:46:36 AM EDT
Alot of people think that cartridge size doesn't matter as long as you are accurate and comfortable shooting said cartridge. So... all things being equal in that opinion. Would you rather have a 30 round mag in your AR-15 or a 20-round mag? In that case 9mm outguns .45 & 10mm again? Both .45 & 10mm come in pistols that are excellent examples of quality and reliable firearms. The rounds themselves are also very effective and reliable. The military had choices of 30-06,308 and .223. They chose the lighter bullet. They had to choose between .45 or 9mm. They chose the lighter bullet. Both choices are also the choices of many military services worldwide. I wonder why? blackeye [uzi] Poster Child for Gun Control and Proud of It!!!
Link Posted: 10/10/2001 9:21:24 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/10/2001 9:18:48 AM EDT by stanfosd]
Well, I would definately say that transfered energy is more important than penetration. I want a bullet that can completely knock someone on their a$$ rather than pierce for one reason....They cannot shoot me while flying through the air. It may not be a one shot kill, but usually I am looking to incapacitate anyay. I saw some rounds somewhere (sorry, dont remember where) that had incredibly large hollow points. The 9mm was putting out something like 590ft.lbs. and the .45 was over 700 ft.lbs. The 10mm looks really nice, but I am unfamilliar with these rounds, so I will stay quiet about them. All in all, I would say punch and capacity. BTW: Blackeye, take this into consideration: How much does 300 rounds of .308 weigh compared to 300 rounds of .223? The .223 also has the gift of that interesting tumbling pattern, while the .308 tends to punch right through targets, thus transferring very little of its stopping power.
Link Posted: 10/10/2001 9:31:01 AM EDT
I have both 9mm and .45 cal handguns. I would prefer to have a .45 in a gunfight. I can shoot my Glock 21 more accurately than my Glock 19. To me accuracy is the most important thing in a gunfight. I would also feel a lot better knowing that I shot the bad guy with a bigger bullet. That said, I am glad that I have both handguns, since the 9mm is better for CCW. I don't care for .40 or .357 Sig, since I don't see why we need any more calibers. IMHO these calibers were designed by people who do not like the idea of civillians using military ammunition (maybe I am a conspiracy nut). -SS
Link Posted: 10/10/2001 9:51:15 AM EDT
Originally Posted By I_Luv_Carrots: The Correct answer is the 10MM. Always. No other. Not the .40, which is merely a "female" version of the 10MM (A Shortened and downloaded 10MM becasue female agents couldn't handle the 10)
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As sad as it is to say, 10mm is on it's way out. Full pressure 10mm loads are harder to come by, and the low pressure 10mm loads are losing out to the .40S&W. There's nothing wrong with .40S&W. I certainly wouldn't want to be shot with it. God Bless Texas
Link Posted: 10/10/2001 10:13:47 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/10/2001 10:11:36 AM EDT by dissipator556]
I'll second that- I sure as hell wouldn't want to be shot by the .40! Somebody (ie STANFOSD)has watched a few too many movies when he thinks that any handgun round is going to make the target go flying through the air. People don't do that, even when hit by a 12 gauge- yes, I can say that with all certainty. Skip the urban legends and stick to reality- Also, the 10mm doesn't dump as much energy as the .40 because it is more likely to blow right through your target and kill an innocent bystader- CAN YOU SAY "NEGLIGENCE?" [marines]
Link Posted: 10/10/2001 10:28:55 AM EDT
"Knock down power" is a myth. It's the Newtons's law thing. For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. It order for a bullet to have enough force to knock down a man, it would have had enough force to Knock down the shooter as well when he touched it off. Couple that, with the loss of velocity in distance shots, and the shootee will feel less of an impact than you did when you shot it. People most generally fall down after being shot out of mental conditioning that that's what you are suppose to do when shot. Cops have died from otherwise non-leathal gunshot wound, because they have been conditioned to believe that if you get shot, you are suppose to fall down and die. I've seen deer run away after taking a 7 Mag hit. They didn't run far, but It didn't knock them down either. And for those of you who have never shot a 7 mag, it gets meat on both ends..:)
Link Posted: 10/10/2001 12:17:58 PM EDT
Well, Stan, it looks like you've been watching a little too much Miami Vice. Bullets don't send people flying through the air, nor will a handgun bullet knock someone on their ass unless they're really off-balance or just so surprised that they fall down on their own. As far as the US going to .223 and 9mm, it's not because they are more potent calibers. We bullied everyone else into going to .223 because we wanted a lighter weapons system that would allow the troops to put more lead downrange. That's an oversimplification, but it's close enough. .223 ball does tumble in tissue and cause nasty wounds, but its performance can be very sporadic and seems to vary greatly depending on the barrel length and the range to the target. As far as going to the 9mm, we did that because it's the NATO standard. 9mm ball is a notoriously crappy load against humans. The military is not allowed to use the 'whiz-bang' +P+ hollowpoints except for anti-terrorist use. Contrary to popular belief, .308 military ball does not just punch through in a straight line. It also tumbles and deforms as it passes through tissue. Some .308 ball, notably the West German steel jacketed, fragments almost completely in tissue, dumping a LOT more energy than any .223 load. Yes, .308 is heavier, but I'd rather carry an M1A and a load of .308 ball than an M4 and a load of .223 ball any day. If I was allowed to use a good hollowpoint or softpoint that might change, since you get much more consistent performance with those loads in a .223 than you do with either ball round. And what the hell does the size of the hollow cavity in a bullet have to do with the muzzle energy? I think you've been watching too many movies, my friend. They're for entertainment, not education. Try reading some actual texts on terminal ballistics instead of watching Lethal Weapon and Terminator.
Link Posted: 10/10/2001 1:13:48 PM EDT
Once again stepping into the room...gentlemen good day and virtual drinks of your choice all around..........best caliber for me--9mm--becuase that's what I own and I am comfortable with my Hammer (yep it's a ruger) And the comfort of thirty round magazines (14.95 @ cheaperthandirt) is something to make me sleep well.....
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