Hey stanfosd...


 
   I was referring to lighter weight aspect of being able to put more rounds in a magazine due to its smaller size. That was the point of the post. The smaller size of 9mm allows one to put more in a magazine. More bullets = More shots = More dead mfo's

Get it...Got it...Good

Methinks this will never be settled [rolleyes]

It's a well known fact that a lot of LEO are lousy marksmen.  They are just making up for their lack of skill with brute force.

I've seen this topic beat to death over at The Firing Line and the jury is in.  Shot placement is more important than caliber.

Wouldn't this be a good topic for the new Handguns Forum?

I like the 45ACP.  Hits you like a flying manhole cover and is less likely to exit the body.  Exit wounds = energy loss.

Exiting rounds can also hit someone else.

Hmmm, Ill take a star-trek phaser.  So beat that guys.

God damn.  I've been on this board for maybe 10 months, and have seen this post about 7-8 times.

The best defensive round is the one you have on you at the time you need a weapon.  If that happens to be a fist, thats the best round.  If it happens to be a .22LR, then thats the best one.  If it happens to be .50AE, then thats the best round.

I will only buy what I am comfortable with.  I easily fire 5 rounds from a .22LR  pistol in very rapid succession and keep them in a nice tight hole at close-medium range, and can fire about the entire magazine off and keep them in a group only slightly larger.  I can do the same with 2 rounds from about any of the "standard" pistol calibers, 9mm, 40, and .45, and Im getting decent at 3 on the 9mm.

If you can survive 5 .22LR Stingers, 3 9mm's, or 2 .40's or .45's center mass, then you deserve to kill me anyways, because you're obviously invincible.  If not that, youre wearing body armor, in which case I will aim for your head :-)

a .22LR will do the same thing as .50AE if you place it right.  I'd rather have the skill of shot placement and a hi-capacity 9mm over a .45 ANY DAY.  Unless of course its a Para Ord P14 :-)

What difference does the "Brute Force" make, if you don't hit the target? I'd say the opposite is correct. It's the High Cap 9 bunch that tend to feel safer with the "Spray and Pray" method.
I agree that shot placement is critical in incapacitating an aggressor. A couple of well placed, deep penitrating x-ring hits will do the trick. So why do you need 16 rounds to do that?
I'm a Police Firearms Instructor, here in the great state of Texas. I'll agree that there are some Cops out there who are barely able to pass qualification. BUT.....I also lend a hand in teaching people to shoot for their CHL. Be AFRAID, Be VERY Afraid.....While the average John Doe CHL Holder can stand and punch holes in paper, how many times has he been in a crisis situation and dealing with a massive dose of adenaline pumping through his veins?
At least Most cops have experienced the Adrenaline rush, and are better suited to control it. In fact, there are several training courses available to Cops to teach them to shoot under stress. Try this: Next time you go out to shoot, try running 20 or 30 yards, then clear leather and try to hit the x-ring. I've seen "expert" marksmen that had trouble doing it.  Bottom line is, Cops are people. No Big red "S" on their chests. We get get hurt, we bleed, we have feelings, we get mad, we laugh, and we cry. Just like everybody else. We aren't emotionally ammune to the BS we deal with daily. We represent society. And just like others in society that are armed, some of us can shoot, some can't. Those of us who can, don't rely on High cap pistols to get us out of a jam. A couple of well placed shots will do.
Remember one thing. I drill this home to my students.  You are responsible for EVERY round you send down range. You might be totally justified in dropping some turd, but the rounds you pop that miss, and take out a bystander will come back to haunt you. By the time the media, and courts are through with you, you'll curse the day you bought that gun. And God help you if the bystander you hit is a child. I can't tell you how many times I've went into Bar fights, or crowd situations, knowing that my sidearm was more of a liability to me, than an asset. There's no way I could touch off a round in there, unless it was a last ditch, point blank shot.
Carry what you can competantly shoot. Magazine capacity is NOT a substitute for marksmanship.
A couple of well placed 38 special rounds will beat the hell out of 15 rounds of 10mm that don't hit the mark.

Rich

I really like the 9mm; I own two of them and would like to get a third. 1st= Taurus pt 99; 2nd= S&W Sigma. I want a Glock model 26, nice and compact. Now, the caliber I LOVE is the 45 ACP in a 1911. HERE'S HOW I SEE IT; A 9mm is the best round for most situations; good penetration, good wound cavity, 18+ rounds if your pre ban, very controlable recoil, however I fear a gut shot on an obese individual will fail to penetrate far enough to incapacitate. That's where the 45 ball comes in; total penetration and a reliable .45 inch cavity. The last word in defensive handgun rounds is........(insert drum roll here)...........THE 10mm!! Nothing tames the 10 like the Glock model 20 and no other round (including the 357 mag.) delivers the energy that the 10mm does. My buddy owns 2 of them and carries.............a Colt Gold Cup for defense. Why? The Glock misfires the last round in the clip every time while the 1911 NEVER fails to fire ........... ever! Back to 45's. The 1911 has cycled more reliable rounds than all other gun models combined. The 45 is a proven performer for almost a century, not something you can say for some 'newer' rounds created so certain law enforcement groups can boast about how modern they are. Can you buy ammo for your gun in East Jesus Idaho? (Might be important if that small outpost in Egypt doesn't have them either) Now, time for some bonafide criticism of the 45. It is not a high pressure round like the 9mm Para or 9mm Kurtz, so avoid HP or 'safety' ammo designed not to penetrate. In 45 cal with the low muzzle velocity of the ACP, also avoid compact barrels that drop the muzzle velocity from just adequate to below adequate. Let's review: A good defensive sidearm must handle well, create a wound cavity thay is able to incapacitate the individual regardless of obesity or heavy winter garmentry AND never fail to fire and cycle. The 1911 seems to fill this bill the best. My bias; I ride a Harley and drive a Jeep, so the 1911 fits right in. All BS aside, shot placement matters too, but if I was able to place within 2" in every situation why wouldn't I just head shoot with a 22 Ruger MK II? Coming back to common sense, the teachings of Yoda, and the quote I tell all my trainees; just remember, "You have time to react or time to panic, but you don't have time for both."-bermudacat
(I've been very good this year so Santa is bringing me a Springfield 1911)

Hey Blackeye, The difference between 9mm ball at 1200fps and 45cal ball at 950fps is that the 45 leaves a hole .070 larger, or 20%bigger.  .223 at 2900 fps is an entirely different kettle of fish. Remember, it's velocity squared, so if your not talking more than 150fps delta, it's not that critical. Once the difference gets to 300fps, NOW your talking some serious energy. Coupled with the fact that .223 is barely stable in air, we now have a special case. I'll always take 45 ball over 9mm ball and .223 ball over anything under........well, lets just say, because I've done this experiment pesonally;  .223 ball blows the snot out of an antifreeze jug MUCH more dramatically that a Grizzly BMG 50 ball does. Trust me.

That is not really true.  In actuality police agencies only do qualification, not marksmenship tests.  Additionally, the results of these tests aren't released to the public for liability reasons.  We have no definitive way of determining how well or poorly police officers shoot on average.

The move towards .45 and .40 came after police agencies used 9mm handguns for well over a decade and found their stopping power somewhat lacking.  There is also [i]significant[/i] anecdotal and statistical data indicating that persons shot with 9mm weapons were far more likely to continue fighting or fleeing when a larger caliber most certainly would have ended the confrontation.  The anecdotes include the Miami shootout and the North Hollywood bank robbery.





"Do what you will,
just don't believe all the light and fast hype."

Not true.  Bullet is very stable in flight, hence the great accuracy of the AR15/M16 series weapons.



A .223 to a milk jug is very impressive indeed, and I'm not disputing the stopping power of non-penetrator .223 rounds, but more impressive than a .50 BMG?  Me thinks not.  I've personally blown apart 55 gallon steel drums that were filled with water and then sealed with the .50 BMG.  One slug hit will split the drum in 2 after blowing most of the water out of the top of the drum.  The explosive force of energy from a .223 will in no way even compare to a quarter-pound .50 caliber projectile going 2,400 fps.




"Do what you will,
just be a little more realistic."

The north hollywood bank robbery situation would not have been remidied by a .45 instead of the 9mm. Remember, they had body armor! Don't forget the fact that most PDs used 147 subsonic ammo in their 9mms; a round that is much less effective than something in the +p 115 grn range (like corbons). Based on actual shootings, the 115 grn corbons produced 90% one shot stops. This is on par with the best 45s and getting close to the .357. If we are talking proven fight stopping handgun calibers, the .357 wins hands down.

Don't get .40 envy there Carrots. Me thinks someone bought a 10mm and feels guilty now that it's a flop. Sorry for you, but there is nothing feminine about a 135gr. slug going 1350 fps. Do you really think that the 10mm offers that much more, considering it has the size/bullk/capacity of a .45? The 9mm is the real feminine load, not the .40. The .40 is hot shit baby.

LETS HAVE A REALITY CHECK HERE. THE MAJORITY HAS NO PROPENSITY FOR THE TRUTH (Or; The masses are asses) The 40 S&W is a lame attempt for marketers to give 'the autorities' something they can pretend is special 'We have one and you don't, HaHa!' But let's face the facts; the 40 is so new it doesn't have a track record that can compare to the 45 or 9mm. The 10mm in a G20 has an easier recoil than a Colt Lawman MkII in 357, while delivering more energy. Let's summarize: The the 40 S&W has an equivalent muzzle velocity to a 9mm, but a diameter which will cause it to not penetrate as well, occupies the same amount of space in the magazine as a 10mm ( .40 = 10mm) but doesn't have the energy, much harder to find in high capacity due to the fact that it's age. A good age comparisine would be while the 9mm and the 45 were making out at the drive in, the 40 S&W was pissing in it's diapers. The 40 S&W is for guys who first truck is a Toyota Tundra while the rest of us have all been driving Fords and Chevys. If it makes you feel special, fine, but there are only two things in the middle of the road................. or three if you include the 40 S&W. (Note: US Marshals can cary any gun they want to; most carry 45's and 10mm's. Oh, except for the ones in skirts, modern marketing encourages them to carry............you do the research.

Also, the 10mm doesn't dump as much energy as the .40 because it is more likely to blow right through your target and kill an innocent bystader- CAN YOU SAY "NEGLIGENCE?"

WHERE DOES OVERPENETRATION COME INTO THE PICTURE WHEN 80% OF ALL ROUNDS IN A GUNFIGHT MISS THEIR INTENDED TARGET? Big game hunters claim to incapacitate an animal, your bullet must make two holes. The first one enters, guess where the second one comes from. BESIDES, HOW CAN TWO EQUALLY SIZED PROJECTILES SEE THE SLOWER ONE DUMPING MORE ENERGY? If you said dump equal energy, I might have to ponder your point but everyone knows that the secondary wound cavity increases with velocity. Do you work for S&W?

To scare someone really bad:
1 A pack of blackcats
2 A nasty look like William Forsythe
3 A big bore handgun that you're scared of.
4 Threaten to tell your Mom
5 Tell em you'll beat their ass as you spill beer on their shoes.

To stop them;
1 One accurate shot anywhere in the face, any caliber. In the case of delayed relief continue dosage with lead sedative until patient fully relaxes

Hey Ronin, when I fire my 30-06, the bullet accelerates to 2600fps over 26 inches, when it strikes the 'target', it is asked to decelerate immediatly as it mushrooms. Multiply energy by velocity by inches for acceleration, then divide that number by the number of inches for deceleration (minus velocity of exit, to the 1/2 power, right? e=mv squared). Can you now see why when I shoot an animal that approximates my weight, it appears that someone 'yanked the carpet' from beneath it's feet when it merely kicked my well prepared shoulder back?

Quoted:
Coupled with the fact that .223 is barely stable in air, we now have a special case.
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Not true. Bullet is very stable in flight, hence the great accuracy of the AR15/M16 series weapons.



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I'll always take 45 ball over 9mm ball and .223 ball over anything under........well, lets just say, because I've done this experiment pesonally; .223 ball blows the snot out of an antifreeze jug MUCH more dramatically that a Grizzly BMG 50 ball does. Trust me.
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A .223 to a milk jug is very impressive indeed, and I'm not disputing the stopping power of non-penetrator .223 rounds, but more impressive than a .50 BMG? Me thinks not. I've personally blown apart 55 gallon steel drums that were filled with water and then sealed with the .50 BMG. One slug hit will split the drum in 2 after blowing most of the water out of the top of the drum. The explosive force of energy from a .223 will in no way even compare to a quarter-pound .50 caliber projectile going 2,400 fps.

With all due respect, it's common knowledge that the A-1 with it's 12 in 1 twist and 45gr slug was compromised in cold temperatures, ie. denser meduim to penetrate. The .223 is not an inherently stable round, which is why Duncan Long attributed the letality in combat to the instability it experiences in flesh. I realize that 223 is used increasingly in target shooting, but do you think it will ever be able to Compete at Wimbleton? I shot an antifreeze jug, not a milkjug, big difference in cross section. I'll shoot a 55 gal next trip, thanks for the tip (it's my buddies gun). Remember, the 50 is supposed to carry it's energy, not dump it. Once again, spend a buck-fifty and shoot an antifreeze jug with you BMG.........it's not the least bit climactic. I'm pretty frickin' real.

All that one hss to dispell the "bullet knockdown power" myth is to watch the video "Deadly Weapons". A hit with a .308 a 3 feet did not cause an individual wearing level III body armor to fall over, even after stading balance on 1 foot.

Here is a physics related article about "knockdown".
[url]users.binary.net/thomcat/Knockdn.html[/url]

OK, after 3 pages of back and forth aurguments over best handgun defensive rounds, we still haven't come up with "THE" one. And we won't. If you're looking for true one shot stops, practice your head shots.
In actuallity, the Handgun was never designed to be a primary weapon. It's best used to get someone off you at close range. If you know you're walking into a Sh*t storm, pick up that 12 guage on the way out the door. They still haven't produced a better close quarters anti personnel weapon than that scatter gun. Have you ever seen the wound channel of a 12 guage slug at close range? Now that's a one shot stop!!! If I know I've got some one-eyed, crack headed, war axe wielding turd trying to break though my front door, I can't think of anything else I'd rather have in my hands that that pump gun. Hey, he can't chase you if he don't have legs...:)

Rich

LOL! and for my next trick I'll post one more AK vs. AR deal.

once again, i really didnt mean this to become a giant pissin contest between calibers OR another AK vs AR thing.  some folks have answered my originial question and i appreciate that.  

thanks again

Actually, it's 1 turn in 12 inches, not 12 turns in 1 inch.  Furthermore, the slug that was originally used by the US military was the M193 [b]55gr[/b] ball round.  

Additionally, the .223 isn't a major contender at Wimbledon because it is not a long range cartridge.  The .308 Winchester isn't a common find in 1,000 yard matches either.  .223 is the preferred cartridge of service rifle shooters, because it can compete at 600 yards and closer.




"Do what you will,
just educate thyself."