Someone else to blame for this incident may be the comand staff and administrators of this dept.. Maybe they did not require good training and did not care. Maybe they did not care or know about less lethal options. Maybe if the command staff would have required more realistic and decision making training this would not have happened. Maybe if the command staff had known about and issued a less lethal force options such as a bean bag round this would not have happened. But on a lot of dept. the people that are leaders should not be. And it is the public and the patrol officers that get it hung on them.

I pulled out an old can of what is called
"Federal Streamer No. 280", it's a Liquid Tear Gas (CN) Repeater. When I was in my final years of the Military this is what was issued. I don't know even if there is any pressure left in the can. I've had it since 1975. It had a range of about 10 - 15 feet and was "terribly" effective. Any LEO's still use this stuff? Can says for "Law Enforcement Use Only" and was classed as a "Lethal Weapon". I carried the CN, "Prosecutor Baton" and the .45 Auto plus other stuff. I have a hunch that it is probably better than "Pepper Spray".

Maybe the cop should have asked the perp for a sample of the pipe, taken it to the lab and had tests run on it to see if it was steel or aluminum. galvanized? seamless?  Maybe the cop should have used his x-ray vision to analyze the steel in the 1/2 a second he had to react to stop the perp from splitting the victims skull wide open.

Im embarrassed to admit this but here it is:  The one time I have gotten my ass kicked while on duty was by a 67 year old man.  It was a 'routine' auto accident with a dispute.  I told the old guy(aggressor) to stay away from the other driver (about 20 years old, skinny little kid).  After telling the old guy 6 or 7 times to cut the crap out and sit in his car, he came after me!  The first thoughts through my head were:

1. This is pretty funny! Check this old guy out!.....until I realized he was serious and thought:
2. Oh my God, Im 26 and he's about 60, how is this going to look?  Who is going to believe this?

Instead of protecting myself, I was worried about making the headlines of the Daily News.
I paid for it with a sprained ankle, sprained wrist, broken 2 smallest fingers on one hand from punching the guy, and a fractured collarbone from when he tackled me to the floor and landed on top of me.....all 237 pounds of him....

Oh did I forget to mention that he was 6'6 and 237 pounds?  Built like a brick shithouse?
Im 5'9 , 170 pounds, and in very good shape, but I couldnt get this guy down, no matter what I did(he hit me first and he hit me harder).

I actually held back at first because I didnt want to hurt the old guy.  My stupidity.  I was grappling with the guy so the mace was useless(I didnt have the time or the free hand).  Then he dragged ME to the floor, and I had to practically rip his nuts off to get him off me.  Yes, I actually grabbed his ballbag and squeezed/punched as hard as I could.  Punching him in the face/head didnt affect him except to piss him off even more because I broke his glasses.

This guy could have easily taken my gun right out of my holster while we were rolling on the floor and killed me with my own gun.  He was just TOO DAMN BIG for me.  I was lucky to not have been killed.

My biggest mistake was letting it get to that point, thinking that he would listen when I told him to cut the crap out.  I shouldnt have been worried about what it would look like later, what Monday Morning Quarterbacks like most of you would think.  I should have been worried about protecting myself.  But instead, I was worried about being second guessed later.

Im 30 now,and I wont make THAT mistake again.  When someone wants to fight/resist, I take THEM down before they take ME down.  Its NOT police brutality.  I DO NOT have to get my ass kicked before I defend myself.  If someone has the balls to challange a uniformed officer to a fight, then he is a serious problem, not to be taken lightly.

A monkey could put holes in a piece of paper at the range. Why dont you guys try the real thing before you talk? Something that moves, reacts, talks and could hurt you back.  You have no idea of what you are talking about, so just keep it shut.

BTW, that upstanding citizen Rodney King was arrested AGAIN(like the 12th time) since the LA incident.

Oh yeah, save the flame for someone else.....

Hunduh, It's kind of like trying to teach physics to a 4 year old. They have no conception of the reality. But I agree with your post.

Pakrat is right on with this one.

And for those of you who think pepper spray is the answer to every encounter, think again.  Pepper spray varies in effectiveness from one person to the next, and does not stop any action "immediately". In a lethal force situation, pepper spray is a horrible answer to the threat.

I can say for certain that a determined individual can "fight through it", as many law enforcement agencies are trained to do just this. Before my agency allows us to carry OC pepper spray, we must be exposed our selves, and face a simulated threat. All of the 50 people I was certified with were able to determine a threat, what level it was, and deal with that threat accordingly. All after being exposed to a healthy dose of OC. The typical scenario lasted 3 minutes, and in that time an agent had identified a lethal threat, fired several times, unjammed a malfunctioning weapon, and called for assistance, without succumbing to the OC. Not an advertisement for the OC vendors out there, but it is the truth.

Hunduh, I think you're overreacting a little here. I posted this topic in hopes of learning if there are options in cases like this. After hearing from the LEO's, I'm inclined to believe there are less options than I had previously thought. I'm not a LEO and I have no experience whatsoever in that regard, so for me this thread is more educational than anything else. For one thing, I always assumed these old guys were a pushover. Now I know this is not the case, so I learned something. I guess the old saying "never judge a book by the cover" applies here.

I'm also beginning to realize that it's one thing to be in this kind of situation once or twice in your life, but it's another thing to deal with this every day. I'm now thinking if LE was my vocation, I think I would be inclined to do what was necessary to ensure my safety. I certainly want to be around to see my kids grow up.

In the end, if the son hadn't been such an asshole in the first place -- if he had left and stayed away -- most likely nothing would have happened (at least that day). The son made it happen. By being there, he put the LEO into the position of having to make that decision -- one both the LEO and the son may regret for some time to come.

Why do some folks still want to make Beck out to be a poster child for gunowners? He was a thief, a liar, and a cop killer. I say a cop killer until someone can show me ballistic, crimescene, and trajectory data that would suggest it was fratacide. If Beck is the best example you can come up with, you are really hurting for hero's.
BTW, again, you cannot deploy less lethal such as bean bag rounds when you are alone. You must have an overwatch with lethal force ready to respond. And when someone is about to get his head bashed in is not the time to be rummaging in the trunk for the LL shotgun.

Come on all you other LEO's out there......Dont you think that we should let the public in on our little secret.....our ability so stop time, take a step back and analyze the situation to make a better informed decision on what we should do next.  After all, its not like we have just .5 seconds to react or be killed (or save someone from being killed).

We also have plenty of time to run back to the RMP and get the bean bag shotgun, or the OC paintball gun or taser.  Maybe we should just carry all of this stuff on our gunbelts.  Carry the shotgun everytime we get out of the RMP, see if people would like that better.

We should also let people in on the x-ray glasses.  You know, so when people reach under their seat or reach into their waistband or jacket its not like its any surprise of whats coming out.  Wallet?  Gun?  We know way ahead of time.

Lastly, in case all of you didnt know, my Smith and Wesson 5946 Police Model is equipped with a
selector switch that enables me to choose from live rounds or bean bag rounds.  I even have a few of those special bullets used for shooting pipes and guns out of peoples hands.

And Matja, that reply wasnt meant for you, you have legitimate questions and have responded to our(LEO's)answers.  My nasty replies are meant for the cop-bashers who are ignorant of the facts before they open their traps.  No offense meant to you.  Sorry if it sounded that way.

Hunduh, thanks a lot. I really did learn something here.

One hang up with that:  When you level a weapon at anyone you want to know what results to expect when you press the trigger.  Most departments want dedicated weapons for less lethal applications.  We are not allowed to have bean bags because the last thing that we want to happen in the heat of the moment is OOPS!  We can drill and drill and drill (well, we can on our own time), but you want to know that when you are intending to deploy a less lethal that you employ less lethal.  The opposite holds true also.  If you need to stop a violent, lethal threat you need to have lead under the pin.  If some NEEDS to be shot (Clint Smith's famous quote on 60 minutes) they need to be shot NOW.  A bean bag in that situation can get someone innocent killed. Basically, since the situation is stressful, the last thing you want is to second guess which setting your selector is on (rifle or less lethal) or if you really but a bean bag in the chamber.

I may be a cop, but I won't close ranks or make appologies for a bad decision.

How many of you others use the RCM?

Our use of force is clearly spelled out and dependant on the subjects behaviors.  It covers everything from strong voice tones to lethal force.

Just recently, in my town, in my district a transient tried to forcefully take beer from a store patron.  The subj. got shot.  Justified.

17 year old uses a knife to end a fist fight. claims self defense. Aggrivated Battery.

Gang banger's friend is held down with a gun to his head.  Gang banger comes out his front door shooting, kills one and wounds one.  Justified.

We do investigate thoroughly the entire situation.  If it looks like a legal shooting, then it is called such.  If it looks fishy, people are arrested.

Before any one whines about shooting someone over a six pack, think about this.  If I walk up to you threaten you (verbally or physically) and ask for your wallet, would you really give me your wallet if you were not in fear of "great bodily harm or death"?  Many would not part with thier belongings unless they were afraid of death or great bodily harm.

pat

Hunduh, if your remarks where aimed at me let me clarify something. I have been involved in civilian law-enforcement for the last eighteen years. The last ten I have been a firearms instructor. I have trained and trained with officers,deputies,troopers and agents from various size dept from all across the country. I have seen some dept that still use the NRA PPC course to qualify with. Some still use the FBI one hand stance. Some do not have any training with reactive targets. And a lot of departments do not get any decision making shooting training like the f.a.t.s. or reart. And I am sure you would agree that the best life and death decisions we make come from training-training-training. You apparently come from a big dept that does  good training. But even in this day and age of vicarious liability some dept. have a poor policy regarding firearms training. I have seen more of this than I would like to. As far as the less lethal issue goes I have seen dept that their force continuum was presence-hands on-deadly force. I have seen dept that did not use batons,asp,ppct or OC. The decision to not use these was usually made by someone in the command staff that had their head up their ass or had the old school attitude. Or by a bean counter that is worried about the budget. As an example the Colorado State Patrol was just certified to use OC about a year ago. I think you would agree that the OC is a great tool in the force continuum, if it is present. What I was getting at is that these options should be available. I was not second guessing the officers actions since I was not there and don't know the totality of the circumstances. I have been involved in an OIS and I know what is like to be second guessed. Chill out Hundah you could give people the impression that L.E.O. have a propensity to fly off the handle and get carried away.

Ah yes, the "thin blue line" closes ranks and leaps to the defense of the "bother" in this incident.  Nice to see such loyalty in these times.

But, not surprisingly, you didn't read the article close enough.  I have included it above for your review.  The officer WAS NOT ALONE.  Note the words "officers" and "They found" in the quote above.  For the slow, that means more than one was present.

Some "wonderful" examples of the dangerous nature and split second decision making required for police work were included for my study.  Allow me to give you some examples of other police activities.

-An officer while making a traffic stop here is struck by another car and knocked to the ground.  He gets up and draws his weapon, shooting the motorist in the back of head.  The medical examination determines the motorist was in diabetic shock and having a seizure.  Oops..  Nice shot deadeye.

-Officers are called to a home on a "domestic" dispute near here.  After a struggle with the man, they notice he suddenly becomes calm.  Taken to jail and tossed in a cell.  Checking later, he is found dead.  Turns out he was having a reaction to medication he was taking. Nice going, solved that problem.

-In Georgia, because of small town abuse, town and county officers are required to be state licensed to operate radar.  A probate judge notices a large number of "pacing" tickets where the officer says he was following the speeder in question.  Further investigation determines the "professional" was not licensed, and was using the radar to "get his quota", and writing the ticket to appear otherwise.  The sheriff lamely says "We do the best we can when hiring".  Nothing but the best in law enforcement.

-One night a couple of years ago, there was an shooting of a police officer in a small town here.  Or so it first appeared.  When "backup" arrived, the slightly wounded "brother" said a nearby resident had done the evil deed.  The entire sheriff's department, and all the area state police surrounds the home of the "perp".  Repeated calls on a loudspeaker got no response.  An entry team sent in HAD TO WAKE THE "PERP" UP IN HIS BED!!!  He is thrown in jail without bail for 6 months.  Further investigation by the state crime lab determines the "bother officer" shot himself in hopes of obtaining disability.  Nothing but the best in "law enforcement".

-Recently a small boy drove his motorbike into oncoming traffic and was struck by a truck.  Another motorist comes along.  Moving the motorbike and climbing under the truck, he comforts the dying child.  The radiator is broken and leaking hot fluid on him, so he moves the truck slightly to get it off the child.  The arriving "professional" goes ballastic about the altered "crime scene" and arrests the motorist for "obstruction".  What the hell is wrong with these people, can they be this stupid and still carry guns?

I could go on and on until the character limit is reached.  Yes, it is a "thin blue line".  Thanks be to God for that!  No more bumbling Dudley DoRights and Barney Fifes, thank you very much.

Garand Shooter, I agreed with your first post here.

Less than lethal would be difficult to use in this situation. The 65 yom is attacking a 39 yom with force that could be lethal at any instant, the attack must be stopped or it will be deadly.

There is a 21' rule when dealing with edged weapons. Meaning an average LEO confronted with an average person with a knife shouls be not less than 21' from the person with the knife. They have tested, had actual incidents etc. A person with a knife can cover 21' in appx the same time it takes an officer to draw and fire 1 round. If you only get one round off the agressor could probably still stab the officer just because of their momentun.

I think you would have to consider how much ground a "club" weilder could cover if you tried to OC the "clubber". Since most OC goes appx 15 feet. It would be a bad option. Plus OC makes it difficult for the sprayee to see. It also make them "snot up" and burns the skin. There is also some time from OC application to effect. A determined attacker will be able to continue even if OC'ed. A kinda determined attacker will be able to continue a short while.

Most Less than Lethals are 12 ga shotgun rounds. The shotguns that fire L-T-L's are modified to be visibly differnt than other shotguns, blue stock are common. Most dept.'s that I know about have L-T-L shotguns and rifles of some type as long guns. So they don't have any "live" 12 ga ammo around. Combining a L-T-L and live weapon would be bad, what might happen under stress, adreniline etc. is the operator would fire both weapons. They would "over squeeze" with the L-T-L and there would be a mimicing response with the trigger finger on the other hand. Or they might fire "the wrong weapon".

There were some OC systems that could be mounted on handguns. The same triggger finger could deploy OC or fire the handgun.........judged to be just too likely to fire the wrong round.

Deploying L-T-L usually involves at least 2 officers 1 L-T-L and one "cover officer". This incident sounds like it happened quickly and deploying  L-T-L may not have been feasible. Plus the 65 yom was using deadly force......

Platform389
What's your point?

We all know that there are bad officers out there.  We all know that there are officers out there who make bad decisions.  We all know there are officers who make bad decisions but with good intentions.  Tell me Sir, what profession dosen't have the same problem?  You seem so very apt to point out problems with LEO's but have you ever taken the time to look for the good.

Case in point - Was having coffee with a brother officer Sunday morning about 0230 hrs, when another officer calls for assist, he's got a car stopped with two occupants with a shotgun.  We go roaring down the road, bail out to help.  One guy is in custody already, the other one is being handcuffed.  Turns out officer who drops the assist, is making a simple traffic stop because the motorist is not seat belted and his registration is expired.  Turns out they both have rubber gloves on them, glass cutters, and assorted tools.  Plus they have the shotgun, loaded with extra ammo.  Oh yeah, they got ski masks laying on the seats next to them.

What does this say to you.  They are not breaking in major laws other than the traffic violations but what does this tell you?

continued........

This officer who is keeping his eyes open makes a traffic stop and low and behold, he's got burglary suspects.  This officer was out making a differance, when most of you are asleep curled up next to your loved ones or stuffed animals.  He went the extra step when most officers are trying to find a hole to climb in for the night.  This officer decides to try and make a differance and this night he did.  

This scene is played out time and time again every night - all across america.  Good officers trying to make a differance.  Do you ever hear about this stuff? NO!  Is this stuff ever reported by the liberal punks at the news outlets, NO!  No you ever care to try and see what these guys are doing, day in day out?  Do you ever see what we have to go through to try and make a differance? NO!  Do you ever see the pain they go through when we have to tell mom and dad that their son was killed because he was drinking and driving?  No!  Do you ever see the terror we go through when we respond to a child calling for help because dad/mom is beating the shit out of them? NO!  Ever seen how our guts get ripped out when we see a senseless murder victim and the perp is walking? NO!

Do you ever care?  Or do you look only for the bad?  Have you ever had coffee with these guys?  Have you ever tried to see what goes on inside?  Have you ever decide to try a citizens police academy?  Probably not.  Is it a wonder that we are close knit group?  Is it a wonder that people think we are distant and standoffish?  

This thread was started because someone had questions about use of force.  I think for the most part we have tried to answer the question because we want the civilians out there, to understand what we do.  Because we are there, working and serving our communities.  As usual it turns into a cop bashing session and it saddens me. Because, for the most part, few care to actually step out of their house and get to know those who walk the thin blue line.

As we move to a new era in American history, mayebe it's time to get off the sofa and help us do our job.  Because if we are going to stop this terroism crap, we are going to need everyone's help.  We can't do it alone.  We are not everywhere all the time but you, the citizen is and you can be our eyes and ears.  Maybe it's time........................

**ck it, who really cares, what a line doggy thinks anyway?  I will still be doing my job and you will still be bashing me.  

Have a nice life!

My point?  I would have thought it would have been crystal clear by this time.  Oh well...

The most significant difference between the "bad eggs" in law enforcement and "other professions" is the simple fact LEO's are issued deadly weapons, and are authorized to use them to enforce the law! That fact alone should require personnel selection, training, direct citizen control of police activities, and performance monitoring to the highest levels. I don't think I have to worry about the dog catcher knocking my door down and shooting me in my own house, ya know?  

Innocent TILL PROVEN GUILITY is still the law of the land.  Far too many of your "brothers" think they are Judge Dredd.  Killing one innocent person is not worth the price of all the "thin blue line" combined.

It in clearly obvious neither of us will budge in our opinions.  Shall we shake hands and return to our respective corners, because I am finished with this debate.

This took place across town from me, about 1.6 miles away.  My local PD isn't terribly large, and doesn't make an obtrusive presence in the community.  The two officers I've met have been pleasant and one in particular is a for sure good person.  If you notice that it mentions the officer involved has 2 years of experience prior to just joining the Martinez PD.  
Smith had a prior arrest for violent behavior, and previous and apparently frequent visits from the PD.  Combine that with a newer officer, and I'd imagine that it didn't turn out as happily as either the LEO or Smith would have preferred.  

GWF, I carry a lightwieght piece of aluminum in my car...it's called a bat.  Not the nicest thing in the world to get hit with. (i play softball, don't worry).

In addition to the Martinez PD, within 10 miles are the Sherriff's office, and the California Highway Patrol Office.  So the area tends to be fairly quiet.  Downtown Martinez seems to be the fun spot, but as it's the county seat and the prison, but there are sheriffs, bailiffs, and local PD constantly around.  In spite of this, there are occasional lapses of judgement on people's parts.  Not very many, thank goodness.

Careful Pakrat, in about one minute this guy is going to accuse you of "having the propensity to fly off the handle and get carried away".

Shooter505, Lets see if I have this right: its ok for everyone and their mother to bash cops indescriminately based on the fact that they dont like LEO's or play monday morning quarterback when they werent even there and dont know the whole story; But God forbid an LEO gives his opinion, based on actual job experience, or tries to give the LEO the benefit of the doubt (You know, innocent until proven guilty...ever heard of it, or does that not apply to a LEO?), now all of a sudden we are "flying off the handle" or "closing ranks in defense of our brother".

Give me a break.......

Well I was trying to answer with some generalities and somewhat with the difficulty this situation might have presented, and I rambled a bit.

I was thinking about some of those really poorly designed rifle/shotgun combo weapons, and the pistol mountable OC. I didn't even think about and M-203. The problem there, I haven't seen an M-203/M-16 combo in PD/SO hands. Usually it is either an M-79, a 37/38 mm gas gun that resembles an M-79, or a 6 shot revolver type gas gun. I looked up 40mm L-T-L's and they are available.

Tactically and Liablity wise though I think the training, standard is that if an officer is deploying L-T-L they only have L-T-L "in hand" and they have a "cover officer" with conventional ammo. the L-T-L will still be armed with a holstered sidearm.

I think you may have something there tho' of course AR's for LE are still new, and an M-203 may have some "PC" problems. Of course some people may like it if the L-T-L part of it is publicized.

Hunduh, I look at it like this. There is a small percentage of people in this country and on this board that are cop hater's. There is a larger percentage of about 80% of our population that supports LEO or would with some education. There is nothing you can do about these cop haters! They are who they are, for whatever reasons. If you let them get under your skin you will spend a lot of time tilting windmills. Citizens have the right and duty to understand a police shooting. The point I am trying to make here is that they should look deeper than what appears on the surface. What I am getting at is that if an officer made a bad decision maybe the reason he made that decision is because of lack of training and/or the availability of a different force level and the tools to implement it. Instead of just holding the patrol officer up to the light to examine him the citizens should also look at the command staff of a dept. People look at these forums to learn, I find it very interesting that this forum has been read 1926 times. For people that think LEO's are looking to shoot someone, I would like them to know this. In the US at this time 70% of officers involved in a shooting will leave police service within five years of the shooting.

Since we dont have all the details and we werent there its really hard to judge if what was done was right.  You just have to have faith that the officers training took over.

If his kid was in my house i would probably have beat him with a pipe also... only if i couldn't get to my gun first.

Are we all overlooking the fact that the son may have been breaking and entering?  

Don't get me wrong... when the cop got there and started yelling "drop the pipe!" the old man should have complied, but who knows.... maybe his hearing aid fell out fighting with his son.

and on all this cop hating stuff.... WTF?
since when are all cops put in the same category?  Some are cool.... and some are just fat overpayed tax collectors.  As far as i am concerned if someone blew up Walnut Creek's Police Station (or set fire to their court house as was tried a few years back) i would not shed a tear.  They have almost NO CRIME!!! and the cop are pricks... they gave me a jay walking ticket (what? there were no cars coming!), and once issued me a parking ticket for stopping (just stopped to say hello to a friend, didnt even get out of my car) in front of a Bus stop... AT 2AM!!!  THE BUSSES DONT RUN AT 2AM!!!!... and their commissioner (they wont give you a real judge) doesnt play around.  Everyone is guilty!!!!  CAN YOU PAY TODAY??? NO??? THEN WE NEED TO ADD ON ANOTHER $50 LATE PAYMENT!!! CASE DISMISSED.  SEE THE CLERK AND PROVIDE HER WITH THE DEED TO YOUR HOUSE!
Just another fat cat working the system for his own ends.  He'll probably be mayor in a few years.

Martinez PD has never done me wrong, I have been pulled over many times, given tickets, etc... but they never get all crazy with me the way WC cops do.

hell... i haven't been pulled over by him yet, but one of my old hot rodder buds from highschool is Martinez PD.