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Posted: 9/27/2001 11:50:43 AM EDT
I need some serious advice. To start with, I am basically a beginning shooter and I am looking into purchasing my first firearm. I've done quite a bit of knowledge seeking over the last 6 months. I've looked at everything from glock, to CZ, to HK, to Walther, and Berretta. I've narrowed down to a few choices, all of them sigs. I had to exclude the 226 because it's too large for reasonable concealement. What remains is: 1. p228 (9mm) 2. p229 (either .357Sig or .40S&W) My first question is, which one is the more deadly cartridge, .357Sig or .40S&W? If you do a simple kinetic energy calculation, the .357 delivers alot more. But kinetic energy is only one small consideration in the big picture. The .40 may fire at a slower velocity, but the bullet is larger and heavier, which may mean that it creates a larger and more damaging wound track. But then we have to come back to what matters even more than ballistics. Accuracy and shot placement. I've heard that the .357Sig is more difficult to handle than the .40S&W in terms of muzzle flip and recoil. So what do you guys think? .357Sig or .40S&W? Oh, by the way, cost of ammo is not a consideration for me. But then I know some of you are going to say it doesn't really matter which one I get, because I can switch barrels between the two. But that's not the answer I'm looking for, I want to know which one is a superior cartridge for personal defense. Here are a couple more things I'm wondering about. Why did the Secret Service choose the p229 in .357Sig instead of .40S&W? And why did the FBI choose the .40S&W (instead of the .357Sig). I'm thinking of getting the p228 in 9mm for my wife, since she's recoil sensitive. But I'm also thinking that maybe I should just settle for a 9mm for myself, since it might be better to start my training that way. But I'm concerned about the effectiveness of the 9mm cartridge for personal defense, so that's why I'm looking at the sig p229 in either .357Sig or .40S&W.
Link Posted: 9/27/2001 12:00:48 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/27/2001 12:01:22 PM EDT by HiramRanger]
Link Posted: 9/27/2001 12:01:41 PM EDT
I looked at all the calibers you did and at all the handguns you did and i bought a Kimber clasic custom 1911. the stoppong power of the .45 has never been disputed. if you want more than 8 rds then id get a para ord. p-12 or an HK usp in .45 just my humble opinion.
Link Posted: 9/27/2001 12:06:16 PM EDT
Well, I think you are looking at the right manf - Sig Sauer. I LOVE my 229 in .40 But it wouldn't be my first choice for concealed carry. I would go for the polymer Sigs, due to weight considerations. Other guys carry the 229 oncealed, and say they have no problems. Personal preference. And as has been said, with the 229, for $140 you can swap barrels, and then use whatever caliber suits your mood.
Link Posted: 9/27/2001 12:09:11 PM EDT
First off, I'd get the same caliber (and identical guns if possible) for both yourself and your wife. There are many advatages to this, including but not limited to ammo purchase and magazines. One major consideration is if you have two similar but not identical guns, and TSHTF, you could easily mix things up and be screwed. As for your wife not being able to handle the .40, I've given CCW courses to many women, and the only .40 I've seen any of them have is with the Glock (something to do with limp wristing/muzzle flip causing failure to cycle). A female friend of mine, who is of small build, has no problem with my .40 Hi-Power, and shoots it better than her Sig 2340. I looked into the .357 once, but since I reload, and hate bottlenecks, I passed. Ballistics and stopping power is just statistics which can be spun to suit your personal agenda. It all comes down to what you are comfortable with, and what you will place your shots best with. My personal choice if I were getting a double action semi would be a CZ in .40. I really like the ergonomics of it, it is inexpensive and reliable, and very accurate. Try to get to a rental range and try out as many as you can. That is the only true test. Best of luck.
Link Posted: 9/27/2001 12:09:23 PM EDT
You could set around arguing with yourself on this one 4 ever. Get the 229, (I have one) and get both barrels. Myself, I rely on the .40 S&W more. Less muzzleflash and report. I would not doubt the effectiveness of either cartridge. When the FBI chose the .40, it was to duplicate the FBI "10mm light" load, in fact the cartridge was designed for this purpose. The .357 Sig was not around at that time. The Secret Service? They may use the .357 Sig with AP, to defeat a would be attacker's kevlar, but that is a wild guess.
Link Posted: 9/27/2001 12:13:20 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/27/2001 12:20:00 PM EDT by Jack-B-Nymble]
Originally Posted By HiramRanger: Hey Ump, with the P229 you can buy the .357 Sig and then get a .40 barrel to swap. Uses the same mags. Oops, superior cartridge is the .357 Sig and buy the P229 with the .357 barrel because I have heard (and I may be wrong) that Sig will not sell you a .357 Sig barrel though they WILL sell you a .40... Go figure.
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They were willing to sell me a .357 Sig barrel some years ago, for $200! Had them advertised in that magazine that they used to publish. I found an alternate source, paid about $120, for a factory Sig barrel.
Link Posted: 9/27/2001 12:17:14 PM EDT
I think one thing you should really consider is ammo availability. Where I live .40S&W is available from just about any source I can think of. .40S&W has become ubiquitous as a self defence and LEO round. All the major retail chains that carro ammo by my house have .40S&W. Only the gun stores by my house have .357SIG, and not much of a selection. Of course, you could always mail order your ammo, but that takes time, and when you need ammo NOW ammo availability is important. I'm personally a big fan of .40S&W, and consider it to be an excellent round. Ammo isn't too expensive, control of all my .40S&W chambered pistols is good in fast fire scenarios, and I can get a box of ammo just about anywhere in a pinch. With that being said, I'd get any gun that could be re-barreled and just switch barrels, giving you the best of both worlds. Either will provide adequate stopping power, but my personal choice with all things considered was .40S&W. Good luck. God Bless Texas
Link Posted: 9/27/2001 12:20:45 PM EDT
For a beginning shooter I would highly recommend the nine. Less recoil. Cheaper (usually much cheaper) ammunition. If your worried about "power" just choose your loads carefully. There are nine loads out there (Corbon for instance) that will do anything a 40 will. The 357 SIG is an intriguing idea and one I expect I will investigate at some point. But as a starter gun, no, I don't think so. Actually for a first pistol you should get a 22, but you seem to have your heart set on heavy iron.
Link Posted: 9/27/2001 12:22:56 PM EDT
Link Posted: 9/27/2001 12:23:28 PM EDT
Personally I'm a Glock fan do to the safety and simple workings of the gun and do to some of the best groups I have ever shot were with my G22. 40 cal may be a better selection over 357sig just based on the selection of multi brands of ammo. Glocks are cheaper than sig's. The best thing to go to a range and rent some.
Link Posted: 9/27/2001 12:36:13 PM EDT
In all the years and all the pistols I have fired, the SIG in 357 is without a doubt the second best performer for me (the first being my modified 1911) You can't go wrong on the SIG...ergonomics and such made it soooo easy to shoot I almost bought one. I did notice jams when using the 40cal barrel though...might have been the ammo. peace!
Link Posted: 9/27/2001 12:56:49 PM EDT
Originally Posted By HiramRanger: I don't buy the argument re: availability of ammo. I have 100 rounds of high-end defense ammo for my Glock 32 and a couple hundred rounds of plinking ammo - Lawman. When I go through a 100 rounds of plinker I stock up, and other than to test the function of the defense ammo I haven't shot it much.
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Hiram, I said it may be an issue, as it is where I live. I can get .40S&W from over 8 different manufacturers at 5 places within 15 minutes of my house. I can only get two types of .357Sig from one place within 15 minutes of my house. I see more .357Sig at guns shows than I do at retail shops locally. Anyplace else is a drive for me, not to mention that the price difference between .40S&W and .357Sig. I keep no less than 200 rounds of .40S&W FMJ (Winchester white box or Remington UMC) at any time and 40 rounds of JHP (Hydrashok) on hand at any time, except when I go out shooting on the weekends. I always keep the Hydrashoks for self defense. But the point is, he [b]may[/b] have problems finding .357Sig ammo around where he lives. I do, and that's one of the reasons I didn't buy a .357Sig pisol the last time I went shopping. I'd be more than happy to buy one if I didn't have to go all over heck and back to find the ammo for it. In my area, you can't find much 10mm either. Places that did carry it quit doing so because it doesn't sell well. God Bless Texas
Link Posted: 9/27/2001 1:00:41 PM EDT
Link Posted: 9/27/2001 1:43:41 PM EDT
I'd get the .40 because the ammo is cheaper, and you'll need to do some shooting to get up to a good proficiency level. You can always get the .357 barrel later for about a hundred bucks. The difference between .357 and .40 recoil isn't all that much, from what I can tell. Maybe a little sharper and there's more muzzle flash. OTOH my .357 barrel has a compensator on it. (Makes it look like a pimp gun.) Either caliber is fine. It's more important to get proficient with whatever weapon you have. Caliber at that level is optimizing the last little bit of performance, while changing the way you think and act can have huge effects on performance. The SIGs are excellent weapons, btw.
Link Posted: 9/27/2001 2:58:54 PM EDT
Originally Posted By mcgredo: The difference between .357 and .40 recoil isn't all that much, from what I can tell. Maybe a little sharper and there's more muzzle flash. OTOH my .357 barrel has a compensator on it. (Makes it look like a pimp gun.)
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I was in the next lane when a man was shooting a Sig 357Sig. It was real loud.
Link Posted: 9/27/2001 3:09:40 PM EDT
Originally Posted By ump45: My first question is, which one is the more deadly cartridge, .357Sig or .40S&W?
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UMP - since you are a begining shooter - don't get too caught up in all of this mental masterbation regarding stats. The only thing that counts is how accurate YOU are with whatever is in your hand. Also since most bad crap happens at night - know that the 357 sig has more flash associated with it than the 9mm. The 9mm is cheap to shoot and you may want factor the practice factor in to your equation as well. NEVER feel out gunned with a 9mm either - once again - how accurate are you? Good luck, stay safe, have fun
Link Posted: 9/27/2001 3:17:20 PM EDT
I have an S&W Sigma in .357SIG and a GLOCK in .40S&W. I like them both, but the .357SIG is a real "zipper" at the range. (Almost as much fun as my CZ with dangerously hot subgun ammo. Don't try this at home!)[BD]
Link Posted: 9/27/2001 3:28:24 PM EDT
ump, Gotta agree with 6 on this. If you are a beginner I would go with the 9mm. Shoot it a lot. When you become more proficient you can then step up to the .357 SIG. I usually carry a G26(9mm), and practice with it the most. When I go to shoot my G31(.357 Sig), the recoil and noise is considerably more stout. I think it always good to have a 9mm pistol anyway, being the standard NATO round, there will be surplus and inexpensive ammo for a long time to come. I do like the idea of getting both barrels, does anyone know if I can get a .40S&W barrel for my Glock 31? The most important aspect to self defense is shot placement. While power is good, is not definitive.
Link Posted: 9/27/2001 3:34:13 PM EDT
my sig 229 in .357 is the most accurate center fire pistol i own. it is also my favourite. ammo is no problem, just order some from www.ammoman.com. i prefer the .357 because it is quite a bit more accurate than the .40 barrel in the same gun. as far as recoil is concerned, i have never noticed much difference. i like the cartridge so much that i am thinking of buying a .357 barrel for my ccw glock 27. also, the .357 cartridge really shoots flat, making 100 yard shots allmost easy. willy
Link Posted: 9/27/2001 4:06:14 PM EDT
I'm not sure why some agencies went with the 357 SIG. I will say it is the loudest, most unpleasant round to fire since the 38 Super. The 40 is the leading round right now and a cream puff. It is the ballistic twin of the old 38-40. Another plus with the 40 is the brass situation. Once fired 40 brass is everywhere cheap. You will be grieving the loss of any 357 SIG brass. If you get the 40 email me and I'll send you 10 lbs of once fired free. As far as performance the 40 is putting them down hard. A lot of stopping power stuff is magazine/chairborne BS. I promise if you shoot someone 3 times above the belt with anything they are hurting.
Link Posted: 9/27/2001 5:00:49 PM EDT
.357 - mighty accurate and very flat trajectory.
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