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Posted: 9/26/2001 6:41:26 AM EDT
Link Posted: 9/26/2001 6:57:10 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/26/2001 6:57:17 AM EDT by Major-Murphy]
I think it's wise to understand that there is a big difference between bureaucrats unknowingly setting up the framework that could lead to our loss of freedom, and sinister bureaucrats plotting and conspiring to take away our freedoms (the latter are fantasy). Our nation and our way of life is in danger. We have two choices: Head for the hills, or towards the sound of the guns. Right now the enemy of America is Terrorism and those who support Terrorism. Don't lose sight of this.
Link Posted: 9/26/2001 7:04:56 AM EDT
Link Posted: 9/26/2001 7:08:29 AM EDT
Link Posted: 9/26/2001 7:09:48 AM EDT
They suck, they are misguided and socialistic in their aims, they want to take away our gun rights. But if you think that their goal is to literally enslave us, or even put us all in camps, as some here would suggest, then your nuts.
Link Posted: 9/26/2001 7:14:45 AM EDT
It's all a plot. The CIA financed the pilot training for the terrorists. They even made their reservations. Then the FBI conveniently lost the real records of where the money came from. This whole mess was a conspiracy of the government to gain support for their war on terrorism. They also gave the guns to the kids in the school shootings and then played subliminal (sublimidable: Bush's version) messages telling them to kill everyone. The government is behind it all. TELL EVERYONE. HURRY, NOW BEFORE IT'S TOO LA........HJL;K;KP;A;DFADFDJQEKFD [kill]
Link Posted: 9/26/2001 7:17:51 AM EDT
The gas mask issue is one that needs study, not panic. Those old m17 training masks are worthless. Isreal runs the risk of receiving rocket attacks, that may contain agents. We, on the other hand, have a totally different situation. Honestly, all of you who ran out and got, or desire a mask; when will you put it on? When a bomb goes off near you? Will the mask be that ready? When you hear report of gas attacks, in the news? When forced to pass through THE FORBIDDEN ZONE? The mask would be useful if an attack occurred nearby, but not so near that its on you. There will be no giant WWI gas clouds.
Link Posted: 9/26/2001 7:21:33 AM EDT
Link Posted: 9/26/2001 7:23:38 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/26/2001 7:23:49 AM EDT by Major-Murphy]
I wasn't suggesting that you were. We just need to keep our eye on the ball.
Link Posted: 9/26/2001 7:33:10 AM EDT
Link Posted: 9/26/2001 7:36:30 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/26/2001 7:37:15 AM EDT by Sweep]
Link Posted: 9/26/2001 7:38:45 AM EDT
If they flew DIRECTLY over you and sprayed, you'd better have a mask and suit with you. Otherwise just avoid the area. If a tanker truck filled with liquid nerve agent exploded near enough to you, that you needed protection, it's too late. You need atropine (again and again). Otherwise just avoid the area. You won't know that a Bio attack has taken place, until people start getting sick. Then, stay inside.
Link Posted: 9/26/2001 7:46:14 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Sweep: First, if the FBI knew these guys were here in the U.S. getting flight training and were tied to bin Laden, why weren't they deported, if not at least kept a closer eye on?
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You already know the answer to that. It has been discussed here and any mention made of it by myself and others is attacked as racist. They did nothing about it because they did not want to give the impression of being bad ol' racist and offending their delicate sensebilities. That is the same reason they are doing nothing and will do nothing about all of the others in this country right now that they know have ties to bin Laden and going to school here in the US. Warm happy feel good political correctness is more important than a few thousand American lives. And yes, this may eventually lead to martial law and/or the loss of our guns. But we can all rejoice in the fact that we honored the constitution (that will no longer be worth the paper it is written on) and didn't up set anyone living temporarily in this country.
Link Posted: 9/26/2001 7:53:26 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/26/2001 7:54:32 AM EDT by C_Rion]
MAJ, Could you please list the NSN for an M17 "training" Mask and the NSN for an M17 "real world Nuclear, Biological, Chemical go to war" mask? Thank You
Link Posted: 9/26/2001 8:03:44 AM EDT
M17's that you find now, will have either expired combat filters (if you're lucky), and most likely just TRAINING filters (CS). This makes the mask a "training mask" (not implying that's the official nomenclature).
Link Posted: 9/26/2001 8:09:37 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Major-Murphy: I think it's wise to understand that there is a big difference between bureaucrats unknowingly setting up the framework that could lead to our loss of freedom, and sinister bureaucrats plotting and conspiring to take away our freedoms (the latter are fantasy).
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From our friends at quotes library of HK91.com [url]www.hk91.com[/url] "Every good Communist should know that political power grows out of the barrel of a gun. The Communist party must control the guns" -Mao Tse Tung
Link Posted: 9/26/2001 9:25:51 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Major-Murphy: M17's that you find now, will have either expired combat filters (if you're lucky), and most likely just TRAINING filters (CS).
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you say this in posts [b]at least once a day,[/b] yet you never say anything to anybody about how to tell the difference. We could psychoanalyze that type of thing like they did to Wgunn but psychoanalyzing people is a gay thing to do.
Link Posted: 9/26/2001 9:37:45 AM EDT
Easy. The point is, go buy a mask, if it makes you FEEL safe. Learn about NBC warfare, and you will be safer, less likely to panic. AND be able to identify which masks work against what. If you buy an M17, it most likely will have training filters. If you have green (combat) filters that are in wrap. The might be good. If not in wrap, they are good against CS gas. How's that?
Link Posted: 9/26/2001 9:44:59 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Major-Murphy: How's that?
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A lot of stuff I don't understand, cause I don't know anything about masks! [:D] I haven't bought any myself because they're exactly what you said, they make you FEEL safe. these guys don't have the money to chemical attack all across th US and work their way down to tulsa oklahoma so I'm not worried about that. Bio is what I worry about and a mask isn't going to do shit unless abdul calls me up from his camel-phone and tells me when he's going to release it!
Link Posted: 9/26/2001 10:22:37 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Gunslinger: You already know the answer to that. It has been discussed here and any mention made of it by myself and others is attacked as racist. They did nothing about it because they did not want to give the impression of being bad ol' racist and offending their delicate sensebilities. That is the same reason they are doing nothing and will do nothing about all of the others in this country right now that they know have ties to bin Laden and going to school here in the US. Warm happy feel good political correctness is more important than a few thousand American lives. And yes, this may eventually lead to martial law and/or the loss of our guns. But we can all rejoice in the fact that we honored the constitution (that will no longer be worth the paper it is written on) and didn't up set anyone living temporarily in this country.
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If I understand you correctly, I disagree. I think now and before the only reason people with known ties to Bin Dickhead were not deported or scrutinized was because the FBI underestimated them or just plain old f@#ked up.
Link Posted: 9/26/2001 10:42:41 AM EDT
MAJ, Could you list the NSN for an M17 "training" filter? Thank You
Link Posted: 9/26/2001 10:51:55 AM EDT
...or maybe if they (FBI, CIA, NSA, POT, LSD, oops, wrong song), took every half baked threat they, may or may not, be aware of, either seriously rendered, or not we will all be locked down at night and during the day.
Link Posted: 9/26/2001 11:35:51 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Chimborazo:
Originally Posted By Gunslinger: You already know the answer to that. It has been discussed here and any mention made of it by myself and others is attacked as racist. They did nothing about it because they did not want to give the impression of being bad ol' racist and offending their delicate sensebilities. That is the same reason they are doing nothing and will do nothing about all of the others in this country right now that they know have ties to bin Laden and going to school here in the US. Warm happy feel good political correctness is more important than a few thousand American lives. And yes, this may eventually lead to martial law and/or the loss of our guns. But we can all rejoice in the fact that we honored the constitution (that will no longer be worth the paper it is written on) and didn't up set anyone living temporarily in this country.
View Quote
If I understand you correctly, I disagree. I think now and before the only reason people with known ties to Bin Dickhead were not deported or scrutinized was because the FBI underestimated them or just plain old f@#ked up.
View Quote
So we completely agree finally. We both think that they are now fucking up if they do not keep a close eye on them and/or deport them.
Link Posted: 9/26/2001 12:30:20 PM EDT
MAJ, If a filter is not in the wrap, could you explain to me how it is ineffective against a biological weapon that has a structure size of 3 microns, but it IS effective against CS with a structure size of 2 microns? Also can you explain to me what causes the degredation of the filter when it is not in the sealed package? Also, what is it that makes a used M40, that was possibly slept on or used as a pillow by Joe,more efficient than an unissued M17 that has been properly cared for and stored with dessicant present. FYI, the Isreali masks currently avail will accept NATO filters. Get the German ones, or, if possible, look for M40 filters still in the round spam can. BTW, if a "combat" filter is green, what color is a "training" filter?
Link Posted: 9/26/2001 2:31:06 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/26/2001 2:32:01 PM EDT by Major-Murphy]
All I know about NBC, is what they taught me in the corps. Brand new combat filters have to be changed after an attack, and if you've ever done this, you know that you can't hold you breath that long. That's why canister masks are superior -you don't have to take it off to change filters. A surplus store mask's filters have a history that you are unaware of. The filters may only be good for a short while, or who knows. Who wants to take that chance? Filters that are "new" but not in wrap might not be new. Who wants to take that chance? As far as why it works against CS? I don't know. I never minded a little CS getting through, in training. It cleared my sinuses. I doubt Sarin or VX would have the same effect.
Link Posted: 9/26/2001 5:58:37 PM EDT
MAJ, Brand New filters do have to be changed after an attack. Hopefully it will be in a decon site.In such an instance, you would go through the round robin decon procedure. If you have to hold in place and cannot get to a decon site, you will not be able to change filters IMMEDIETLY after an attack, you will most likely be allright, unless you were saturated with the chemical and your filter was subsequently saturated. If this is the case, you chemical protective suit will fail you long before your filter does. Canister masks superior? Well, in some areas yes, in others no.The filter has a longer life, yes. The filter can be changed more effectivly, yes. There are cons as well. The filter is very, very, very vulnerable to getting knocked loose or ripped totally off in a rough enviroment. If that filter gets unscrewed just a tiny bit, you are through. The filter acts in the same manner as any other filter. It filters contaminants out of the air you breath. The air passes through the filter material, which has passages large enough to let air pass through, but not large enough to let the chemical agent pass through. A filter that is not sealed gets degradation from dust and particles in the atmosphere cutting into the filter material when you breathe in, damaging the filter material. Also, moisture in the atmosphere begins to collect in the filter material, and that also degrades the filter. It also allows chemical agents to wick across the filter material, instead of trapping it. A sealed filter, if it was sealed correctly, and stored properly, it will work when you open it. As far as smelling cs with a "training" filter in the chamber, if you smelled CS it was because you had a leak in your mask. You should have been checked with "bananna oil" before you went in the chamber. If you weren't, then it a a failure on the part of your NBC NCO. If you went to war with that mask, and got hit with VX or GB, then a brand new set of filters made yesterday would not have saved you.
Link Posted: 9/26/2001 5:59:17 PM EDT
Anyway, for anyone concerned : 1. facial hair will prevent you from getting a good seal. If your prepping for a chemical attack, shave. 2. If you get hit with chemical, leave the area, now. DO NOT unmask until you see lots of healthy animals running around playing. 3.Before you unmask, strip naked and drop everything you had with you. The only thing you should still have on is your mask. 4.Find a water source,and charcoal. Crush the charcoal up and coat yourself with it.Wash off this charcoal mixture with the water. DO NOT stand in this mixture. Make sure the rinse off is running away from you. Repeat this procedure.At this point, you will want to do the same to the outside of your mask. Do it twice. Now do it to the outside of the container the filter is in. set these in an area that has not been touched by the contaminated water/charcoal runoff. 5. Decon yourself again. 6. Pick up your filter container, and walk away from the decon site. 7. Unmask Now your are clean, naked, but alive. It does get a little more complicated then this. Nerve agent requires a bit of variance in this procedure. Blister agent, you are screwed anyway. This is the best procedure for biological. You can decon your equipment by charcoal washing all of it first, then moving , dropping it, moving again, strippings naked, moving again, decon yourself and mask and filter, move again, unmask and change filter, or just change filter, depending on mask, reclothing yourself with new garments, remoask, move back to deconned gear that your dropped, pick it up, move out. This is feaseable, not for someone who is in a combat zone,but, is in an area that has recieved a chemical attack. You will not have lots of people looking to kill you, thus you will have plenty of time and resources to decon yourself. as far as not knowing when it will come or not being able to react if it lands on top of you, it is the same for soldiers. If you are in the middle of the initial attack, you are dead. It is the guys upwind from you that will see you spitting blood and dancing around on the ground doing the funky chicken dance of death that will have time to react and call up a blue 1 report. The same applies in an attack on civillians. If you are hit directly, you are screwed. If you see people a few hundred yards away throwing up, flopping around, pukeing blood, If you see brids falling out of the sky and dogs falling over dead, stop breathing and put on your mask, and haul ass the other way. HTH
Link Posted: 9/26/2001 6:25:58 PM EDT
You've got alot of military NBC training. NOW, think of how they'll try to use these agents. Where, when, how much. I doubt it'll be a crop-duster. Maybe a tanker of liquid agent, with explosives? What do you think? You have alot to offer.
Link Posted: 9/26/2001 6:34:32 PM EDT
C_Rion...CS is a crystal, not a gas, therefore is easier to filter than a gas or vapor. A regular dust mask can filter out the majority of CS. It will still sting the eyes and skin, but as long as yo uhave a decent cloth barrier over your mouth and nose, you won't inhale much. A "training" filter is good as long as the filter is not damaged (ie, cracked, damaged filter element, ect.) and can be used for years in a training environment. A combat filter is only good for a few hours when opened, regardless of the conditions it is kept in. If exposed to CB agents, it's life expectancy decreases. Oh, and you forgot 2 steps in your donning procedure. The first step is to stop breathing AND close your eyes, don and clear your mask, and then give the signal for gas. [smoke]
Link Posted: 9/26/2001 8:17:41 PM EDT
This is why they say it's harder to protect a civilian population from a CB attack than from nuclear. Any of you ditto heads hear about that testimony from the terrorist two months ago about their training in the Afghan camps?
Link Posted: 9/26/2001 10:13:32 PM EDT
Well Sir This is purely a speculative shot in the dark, but considering the following factors, this is what I forsee: 1. The advesary has no rules of engagement 2. The advesary is fanatical in his resolve 3. The two factors mean his avenues of attack are limited only by his imagination. The enemies objective appears to be mass casuality for full effect. Taking this into consideration, I believe his target would be a major population center, most likely in an area where people are very concentrated and would be hard pressed to make a mass exit. This avenue would dictate targets such as subways and mass transit depots. The most effective method for releaseing a chemical weapon into this enviroment would be induction through the ventilation system. If the area targeted were not an area with a high target density, such as a subway or mass transit depot, then he would want to get the weapon as close to his target area as possible without drawing attention to himself. A gasoline tanker truck would not draw any attention, as gasoline is delivered this way, and there is a gas station on every corner. Find a gas station near a lucrative target, park the truck at the station, detonate low energy explosives to rupture the hull and release the chemical weapon. A crop duster is a good concept, but crop dusters over cities would stick out like a sore thumb. On the other hand, so do jet liners veering off course on radar. A crop duster flying low level could evade commercial radar. The pilot does not care if he gets shot down, as long as he makes it to his target and completes his mission. Also, and this is perhaps the most threatening one, is releaseing a resistant toxin into a cities water supply. Depending on how well the water is processed, if it is processed at all after the enemy has taken control of the facility in a very quick raid, would reek havoc on a population center. If a 5 man team siezed control long enough to disable processing of the water and release a 55 gallon drum into the water supply while the water was going through unprocessed, or if they could sieze control and introduce the weapon into the water supply after it is processed, they would create massive casulaties. And as a side note, just to prove that the methods are only limited by your imagination, im gonna share a story that was related to me by an NBC NCO I used to know. This is his vision of how he would release a chemical weapon. "If I wanted to slime a city, I would get an old car with a V8 engine. I would disable the fuel feed to 1 cylinder, and replce that feed with a chemical weapon. I would then tint the hell out of the windows, put on a mask and suit, and drive around the city. When I got to a point that I wanted to start taking people out, I would turn on the chemical and let it just flow out of my tail pipe with the exaust....." I asked what happens if he gets pulled over. He said " Hell, Ill just turn on the chemical and watch the officer twitch while I drive away........" Once again, the only limits are their imaginations.
Link Posted: 9/26/2001 10:37:30 PM EDT
Timh, A combat filter is only good for a few hours once it is opened? You mean filters should have been changed every 2 or 3 hours in the gulf, because they were no good after 2 or 3 hours? Im sorry, but, ummmm, no. Combat filters are not changed every few hours. They do not just quit working after a few hours after opening. If that filter is kept on the mask, in a closed carrier, it will work when you need it. Just what is it that causes a protective mask filter to quit working after a few hours? Now if you are saying that a filter that is EXPOSED to a contaminated enviro is only good for a few hours, you are correct, and that is a given. As the filter element becomes saturated with the chemical, it will degrade, and after a while the filter becomes so saturated with the chemical that the chemical finally penetrates it. BTW, the steps for donning a mask are 1. Close eyes and stop breathing 2. Remove mask from carrier 3. Don mask 4. Tighten head straps 5. Pull over hood 6. Clear and seal 7. Announce gas 8. Buckle or velcro retaining straps 9. Seek cover 10. Assume MOPP 4 11. Send up blue 1 and on order withdraw or initiate 256 kit and perform a chemical reconnisance in place. Believe me, I would much rather send up the blue 1 and haul ass and let the chemical reconnisance guys roll around in the slime with their air conditioned armored limo. But thats just me.
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