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Posted: 9/16/2001 9:17:59 AM EDT
One thing that people might not realize yet is that America, in our war against terrorism, might just find more enemies within that we currently realize. Many of the 19 terrorists that attacked us on Tuesday were operating in the US for 18 months or more. At least one is known to have taken up US citizenship. These terrorists can hide in our communities and strike without notice. As this war progresses I'm sure more attacks on US cities are to come. I'm also sure many of these attacks will come from people living in our country. As we bomb targets in Arab nations we will create new enemies of US citizens from these states... some of whom still have family and friends there. How will America respond? Marshal law? Soldiers on every corner? The Congress is poised to pass legislation which will allow police and federal agencies to tap phones and monitor emails without warrants. It's called the "anti-terrorism bill". Are we set to surrender our freedoms in a quest for security? What will America's major cities look like in 5 years? Will it be a police state? Just curious... Thoughts?
Link Posted: 9/16/2001 9:40:12 AM EDT
Originally Posted By wgunn: One thing that people might not realize yet is that America, in our war against terrorism, might just find more enemies within that we currently realize. Many of the 19 terrorists that attacked us on Tuesday were operating in the US for 18 months or more. At least one is known to have taken up US citizenship. These terrorists can hide in our communities and strike without notice. As this war progresses I'm sure more attacks on US cities are to come. I'm also sure many of these attacks will come from people living in our country. As we bomb targets in Arab nations we will create new enemies of US citizens from these states... some of whom still have family and friends there. How will America respond? Marshal law? Soldiers on every corner? The Congress is poised to pass legislation which will allow police and federal agencies to tap phones and monitor emails without warrants. It's called the "anti-terrorism bill". Are we set to surrender our freedoms in a quest for security? What will America's major cities look like in 5 years? Will it be a police state? Just curious... Thoughts?
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No offence wgunn, but that is starting to sound like libertarian talk. I will give you a heads up, it isn't real popular now. Go with the crowd, it appears to be easier than thinking logically for yourself. Nobody listened to the libertarians when they where trying to stop this before it came to a mess. Why would they now? Trust me I know. rDAm
Link Posted: 9/16/2001 9:44:18 AM EDT
Don't confuse the 'we told you so' crap with libertarianism. I know, I'm one myself. However, I realize there are some times you don't want to try and rub salt in open wounds, especially the wounds your own country has suffered.
Link Posted: 9/16/2001 9:50:38 AM EDT
I'm a staunch conservative. I'm also all for bombing the hell out of those people and countries responsible for this act. I'm just asking a rhetorical question... I think it's something we should be cognizant of. Thanks for the warning though. :)
Link Posted: 9/16/2001 9:51:41 AM EDT
Originally Posted By schnacke: Don't confuse the 'we told you so' crap with libertarianism. I know, I'm one myself. However, I realize there are some times you don't want to try and rub salt in open wounds, especially the wounds your own country has suffered.
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No one is rubbing salt in open wounds, at least not in this thread.
Link Posted: 9/16/2001 11:00:18 AM EDT
Originally Posted By wgunn: No one is rubbing salt in open wounds, at least not in this thread.
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This is a no-shitter, I was seriously trying to give a heads up. From my limited experience that is. Thanks wgunn. rDAm
Link Posted: 9/16/2001 12:07:42 PM EDT
Actually I am hopeing that we can use this to get Vermonts laws made the law of the land and then anyone can carry their rifles openly like in Isreal
Link Posted: 9/16/2001 12:08:57 PM EDT
Originally Posted By ArmdLbrl: Actually I am hopeing that we can use this to get Vermonts laws made the law of the land and then anyone can carry their rifles openly like in Isreal
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That is the best idea I have heard all day! Call Mr. McCain and see if he will oblige. rDAm
Link Posted: 9/16/2001 12:22:03 PM EDT
Thats odd, I was just wondering what our Gov is gonna do when Unfriendly Snipers start popping up or Bombs in Markets It was stated on Fox just a few minutes ago that there could be hundreds of Terrorists already residing here. Family members as well. Hell, for all we know, it could be thousands. Much like Bosnia, Kosovo, you can name your own third world country. Especially after we start making Craters out of the landscape over there.
Link Posted: 9/16/2001 12:24:54 PM EDT
Originally Posted By ArmdLbrl: Actually I am hopeing that we can use this to get Vermonts laws made the law of the land and then anyone can carry their rifles openly like in Isreal
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I think more grandmas carryied an UZI or CAR-15 to the newspaper stand with them, you might see a drop in crime. _FS
Link Posted: 9/16/2001 12:25:09 PM EDT
Oh, and Machinegun carrying soldiers on every corner is inevitable. IMO
Link Posted: 9/16/2001 12:26:30 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Full_Spectrum:
Originally Posted By ArmdLbrl: Actually I am hopeing that we can use this to get Vermonts laws made the law of the land and then anyone can carry their rifles openly like in Isreal
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I think more grandmas carryied an UZI or CAR-15 to the newspaper stand with them, you might see a drop in crime. _FS
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That would suit me fine.
Link Posted: 9/16/2001 12:38:20 PM EDT
If you're afraid to create a few new craters--in the right place, based on good intel, and directed at the people responsible--what's YOUR response? What would YOU do? Nothing? I am getting more than a little sick of the people who are afraid to make a move after this country's having suffered the biggest one day loss of life from terrorists in the entire history of the world. Anyone who knows what could be coming is afraid for their future security, for their safety, and for the safety of the people whom they hold dear. You're not alone. But if you're too afraid to move, and are trying to convince others to also be sheep, keep your mouth shut so you won't embarrass yourself. Freedom is not free. If you're not willing to fight for it, you don't deserve it. And if too many feel that way, you won't have it.
Link Posted: 9/16/2001 6:25:26 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/16/2001 6:26:24 PM EDT by wgunn]
Originally Posted By TEXN: If you're afraid to create a few new craters--in the right place, based on good intel, and directed at the people responsible--what's YOUR response? What would YOU do? Nothing? I am getting more than a little sick of the people who are afraid to make a move after this country's having suffered the biggest one day loss of life from terrorists in the entire history of the world. Anyone who knows what could be coming is afraid for their future security, for their safety, and for the safety of the people whom they hold dear. You're not alone. But if you're too afraid to move, and are trying to convince others to also be sheep, keep your mouth shut so you won't embarrass yourself. Freedom is not free. If you're not willing to fight for it, you don't deserve it. And if too many feel that way, you won't have it.
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Hey hot head, try reading what's actually written here. I'm sick of people who go on rants when they obviously haven't read what's posted. Please quote one line of text which says any one of us isn't for kicking these people's asses. Since you're having a hard time reading all the posts here, let me quote myself which is clearly posted above:
I'm a staunch conservative. I'm also all for bombing the hell out of those people and countries responsible for this act. I'm just asking a rhetorical question... I think it's something we should be cognizant of. Thanks for the warning though. :)
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Link Posted: 9/17/2001 8:39:41 PM EDT
I kind of agree with you wgunn. Been talking to friends and telling them to wait for a bit. We will see bombs go off at schools, hospitals, churches, malls, sporting events, etc. The terrorists want to ruin the American way of life, hitting us close to home is a good way for them to start unfortunately.
Link Posted: 9/17/2001 11:20:05 PM EDT
From the News there are app six million Muslims in the U.S.A. granted the vast majority of them are peaceful and will cause no problems, but we all need to consider this, at least a small percentage of them will be a danger. One percent equals 60,000 and even if the number is as low as only one tenth of one percent .1% which equals 6,000. Now even 100 terrorists could cause a lot of trouble so what will happen if 6,000 to 60,000 people start committing sabotage and terrorist acts. Just something to think about, have a nice day.
Link Posted: 9/17/2001 11:50:12 PM EDT
I need more ammo.
Link Posted: 9/17/2001 11:54:54 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/17/2001 11:56:35 PM EDT by Imbroglio]
[i]"Today, America would be outraged if U.N. troops entered Los Angeles to restore order. Tomorrow they will be grateful! This is especially true if they were told that there were an outside threat from beyond, whether real or 'promulgated,' that threatened our very existence. It is then that all peoples of the world will plead to deliver them from this evil. The one thing every man fears is the unknown. When presented with this 'scenario', individual rights will be willingly relinquished for the guarantee of their well-being granted to them by the World Government."[/i]- Dr.Henry Kissinger, Bilderberger Conference, Evians, France, 1991 [i]"Terrorism is escalating to the point that Americans soon may have to choose between civil liberties and more intrusive means of protection," says Defense Secretary William S. Cohen. The nation's defense chief told the Army Times he once considered the chilling specter of armored vehicles surrounding civilian hotels or government buildings to block out terrorists as strictly an overseas phenomenon. But no longer. "It could happen here," Cohen said he concluded after 8 months of studying threats under the Pentagon microscope..."The American people should not be concerned about it. They should welcome it."[/i]- ARMY TIMES 10/27/98 New military unit for domestic deployment Cohen says Americans should 'welcome' troops on home soil [url]www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=15217[/url]
Link Posted: 9/18/2001 12:16:48 AM EDT
wgunn You have made a good point and yes we should think of this for all you know you might have one that lives next door to you. We must think of this because it could and it will happen in our country,state,county,town or in are neighborhood. Hell we might even call them a friend and have them over for a ball game on Sunday they maybe your child's best friends parents. We must also think about the Muslims that have nothing to do with these terrorism act's there are going to be people killed only because they are Muslims. If that starts around here WE WILL BE NO BETTER THEN HITLER. We will be worse because we know better. I'm all for going over them and getting this jack ass and the Taliban.
Link Posted: 9/18/2001 3:33:21 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Full_Spectrum:
Originally Posted By ArmdLbrl: Actually I am hopeing that we can use this to get Vermonts laws made the law of the land and then anyone can carry their rifles openly like in Isreal
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I think more grandmas carryied an UZI or CAR-15 to the newspaper stand with them, you might see a drop in crime. _FS
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Not me. How many grandmas can properly shoot an UZI or AR15? Unless properly trained, if she decides to fire at someone, she will probably hit everything but the target.
Link Posted: 9/18/2001 5:04:32 PM EDT
Wgunn, sounds like I struck a nerve. Usually, that happens when someone gets caught in a corner. I can read that you're an armchair commando who's afraid to do anything because you don't want to make the Arab world mad. I can read that in one post you're afraid to do anything, and in another you're screaming that you're all for what you didn't want to do in your first post.You can't have it both ways. And yes,I think I can read pretty well and spell too (it's not "marshal law" by the way). If you took my post personally, you identified exactly who you are,and you're exactly who I'm sick of. If it didn't offend you, then I'm not talking to you.
Link Posted: 9/18/2001 6:08:38 PM EDT
Originally Posted By TEXN: Wgunn, sounds like I struck a nerve. Usually, that happens when someone gets caught in a corner.
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Or when someone like yourself goes off half cocked. It would appear your reading comprehension sucks as bad as your people skills.
I can read that you're an armchair commando who's afraid to do anything because you don't want to make the Arab world mad.
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Yup, that's me. Wow, not only are you woefully ignorant you're psychic too! Umm, let's try this again. Maybe if I use all caps and in bold: [b]LONG BEFORE YOU SHOWED YOUR ASS (that means made your initial post) AND INABILITY TO READ I POSTED I AM ALL FOR BOMBING THESE IDIOTS[/b]. Did you catch it that time? Probably not.
I can read that in one post you're afraid to do anything, and in another you're screaming that you're all for what you didn't want to do in your first post.
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No, the problem is that you can't read. I never posted that I was afraid to bomb them. You missed the point of the whole post... big surprise there! It's not about bombing them (either being for or against it), I'm asking about what our response will be. It's more of a government conspiracy post. Try reading it again, then leave the part out where you make assumptions... you might get it that time.
If you took my post personally, you identified exactly who you are,and you're exactly who I'm sick of.
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And if you took my post personally, you identified who you really are too. Laugh, whatever that means in simpleton talk. I guess it means you're only further demonstrating your lack of reading comprehension and communications skills.
If it didn't offend you, then I'm not talking to you.
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Then stop talking, I'm not offended by idiots. I feel sympathy for them.
Link Posted: 9/18/2001 6:45:19 PM EDT
Texn what are you thinking Wgunn has not said anything that we should not think about or anything that is unAmerican. We must think about this also this war will not be fought only in a place that is half way around the world but it may also be fought in your town. I think if there still are people out there that think we are the U.S.A... nothing is going to happen here we are all safe then I have a few tin foil hats for you people. They got through Canada and with the money they can get through Mexico with 12,000 troops if they wanted to. I have said this before in a few other post's do you think for one minute that if the Mexican government was offered X amount of money or part of the U.S.A that they would not turn there head. If for one minute you belive the Mexican government would say no to them you must be crazy. The Mexican government does not care about the U.S.A they let there military shoot at are border patrol,kill people here and they don't care because they did it in the U.S.. We must watch are back's and keep an eye on old enemy this might be a diversion to get are troops out of are country so that they can send theres in our's. I'm I for bombing the hell out of them? Hell Yes I'm I a libertarian because I also think that we people in the U.S. are going to endure more of are people being killed on are ground and we need to watch out for the retaliations? Then Yes I must also be a libertarian.
Link Posted: 9/18/2001 7:18:08 PM EDT
Originally Posted By tayous1: Texn what are you thinking Wgunn has not said anything that we should not think about or anything that is unAmerican.
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That's because he's reading what he wants to read and not what's actually written. My point was that we can expect an increase in terrorism as we start getting some payback. There are lots of Muslims who might turn on the US when we start bombing their friends and family. How is America going to respond? That's quite clearly what I was posting about... I never said we shouldn't bomb them as old Texn keeps implying. I'm actually surprised my first post I made after the attack didn't get me banned. I was calling for bathing in their blood and killing everyone in the region that even resembled a Muslim... but the wounds were REALLY fresh so I think I got a pass. But some folks just like to argue for whatever reason. That, or they feel like putting someone else down (even when they have to make things up to do it) to make themselves feel better about their position in life. Either way, no concern of mine.
Link Posted: 9/18/2001 7:28:19 PM EDT
wgunn's point was hit home (sort of) with me today. my mom came home and said that there are several "middle eastern" people working at her place of employment. a Pakistani computer tech left in a rush last monday saying he had a family emergency at home (Pakistan) and he had to leave. no problem. except he hasn't been heard from since. she doesn't think he was on the airplanes involved in tuesday's attacks, but all of his security clearances, passwords, etc. have been revoked just in case. just goes to show you never can tell.
Link Posted: 9/18/2001 7:34:09 PM EDT
Originally Posted By ARlady: wgunn's point was hit home (sort of) with me today.
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Just wait... when the fighting begins and Jihad is called for again and again... we'll find many more enemies within. My question to you is, what civil liberties are you willing to surrender in the name of security? I'm not willing to accept more gun laws, phone taps without warrants, or police taking on a military role... or anything else our government can dream up. I'm for citizen militia's as being our "home guard" like the Brits did in WWII. Let armed citizen report to local authorities and work with the military/police to keep the peace in their area's. Don't disarm us, invade our privacy and treat us like criminals... trust us to do what is incumbent upon all citizens, to help defend ourselves and our nation.
Link Posted: 9/18/2001 7:34:15 PM EDT
Wgunn, I could have sworn you were worried that, how did it go... "terrorists can hide in our communities and strike without notice." or that we might "...bomb targets in Arab nations... (and) create new enemies....some of whom still have family and friends here". You say those weren't really the "Oh, don't make the Arabs mad" comments as they first appeared to be. Maybe that isn't what you meant. If not, maybe you shouldn't be so philosophical, because in doing so you take the risk that we uneducated simpletons with low comprehension skills on this board will take your words literally. For the others, those who really are afraid of making the Arabs mad by doing what we must do, my comments stand, and I will do my very best to think of a few more. Would all members of the pacification corps take one step forward?
Link Posted: 9/18/2001 8:59:10 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/18/2001 9:24:48 PM EDT by wgunn]
Originally Posted By TEXN: Wgunn, I could have sworn you were worried that, how did it go... "terrorists can hide in our communities and strike without notice." or that we might "...bomb targets in Arab nations... (and) create new enemies....some of whom still have family and friends here".
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So, you uneducated simpletons get "I don't think we should bomb" from the phrase "terrorist can hide in our communities and strike without notice"? You're "literal interpretation" is that this means we shouldn't fight? Can you please bold the words or phrases that LITERALLY say "we shouldn't bomb Arab nations because I'm afraid we might make new enemies which will hurt us"? I can see how you make an honest mistake and read into what was posted, but didn't you read the post which followed right after it but still comes before your initial response? How do you explain that, or do you? I would think my saying "I'm a staunch conservative and support bombing those responsible" is pretty clear. But you ignored this post and went on your little tirade for some unknown reason thinking perhaps I would whimper to your irrational rants. Hey, can you also deduce race, religion, sex, sexual preference, height, weight, hair color and favorite food from the same phrases?!? The statement "terrorists can hide in our communities and strike without notice" is something you disagree with? I know, how about focusing on the [b]ISSUE[/b] and not your "interpretation"? You're not taking anything literally, you're reading into everything. Please, stop making yourself out to be such a moron in a public forum. You know, a man can admit making a mistake and apologize... feel free to give it a try sometime.
You say those weren't really the "Oh, don't make the Arabs mad" comments as they first appeared to be.
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They only appear so to [b]YOU[/b], no one else. Now you're back peddling in a hopeless effort to save face... but you're only digging a deeper hole for yourself.
Maybe that isn't what you meant. If not, maybe you shouldn't be so philosophical, because in doing so you take the risk that we uneducated simpletons with low comprehension skills on this board will take your words literally.
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Wow... You're dazzling me with stupidity. Do you have to make a conscious effort to remember to breath or does that simple motor reflex still work properly??? Just curious...
For the others, those who really are afraid of making the Arabs mad by doing what we must do, my comments stand, and I will do my very best to think of a few more. Would all members of the pacification corps take one step forward?
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I'm sure you're a great warrior. Please, don't attempt to get a job teaching after watching the wars events unfold on TV though. Just harkening back to your "arm chair commando" attempted insult... Since we know so much about each other. [:)] Oh, and I don't recall too many pacifist posts on this board being posted. Perhaps you should find a nice liberal anti-gun board to go bang some virtual heads on. Most everyone hear is tired of waiting for the bombs to start falling. Hey, I have an idea... why don't you contribute to this thread? Now that you seem to have a basic grasp of the subject matter, perhaps you can offer a comment or two. How many liberties are you willing to surrender in this up coming battle against our enemy from within?
Link Posted: 9/18/2001 9:19:48 PM EDT
I for one don't confuse freedom with privacy.I have nothing to hide and if some fed get's his kicks listening to my private conversations,so what?As long as they don't try to hold it against me somehow and limit my personal freedom to act as I wish I could give a damn.Any evidence gained by this means would have to be relevant to terrorism or it would not hold up in court.I know that this country is full of terrorists.Hell one of the bombers was from Tulsa just down the road from where I used to live(Polo Run Apartments)and went to Saprtan School of Aeronautics.I wish that someone had tapped his fucking phone and gotten an idea of what he was capable of and watched him like a hawk to keep him from killing everybody.I know of several Palestinians that are hiding in the Tulsa area trying to avoid prosecution in Israel for being involved in terrorism.I'd like to see those guys get their emails check everyday.Hell most of them are not even citizens.I think that if you are not a citizen that all of those rights should not apply to you anyway.You should not have any of the rights that a legitimate citizen has until you get a green card(no student visa bullshit)and the INS should be able to harrass you at will unitl you either naturalize or leave.Most of these killers had strong ties to local Mosques and prominent Muslim figures within the communities that they lived in.I think they should have been tapped too.I think Tim McVeigh should have been watched from the time he visited Waco until he tried to get his bomb together.Just because someone is watching you does not mean that they can mess with you(unless you are plotting some evil deed).I believe that there need to be safeguards about inadmissability of evidence if the warrant was not for the violation observed but other then that I wouldn' care if someone read my email. sopmod
Link Posted: 9/18/2001 9:32:35 PM EDT
Originally Posted By sopmodm4: I for one don't confuse freedom with privacy.I have nothing to hide and if some fed get's his kicks listening to my private conversations,so what?As long as they don't try to hold it against me somehow and limit my personal freedom to act as I wish I could give a damn.
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I think you should re-read the Constitution and Bill of Rights. The reason our courts and Congress have thus far avoided searches without warrants [i](including reading your mail, email, or listening in on your phone calls which has been ruled one in the same for obvious reasons)[/i] is because of Article IV of the Bill of Rights: [b]The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized. [/b] If you're willing to discard the Fourth Amendment in your quest for security, why stop there? Let's ditch the First Amendment and the Second while we're at it. You're now taking the same tact as our anti-gun enemies because you personally value your right to privacy less than me, or others... just as they have little value for their (our) right to own a gun. I don't think we need to start trashing our Constitution or Bill of Rights in our quest for security. I think we can have both our freedom and security with a little thought.
Link Posted: 9/18/2001 9:51:14 PM EDT
Naw,it ain't like that at all.I', talking mostly about the damned foreigners but as far as I am concerned listening on my phone or reading my email is aloready being done by nerds in cyberland anyway so why not the government.As long as I can keep my guns and not have someine actually entering my dwelling I could give a shit.I don't like the search and seizure aspect of the pending legislation but I don't plot illegal shit or email kiddy porn so I have nothing to worry about.I think people that are overly private have something to hide and wonder what they are up to or what they are ashamed of.I would have a fit if someone came into my house an rifled through my personal papers and such(as covered by the constituion)but the internet belongs to the government and they can do whatever they like with it.I'm just happy they let us civilians use it and add on to it for our own private use. sopmodm4
Link Posted: 9/19/2001 4:55:17 AM EDT
Wgunn, I yield the floor, because obviously your opinion is the only one which counts, and you're not really a limp-wristed, hand- wringing, let's-all-hide-under-the-bed, do-nothing-because-the-arabs-friends-will-get-us-or-the-government-will-get-us pacifist as (now that you've so eloquently set the record straight)I misinterpreted. I agree you're a gung-ho patriot who's ready to be in the first wave, champing at the bit to do your utmost, and no doubt that's indeed formidable. We're all thinking your way now, we've forgotten your second post which magically negated your first, you've had fun attacking everyone who disagreed with your "rhetorical" comments, and you have the last word. As we say down here, adios, pardner. I won't be back for awhile since I have things to do that might make a difference to someone who isn't scared of their shadow and actually might have to face a bad guy. And, again, please pardon me for excluding you from that group. No doubt you'll have something to say about everything here, but take your time, since I won't be able to see it for about three weeks. And sleep well, because lots of people are making it safe for you to have sweet dreams in this land of milk and honey that no one wants to be inconvenienced in any way to protect.
Link Posted: 9/19/2001 5:22:30 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/19/2001 5:22:09 AM EDT by wgunn]
Originally Posted By TEXN: We're all thinking your way now, we've forgotten your second post which magically negated your first, you've had fun attacking everyone who disagreed with your "rhetorical" comments, and you have the last word.
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Get a grip dude. So now you're "everyone"? Sorry to break this to you, but you're the only one who's struggling with the content of my first post and my "magical" second post. If you try to read this thread again you will discover you're the one who was doing the attacking, I was only responding to those attacks. You'll also notice I'm not having to explain the obvious to anyone else on this thread, just to you. The conversations I'm having with others are civil conversations, something you're obviously incapable of having. So I wish "everyone" (that would be you) good luck in facing the evil. Go get'em tiger.
Link Posted: 9/19/2001 5:41:59 AM EDT
TEXN fancies himself to be some sort of psycho-analyst it seems, all psycho-analysts are liberals, afraid of guns and probably terrorist-sympathizers. TEXN is our enemy.
Link Posted: 9/19/2001 8:03:57 AM EDT
Originally Posted By sopmodm4: Naw,it ain't like that at all.I', talking mostly about the damned foreigners but as far as I am concerned listening on my phone or reading my email is aloready being done by nerds in cyberland anyway so why not the government.
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Humm, I would agree that non-US residents should be monitored in any way our government sees fit. I however disagree that US citizens should have their privacy invaded without a court order since this clearly violates our rights as citizens. Non-citizens in my opinion do not (or should not) enjoy the same liberty and protection that our citizens do. If you come here, be prepared to be scrutinized. That's very prudent. But again, there are plenty of US citizens who might sympathize with the enemy.
As long as I can keep my guns and not have someine actually entering my dwelling I could give a shit.I don't like the search and seizure aspect of the pending legislation but I don't plot illegal shit or email kiddy porn so I have nothing to worry about.
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I don't have anything to hide either. But your focus is on your Second Amendment rights. You say that as long as your guns aren't threatened you'll sign on to other violations of our liberties... which I think is misguided. Would you also agree that police should be able to search your car when ever they feel like it? Sure, you may have nothing to hide today, but what are you going to do when they ban that AR-15 you had behind the truck seat? Yesterday you didn't care if they inventoried your personal effects during illegal searches because you felt you had nothing to hide. Today your name is on a list of gun owners because they took notes about the items they found in your car. The FBI under the direction of J. Edger Hoover illegally tapped phone lines of celebrities and political figures. They collected evidence and kept records of everything people did so that they could brand people as "communists". Many people lost their jobs because of a single man and his abuse of power... and he, along with McCarthy unjustly accused hundreds of people of being "card carrying communists" because of things they did or said which could be twisted to support their paranoia. It is a wholly American notion that the people should [b]NEVER[/b] blindly trust a government. Once you turn a blind eye to government and surrender your most basic liberties, you empower it to become abusive and dangerous to the people it is to serve. This is documented throughout history and that's why our founding fathers so carefully authored our Constitution and Bill of Rights. I am totally against surrendering even one of our liberties in a quest for security. Ben Franklin said, and I paraphrase: Those who surrender liberty for security will have neither.
I think people that are overly private have something to hide and wonder what they are up to or what they are ashamed of.
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And some people think that those who own military type firearms and camouflage are a threat to our freedom and security. Since you're so anxious to prove to our government and fellow citizens that you have nothing to hide, are you willing to allow the government to rummage through your car, house, monitor all phone calls and email and follow you every where you go? If you are, you've lost complete sight of what it means to be an American and to live free.
Link Posted: 9/19/2001 8:04:58 AM EDT
...continued
Originally Posted By sopmodm4: I would have a fit if someone came into my house an rifled through my personal papers and such(as covered by the constituion)but the internet belongs to the government and they can do whatever they like with it.I'm just happy they let us civilians use it and add on to it for our own private use.
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I know you've said that you don't want them going through your house... but you're lacking continuity in your argument. You can't say, "ok -- you can search my car and read my email without a warrant but I don't want you in my house without a warrant". You either support the conventions of the Fourth Amendment or you don't. What you're saying here is that you don't really care about the protection the Fourth Amendment offers and you're willing to surrender those rights in your quest for security. And the Internet does [b]NOT[/b] belong to the government anymore than your telephone or the network behind it does, or letters in the US Mail do. Just because email is delivered electronically doesn't negate the privacy secured by the Fourth Amendment which you're applying to non-electronic communications. You're not being consistent. Also, the courts have maintained that phone calls and email are in fact protected (as they should be) by the Fourth Amendment. You're argument is just one step from supporting other limitations on our freedom. Would you also support basic restrictions on our First Amendment rights? Shouldn't we ban "hate speech"? If someone disagrees with the United States we shouldn't let them talk about that publicly on street corners or in print, should we? Free speech is very dangerous, especially if it incites people to disagree with the establishment. Would you also agree that it's reasonable to place restrictions on the types of weapons people can own? I mean, you don't trust people enough to be secure in their homes or in private communications, so why should we trust them with lethal weapons, especially those designed for militaries? Some people think those of us who own military type rifles have something to hide. We're secretly plotting the overthrow of our government and aren't to be trusted. There is no reason a good citizen should have a AR-15/M-16. You're shady if you do own one.
Link Posted: 9/19/2001 8:17:15 AM EDT
Didn't some one say something along the lines of "There is no such thing as freedoms, just freedom". Therefore, by giving up one of an individual's freedoms (those defined by the Constitution), does not one pave the way to lose ALL freedom?
Link Posted: 9/19/2001 8:17:49 AM EDT
Originally Posted By erickm: TEXN fancies himself to be some sort of psycho-analyst it seems, all psycho-analysts are liberals, afraid of guns and probably terrorist-sympathizers. TEXN is our enemy.
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I agree Texn possesses some liberal qualities. He ignores what you say, injects his own meaning into your words then blames [b]you[/b] for his own ignorance. Laugh. He mis-read (or ignored) my comments then went off on a rant about how un-American I am and a chicken sh*t to boot. Then when caught, instead of admitting fault he back peddles and claims I'm to fault for his stupidity. He also claims he represents the majority ("everyone") when in actuality he stands alone in his ignorance. I think the liberals have made a career out of such antics. I don't think he's the enemy though. He's just not the sharpest knife in the drawer. [:D]
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