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Posted: 9/14/2001 1:17:34 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/14/2001 1:18:32 PM EDT by Gunslinger]
No, this is not intended to be rascist in any manner. Nor am I posting it as a flame to any member on this board or those that wish to reside peacefully in this nation and be productive, of any (previous) nationality, color, religous beliefs or way of life. It is also my sincere hope that the post in response to this topic do not degenerate to the level that the staff feel a legitimate need to either delete or lock it. However, I am going to attempt to interject a bit of reality to this issue and make no apologies for that. It has been said both here and, I'm quite sure at other places across the country, that we need to learn from our past actions in incarcerating Japanese-Americans in the wake of Pearl Harbor. We, Americans and our parents that made that decision, are often criticize for having done that. But do we know what would have happened had we not done that? Of course not. There would be no way, in retrospect, that we could possibly know. Who among us is to say that had we not done that there would not have been Japanese-Americans that would have taken advantage of being allowed to work and walk freely among us would not have committed acts of terror then? I am not attempting to condone what was done more than fifty years ago by our parents and grandparents. I am simply providing food for thought. This brings us to modern America and where we find ourselves now. Certainly there are many Muslims currently living in this country here to get an education, work at much needed jobs and/or raise their families as a productive American. Those are Americans whom need no hyphen to be accepted as our fellow Americans and brothers in the struggle that is sure to come. But let us not over look, in the interest of "political correctness", that there are also those here that do not share those same values and sentiments. The cold, hard facts are we, America, are about to go to war. The degree of that war, the magnatude and where it will lead is not even known at this point by our leaders. But we do know that war is inevitable. We to know that the Arabic faith can be, with some at least be extreme and wreak distruction. Of that there should be no doubt any longer. Certainly there are, as noted above, "students" in this country that are here for nothing more than an education and they embrace American values and freedoms. But then......there were "students" in this country that learned how to fly 757 and 767 aircraft for the purpose of committing acts of terror and killing our fellow Americans. When we move into the next stage of this we are going to be faced with several people in this country that are torn between their patriotism to this country and that of their "home" country, faiths, beliefs or whatever one wishes to call it. Are those people going to side with their homeland and resist from our own shores? Only time will tell. But let us not ignore the enevitablity of this in the name of political correctness. Now this post may be viewed by the staff as beign racist and/or inflammitory. But bear in mind that I do not advocate attacking Arab-Americans. I also find the assaults on them as apalling as anyone here. But this is a reality that we are going to have to face at some point. I would like to think that the members here can visualize this and address it before it happens with cold reasoning and without prejudice.
Link Posted: 9/14/2001 1:34:55 PM EDT
Gunfighter, No flames from me on this. What you have described is exactly the thing that I've said all along. If we allow these cowardly attacks to turn us into a blind mob, striking out at people because of their race, religion, or nationality, we've help them to keep our country from becoming one great united peoples. Where we need to used extreme caution and wisdom is in treating folks with the benefit of the doubt and not to condemn an entire group of people because of the acts of a few lunatics.
Link Posted: 9/14/2001 1:35:14 PM EDT
I'm sure I'll get flamed for this, but given the circumstances of the time, I don't think the internment of the Japanese-Americans during WWII was wrong. There are some aspects that I think should have been handled better, but as a whole I don't believe it was a mistake. And even if today the ONLY way to prove which Arabs here in America are terrorists and which are not is by waiting for one of them to slam an airliner into a crowded office tower or sports stadium and then retroactively figuring out that maybe they were indeed terrorists, well, I don't have a big problem with modern internment camps, either. If that turns out to be the only way to garuantee our national security, then so be it. I know it sucks, but these type of attacks simply cannot be tolerated. Hopefully the Arab and Muslim communities will stop passively and even actively supporting terrorists and begin aggressively policing themselves before such draconian measures become necessary. I think that would be the best course.
Link Posted: 9/14/2001 1:38:29 PM EDT
Americans of Japanese descent were NOT interned in Hawaii. Pearl Harbor is in Hawaii BTW. At the start of WW2, the majority of all Japanese-Americans lived in Hawaii and the majority population of Hawaii at the time then and now are of Asian descent. Not one incident of espionage was documented by US intelligence at the hands of Japanese-Americans, that can't be said of the other Axis powers. The 442nd, a US Army unit exclusively made up of Japanese-American volunteers, went to war in Europe and to this day remain the most highly decorated military unit in the history of the United States. Remember these facts, before you question someones loyalty and before they even had a chance to prove themselves. Arab-Americans are Americans... period. Just like the Japanese-Americans, many were born here and do not even speak Arabic. Many of these same Arab-Americans left their countries due to deadly persecution resulting from being our former allies. Now I could see some justification for detaining and expelling foreign nationals with improper visas, but I hope we never, [b]NEVER[/b] make the mistake of interning Native Born Americans again.
Link Posted: 9/14/2001 1:57:52 PM EDT
No, we are simply not going to be the same hereafter in many, many ways. Never again will a flight instructor give flying lessons to students of Middle Eastern origin, without thinking in the back of his mind, What the Hell am I doing? Should I check with someone on this? Never again will you be able to go into a marketplace in a Middle Eastern area, without thinking in the back of your mind, What the Hell am I doing here? Shouldn't I have checked with someone on this? Never again will you be able to see someone who looks the way these folks will be shown to look, without feeling less certain about your personal safety, in airport areas, bus stops, federal buildings, wherever, and thinking, What the Hell am I or they even doing here? [b]And all that, my dear friends, is also a part of the crime that was committed in our country last Tuesday morning![/b] Eric The(SoSoonOld,SoLateSmart)Hun[>]:)]
Link Posted: 9/14/2001 3:53:23 PM EDT
Boomer: "Hopefully the Arab and Muslim communities will stop passively and even actively supporting terrorists and begin aggressively policing themselves before such draconian measures become necessary." You must be an expert on Arabs & Muslims to spew this type of BS. Where is your evidence that Arab & Muslim communities passively & actively support terrorism? Are you serious?!! That is THE dumbest thing I have read on here since this tragedy began. I certainly don't support it...so much for your Einstein-like theory. Modern day internment camps? Innocent until proven guilty ring a bell counselor? Lets just suspend the entire Constitution & put you in charge of Anarchy. Gunslinger: "We to know that the Arabic faith can be, with some at least be extreme and wreak distruction. Of that there should be no doubt any longer." I guess Timothy McVeigh, Ted Kazinski, the Columbine butchers, etc. must have been Islamic then. Extremists exist in ALL faiths, including the faithless. http://www.k-k-k.com/ You guys want to blame someone? Want to exact some justice? Guess what. So do the majority of people in this country...including the Arab/Muslim community. We are as American as you. We are as patriotic as you & we will defend this country with you...against all evil forces domestic or not. If you find those responsible in this country...do with them as you did with McVeigh. When he killed all those people, I didn't see you wanting to intern all Christians. Sigh....lets just burn the Bill of Rights & you guys can roam the streets with your ARs dispensing justice as you see fit. That will solve everything & prevent further attacks on this country. Think before you act. Speech is free but your actions will certainly display your character...or lack of it. Vent away. Flame off & Kevlar on.
Link Posted: 9/14/2001 4:01:57 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Boomer: I'm sure I'll get flamed for this, but given the circumstances of the time, I don't think the internment of the Japanese-Americans during WWII was wrong. There are some aspects that I think should have been handled better, but as a whole I don't believe it was a mistake.
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Just exactly what part of it was NOT wrong and NOT a mistake?
Link Posted: 9/14/2001 4:02:11 PM EDT
[b]McVeigh was a white "christian" male... Enough said![/b]
Link Posted: 9/14/2001 4:11:43 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Boomer: I'm sure I'll get flamed for this, but given the circumstances of the time, I don't think the internment of the Japanese-Americans during WWII was wrong.
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Ok. Lets see if it were applied to all people named Boomer. You only get to keep whatever you can carry with you to the camp, no guns. You will have to sell everything else off, like cars, house, etc, IF people want to buy from the "enemy" (you). Any offers you get will be FAR below market value. $100 for your car, $20 for your AR15...take it or leave it. Wow. Sounds like nothing wrong to me.
Link Posted: 9/14/2001 4:12:12 PM EDT
btw, just to educate a little: There is NO Arabic faith. There is an Arabic race language, lifestyle, etc. There IS an Islamic faith: & it is followed by about 30% of the world's population; white, black, brown, yellow, etc. Its foundations are: peace & tolerance.
Link Posted: 9/14/2001 4:16:44 PM EDT
Mr.Matrix, last night on italian TV there was a spokesman for a Muslim community talking about ".... we are over 15 millions in Europe... we are many..." and other things that sounded not very well to me (Christian). And neither to the moderator, a well-known leftist and -doh- of Hebraic faith religion. Then a journalist for a communist paper, who always supported Muslims against Israel (and their US allies) answered back the spokesman with " ... someone is trying to turn up the heat ...", and said from this man, believe it or not, it meant the situation was nearing boiling temperature. Of course noone is asking a free man to apologize for crimes never committed, but words like Jihad mean what they mean. Deaths, and we surely will see in the future US reaction, only call for more deaths.
Link Posted: 9/14/2001 4:23:41 PM EDT
There have been more deaths, murders, executions in the name of religion than for any other reason.... anybody remember a little thing called "the Crusades" ?? ALL religion, regardless of the "good-natured" lets all get along messages, by defintion do NOT accept any other religion. Each religion requires faith in that belief, and to acknowledge another person's beliefs as true or credible therefore diminish the belief of your religion as the "only true faith". Ban religion...and everybody will get along.. right?
Link Posted: 9/14/2001 4:25:16 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Imbroglio:
Originally Posted By Boomer: I'm sure I'll get flamed for this, but given the circumstances of the time, I don't think the internment of the Japanese-Americans during WWII was wrong.
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Ok. Lets see if it were applied to all people named Boomer. You only get to keep whatever you can carry with you to the camp, no guns. You will have to sell everything else off, like cars, house, etc, IF people want to buy from the "enemy" (you). Any offers you get will be FAR below market value. $100 for your car, $20 for your AR15...take it or leave it. Wow. Sounds like nothing wrong to me.
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nice point. and considering that is [b]EXACTLY[/b] what was occuring across the other pond in europe, i find it hard to believe that someone would support such and action. the end does NOT necessarily justify the means. not even in hindsight.
Link Posted: 9/14/2001 4:30:36 PM EDT
Hey man, the problem is fundamentalism. Be it Christian,Hebraic,Muslim. I personally know some people of Muslim faith. They are ok for me. I just don't like the kind of fanatism some rat is swinging araound like a blade on our heads.
Link Posted: 9/14/2001 4:34:42 PM EDT
Link Posted: 9/14/2001 4:36:09 PM EDT
I have an observation. I was in the Marines for 5 years. During that time I went to alot of places and met and worked with countless other Marines. I never met one, not even one, Marine of Arab background. I'm not saying to intern a race of people in the US, but I certainly think further immigration of Arab folks should be done under the upmost of scruntiny (sp). Having said this, after watching many hours of TV in the last 3 days I do believe most Arab Americans are as appalled as everyone else.
Link Posted: 9/14/2001 5:40:04 PM EDT
Matrix, I am basing my assesment of the reaction of the Arab communities based on what I have seen locally and on TV, which has thus far been appalingly little. If you'll go back a reread what I said about internment camps, you'll note I meant only as an absolute last resort. As in these types of attacks continue over a sustained period of time and we are unable to prevent them by any other means. Would you rather let this go on until we nothing but ruins left?
Link Posted: 9/14/2001 6:20:06 PM EDT
It was thought by those in authority in the United States at the time, extending all the way up the chain of command to FDR himself, that it was a [b]military necessity[/b] to relocate American Citizens of Japanese descent away from the West Coast. If you forget the tenor of the times, I think you should review your history of the period right after Pearl Harbor! We had just been struck a devestating blow by the [b]sneak[/b] attack and had no more idea of what Imperial Japan's next military move would be any more than we knew on December 6th! There was genuine fear among the citizens on the West Coast, as well as among our military leaders, that Japan may have conducted an invasion of the incredibly long, exposed, and generally undefended coastline! The Japanese Army in the Philippines and in Southeast Asia were simply overwhelming British Commonwealth and Dutch troops, as well as the Americans! For all the American public knew, an invasion of the West Coast might go just as easily! There were plenty reports of Japanese spys posing as other foreign nationals while they spied upon the American naval forces at Pearl Harbor prior to the attack of December 7th. If the Japanese military [u]could have launched even a limited attack against the West Coast, could you imagine what the fate of Japanese Americans might have been while they were fleeing alongside other non-Japanese Americans, if it was commonly thought that there may have been spys among the fleeing Japanese American citizens? What would be their treatment at check-points and defensive lines established by the American armed forces to cover the civilian retreat? It would, most likely, not have been a very pretty sight at all. The American military certainly came around to relying on the Japanese Americans' loyalty and trustworthiness as soldiers in Europe! So while the deed was not something we should be particularly proud of, it's not something I think we should be overly ashamed of either! It was fought in Court all the way up to the US Supreme Court, but the Roosevelt Administration and its War Relocation Act of 1942 were given the high court's approval in the end. So it was lawful in every way that can be said to be lawful in this Republic! Eric The(IfBlondesAttackAmerica,IWillBeHappyToBeGo­IntoDetention,IfThereIsAMilitaryNecessity)Hun­[>]:)]
Link Posted: 9/14/2001 6:32:07 PM EDT
Gunslinger, Boomer, uncleSAM, et al – I just looked at the Constitution again; I can’t find the part that allows for more than one class of citizen. Could you tell me where it is? I know it isn’t in the First Amendment, which only talks about freedom of speech, press and religion. I know it isn’t in the Fourth Amendment, it is concerned with securing rights against unreasonable searches and seizures. I know it isn’t in the Fifth, or Sixth, or Seventh Amendments, for they are about the limits on the Government in accusing, trying and punishing for a crime. It can’t be in Article III Section 3, that just defines treason as “only in levying war against them, or in adhering to their enemies, giving them aid and comfort. No person shall be convicted of treason unless on the testimony of two witnesses to the same overt act, or on confession in open court.” We’ve done some things in our country’s history to be ashamed of. Please don’t suggest that we do any more.
Link Posted: 9/14/2001 7:08:54 PM EDT
Paul: I think that if you looked like an Arab at this time you would be rather sensitive also to what is happening to the Muslim community...& what is being said on this board. I didn't think I was being "loud" but, oh well...the squeaky wheel gets the oil. Sorry, but I don't see where he is alluding to just the terrorist community. UncleSam: I'm not sure what relevance there is to the fact that you have not met even one Arab who is a Marine. Have you met every Marine everywhere? If not, maybe there is one Islamic Marine somewhere. Sagat: I did not see the program you are referring to but your rendition of it does not sound good to me either. Sounds like he was way off base with his cloaked threats. That is the last thing we need to be hearing. Fanatics don't sit well with me either. Boomer: Oh. As a last resort! Well, that changes everything...not. No. I don't want to see it in ruins, but I am NOT giving up my rights & civil liberties just 'cause you or anyone else says so. Certainly not because you think I look like a terrorist. So, if I understand correctly, by interning all the "terrorist looking" folks in this country you will be able to stop the onslaught of the fanatics from the other side of the planet? It sure stopped the war when the Japanese were interned. I don't have an easy answer for you. I want to stop the bastards also, but I can tell you quite frankly you will not do it at the expense of my freedom & way of life....that is just downright UN-American. Not unless you are willing to give up your freedoms & liberties as well...as a nation. "You can only protect your liberties in this world by protecting the other man's freedom. You can only be free if I am free." DARROW, CLARENCE, People v. Lloyd, 1920
Link Posted: 9/14/2001 7:13:31 PM EDT
It may have been legally correct, but that does not make it morally/ethically correct. I wonder how many Japanese were on the Supreme Court at the time.
Link Posted: 9/14/2001 7:27:59 PM EDT
With all the fear and confusion of the past few days I can now better understand why the Japanese-Americans were rounded up into camps. That's not to say I condone such action, I don't, BUT now I have a better understanding of what lead to the internments.
Link Posted: 9/14/2001 7:29:45 PM EDT
Post from Matrix -
It may have been legally correct, but that does not make it morally/ethically correct.
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That matters little, if at all, in a nation of laws, not of man. And because it has been held to be lawful, that is the end of the road for overturning it, I'm afraid that the Supreme Court has the final word in cases that come before it. If you want to change that, change the United States Constitution. You do know that the Japanese Americans weren't tortured and executed, don't you? So I find it difficult to believe that the United States Government has the right and authority to send 18 year olds, 19 year olds, 20 year olds, etc., into combat, but that it can't send citizens into a containment center when it's been determined to be a military necessity by the military and ordered by civilian authorities. Eric The(TheLaw'sTheLaw,FightItChangeIt,ButUntilTh­en,It'sStillTheLaw)Hun[>]:)]
Link Posted: 9/14/2001 7:35:35 PM EDT
Spoken as a true attorney. I am not interested in changing the Constitution. I am interested in preserving it & the Bill of Rights. "A nation of laws, not of man..." That remains to be seen by how its citizens are treated. It was legal to kill the Jews in Germany...ah well, the law is the law...isn't it?
Link Posted: 9/14/2001 7:48:27 PM EDT
I think we are all in agreement that not ALL arab muslims are out to slit our throats. But it stands to reason that ones raised in middle eastern countrys are brought up to belive that America is EVIL. Perhaps not all, i was not born nor have never been to the middle east. I also do not know much about the Muslim faith. I do know that I have a (white) Aunt that was brainwased by some Muslim women into joining some (neo?)muslim cult. I still want to kidnap her and have her deprogramed, but my uncle (her X) won't let me. Oh, and one of you asked "what did we ever do to them?" DO YOU LIVE IN A CAVE??? We as the "greatest country in the world" feel the need to let everone know it, and tend to put ourselves into situations that we really dont belong. If you missed it in the news articles, we (our CIA I think it was) funded, trained, and aided many of the now Terrorist orgs to fight off the Russians from holding onto Afghanistan. Bin Laden himself was one of these. Does anyone else think this whole thing reminds them of "The Siege"?
Link Posted: 9/14/2001 7:52:30 PM EDT
Definitely reminds me of The Siege....life imitates art...unfortunately.
Link Posted: 9/14/2001 7:53:52 PM EDT
Post from Matrix -
It was legal to kill the Jews in Germany...ah well, the law is the law...isn't it?
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Yes, but [u]that[/u] wasn't [u]our[/u] law now, was it? But do you grant that if there were a military necessity for relocating Japanese-Americans, and the military authorities insisted that it be done, that it must be done as surely as one must sign up for the draft in a war he's not completely sold on? Eric The(DroppingBombsOnCitiesInPeacetimeIs,YouKno­w,ACrime!)Hun[>]:)]
Link Posted: 9/14/2001 8:09:50 PM EDT
[left]How can we just let Arab-Americans just walk the street's heck some of those terrorist were Arab-Americans i would not mind at all if they all just pack there shit up and go back to were they come from period! These are question's i keep asking myself! this kind off thinking and mindset. i feel is what ben laden want's us to do is to drive these traitor's(Arab-Americans) out! then what the hell are we sopposed to do huh? you could have a terrorist stand next to you at any time and you just don't know it.[/left]
Link Posted: 9/14/2001 8:10:18 PM EDT
It wasn't our law but it is possible that it could happen here...ethnic cleansing has occurred in other civilized, first world nations that now look like war zones. Don't tell me it can't. We didn't believe that this type of attack could ever happen here & here it is. IF the military deems it necessary to "relocate" (thats a nice sanitary word) Muslims in this country into a concentration camp (non-sanitary words)...I for one would NOT agree to do so willingly. IF "allowed" to, I would leave the country & go elsewhere...Cayman Islands, Canada, whereever. IF not allowed to: it is better to die on your feet then live on your knees. I escaped Idi Amin ....I'm not about to give into another "facist regime" (you know what I mean so don't twist it) that wishes to deprive me of my rights...when I have committed no crimes & harmed no one. So to answer your question: no, I do not grant it. If it were a military necessity to give up your arms in the interest of national safety, would you do so? Its for the children. Molon Labe.
Link Posted: 9/14/2001 8:13:38 PM EDT
Originally Posted By MG_ME: [left]How can we just let Arab-Americans just walk the street's heck some of those terrorist were Arab-Americans i would not mind at all if they all just pack there shit up and go back to were they come from period! These are question's i keep asking myself! this kind off thinking and mindset. i feel is what ben laden want's us to do is to drive these traitor's(Arab-Americans) out! then what the hell are we sopposed to do huh? you could have a terrorist stand next to you at any time and you just don't know it.[/left]
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You mean if McVeigh were standing next to you you would not have known he was a terrorist, but if an Arab is standing next to you he might be one? Focus your hatred on the animals that did this. I don't have an easy answer for you...I want the bastards out of this country as badly as you do...probably more so.
Link Posted: 9/14/2001 9:19:20 PM EDT
By the way how many people know that the Japanese where not the only ones to be singled out for special treatment by our government. One of my friends told me that his father was not interred by the government but had his shortwave radio and his firearms confiscated, and his father is Italian. He also told me some Italians were confined to camps. So this was not done just to Asians My mother had a friend who lived in Hawaii during the attack on Pearl Harbor and she told her that some of the Japanese who lived there used trucks to block the roads and caused other acts of sabotage. If this is true then our government made the correct decision to intern the Japanese. Now as to the Arab Muslims in our country we will have to wait for a while to see what happens, since our government is rather sensitive about picking on a minority community. These are the facts as I see them, most people are not murderers and criminals including Arabs and Muslims in general, in fact I have a very good friend who is Muslim he is from Persia aka Iran, and he would never do anything violent and I would trust him with my life. I called him Tuesday and warned him to be careful because of what some people might do. But it is also a fact that not all the Muslims in our country like or have any loyalty to our country and in fact are only loyal to their old country and their religion. So what will these people do when a jihad is declared against the United States, I guess we will have to wait to find out. But if they do commit any acts of sabotage what should the reaction of the United States and the people be. We really need to think about this before we get too caught up in in condemning people who are afraid and want to go after all Muslims as racists. If only one or two small instances of sabotage occurs than maybe nothing much will happen, but if there are many or very serious acts of sabotage like maybe the poisoning of a water supply or attacking a school like the Palestinians have done in the past, that are committed by these Muslims then either the government has to intern them even if only for their own protection, or the people will out of fear and hate go after any Muslims or who ever they believe to be Muslim. This is only human nature when people are confronted by fear and fear of the unknown. Look at what happened because of the the Orson Wells radio show War of the Worlds people in New Jersey panicked when they thought they were being invaded by Martians and at least one farmer shot a water tower thinking it was one of the Martian machines. Hate and Fear are both the strongest of emotions and when you combine them the object of your hate and fear will naturedly suffer.
Link Posted: 9/14/2001 9:29:12 PM EDT
I am of the opinion that IF they break any laws, prosecute them to the full extent of the law. Why would the US Govt or anyone here wish to deprive American citizens of their constitutional rights? We have been fighting for the Constitution & BoR. Now this tragedy means that it only applies to some, but not all Americans. If so, then who is next? The Jews? The Buddhists? Blacks? Those without money over a certain level? Where is the line drawn, whom is it drawn by & who determines the criteria? I don't have the answers. It just seems very un-American to me. G'night all. Stay Safe.
Link Posted: 9/14/2001 9:42:20 PM EDT
Just look at what you're saying [b]Matrix![/b] By altering the words you chose to refute the military necessity argument for relocation (it was simply called that by the authorities, I guess they could have called it 'raptured' if they had a mind to), you could also have the following argument: IF the military deems it necessary to "draft" (thats a nice sanitary word) young men in this country into a military organization (non-sanitary words)...I for one would NOT agree to do so willingly. IF "allowed" to, I would leave the country & go elsewhere...Cayman Islands, [b]Canada[/b], wherever. IF not allowed to: it is better to die on your feet then live on your knees. I escaped Idi Amin ....I'm not about to give into another "facist regime" (you know what I mean so don't twist it) that wishes to deprive me of my rights...when I have committed no crimes & harmed no one. But yet as a draft dodger you would be guilty of a crime, because the military authorities have decreed that you are subject to the draft, that it's a military necessity that our country raise an army for its defense by drafting certain of its young men into a military organization, and that you are one of those certain young men. They then arm and clothe you, train you, discipline you, transport you, and drop you off in some foreign field, in the midst of a battle and say kill or be killed! But that's OK for citizens, but relocation of certain groups of citizens under the same military necessity circumstances is absolutely forbidden! Eric The(InterestingConcept,WonderWhyNoOneThoughtO­fIt?)Hun[>]:)]
Link Posted: 9/14/2001 11:29:56 PM EDT
I haven't heard anything about Arab-Americans being involved in any of the news reports. These were all foreign nationals, from Egypt, Saudi Arabia and Palestine. Not US citizens. Until we hear otherwise, lets stick with the facts please.
So this was not done just to Asians My mother had a friend who lived in Hawaii during the attack on Pearl Harbor and she told her that some of the Japanese who lived there used trucks to block the roads and caused other acts of sabotage. If this is true then our government made the correct decision to intern the Japanese.
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That is absolutely not true, there were ZERO acts of Sabotage done by Japanese Americans. How do I know? My source is not 3rd hand, one is the US intelligence reports and the other is my mom. She was born and raised in Hawaii as was her parents and the rest of my relatives. And it was multi generational American Born Japanese that were interned not Japanese Nationals. All Japanese Nationals were expelled from the country at the beginning of the war and they were not interned. If there was truly any kind of security risk, the US government should have, [b]logically[/b], interned all of the Japanese Americans in Hawaii and left the ones on the mainland alone. Again, the vast majority of Japanese Americans resided in Hawaii not the mainland and have so since the turn of the century. There was only one reason for the mainland internment, racial prejudice. Hawaii was the only part of US territory to be attacked and the only region at the greatest risk of being attacked again. To leave the Hawaiians unmolested and intern the mainlanders goes beyond all logic and reason. Think about it!
Link Posted: 9/15/2001 12:10:22 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/15/2001 12:11:06 AM EDT by Imbroglio]
Like I said before, for some it is ok to "legally" put someone in a forced relocation camp, just as long as it isn't going to be applied those supporting the action. "In Germany the Nazis came first for the Communists, and I didn't speak up. I felt that since I wasn't a Communist it was no concern of mine. Then they came for the Jews, and I didn't speak up. I felt that since I wasn't a Jew, it was not my affair. Then they came for the labor leaders, and I didn't speak up. I felt that since I was not a labor leader or even a member of a union, it was none of my business. By the time they came for me because of my liberal views, it was too late. there was no one left to speak up." - Pastor Neimoller
Link Posted: 9/15/2001 1:50:17 PM EDT
Originally Posted By EricTheHun: Just look at what you're saying [b]Matrix![/b] By altering the words you chose to refute the military necessity argument for relocation (it was simply called that by the authorities, I guess they could have called it 'raptured' if they had a mind to), you could also have the following argument: IF the military deems it necessary to "draft" (thats a nice sanitary word) young men in this country into a military organization (non-sanitary words)...I for one would NOT agree to do so willingly. IF "allowed" to, I would leave the country & go elsewhere...Cayman Islands, [b]Canada[/b], wherever. IF not allowed to: it is better to die on your feet then live on your knees. I escaped Idi Amin ....I'm not about to give into another "facist regime" (you know what I mean so don't twist it) that wishes to deprive me of my rights...when I have committed no crimes & harmed no one. But yet as a draft dodger you would be guilty of a crime, because the military authorities have decreed that you are subject to the draft, that it's a military necessity that our country raise an army for its defense by drafting certain of its young men into a military organization, and that you are one of those certain young men. They then arm and clothe you, train you, discipline you, transport you, and drop you off in some foreign field, in the midst of a battle and say kill or be killed! But that's OK for citizens, but relocation of certain groups of citizens under the same military necessity circumstances is absolutely forbidden! Eric The(InterestingConcept,WonderWhyNoOneThoughtO­fIt?)Hun[>]:)]
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I would gladly join the US Armed Forces if drafted. Wouldn't think twice about it & would be willing to put my life on the line to defend this nation. However, I am not willing to allow anyone, including my govenment to relocate me into a concentration camp because they feel I might be a threat. I don't see how wanting to retain my freedom is a crime. Its not the same by my perception. I don't see how you can equate the two. On the one hand, you agree to fight for freedom, on the other your freedoms are stripped from you. What about my last question? Would you be willing to hand over your firearms in the interest of national safety if the military deemed it necessary? It would be a crime to keep them? Not so easy when its your freedoms being stripped.
Link Posted: 9/15/2001 8:19:16 PM EDT
To Matrix and others, I wish I had all of your moral rightenoes. I don't think we should intern Arab-Americans. Having said that, pruedence demands that we take a close look at Middle Eastern immigrants. If ya'll haven't noticed, the world is a different place than it was on Tuesday and I'm sorry, but some folks in the US are going to get there civil liberties infringed on a little. SO BE IT!!
Link Posted: 9/15/2001 8:41:53 PM EDT
some folks in the US are going to get there civil liberties infringed on a little. SO BE IT!!
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It is so easy to give up the rights of others. Just remember when it is your turn, your pleas for help will fall upon deaf ears.
Link Posted: 9/15/2001 9:39:17 PM EDT
Originally Posted By uncleSAM: To Matrix and others, I wish I had all of your moral rightenoes. I don't think we should intern Arab-Americans. Having said that, pruedence demands that we take a close look at Middle Eastern immigrants. If ya'll haven't noticed, the world is a different place than it was on Tuesday and I'm sorry, but some folks in the US are going to get there civil liberties infringed on a little. SO BE IT!!
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Some have lost more than their civil liberties. What about immigrants from other countries other than the Middle East who happen to maybe look like they are from the Middle East, but are not? What about terrorists that are born here in the USA such as McVeigh? Should we be discussing interning Christians & wasps? Didn't think so. I've never been accused of being morally righteous. I have been accused of being a gun nut & being overly aggressive of protecting the US Constitution....like thats an insult or something! Kinda sad when supporting what the founders of this country wanted makes you an outcast. "You need only reflect that one of the best ways to get yourself a reputation as a dangerous citizen these days is to go about repeating the very phrases which our founding fathers used in the great struggle for independence." BEARD, CHARLES AUSTIN (attributed) I find it very curious & disturbing that for months I have been reading this board & various people have been supporting the Constitution & swearing to protect it. But now, it only applies to certain groups of individuals...according to some. "When even one American-who has done nothing wrong-is forced by fear to shut his mind and close his mouth, then all Americans are in peril." TRUMAN, HARRY S.
Link Posted: 9/16/2001 12:06:20 PM EDT
Geez, how about dropping the Timothy McVeigh angle already? Really, it's not that relevant and has grown quite tiresome. If terrorism by us whities was anywhere near as prevalent as that perpertrated by members of Arab communities around the world, I'm sure we would look at ourselves quite differently.
Link Posted: 9/16/2001 12:22:47 PM EDT
Really? How is the loss of all those lives in OK City not relevant? Or do you measure the criminal degree of an activity by the number of people that have been killed? A few hundred lives is ok, but a few thousand is not? I'll drop McVeigh per your request.
Link Posted: 9/16/2001 12:41:44 PM EDT
Degree of lives lost has nothing to do with it. It's irrelevant because you are comparing an anomaly (Timothy McVeigh attacking a government target) to a common occurance (Fundamentalist Islamic terrorist attacks upon harmless civilian populations).
Link Posted: 9/16/2001 1:18:45 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Matrix: Really? How is the loss of all those lives in OK City not relevant? Or do you measure the criminal degree of an activity by the number of people that have been killed? A few hundred lives is ok, but a few thousand is not? I'll drop McVeigh per your request.
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Mc Veigh never alleged he was doing it as an act of his religious faith. I am not sure what the Muslim Jihad means. My understanding is that it means a "holy" war. Like so many other wars in the name of God it is most likely misplaced religious zealotry. In this case it seems that these terrorists WERE Arabic Muslims. Not from the other Islamic states or venues such as the Philippines, black, brown, white or otherwise. It is really sad that this small group of extremists have caused all of us to react differently toward Arabic persons than before. I am being affected too and I hate it. Matrix sounds like a fine American. As gun owners we have all been a little bit persecuted for our beliefs(albeit constitutional rather than religious). My empathy is with Matrix. Unfortunately, I feel that we should deport and close the borders to Arabic persons who are not citizens of the U.S., particularly the ones who only want pilot lessons to learn only in the air maneuvers (but not limited by that criteria). I can't believe I am saying this but that is what this crime has done to me. However, if this war is to be won. I also believe we will need Patriotic Arabic citizens to assist us in infiltrating and understanding the real enemy. It is terrible that these crimes have led many of us to look different at Arabic and foreign neighbors (but it has). I am concerned that there may be U.S. Arabic or Muslim citizens that may have known or been related to these terrorists but would not report them (maybe like Italian Americans who know Mafia members but won't say anything). Matrix, what is your feeling on whether that happens (if you know)? Imbroglio's comments help me personally to get some perspective on this matter. We must be careful of limiting freedoms for all citizens. It is easy to try to simplify these matters with innate prejudicial fixes. But ultimately such matters will affect us all. It is a bigger crime that this terrorism has placed a person like Matrix in a defensive posture. Unfortunately, most of us have only seen American hating Arabic people dancing in the street and not the others who are in as much pain as ourselves. And Matrix it is hard to get beyond this racial hatred they have for us Christian looking infidels with mass murder bullseyes on our heads and supposed god given rewards for suicidal extermination of us. This doesn't do a lot for us infidels who don't look Muslim. We have to take actions to protect ourselves and in this case the enemy does look Arabic. Thus our concerns are somewhat warranted. I think we could use some Arabic patriotic heroes in this fight and I hope it happens soon. We need it to dispel the pain and resurrect the reputation of your people. More than ever we need to be a nation together and not divided by prejudice. That will probably be the hardest challenge. Well having typed all that I can't even remember if this is related to this thread so I will hop off my soap box. [soapbox] I'm out. [peep]
Link Posted: 9/16/2001 5:21:06 PM EDT
Originally Posted By uncleSAM: ...but some folks in the US are going to get there civil liberties infringed on a little. SO BE IT!!
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just so long as it isn't yours, right?????? [V]
Link Posted: 9/16/2001 5:49:03 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Sodie: I haven't heard anything about Arab-Americans being involved in any of the news reports. These were all foreign nationals, from Egypt, Saudi Arabia and Palestine. Not US citizens. Until we hear otherwise, lets stick with the facts please.
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Why haven't the #%#@%#@$ camel loving arabs in Dearborn, MI made the news? The SOBs also celebrated in the streets after the cowards attacked the US. The liberal media has covered this up pretty well. They've shown children from a white school in Dearborn honoring the victims, not the white sale wearing cranium idiots celebrating the death of innocent Americans. People must realize that there ARE things like this alive in the USA. Perhaps they should be sent to a much warmer climate. [-!-] SamC
Link Posted: 9/16/2001 6:01:46 PM EDT
Originally Posted By ARlady:
Originally Posted By uncleSAM: ...but some folks in the US are going to get there civil liberties infringed on a little. SO BE IT!!
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just so long as it isn't yours, right?????? [V]
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Yeah, let's wait until the casualty count reaches the millions before we take any pre-emptive action. [:(!]
Link Posted: 9/16/2001 7:30:44 PM EDT
Post from sodie -
If there was truly any kind of security risk, the US government should have, logically, interned all of the Japanese Americans in Hawaii and left the ones on the mainland alone. Again, the vast majority of Japanese Americans resided in Hawaii not the mainland and have so since the turn of the century. There was only one reason for the mainland internment, racial prejudice. Hawaii was the only part of US territory to be attacked and the only region at the greatest risk of being attacked again. To leave the Hawaiians unmolested and intern the mainlanders goes beyond all logic and reason. Think about it!
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Yes, we've all thought about it for quite some time. The reason that the Japanese American citizens in Hawaii were not relocated is due to the fact they were on an island! Insofar as Hawaii being the 'only part of US territory to be attacked and the only region at the greatest risk of being attacked again', well, the military authorities didn't know that in April, 1942, when the mainland relocations began, now, did they? They had absolutely no idea where Japan would strike next. You should ask around and figure out whether the West Coast of America was just a bit panicked over possible Jappanese landings. That [u]no[/u] landings would [u]ever[/u] occur was a fact that was not obvious in 1942! And if it were simply [b]racial prejudice[/b] that was the basis for the relocation, then how did the Japanese Americans living in Hawaii escape the relocation virus? Is racial hatred lessened by distance over water? What about Japanese American citizens residing on the East Coast, how did they escape the racial hatred of America's leaders? And those living in the South and Midwest, what about them? Racial hatred should be relatively unrelated to latitude and longitude, but it surely appears it was here! How about the very simple answer - American military authorities did not perceive a military necessity for any further relocations other than what was done on the West Coast! Was racial hatred the reason that the same military commanders permitted the creation of the Nisei regiements (442nd Reg.) who fought with distinction in the European Theatre! Do you really think that racial hatred was a reason for the United States military [b]not[/b] to assign any Nisei troops to the Pacific Theatre? Or simply military necessity? The War Relocation Act of 1942 was not the best moment of the America's defense of freedom during World War II, but it is totally and completely overwhelmed by the actions of others nations in this respect! It must be viewed in context with what was known in those days, not with 20-20 hindsight several decades later! Eric The(HopefullyThisNeverHappensAgain,ButTheCons­titutionIsSimplyNotASuicidePact!)Hun[>]:)]
Link Posted: 9/16/2001 7:32:30 PM EDT
Blackholegun: "Matrix, what is your feeling on whether that happens (if you know)?" I don't have any first hand knowledge about this but it seems VERY likely to me that these animals had assistance from sympathizers in this country. We need to find them & dispense justice. To those that helped these cowards: If you are not FOR this country, then you are against it & have no business being here. I hope the FBI is successful in finding these criminals & dealing with them accordingly. SamC: If that really occurred I am deeply saddened. There is NO excuse to be celbrating the deaths of innocent civilians. They seem like fanatics to me. I agree: they need to go somewhere warmer. Boomer: We are taking pre-emptive action. God willing we will never be caught sleeping again in such a fashion. As for the McVeigh thing: lets just agree to disagree & drop it. I'm quiet tired of talking about that scumbag also.
Link Posted: 9/16/2001 7:44:13 PM EDT
Blackholegun: "It is a bigger crime that this terrorism has placed a person like Matrix in a defensive posture. Unfortunately, most of us have only seen American hating Arabic people dancing in the street and not the others who are in as much pain as ourselves. And Matrix it is hard to get beyond this racial hatred they have for us Christian looking infidels with mass murder bullseyes on our heads and supposed god given rewards for suicidal extermination of us. This doesn't do a lot for us infidels who don't look Muslim. We have to take actions to protect ourselves and in this case the enemy does look Arabic. Thus our concerns are somewhat warranted." Yes. Your concerns are warranted. If its any consolation to you, I am as much an enemy to them as you are: by simply being here. By being American. By having a wasp Christian wife. By any number of other things. I've never been to the Middle East. I know as much about it as any other American who watches TV or attends formal education. Its not a place I wish to visit although my religion does call for me to visit Mecca at least once in my life...if it remains standing after this tragedy. I don't blame you all for feeling the way you do. However, I am an American & will defend my civil liberties, freedom & life as need be. I will not allow fire bombs, bullets, beatings or any other harm to befall my family or myself because of the fear that has been instilled in America. Its a difficult situation for all. I am a prisoner in my own home. I choose not to go out to the places I typically went...unless I'm armed & I have never concealed carried on my person until Wednesday...even though I have had a CCW for over two years. I don't have any easy answers for you but I mourn this occurrence with you all & am as eager for justice as you all are against the bastards that did this. God Bless America & keep us from harms way.
Link Posted: 9/17/2001 1:29:08 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Matrix: We are as American as you. We are as patriotic as you & we will defend this country with you...against all evil forces domestic or not. Sigh....lets just burn the Bill of Rights & you guys can roam the streets with your ARs dispensing justice as you see fit. That will solve everything & prevent further attacks on this country.
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You don't like generalisations and then you go on to make one. Knowing a large number of immigrants from the middle east who are muslims (mostly from Iraq & Lebanon - of which a few are also christian) I can say that some are very american in identification and belief; some are ambivalent and have a negative outlook on the US mainly due to our foreign policy but for other reasons as well; some are just here to make $$ and could care less about politics, the constitution, whatever. Few would commit violence. I don't know any muslims from SE asia or other parts of the world and would not speculate on their viewpoints. Now, clearly there are at least a few bad apples. As mentioned: the guy on the bridge looking at the WTC who burst into spontaneous applause immediately upon the planes impacting, praising his "arab brothers." I mean WTF is that guy doing here when he clearly hates us SO MUCH. Or the local gas station bozo here in MI who in an ecstatic mood decided to screw his fellow americans by raising the price to $5/gallon immediately - and claiming it was out of his control due to the oil companies (which had frozen the supplied price) - and stupidly gloated to his customers - and may be heading off to an unpaid vacation... Or the guy that diverted needed police/fire resources in NY to his fake hate crime gas station arson. Or the hijacker who was supposedly living here as a family man, and not just some young single guy flown in from Germany, the UAE, wherever for "flight instruction." Not all are as patriotic as you are Matrix. Muslims come in all flavors. The sympathies that many have for their co-religionists in conflict (Palestinians, etc) has resulted in an intense hatred, not unlike the intolerance of christians at their height during the crusades. Thankfully in the main most are of no problem to anybody. Or we would be in serious trouble. There has been some "profiling" obviously - which may have saved lives. And some that are not in the end prosecuted may be deported. But I would have to say that you are being overly melodramatic in your remarks about burning the bill of rights. Most americans have never experienced anything like this in their lives and are simply venting. Very HUMAN. I appreciated your thoughtful use of reason.
Link Posted: 9/17/2001 1:31:51 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Matrix: Definitely reminds me of The Siege....life imitates art...unfortunately.
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Terrible movie. I was really expecting more. I mean some FBI agent arresting a General in command of an area under martial law? Please
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