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Posted: 9/13/2001 8:25:14 AM EDT
What are people's opinions on this? As long as there are no strip searches, how can the stop some terrorist from carrying the CIA letter opener on their body onboard? Just my opinion, but they can't and the latest cermaic/synthetic models are pretty scarey and fully effective. [url]http://amos.catalogcity.com/cc.class/cc/rmivars%3ftarget=_top?pcd=806354&ccsyn=15[/url] [img]http://a1416.g.akamaitech.net/f/1416/281/24h/ccimg.catalogcity.com/180000/185200/185250/products/pg0039-p002.jpg[/img] [url]http://shop.store.yahoo.com/botach/blaccolciale.html[/url] [img]http://store5.yimg.com/I/botach_1653_29076335[/img]
Link Posted: 9/13/2001 8:30:18 AM EDT
Link Posted: 9/13/2001 8:35:53 AM EDT
Yes, we can stop it. With a 3.5 inch emerson! Or better, a sky marshall with a MP5K, loaded with nylon bullets.
Link Posted: 9/13/2001 8:36:49 AM EDT
Two words: Air Marshalls.
Link Posted: 9/13/2001 8:38:30 AM EDT
I don't think knives are going to work anymore. If I'm on a plane and someone pulls a knife and attempts to highjack. I will at least die fighting and I don't expect to be alone.
Link Posted: 9/13/2001 8:40:29 AM EDT
Better to die fighting, than cowering in the back of theplane with the women and children.
Link Posted: 9/13/2001 8:53:20 AM EDT
A terrorist with connections could than walk right on to a plane with a gun under the cover of an air marshall. just a thought. [sniper]
Link Posted: 9/13/2001 10:29:56 AM EDT
There's always a means to get some type of fighting tool on board an aircraft, like hiding something in the sole of your shoe for instance. Secure cockpits, pilots armed, and a Sky Marshalls are a good start.
Link Posted: 9/13/2001 10:31:22 AM EDT
What about replica guns. These guns below have very very few metal parts. they could easily be removed and the gun sneaked passed a metal detector. The average person would believe its real. [img]http://airsoftkorea.com/gun/pistol/berettam9specialist/05.jpg[/img] [img]http://airsoftkorea.com/gun/pistol/coltdefenders/08.jpg[/img] [img]http://airsoftkorea.com/gun/pistol/hkusp/01.jpg[/img]
Link Posted: 9/13/2001 10:46:54 AM EDT
This airsoft gus are a good example. They are mostly plastic, all of the metal parts could be made of plastic by terrorists and replaced. The barrel just needs to be ceramic inside with hard plastic outside, and you have a functional undetectable gun. It wouldn't last 1000's of rounds, but it would function for the one or two magazines a terrorist would carry. Everyone that laughs at the idea of a plastic undetectable gun, or would say it needs space age materials isn't thinking about the fact a terrorist is not a soldier, they only need to get a few rounds off to scare or assasinate.
Link Posted: 9/13/2001 10:56:46 AM EDT
One easy solution is to arm the pilot with a auto shotgun. Another option is to give him a good stronglocked door, portable oxygen, and the ability to decompress the rest of the airplane without passenger masks falling. As soon as everyone is knocked out, go out and toss the hijackers out the door.
Link Posted: 9/13/2001 10:57:45 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/13/2001 10:58:35 AM EDT by BCBUD]
If i was a terrorist, i would personally use a CIA knife in combination with an airsoft gun. "guns for show, knives for a pro" stab people who get too close if they do. Point the gun to scare people and let them know you mean business Not to sound cold hearted or a terrorist or anything, i'm just saying for the sake of conversation.
Link Posted: 9/13/2001 11:28:17 AM EDT
Unfortunately, you can actually make a zip gun out of rolled up paper, matches and a pencil. Inmates use these all the time to shoot prison guards. And prisoners use just about anything and everything to stab each other. Plastic utensils, pieces of wood, razors, chunks of metal, ceramic tile, tooth brushes, combs, brushes, shoes, pencils, etc. If they can do it, terrorist can do it too.
Link Posted: 9/13/2001 11:32:00 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Sukebe: I don't think knives are going to work anymore. If I'm on a plane and someone pulls a knife and attempts to highjack. I will at least die fighting and I don't expect to be alone.
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Right next to you.... Ranger Out
Link Posted: 9/13/2001 4:52:09 PM EDT
Remember this gun? [img]http://www.classicgaming.com/museum/nes/nes.jpg[/img] That gun can be seen on the X-ray detector quite clearly as can other plastic items. They just look different from the metal ones. If you wanted to risk arrest or end up getting beat to death by passengers, take a water gun, paint it black, then wear it through the magnometer. If you want access to an effective blade on an aircraft, take a music or computer CD on, then if you need it, snap it in two...instant knife. Yet another point that exhibits that the FAA is just furthing the existing Airport Security Show. - Robbie
Link Posted: 9/13/2001 5:10:07 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Lihr: A terrorist with connections could than walk right on to a plane with a gun under the cover of an air marshall. just a thought. [sniper]
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Or find some way to grab the gun from the sky marshal. Either way, NOBODY is ever going to believe a hijacker ever again when he says, "You will be unharmed, if you cooperate." Nobody wants to be the next crew of victims going to their destruction, used as ballast in a flying bomb. Unarmed or not, even if the hijacker grabbed an MP-5 and started firing it, enough people would be so desperate, they'd charge him anyway, since NOBODY HAS ANYTHING LEFT TO LOSE! Arm passengers. It's the only way.
Link Posted: 9/13/2001 5:14:03 PM EDT
Either way, NOBODY is ever going to believe a hijacker ever again when he says, "You will be unharmed, if you cooperate."
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Bingo. And even some "air rage" incident where some guy goes off on a flight attendant may result in the passengers beating the guy to death. - Robbie
Link Posted: 9/13/2001 7:58:52 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Robbie: That gun can be seen on the X-ray detector quite clearly as can other plastic items. They just look different from the metal ones. /quote] If the knife is on your person you don't walk through an X-ray detector so it would not be detected correct?
Link Posted: 9/13/2001 8:06:36 PM EDT
Imagine Dirtball standing up in front of the cockpit, pulling out a cell phone, pressing and holding a button, and just telling everyone it is the trigger for a bomb in the luggage compartment and if his finger comes off the button the bomb blows. Until Tuesday, that probably would have gotten Dirtball control of the airplane. And it still might. Nowadays I guess passengers must just conclude they are already dead upon the hijack occurring and clobber Dirtball no matter the threat.
Link Posted: 9/13/2001 8:16:56 PM EDT
*marks a point on the chart for bbauman* The device you walk through is often called a magnometer. It detects metal by sending out a pulse on a given frequency something like a radio wave. Items on your person that are condusive to electricity reflect some of that energy back and the magnometer hears it as an echo. It is highly adjustable so as not to be set off by wedding rings and other such things. The hand-held metal detectors usually use a different technology to acheive the same thing, but only metallic type objects are what set them off. The X-ray machine is completely different using...well...x-ray technology along with some computer enhancements to see pretty much everything. You can tell the difference between an orange and a plastic ball and a grenade. This is not news to terrorists as this information is publically available. As you correctly stated, a metal detector is not designed to pick up plastic items. This is one of the reasons why the FAA's published security methods so far are kind of a joke other than to make a big Airport Security Show.
Link Posted: 9/13/2001 8:18:37 PM EDT
Originally Posted By dogbert4-1: One easy solution is to arm the pilot with a auto shotgun. Another option is to give him a good stronglocked door, portable oxygen, and the ability to decompress the rest of the airplane without passenger masks falling. As soon as everyone is knocked out, go out and toss the hijackers out the door.
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A shotgun would kill a load of passengers even if well 'aimed'.
Link Posted: 9/14/2001 12:50:32 AM EDT
IMHO this isn't complicated - arm the cockpit crew. Most of the pilots are ex-military anyway - this could be done in a day (or less!!).
Link Posted: 9/14/2001 1:19:26 AM EDT
Link Posted: 9/14/2001 2:12:26 AM EDT
What about sleepy-time gas as was mentioned before? It would have to be isolated from the cockpit air supply, but it should do the job. And it's a lot cheaper than paying a bunch of Air Marshalls, which is the real problem (money as always).
Link Posted: 9/14/2001 2:25:30 AM EDT
How about a CCW that is specially setup for Air Travel Carry. More of an extensive training course "course not class" and requirement for only certain types of ammunition and weapons. Or at the very least arm/train flight attendants for these types of scenarios.
Link Posted: 9/14/2001 4:16:28 AM EDT
I say we all fly "NAAAY - KED"! M.
Link Posted: 9/14/2001 4:47:54 AM EDT
I think "knockout gas" is pure Hollywood, although I could be wrong. When you get zonked by the anasthesiologist (sp) in the ER, he/she has to tailor the dose specifically for the patient. Weight, size, age, health, and allergies are all factors. If you just doused the plane with gas, small children would probably be killed, while sumo wrestlers would probably just get a little dizzy. I think pepper spray would be much more effective.
Link Posted: 9/14/2001 4:51:35 AM EDT
THis might sound stupid, but my wife and I have been discussing it for a while, why not have a button in the cockpit that once pushed disallows all input from the flight controls and by using a GPS and their current coordinates, picks an airport to land at, and does so under autopilot. The pilot seeing a hijacking in process hits the button, and the plane begins its descent, nothing the hijackers can do at that point.
Link Posted: 9/14/2001 11:20:47 AM EDT
One of the things that the cockpit crew can do is lower the amount of oxygen (really, just drop the pressure) in the cabin. From what I've heard, it's a fairly common tactic for dealing with a bunch of drunks, say, on a New Year's Eve flight. I was on one flight where they had the dial set low for no discernible reason; I was showing clear signs of hypoxia. Had to bitch at the stewardess to get them to crank it up.
Link Posted: 9/14/2001 11:50:44 AM EDT
Anybody know why [i]El Al[/i] planes don't get hijacked? Two things: 1. Cockpit cabin door takes about 5 minutes to hack through. (Boing has had a kevlar door for quite some time, airlines would not install it because of $$$). 2. By that time, the crew has retrieved the stored gun and is waiting for them. Double tap, center of torso. Ammunition is probably subsonic hollow points, but at that distance it would still be effective. holdHard
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