Warning

 

Close

Confirm Action

Are you sure you wish to do this?

Confirm Cancel
Member Login

Log In

A valid email is required.
Password is required.
Posted: 9/12/2001 8:57:36 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/12/2001 8:58:01 AM EDT by 89Saleen]
I bought a new G19 Monday. The salesman was showing me everything that came with my new pistol. A small envelope with 2 spent shell casings from my Glock were in it. It had written on it the model no., serial no., who took the sample, date, etc. He said that some states require that little envelope to be shipped to the state for their records. I was like WTF. I always thought that balistics were taken from the bullet not the casing. It makes me wonder if the bullet was sent to the BATF or if Glock is keeping them for their records. Has Glock become another S&W??????
Link Posted: 9/12/2001 9:23:03 AM EDT
Don't go after Glock! They're not S&W. In many states, including NY, the manufacturer must include fired cases with any NEW gun sold. These are sent to the State Police. If the manufacturer does not include fired cases, the FFL has to drive for about an hour or hour and a half to one of a limited number of State Police facilities, wait around for the State Police to fire the pistol, drive back and then sell the gun. Glock probably doesn't want to have 2 identical guns in its inventory system -- one with fired cases and one without. Easier to just have fired cases with all new guns. Every time metal is worked with a tool, the tool will leave marks which can be compared. Your pistol is a tool and will leave ejector and firing pin marks as well as an impression of the marks in your chamber and bolt face. There are now sophisticated computer programs that can store all of these pictures and compare them with shells found at a crime site. As far as I know, the cases are not sent to ATF. However, the computer systems share data -- both within the US and without. Popular Mechanics or Popular Science has an article on these systems in the most recent issue (just hit the newsstands). In NY, this requirement does not apply to used pistols. Oddly enough, used pistols may have become more popular. Also, as far as I know, nothing prevents you from buying your new gun and immediately changing the firing pin, extractor and barrel. (Note that you still have the same bolt face marks unless you change that to.) You should check with an attorney knowledgeable in Firearms Laws in your state (including NY) before you attempt to circumvent this "reasonable and necessary" scheme for the "protection of the public".
Link Posted: 9/12/2001 10:02:23 AM EDT
I agree with Frances. The "gun" that you're purchasing is really just the frame. Or, for an AR15, you only do the federal paperwork on the lower receiver because that's the "firearm." You can buy all the upper receivers (or slides for a new breech, extractors, ejectors, barrels) you want. No paperwork and no limitations on replacing those parts. Of course, you can't turn your postban AR15 into a 10.5" barreled Commando with a flash suppressor, but I think you get my point.... Another interesting point on the Glocks. I recently received first hand information that our crime lab was not able to do ballistic comparisons on Glocks because the polygonal rifling that Glock uses in their barrels does not leave sufficient identifying marks on the bullets to differentiate projectiles fired from different barrels. [b]Anyone have any more information on this?[/b]
Link Posted: 9/12/2001 10:09:08 AM EDT
GLOCK does indeed voluntarily submit spent casings from every new gun to the ATF. It was documented a few years ago in GLOCK's own GLOCK Annual. as a general rule of thumb the first and second generation guns were produced prior to the "fingerprinting." The whole point is that they want to be able to pick up casings from a homicide scene and find out who the last legitimate purchaser was.
Link Posted: 9/12/2001 2:54:38 PM EDT
Originally Posted By JacRyan: You can buy all the upper receivers (or slides for a new breech, extractors, ejectors, barrels) you want. No paperwork and no limitations on replacing those parts. Another interesting point on the Glocks. I recently received first hand information that our crime lab was not able to do ballistic comparisons on Glocks because the polygonal rifling that Glock uses in their barrels does not leave sufficient identifying marks on the bullets to differentiate projectiles fired from different barrels. [b]Anyone have any more information on this?[/b]
View Quote
NO need tobuy different slides, barrels,etc, just get out the polishing equipment and smooth out all the tool marks on the bolt face, extracter, ejector, FIRING PIN FACE, and so on. Its for performance enhancement:) As for the polygonal barrels on the glock not leaving sufficient balistics markings, I heard that that was a reason that a police agency was not allowed to equip its officers with glocks, since it made police shooting investigations almost impossible to match the bullet to an individual officer's gun.
Link Posted: 9/12/2001 8:10:51 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/12/2001 8:12:51 PM EDT by Sparky315]
The Miami PD has Glock make all of their issue .40's with a special notch at the crown, that allows them to differentiate rounds fired by their officers from rounds fired by badguys' Glocks. They were having trouble distinguishing them in ballistics examinations. As far as polishing out the toolmarks in a Glock slide face, I seriously doubt that would work. When Glock gives its slides and barrels the tenifer treatment, it makes those parts as hard as an industrial diamond. Gunsmiths have to use special bits to cut things like forward slide serrations in a Glock slide. I doubt you could simply polish out distinguishing toolmarks. You could purchase a new slide from a place like Caspian if you were that worried about it. Glock does not send fired cases from each gun to the BATF, nor do they send them the fired projectiles. They merely send two cases with every gun so that dealers in the states that require them can comply with state law. Glock also does not keep a case from every gun on file. It's enough of a pain in the arse for them to include two casings with each pistol, and they only do that so that they can keep selling guns in the U.S. They're not about to voluntarily make more work for themselves by collecting bullets and mailing things to BATF. Throw the casings away and don't worry about it.
Link Posted: 9/13/2001 5:01:50 AM EDT
Sparky315- I again refer you to GLOCK's own publication which states they do provide BATF with the casing information.
Link Posted: 9/13/2001 5:02:59 AM EDT
I guess I'll have to go home tonight and find it so I can post a direct quote w/ page number, etc..
Link Posted: 9/13/2001 9:09:39 AM EDT
Please do!
Link Posted: 9/13/2001 7:38:05 PM EDT
I'd be interested to see that document. Please do post it if you can find it.
Link Posted: 9/13/2001 7:46:54 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Frances: Also, as far as I know, nothing prevents you from buying your new gun and immediately changing the firing pin, extractor and barrel. (Note that you still have the same bolt face marks unless you change that to.)
View Quote
After changing out all three parts, the whole program is defeated. A receipt showing that your barrel was shot and had to be replaced and your bolt and extractor had to be replaced for various other reasons now creates reasonable doubt. If you ever do a murder, just change out these parts after the fact and your gun will never be able to be forensically connected to the crime.
Link Posted: 9/13/2001 8:05:47 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/13/2001 8:09:28 PM EDT by thebeekeeper1]
Link Posted: 9/14/2001 5:21:40 AM EDT
GLOCK Autopistols 2000, Volume 6, No 1, by Harris Publications, Inc. Page 6. GLOCK Update, annual message from the president (signed by Gaston Glock). Paragraph 3 reads, in pertinent part: Late in 1999 GLOCK became a test site for BATF's IBIS program. IBIS is the acronym for Integrated Ballistic Identification System. The purpose of IBIS is to come up with a library of case head characteristics that are tied to a certain pistol and serial number; not unlike a fingerprint. In this manner we hope to help law enforcement have a leg up on the tracing process and thereby increase the likelihood of a criminal being apprehended.
Link Posted: 9/15/2001 7:54:09 AM EDT
No comment?
Link Posted: 9/15/2001 6:57:24 PM EDT
And I still want to know if anyone has any more info on the Glock's polygonal barrel and how that effects ballistics comparisons. Don't some HK's (the P's?) have polygonal rifled barrels as well?
Link Posted: 9/21/2001 6:33:12 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/21/2001 6:33:57 AM EDT by GLOCKshooter]
[url]http://glocktalk.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=10496&highlight=ibis[/url]
Link Posted: 6/18/2002 4:23:24 AM EDT
I linked to this thread to answer a related question. To find it I did a 9 month search, and it was the last (oldest) post. Does anyone know if it goes more than 9 months back, if you can pull it up with a link, or is it gone forever? (I know I wouldn't be able to pull it up with a search). Thanks
Link Posted: 6/18/2002 4:37:10 AM EDT
The real funny thing about IBIS is that it was invented in Canada; Montreal I believe. It is not used ANYWHERE in Canada. It seems that there are not enough gun crimes to warrant the cost of such a system.......Meanwhile we have spent some 1 BILLION dollars on our new registration system!! Only in Canada...
Link Posted: 6/18/2002 5:02:15 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Corey: And I still want to know if anyone has any more info on the Glock's polygonal barrel and how that effects ballistics comparisons. Don't some HK's (the P's?) have polygonal rifled barrels as well?
View Quote
That is an interesting question... I am confused on why they cannot distinguish the riflings caused by markings on a polygonal barrel.
Link Posted: 6/18/2002 5:35:03 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/18/2002 5:35:29 AM EDT by drfcolt]
Originally Posted By 89Saleen: I bought a new G19 Monday. The salesman was showing me everything that came with my new pistol. A small envelope with 2 spent shell casings from my Glock were in it. It had written on it the model no., serial no., who took the sample, date, etc. He said that some states require that little envelope to be shipped to the state for their records. I was like WTF. I always thought that balistics were taken from the bullet not the casing. It makes me wonder if the bullet was sent to the BATF or if Glock is keeping them for their records. Has Glock become another S&W??????
View Quote
My new HK Tactical also had an dated evelope with 2 spent casings in it.
Link Posted: 6/18/2002 5:54:38 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/18/2002 5:56:46 AM EDT by OLY-M4gery]
if you look at "conventional" rifling, it has grooves and lands. That have sharply cut edges. Those edges "scratch" and indent bullets that are fired through that barrel. Each barrel is subtley different, and cause multiple marks to the bullet. Some distinct some not so distinct. With the USP and Glock rifling there are no "edges". The rifling is rounded off low profile lines of metal. The "rifling" is basically smooth, with radiused starting points, raised centers and radiused ending points. There are no sharp areas to "scratch" a bullet fired through the barrel. Supposedly this type of rifling gives a better gas seal, with lower friction, resulting in higher velocity. Individual guns with Glock style rifling may be more difficult to match up to bullets fired through them. But the are still able to match the type of gun to the bullet.
Link Posted: 6/18/2002 10:57:52 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Corey: And I still want to know if anyone has any more info on the Glock's polygonal barrel and how that effects ballistics comparisons. Don't some HK's (the P's?) have polygonal rifled barrels as well?
View Quote
My USP has a polygonal barrel. I can show you the slug that bounced back at me a few weeks ago if you'd like to take a look at it. There isn't a lot of wear on any of the flats. I can imagine it would be very difficult to match a bullet to the barrel unless the barrel had a messed up crown or something. I do know that HK has a different number of flats in their barrels than Glock. I think Glock uses 8, HK uses 6, but don't quote me on that. Here is a page from firearmsid.com. [url]http://www.firearmsid.com/A_bulletIDrifling.htm[/url]
Link Posted: 6/18/2002 11:19:34 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Muad_Dib: I do know that HK has a different number of flats in their barrels than Glock. I think Glock uses 8, HK uses 6, but don't quote me on that. Here is a page from firearmsid.com. [url]http://www.firearmsid.com/A_bulletIDrifling.htm[/url]
View Quote
I learned that exact thing from watching CSI last week. (Not that I rely on them as an accurate source of info. I have caught several mistakes in assorted shows.)
Link Posted: 6/18/2002 11:38:38 AM EDT
Originally Posted By GLOCKshooter: GLOCK Autopistols 2000, Volume 6, No 1, by Harris Publications, Inc. Page 6. GLOCK Update, annual message from the president (signed by Gaston Glock). Paragraph 3 reads, in pertinent part: Late in 1999 GLOCK became a test site for BATF's IBIS program. IBIS is the acronym for Integrated Ballistic Identification System. The purpose of IBIS is to come up with a library of case head characteristics that are tied to a certain pistol and serial number; not unlike a fingerprint. In this manner we hope to help law enforcement have a leg up on the tracing process and thereby increase the likelihood of a criminal being apprehended.
View Quote
Does being an IBIS "test site" mean that they are in fact sending cases from every gun they produce to the BATF? I'd like to see proof that that is in fact what is happening. BTW, is Harris Pub. a Glock company?
Link Posted: 6/18/2002 11:40:10 AM EDT
Originally Posted By ChuckT:
Originally Posted By Muad_Dib: I do know that HK has a different number of flats in their barrels than Glock. I think Glock uses 8, HK uses 6, but don't quote me on that. Here is a page from firearmsid.com. [url]http://www.firearmsid.com/A_bulletIDrifling.htm[/url]
View Quote
I learned that exact thing from watching CSI last week. (Not that I rely on them as an accurate source of info. I have caught several mistakes in assorted shows.)
View Quote
I remember that episode (saw it a while back)...
Link Posted: 6/18/2002 11:54:09 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/18/2002 11:54:42 AM EDT by Muad_Dib]
Originally Posted By ChuckT: I learned that exact thing from watching CSI last week. (Not that I rely on them as an accurate source of info. I have caught several mistakes in assorted shows.)
View Quote
Yeah, I saw that one as well. I laughed out loud when the "expert" said that the USP is an extremely rare and high end pistol. He then said there were only 12 in the entire state of Nevada or something to that effect. High end, maybe. Rare? Nope. There are probably more than 12 just in Vegas.
Link Posted: 6/18/2002 12:49:48 PM EDT
Originally Posted By GLOCKshooter: I linked to this thread to answer a related question. To find it I did a 9 month search, and it was the last (oldest) post. Does anyone know if it goes more than 9 months back, if you can pull it up with a link, or is it gone forever? (I know I wouldn't be able to pull it up with a search). Thanks
View Quote
You can do searches for posts that are more than 9 months old. It just takes a little work. Here is how to do it. Search for the post with 9 months as the range. After the results page loads, go to the second page of the search and the url will change to a long http link. Now go to the address bar and look for the date range in the url. For example the following url has [b]274[/b] whick equals 9 months http://www.ar15.com/forums/search.html?keywords=test&page=2&forum=all&dateRange=[b]274[/b]&searchType=exact&searchField=subject,%20topicAuthor. Change that number to something bigger, like 365 to do a 1 year search. Like I said, not the easiest thing to do, but it has helped me find some old posts.
Link Posted: 6/18/2002 4:38:39 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Jack_Of_Some_Trades:
Originally Posted By GLOCKshooter: I linked to this thread to answer a related question. To find it I did a 9 month search, and it was the last (oldest) post. Does anyone know if it goes more than 9 months back, if you can pull it up with a link, or is it gone forever? (I know I wouldn't be able to pull it up with a search). Thanks
View Quote
You can do searches for posts that are more than 9 months old. It just takes a little work. Here is how to do it. Search for the post with 9 months as the range. After the results page loads, go to the second page of the search and the url will change to a long http link. Now go to the address bar and look for the date range in the url. For example the following url has [b]274[/b] whick equals 9 months http://www.ar15.com/forums/search.html?keywords=test&page=2&forum=all&dateRange=[b]274[/b]&searchType=exact&searchField=subject,%20topicAuthor. Change that number to something bigger, like 365 to do a 1 year search. Like I said, not the easiest thing to do, but it has helped me find some old posts.
View Quote
Excellent! So 1)the posts are there, you just have to get to them (so I assume a direct link to a 12 month old thread will work), and 2)THANKS for the extended search tip.
Link Posted: 6/18/2002 4:49:20 PM EDT
Originally Posted By GLOCKshooter: The whole point is that they want to be able to pick up casings from a homicide scene and find out who the last legitimate purchaser was.
View Quote
That be kind of hard to do without a gun registration database wouldn't it?
Top Top