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Posted: 9/11/2001 2:11:25 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/11/2001 2:48:04 PM EDT by jetflyer]
I propose that we return to the golden age of air travel...when people dressed up to fly, and the flight crew could carry a concealed weapon. It is probable that today's news would have been different if the pilots had a chance to end the situation early. Ironically, yesterday I flew our B-737 into New York (La Guardia) Airport. A low cloud layer obscured all of Manhattan except for the upper 30 floors of the WTC. We both commented on how majestic the towers looked as they poked above the clouds(and how fortunate those people are to have an office with a view above the clouds). [b]Godspeed to those people.[/b] Robert US Airways B-737 Pilot
Link Posted: 9/11/2001 2:12:39 PM EDT
Robert, In your opinion, were the airline pilots flying the planes into the towers, or did the terrorists do the flying? Your gut feel.
Link Posted: 9/11/2001 2:17:04 PM EDT
Originally Posted By fight4yourrights: Robert, In your opinion, were the airline pilots flying the planes into the towers, or did the terrorists do the flying? Your gut feel.
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Ditto.
Link Posted: 9/11/2001 2:27:24 PM EDT
It is our nature to save lives. In almost every [i]controllable[/i] crash the pilot attempts to steer away from additional fatalities, at his own expense. It is impossible for me to think that all 4 flight crews deviated from this natural instinct. Simply put...I think the terrorists flew the final segment of the flight.
Link Posted: 9/11/2001 3:57:53 PM EDT
btt
Link Posted: 9/11/2001 4:00:56 PM EDT
Link Posted: 9/11/2001 4:36:14 PM EDT
Jetflyer, I agree with you on all counts.
Link Posted: 9/11/2001 4:48:54 PM EDT
Link Posted: 9/11/2001 4:52:58 PM EDT
An obviously UNCONFIRMED rumor in the UAL maintenance hangers at SFO is that a US fighter toasted the a/c in Pennsylvania to prevent its continued flight to DC. I tend to side more toward Goatboy's view. hanko
Link Posted: 9/11/2001 4:59:58 PM EDT
Personally I am guessing it was splashed. The thing had to be in a near vertical dive when it hit from the looks at the very small smoking hole it made in the ground. Aviator [img]www.dredgeearthfirst.com/aviator.gif[/img]
Link Posted: 9/11/2001 5:00:35 PM EDT
Originally Posted By GoatBoy: I am also willing to say with 100% certainty that the Terrorists crashed the planes into the buildings. I also think the PA crash will turn out as a cockpit fight where the pilot caused the crash to end the threat.
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[url]http://worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=24427[/url] There is a 911 call made from the PA flight from a man in the bathroom by cell phone. In the background there is an explosion. FBI has siezed the 911 tape. Additionally the pilot of the plane had changed his tranponder to indicate DC as his destination. (change of location was pointed out on Fox or CNN, not sure of which though) The PA plane was the last to go down. Being shot down is not really that far fetched. Either way the lives lost on that flight no doubt saved hundreds more! Zaz
Link Posted: 9/11/2001 5:06:46 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/11/2001 5:07:29 PM EDT by oldtimer]
I can't understand why with all out technology we can't come up with a firearm that the pilots could use without penetrating the bulkhead of the plane. A scattergun or a pistol with buckshot or frangable amunition that would burst on impact can't be that hard to come up with. Also bulletproof doors on the cockpit are in order for all planes flying in our territory now.
Link Posted: 9/11/2001 5:23:59 PM EDT
Gov never told the truth about TWA 800, why would they tell the truth in PA?
Link Posted: 9/11/2001 5:28:21 PM EDT
Originally Posted By MickeyMouse: Gov never told the truth about TWA 800, why would they tell the truth in PA?
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First, your statement about 800 is total BULLSHIT. Second, now is not the time or place for this paranoid crap.
Link Posted: 9/11/2001 5:29:01 PM EDT
Originally Posted By oldtimer: I can't understand why with all out technology we can't come up with a firearm that the pilots could use without penetrating the bulkhead of the plane. A scattergun or a pistol with buckshot or frangable amunition that would burst on impact can't be that hard to come up with. Also bulletproof doors on the cockpit are in order for all planes flying in our territory now.
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funny, I thought that wass how GLASER ammo was developed. for airline security use on planes. I keep glasers loaded in my home gun so I don't overpenetrate the home walls. Kill the bad guy,not the kid in the next room.
Link Posted: 9/11/2001 5:34:10 PM EDT
I think the crew of the crashed plane in PA probably did the right thing. THERE IS NO GREATER LOVE THAN TO GIVE GIVE YOUR LIFE FOR SOMEONE ELSE. My heart goes out.
Link Posted: 9/11/2001 5:39:02 PM EDT
Originally Posted By oldtimer: I can't understand why with all out technology we can't come up with a firearm that the pilots could use without penetrating the bulkhead of the plane. A scattergun or a pistol with buckshot or frangable amunition that would burst on impact can't be that hard to come up with. Also bulletproof doors on the cockpit are in order for all planes flying in our territory now.
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The bulkheads are not the critical part, it's the outer skin, and only at higher altitudes where rapid depressurization is a threat.
Link Posted: 9/11/2001 5:39:24 PM EDT
I would also like to add that the pilots shouldn't be the only crew members armed. I've flown many times with many different airlines and I will say that most of the stewardess were certainly competent to carry.
Link Posted: 9/11/2001 5:41:34 PM EDT
Jetflyer, you are correct. We need to think of a way to start a national debate on how to bring this about.
Link Posted: 9/11/2001 5:42:26 PM EDT
Originally Posted By uncleSAM: I think the crew of the crashed plane in PA probably did the right thing. THERE IS NO GREATER LOVE THAN TO GIVE GIVE YOUR LIFE FOR SOMEONE ELSE. My heart goes out.
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Mine too... I nearly cried several times today thinking about the possibility of the crew putting into the dirt rather than... I am also considering the possibility of external intervention.
Link Posted: 9/11/2001 5:50:28 PM EDT
Robert, you don't happen to fly out of Philadelphia do you? Or take trips to Kali? I know a US air pilot that definatly agrees with you.
Link Posted: 9/11/2001 6:23:48 PM EDT
[b]"I propose that we return to the golden age of air travel...when people dressed up to fly, and the flight crew could carry a concealed weapon. It is probable that today's news would have been different if the pilots had a chance to end the situation early."[/b] Boy Jetflyer that would be grand. Flying today is nothing short of riding on a bus in South America except there are no chickens in crates. Anybody try to bring a set of ski's on your plane? My best guess is that each crew was restrained, incapacitated or killed since the FAA didn't report the distress code on the transponder which the PIC or first officer would have switch to. What's the rule now in the cockpit? I thought once the plane was cleared or from first turn of the engine, that door never opens. Personally, if I was in the left seat, I would have put my bird into the river or ocean if I had the slightest chance. I think this is what may have happen to the bird in PA. My God what a tragic day.
Link Posted: 9/12/2001 3:49:03 AM EDT
The cockpit door rule remains unchanged. It is locked from pushback to engine shutdown upon arrival. The doors are not vault like doors, as it would be impossible to egress the cockpit in an evacuation. They are strong enough to buy time. Time enough for the pilots to draw their weapons(I wish)!
Link Posted: 9/12/2001 10:36:50 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Aviator: Personally I am guessing it was splashed. The thing had to be in a near vertical dive when it hit from the looks at the very small smoking hole it made in the ground. Aviator [img]www.dredgeearthfirst.com/aviator.gif[/img]
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But that same evidence indicates the airfrme was intact at the time of impact. You can clearly make out the lines of impact from the wings extending from the central crater. I think a missle or even enough damage from a cannon to have brought the plane down would have parted a wing or engine. I belive that there was a fight on that plane either from the crew, the passengers or both and it ended with the plane out of control with God knows who at the controls.
Link Posted: 9/12/2001 10:48:11 AM EDT
I never fly without my Ruger on my hip. Oh, yeah, I am a General Aviation Commercial pilot. I love freedom. There are times when carrying my former announcer and a sherriff's deputy everone on the plane was armed. Never been hijacked. Miss Garvey (Clinton appointed FAA chief) can kiss my hairy, white ..... Planerench out.
Link Posted: 9/12/2001 11:00:30 AM EDT
The cockpit door is actually built with blowout panels for decompression. It seems like the weakest link theory. If the door were strong enough to survive decompression it would create the possibility of structure damage at that juncture that would split the plane. The idea as someone has stated is the the outer airframe is the strongest part. These hijackings will definitely change people's attitudes and they will no longer think of them as changes of destination but life and death. They will probably try to take your knife away from you before allowing boarding but maybe everyone will decide that having a knife to defend your life is a minimum for flying.
Link Posted: 9/12/2001 11:03:11 AM EDT
Announced by airline officials today: Airline flight crews no longer will be allowed to carry knives or leatherman tools of any type.
Link Posted: 9/12/2001 11:06:24 AM EDT
I agree with you 100% Jetflyer. Unfortunately, it looks as though they will disarm us even further making us even better victims. I am off the opinion, that an armed crew, would make things much safer for all involved as terrorist will ALWAYS find a way to get weapons on board an aircraft. I wish I could understand the sheeple response to give freedom for the temporary feel of security.
Link Posted: 9/12/2001 11:23:21 AM EDT
A bullet hole in the pressure bulkhead of an aircraft will not cause an explosive decompression. This is all movie shit. There are natural leaks that occur in almost every aircraft. Some happen before the pressure vessel is pressurized, some happen after it has been pressurized. Just a guess: The terrorists probably took pax and back end crew hostage with their weapons, then told the flight crew to open the door. They probably started killing pax and crew until the pilots opened the door or until they could break down the doors. It had to happen fast since the pilots can switch to guard or to a "hijack" frequency to get everyones attention.
Link Posted: 9/12/2001 9:01:10 PM EDT
Of the many commercial pilots I know, quite a few did carry sidearms with them up until the PSA flight incident in 1987. Before 1987, flight crews were allowed to bypass security...and they did...saved time. As stated, some pilots carried sidearms, though they were violating various laws. In 1987, a pilot from PSA was fired. He didn't turn in his ID right away (that was before all this electronic ID stuff), and he bought a ticket on a flight. Once on the flight at altitude, he went to the lavatory, then pulled out a .44 mag and shot the pilots then himself and the plane crashed killing everybody on board. In classic knee-jerk fashion, the FAA mandated that all flight crews must clear security just like passengers. So the days of armed commercial pilots went away. There is an obscure part that says that the owner of the aircraft can allow an armed person on board. Which is why a general aviation pilot could possibly carry. Also the airline, being the owner, could say OK to somebody to carry...but they don't except for federal LEO's and some rare cases local LEO's. This is all up in the air as we speak, and when it comes down, we're looking at a "nothing sharp" policy for flying as well as some other policies that wouldn't have prevented yesterday's attacks. But the rocket scientists at the FAA are just running what they know...clamp down on the people that aren't causing the problem. I think I'd prefer armed crew members. On a side note, I can just see the headlines the next time some "air rage" person goes berzerk on a plane and fights with a crew member or something...the other passengers will probably beat the guy to death. - Robbie
Link Posted: 9/12/2001 10:06:59 PM EDT
So now they are taking the (little) ability of the pilots and sheep to defend themselves. If I were a commercial pilot, I would just refuse to fly commercial flights, when the FAA decides to permit flights, and convince as many of my colleagues to do the same. Maybe the sales of CIA letter openers will go up Ed
Link Posted: 9/13/2001 8:50:29 AM EDT
While a flight is in progress, PICs on Canadian aircraft or most other aircraft in Canada are peace officers with an obligation to make arrests, use force vs hijackers and their ilk if life may be saved. But - pilots don't choose the time and place for a hijacking and are essentially SOL if one occurs and the good guys don't have a handy weapon. By extension, so are our passengers. I'd feel safer flying the friendly skies if some of the flight crew could put down a handful of idiots with improvised weapons. Just my $0.02 from a private pilot.
Link Posted: 9/13/2001 12:09:03 PM EDT
If we are ever given the green light to carry a concealed weapon...the terrorist will meet "Allah" shortly after looking down the pipe of my Kimber .45!
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