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Posted: 9/7/2001 8:35:47 AM EDT
It was last time I checked but that was a couple of years ago. sopmodm4
Link Posted: 9/7/2001 8:39:29 AM EDT
Who claims Bushmasters the best post ban AR to begin with?
Link Posted: 9/7/2001 8:45:17 AM EDT
Me,that's who.Everything else has gotten some kind of bad review somewhere but "Bushamster" produced rifles with milspec materials and finishes that never got a bad review from anyone where as everything else you could type into a search engine and about half of the posts would be some kind of problem or defect. sopmodm4
Link Posted: 9/7/2001 9:08:57 AM EDT
I've never seen a bad review on an ArmaLite from anyone reputable. You get complaints from some customers, but you get that on any product and ArmaLite is the only one I know that has forums on it's website for customers to ask questions, vent, etc.
Link Posted: 9/7/2001 9:14:53 AM EDT
Uh,I've seen two "no runnin" AR-10s for sure I owned one myself.One was an AR-10T and the other was my friend's AR-10 full size with Military style funiture.I don't know about their 5.56 guns but those .308s sucked for us. sopmodm4
Link Posted: 9/7/2001 9:20:52 AM EDT
Okay, so the entire point of your post is to crow about Bushmaster. Fine. You've answered your own question, which wasn't really a question. The AR10 problems were mag problems that have since been corrected and the problems weren't that many. Besides, when you asked about AR's, I thought you meant 5.56 rifles. You buy Bushy's and I'll buy ArmaLites and we'll all be happy. By the way, how does the Bushmaster .308 rifle run?
Link Posted: 9/7/2001 9:22:35 AM EDT
Of course Bushmaster is NOT, and they never were. Any AR that can't take orlites because the mag well is too tight doesn't qualify. I had a Bushy once and it pissed me off because of the mags. It went away & I got another Colt. Colt and Armalite still make the best quality 5.56mm's. Don't know anything about the AR10, but then again it's not a 5.56mm. Better go with the best & not the copies. My experiences and opinions of course. Talyn
Link Posted: 9/7/2001 9:35:29 AM EDT
Link Posted: 9/7/2001 9:36:58 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/7/2001 9:39:57 AM EDT by sopmodm4]
Originally Posted By LARRYG: Okay, so the entire point of your post is to crow about Bushmaster. Fine. You've answered your own question, which wasn't really a question. The AR10 problems were mag problems that have since been corrected and the problems weren't that many. Besides, when you asked about AR's, I thought you meant 5.56 rifles. You buy Bushy's and I'll buy ArmaLites and we'll all be happy. By the way, how does the Bushmaster .308 rifle run?
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You don't get me I don't even own an AR-anything anymore but I told my wife that she could pick out any type of rifle she wanted and after shooting my friend's Colt she decided that she wanted one.I have read all kinds of posts before posting about this and there are so many new brands of AR out there that I was asking a legitimate question which you decided to be a punk about and not give me an answer but a fucking sales pitch for a company that sold me a "BOAT ANCHOR" a couple of years ago so I didn't take you seriously.So let me phrase this in a way you can handle. Is an RRA any good? Are the latest PB Colts any good? Is a Knight's Manufacturing any good? Is an Armalite/Eagle any good? Are the new PWA recievers used by Wilson any good? In otherwords how does the best 1998 Bushmaster stack up to all of this new stuff? Geez,could you be any more sensitive sopmodm4
Link Posted: 9/7/2001 9:48:54 AM EDT
That's what I said, Colt is the best IMHO. If I "had" to go with a copy I'd only look at Armalite, since it's the second best in quality. I don't want to carry a rat file with me to open up the mag well for a BUSHY just in case I have to use Orlite mags. Anything that doesn't come from the factory that doesn't allow all common mags to be used is abit substandard. Talyn
Link Posted: 9/7/2001 9:50:51 AM EDT
BTW, while I don't care for the black finish on the newer Colts the one I got a lady friend worked just fine at the range a couple weeks ago. She loves it. My experiences of course. Talyn
Link Posted: 9/7/2001 9:59:05 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Talyn: That's what I said, Colt is the best IMHO. If I "had" to go with a copy I'd only look at Armalite, since it's the second best in quality. I don't want to carry a rat file with me to open up the mag well for a BUSHY just in case I have to use Orlite mags. Anything that doesn't come from the factory that doesn't allow all common mags to be used is abit substandard. Talyn
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How do you like those Orlite mags?Have you put a bunch of rounds through them?I like the way they look but I never bought any because they didn't fit my Bushmaster very well.Also do you know if those will fit double in the pouches of an Eagle Vest? thanks sopmodm4
Link Posted: 9/7/2001 10:02:55 AM EDT
Tayln: just buz the little bar on Orlites w/ your dremel tool and they'll fit just fine in anything. Sopmodm4: Don't know about their lowers but my RRA DCM upper is a keeper and fine quality. Mike
Link Posted: 9/7/2001 10:07:37 AM EDT
Actually I haven't gone with them since my bad BUSHY experience. Haveing something around that won't work in every AR out there isn't desireable. I gave them away, even though they would work in my Colts. I hear the Israeli's have switched back to GI mags. My mags in use are half USGI and the other Thermolds. I really like both and recommend them depending on your needs and budget. I imagine that they would fit in a vest OK. I know all my Thermolds do in any of my LBV/E setups and pouches I have. Orlites are cheap and may be fine. If I ever got anymore I'd use them as range mags. My opinions of course. Regards, Talyn
Link Posted: 9/7/2001 10:21:41 AM EDT
Well, Here is my experience for anyone interested. I bought an Armalite AR10A4 in mid '99. Recently, my gas carrier key developed a burr, or a crack, if you will. I contacted Armalite by email and was told to send in the bolt. In less than two weeks {including UPS ground shipping time} the bolt was back. Repaired, tested, AND with all the Tech Bulletins work done. The rifle has had no failures to function - even with the gas carrier key prob.
Link Posted: 9/7/2001 10:25:27 AM EDT
I used to be one of those "If it isn't a Colt it isn't quality" guys until recently. I own several pre-ban AR's and M16's, all of which are Colt. I've handled a few post ban Colt's and I have to admit, their quality control appears to be slipping. I do NOT like the new black finish of the Colt's. I've found that it gets damaged far easier than the old mil-park finish of the originals. My M16A2 has this new black finish unfortunately and I hate it. I've been looking at the Bushy rifles for sometime now, comparing them side-by-side to my Colt's. I've found that the Bushy displays a far better fit and finish than my best Colt. A buddy of mine recently bought a post ban Bushy at a gunshow. We took it out to the range, and right out of the box (note: bone dry and new) the thing worked like a champ. He pulled it from the box and fired 500 rounds without lubing it or cleaning it. I was in shock. My M16A2 was purchased new. When I took it out of the box to test fire it, it was bone dry too. It wouldn't work until I took it completely apart and lubed it. Even then I needed to run a couple hundred rounds through it until it broke in. Now the thing never fails me, it runs like a champ. But I've never seen a new AR/M16 fire right out of the box like that before. I have to give Bushmaster credit, they make a GREAT rifle. The fit, finish and quality are superior to any Colt I've ever seen... and I love Colt. My Colt has machine marks and imperfections all over it. My buddy's new Bushy has none of these and is very nicely finished. Bushmaster might not be the best, but damn... if someone makes one nicer it would have to be freaking perfect.
Link Posted: 9/7/2001 10:58:59 AM EDT
Originally Posted By sopmodm4: Me,that's who.Everything else has gotten some kind of bad review somewhere but "Bushamster" produced rifles with milspec materials and finishes that never got a bad review from anyone where as everything else you could type into a search engine and about half of the posts would be some kind of problem or defect. sopmodm4
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Huh? Just wander over to the Bushmaster forum and you'll find plenty of complaints. I'm not taking a stand on who's rifle is best, but to say no one ever gave a bad Bushmaster review is naive.
Link Posted: 9/7/2001 11:31:43 AM EDT
The best AR-15 is the one that works great.For example,my RRA/DPMS has a perfect finish,and NEVER has had a malfunction,even during the "break-in" period.Meanwhile,this guy with a brand-new Bushmaster next to me was having trouble.Something I never had.I've also had some problems with a Class3 Bushy a while back. You can keep your Bushy as far as I'm concerned,I'll keep my fine RRA/DPMS. Not that I have anything against BushMaster.
Link Posted: 9/7/2001 11:42:29 AM EDT
Originally Posted By imashooter2: Just wander over to the Bushmaster forum and you'll find plenty of complaints.
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What's the URL to the Bushmaster forum? I went to their website and can't find any forum listing. Thanks!
Link Posted: 9/7/2001 11:52:57 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/7/2001 11:55:49 AM EDT by GodBlessTexas]
Originally Posted By sopmodm4: Is an RRA any good?
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People who got LEGP's from RRA all seem to be pretty happy. It may be too soon to tell though, but there are some that have put more than 1000 rounds through theirs with no problem from what I've read. People also rave about the fit and finish.
Are the latest PB Colts any good?
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Some people swear by them, but I wouldn't buy one from a Colt dealer for political reasons. Technically, they're top notch, but I don't support any company that lists their AR's under "Law Enforcement" on their webpage and has said they don't make weapons for citizens anymore. Thank you HUD! Oops! There goes that government contract! People will also hit you with "If it's not a colt, it's just a copy," but that should be "just a copy of a copy" since Colt just built the things. The Armalite divison of Fairchild designed them and sold the design to Colt. Colt can be credited with making some improvements on the designs over time, I suppose.
Is an Armalite/Eagle any good?
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I hear good things about Armalite, especially with their lifetime warranty. Eagle owns the Armalite name, but I'm not really sure of any differences in rifle quality other than the absence of the lifetime warranty on the Eagle guns.
In otherwords how does the best 1998 Bushmaster stack up to all of this new stuff?
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Well, for the price and the lack of politics, I'd go with a Bushmaster. I've handled a few and all have been very nice guns that worked reliably. People will tell you about resale value and all that, and those are certainly things to consider I suppose. If you've got the cash, a Les Baer .223 might not be a bad investment. Those guns supposedly perform very well, but are expensive. God Bless Texas [edited to add the colt improvements part]
Link Posted: 9/7/2001 11:53:07 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Nomad-FA2: The best AR-15 is the one that works great.For example,my RRA/DPMS has a perfect finish,and NEVER has had a malfunction,even during the "break-in" period.Meanwhile,this guy with a brand-new Bushmaster next to me was having trouble.Something I never had.I've also had some problems with a Class3 Bushy a while back. You can keep your Bushy as far as I'm concerned,I'll keep my fine RRA/DPMS. Not that I have anything against BushMaster.
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That's funny. I guess it's the luck of the draw. I've handled lots of Bushy's lately since I've taken an interest in them. I check them all out at the gunshows and I've only fired one, the one by buddy bought a couple weeks ago. I've noticed that the Bushy's are consistently finished. I've not seen one with a noticeable flaw, but that's not to say they will all work right. Obviously I can't fire them all. :) If you do the same thing but focus on Colt, you'll find noticeable inconsistencies in fit and finish. I've not looked too closely at DPMS, PWA or any of the other makers really. I did own a DPMS match rifle a couple years ago and hated it. I sold it after a few months. I wasn't impressed with the overall quality or its lacking accuracy for such an expensive rifle (with a cool set trigger).
Link Posted: 9/7/2001 11:53:54 AM EDT
Originally Posted By wgunn: What's the URL to the Bushmaster forum? I went to their website and can't find any forum listing.
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Check the Industry Forums here on ar15.com, not at Bushmaster.com. God Bless Texas
Link Posted: 9/7/2001 12:13:33 PM EDT
While I like Colt AR's I do not like Colt's decision to dump most of their product line, especially their revolvers. Past Gold Cups that I've owned were rattle traps compared to a recent Springfield Armory 1911. I really liked their revolvers. Now Colt basically only has the AR to fall back on. I am almost as disappointed in them as I am S&W. I think resale on Colt's and Armalite's (ARs)are higher. My opinions of course. Regards, Talyn
Link Posted: 9/7/2001 12:16:30 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Talyn: That's what I said, Colt is the best IMHO. If I "had" to go with a copy I'd only look at Armalite, since it's the second best in quality. I don't want to carry a rat file with me to open up the mag well for a BUSHY just in case I have to use Orlite mags. Anything that doesn't come from the factory that doesn't allow all common mags to be used is abit substandard. Talyn
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My bushy has no problems with any mags....my old man's Armalite won't take USGI 20 rounders (alloy followers) for squat! Go figure!?!
Link Posted: 9/7/2001 12:29:49 PM EDT
Good question.
Link Posted: 9/7/2001 12:37:01 PM EDT
I have about 2500 rounds through my Bushmaster, and its failed me only once,...during break in....also, the problem with the Orlite mags is with the older Orlites, (Im sure you can find more details over at the magazine forum in the FAQ section) I bought a new Orlite to try out, and it works fine. I have read more than once that Bushmasters are the closest to Mil-Spec being built today, and read rave reviews of their customer service But why get into an argument over who's gun is better on a board like this? Everyone is going to like the one that they happen to own......I would get an up close look at the different rifles you are considering, and buy the one you like.....
Link Posted: 9/7/2001 12:48:56 PM EDT
Link Posted: 9/7/2001 1:07:31 PM EDT
Oh boy, I see the colt shills are at it again... I have had several different AR's over the years, including the ones discussed here. I now only own Bushmasters. Mine have never let me down and quality and customer service are the best. I had a colt and had many problems with it. The armalite was way too picky about ammo and mags. The Bushy shoots whatever I run through it. I have to say though, a friend has a armalite and has had great kuck with it, so maybe I just got a lemon. I will not buy a colt due to problems with the weapon, BUT more important is the politics of colt....screw em' !!!! BTW, Talyn...COLTS ARE COPIES TOO !!!!! SPECTRE out... [img]www.stopstart.fsnet.co.uk/smilie/shootout.gif[/img]
Link Posted: 9/7/2001 2:12:55 PM EDT
None of my Colt's have ever given me any problems. I guess whatever works for anyone is fine. We all have our preferences. Colt's been making them far longer than anyone else out there. No more shilly than anyone else. My opinions of course. Talyn
Link Posted: 9/7/2001 6:54:10 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/7/2001 6:57:45 PM EDT by LARRYG]
Originally Posted By sopmodm4:
Originally Posted By LARRYG: Okay, so the entire point of your post is to crow about Bushmaster. Fine. You've answered your own question, which wasn't really a question. The AR10 problems were mag problems that have since been corrected and the problems weren't that many. Besides, when you asked about AR's, I thought you meant 5.56 rifles. You buy Bushy's and I'll buy ArmaLites and we'll all be happy. By the way, how does the Bushmaster .308 rifle run?
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You don't get me I don't even own an AR-anything anymore but I told my wife that she could pick out any type of rifle she wanted and after shooting my friend's Colt she decided that she wanted one.I have read all kinds of posts before posting about this and there are so many new brands of AR out there that I was asking a legitimate question which you decided to be a punk about and not give me an answer but a fucking sales pitch for a company that sold me a "BOAT ANCHOR" a couple of years ago so I didn't take you seriously.So let me phrase this in a way you can handle.
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Let me put this in a way YOU can handle, PUNK! Your original question said nothing about your wife wanting one. You did not ask if brand X was good, or if brand Y was good. You asked if Bushmaster still made the best, not mentioning your feelings about ArmaLite. It is obvious NOW that you don't like ArmaLite. I gave you my answer to YOUR question. When my answer did not match your preconvieved answer, you go off about how I don't get you, calling me a punk and bitching about my FUCKING 'sales pitch'. If you had mentioned that you hate ArmaLite at the beginning, I would not have said a word. You were just looking for an argument. Your mind is made up already, you just wanted to stir things up. By the way, how does the FUCKING .308 Bushmaster run? You chose to slam ArmaLite's .308 rifle without mentioning the Bushmaster .308. Oh, that's right. Bushmaster doesn't make a FUCKING .308! Perhaps if they did, it might have had some of the same problems, but let's compare a company's .308 to another company's 5.56 without comparing the first company's 5.56. Sounds fair, especially when the .308 rifle's problems were mostly from ArmaLite was trying to do everyone a favor and make preban magazines not designed for the rifle work in it. Since there are no preban AR10's (except for a very few collector's items) and thus no ready made preban mags, maybe they should have just produced 10 round mags and not worried about everyone wanting more capacity. My original answer:
I've never seen a bad review on an ArmaLite from anyone reputable. You get complaints from some customers, but you get that on any product and ArmaLite is the only one I know that has forums on it's website for customers to ask questions, vent, etc.
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was most definitely not a sales pitch, but a sincere response. The second response you chose to focus on was in response to your assinine comments after my original post.
Link Posted: 9/7/2001 6:57:01 PM EDT
Hey...do you smell smoke?
Link Posted: 9/7/2001 7:56:15 PM EDT
Own a Colt and a Bushy. Currently trying to trade the PreBan Colt for a PreBan Bushy. So far, No takers. Tell you anything?
Link Posted: 9/7/2001 8:05:33 PM EDT
[BD][b]Cant we all just get along?[/b] sorry.......had to.
Link Posted: 9/7/2001 8:35:49 PM EDT
I have a preban colt and a postman bushmaster, have not had any real problems with either one. Keeping both, but future AR rifles for me will be either bushmaster, armalite or perhaps a les baer, I already have one of his great 1911's might as well try his rifle too.
Link Posted: 9/8/2001 7:37:37 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/8/2001 7:45:33 AM EDT by QCMGR]
Originally Posted By DK-Prof: Keep in mind that "Armalite" is one of the copies. Eagle Arms bought the Armalite name, and have nothing whatsoever to do with the original Armalite company.
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You are incorrect: ArmaLite owns the intellectual property and customer good will. They are every bit ArmaLite. It is like saying DaimlerChrysler can’t sell Vipers because Daimler purchased Chrysler.
Link Posted: 9/8/2001 8:40:04 AM EDT
Originally Posted By GodBlessTexas:
Originally Posted By sopmodm4: Is an RRA any good?
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I hear good things about Armalite, especially with their lifetime warranty. Eagle owns the Armalite name, but I'm not really sure of any differences in rifle quality other than the absence of the lifetime warranty on the Eagle guns. This is the story the way I understand it. (not presented as fact just what I heard) They have two big bins with uppers and lowers in them. They go and grab two,"Hey these fit!" that becomes an Eagle. (maybe tight maybe not so tight)They go back and hand pick two that fit GOOD AND TIGHT! That becomes an Armalite. Then they go and hand pick two that are too tight to fit and they hand fit them. That becomes an Armalite National Match. My M15A2 Carbine is everything I could ever want in a firearm, and it goes BOOM! everytime. There's my $.02!
Link Posted: 9/8/2001 8:56:29 AM EDT
Read this, it's from ARTweaker. This guy knows, he worked for a major AR15 manufacturer. [url]http://www.ar15.com/articles/article.html?article=15[/url] "The brand name or the origin of the parts does not matter one bit. All that matters is function. Rifles that do not work one hundred percent are a liability and only a moron would keep one that doesn’t. I would take a functioning OAI over a broken Colt any day of the week."
Link Posted: 9/8/2001 9:01:55 AM EDT
Naw, you are more incorrect. This latest version of Armalite is just like a Mazda truck. It's a Ford Ranger, nothing more nothing less. Just a different name. The current Armalites are nothing more than Eagle Arms. Nothing more nothing less. You think that this version of Armalite has any of the original tooling, dies and machinery from the Fairchild owned Armalite? They bought the name and that's it.
Originally Posted By QCMGR: You are incorrect: ArmaLite owns the intellectual property and customer good will. They are every bit ArmaLite. It is like saying DaimlerChrysler can’t sell Vipers because Daimler purchased Chrysler.
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Link Posted: 9/8/2001 9:42:07 AM EDT
Bullshit, That “tooling” would be over 40 years old. The AR-15 A2 is a different rifle than the AR-15. Put it this way: The name and the intellectual property are the company. If I own the name and design, It does not matter where or when I build it. Carl Shelby still sells Cobras. AutoCraft built the original coachwork and Ford provided the Motor. All he did was provide the name and the engineering to put it together. ArmaLite bought the intellectual property. (read engineering drawings and test data) If a Mazda is a Ford Ranger, a Ford Ranger is still a Ford.
Originally Posted By USNJoe: Naw, you are more incorrect. This latest version of Armalite is just like a Mazda truck. It's a Ford Ranger, nothing more nothing less. Just a different name. The current Armalites are nothing more than Eagle Arms. Nothing more nothing less. You think that this version of Armalite has any of the original tooling, dies and machinery from the Fairchild owned Armalite? They bought the name and that's it.
Originally Posted By QCMGR: You are incorrect: ArmaLite owns the intellectual property and customer good will. They are every bit ArmaLite. It is like saying DaimlerChrysler can’t sell Vipers because Daimler purchased Chrysler.
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Link Posted: 9/8/2001 10:14:15 AM EDT
Originally Posted By QCMGR:
Originally Posted By DK-Prof: Keep in mind that "Armalite" is one of the copies. Eagle Arms bought the Armalite name, and have nothing whatsoever to do with the original Armalite company.
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You are incorrect: ArmaLite owns the intellectual property and customer good will. They are every bit ArmaLite. It is like saying DaimlerChrysler can’t sell Vipers because Daimler purchased Chrysler.
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Chrysler didn't go out of business, then have their name ONLY be resurrected by Daimler 40 years later. They just added a few more letters to their name and kept on going. Armalite, on the other hand, sold all their rights to the AR15/M16 design to Colt. They were out of business for many years before Eagle Arms bought the NAME and maybe a few pieces of tooling. There is no comparison. I'm not bashing the current Armalite, they are among the best of the AR15 variants, but it is not the same company that Gene Stoner worked for.
Link Posted: 9/8/2001 10:25:45 AM EDT
See above:
Originally Posted By gus:
Originally Posted By QCMGR:
Originally Posted By DK-Prof: Keep in mind that "Armalite" is one of the copies. Eagle Arms bought the Armalite name, and have nothing whatsoever to do with the original Armalite company.
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You are incorrect: ArmaLite owns the intellectual property and customer good will. They are every bit ArmaLite. It is like saying DaimlerChrysler can’t sell Vipers because Daimler purchased Chrysler.
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Chrysler didn't go out of business, then have their name ONLY be resurrected by Daimler 40 years later. They just added a few more letters to their name and kept on going. Armalite, on the other hand, sold all their rights to the AR15/M16 design to Colt. They were out of business for many years before Eagle Arms bought the NAME and maybe a few pieces of tooling. There is no comparison. I'm not bashing the current Armalite, they are among the best of the AR15 variants, but it is not the same company that Gene Stoner worked for.
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Link Posted: 9/9/2001 7:10:36 AM EDT
Re: Armalites are only copies Guys, let it go. If it makes the guy who owns the rifle feel it is a superior piece in some way because it has "Armalite" instead of "Eagle" stamped on it, then that is his choice. Maybe you or I wouldn't pay extra for the name, but that is our choice. An economist would tell you that AR-type rifles are a differentiated product. That means that they are produced in an industry that has high barriers to entry (costs of tooling, for example), only a limited number of manufacturers, and all producing a product that is substantially identical. In such a market, the various producers must strive to differentiate their product in the consumer's mind from the rest, i.e. must create a customer preference based on some intangible. This is almost always accomplished through advertising and name recognition. Colt leaned very heavily on the name recognition for years, witness the number of guys here who still go all goofy over anything with the name Colt stamped on it. It was a wise choice on the part of the marketing department at Eagle Arms to buy the rights to the Armalite name. It conjures up visions of Gene Stoner and ALL THAT HISTORY in the mind of the potential AR buyer. Never mind that the the rifle itself is assembled from Eagle Arms parts that are selected a bit more carefully. Damn it, man! Don't you understand? It's an ARMALITE!!! The other manufacturers do similar things, too. Bushmaster trumpets the term "mil-spec" in all their copy, for example. The fact is all major AR producers make some that work, and some that don't. It is luck of the draw when you purchase any mass-production item. FWIW, I owned 2 Colts and 2 Bushmasters. All of them worked fine. I sold the Colts to guys with a pony fetish and put the money into other things. I still own and shoot the Bushmasters and they still continue to work just fine.
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