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Posted: 9/3/2001 6:43:24 PM EDT
[img]http://www.bushmaster.com/shopping/m17s/30-900-sa-small.jpg[/img] What do you think? Strength VS. weakness I can't decide if I like it or not
Link Posted: 9/3/2001 6:52:32 PM EDT
I have one and like it but,,, Pros: Cleaner than the AR Better balance due to recessed COG Uses AR mags Good price (about $600) 21" chrome lined barrel Composites Is a bushmaster Looks great with Bushnell Holosight on top Cons: Little/few upgrades available Trigger job incapable (I think) Plastic safety slide to block trigger linkage Extruded aluminum gets warm Like it or not (and I'm sure some of these guys won't) the M17S is a newer design than the AR and has some advantages over it. Armalite actually started work on it as a follow-up to the AR and then dropped it due to lack of interest from potential customers. Bushmaster picked it up later and developed this rifle. I wouldn't tell anyone to get it instead of a good AR but it has made a nice addition to my collection. Hope this hels. Ohyeah, I have put many different types of ammo through the thing and it has worked flawlessly. The Thermold clips work very well in it too and the plastic matches the composite stock underside well.
Link Posted: 9/3/2001 6:54:26 PM EDT
Link Posted: 9/3/2001 6:54:41 PM EDT
It is on my list of guns to get.
Link Posted: 9/3/2001 6:55:29 PM EDT
Link Posted: 9/3/2001 6:57:04 PM EDT
Being as I am a lefty, they can keep it. [beer]
Link Posted: 9/3/2001 7:00:32 PM EDT
And I forgot: GREAT close quarters gun due to balance and length (or actually shortness). You can hold it close and manipulate it quickly, very quickly. You won't believe how well it handles until you pick one up and swing it around. Did I say "swing"? I meant "pivot". It's just too well balanced to think of swinging. This is also your most realistic alternative to a SteyrAug. I know it's not the same but it is a hell of a lot similar to the handling and dimensions. Another negative: you pretty much have to add some sort of aiming device (Bushnell Holosight) but they put a nice sight rail on top to make it fairly painless.
Link Posted: 9/3/2001 7:01:16 PM EDT
I have one-- Pro's: Fairly accurate, very compact (even with a 21" bbl), a good gas mechanism, cheap, even as a pre-ban. Con's: Runs HOT!, trigger pull can only be marginally improved, carry handle mount is too high, Lefties can't use it, fixed sights SUCK--you must have optics on the gun. Some people have started to customize them. You can shave the carry handle off, and replace the cocking handle part with something more flush. Put a lower weaver rail on it. Cut additional cooling holes on the sides. You can cut a pre-ban's barrel back a little bit and still meet minimum length restrictions (and put a good flash hider on it--phantom or vortex). This runs a pretty good amount and cannot fix the trigger pull--the long trigger bar makes it hard to improve it, but you can smooth out the plastic channel it rides in, smooth a few of the parts, and grease up the channel, and it helps. I just switched mine over from a BSA red dot to a Reflex II with the triangle, and it works great. Bottom line--if you can get a post ban cheap, or a pre ban cheap, it makes a nice addition to a collection. I wouldn't pay over $800 for a pre ban (there are a few out there for that rate). I had an early one with the C-Clips holding the take down pins in, and I sent it in for the upgrades. It is stiff in the mag well now, but should smooth out later on (they replaced the entire lower with a new one). The next closest thing is a Steyr AUG, and that doesn't take AR mags like the M-17 does.
Link Posted: 9/3/2001 7:02:16 PM EDT
Hey raf, what's the fix? I hadn't really researched it lately but was mostly going on what one of my shooting buddies told me.
Link Posted: 9/3/2001 7:02:37 PM EDT
Originally Posted By HighlandMac: Being as I am a lefty, they can keep it. [beer]
View Quote
I imagine it would be uncomfortable for a lefty to fire. [:D] Does it use a diffrent gas system that the AR? I saw one at a gun shop and fooled with it. I like the fell and balance. The only thing that alarmed me was between the mag well and the grip had what looked like Elmers wood glue holding something together. Kind of strange. Is it supposed to look like that?
Link Posted: 9/3/2001 7:06:42 PM EDT
Link Posted: 9/3/2001 7:19:08 PM EDT
From small arms review: http://www.smallarmsreview.com/april.htm solved the problems of the AR-15 by changing the gas system to a rod and piston arrangement that vents excess gases into the atmosphere just aft of the front sight/gas block. The piston is fixed; expanding gases drive the rod back into the bolt carrier, which rides on two fixed rods surrounded by recoil springs. The bolt carrier does not touch the interior surface of the receiver. Operating the bolt carrier on these two "action rods" gives minimum surface area for dust buildup or fouling. The design is inherently more tolerant of dust that the AR-15 system. In fact, weapons using the AR-18 operating system do not actually need an ejection port cover, although most have them. Because of this improved design, rifles based on the AR-18 system require less maintenance than AR-15 type weapons. There were many shortcomings in the AR-18s that were manufactured in the 1970s because they were not fully developed. Although it uses the AR-18 operating system, the M17S is otherwise a completely different rifle. The M17S story begins 1982 as a response to an Australian military requirement for a new 5.56x45mm rifle. The initial rifle was developed by Armstech, a small company organized specifically for the purpose of designing and developing a new Australian military rifle. In the face of almost overwhelming odds, Armstech presented the Australian government with a rifle design, test weapons, and full technical data package in a matter of only a few months. There were four other Australian competitors for the new rifle, but the government selected two foreign designs for the final competition - the American M16A2 and Austrian Steyr Armee Universal Gewehr (AUG). The latter was eventually selected as Australia’s service rifle and the indigenous weapons were all but forgotten. blah blah blah, go read the rest for yourself. It really is a very advanced and great rifle though.
Link Posted: 9/3/2001 7:24:14 PM EDT
Thanks for the info!
Link Posted: 9/3/2001 7:34:34 PM EDT
Link Posted: 9/3/2001 8:13:44 PM EDT
[url]webarmory.ixworld.com/faqs/m17s_mods/m17s_mods.html[/url] Here is a page with trigger mods. I have a preban that had the receiver modified to the new one cause it would separate when fired. Lately my trigger bar has been popping out of the trigger, though it has been OK the past 500 rounds or so. I really like the design but mine has been to unreliable to really count on. Maybe if it is OK for the next couple thousand rounds I will start trusting it again. You have to add a sight to it. Right now I have a cheap chinese red dot on it and it seems to work OK. If it stays reliable I may put an OKO on it. We'll see. If you already have an AR, I see no reason not to get an M17s. It is an interesting design that you already have mags and ammo for and it is relatively cheap. Go for it.
Link Posted: 9/3/2001 8:26:29 PM EDT
Link Posted: 9/3/2001 8:31:59 PM EDT
Thanks raf. If it starts doing it again I'll do just that.
Link Posted: 9/3/2001 8:34:53 PM EDT
Link Posted: 9/4/2001 9:17:48 AM EDT
If you guys have not seen this thread in the BM forum, please read my experience with the M17s. [url]http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?id=33146[/url] BTW...I am expecting to hear back from Jarrod any day now, saying that the upgrades have been completed and the ATF paperwork is in order. They are charging me $100 to do the upgrades after all. No biggy. I'll just to have to pass that cost on to the next owner. As you have read, BM basically replaces both upper and lower receivers. Quote from BM: [i]The upgrade is $100.00 for this you basically get a brand new rifle, the only leftover parts would be the bolt carrier, barrel, and lower parts group.[/i] As soon as I get this thing back, I am putting it on the market. If any of you guys are interested in a Preban M17s, this would be the way to go. It will be fresh from the factory. I have no desire to shoot this thing again. I will list it for $800, and include a BSA red dot. I will actually have a little more than that in it. Drop me an email, if you are interested. Good luck with these things, Cope
Link Posted: 9/4/2001 9:54:42 AM EDT
Interesting info Cope, sounds like it mostly pertains to the prebans though. I'd gladly buy yours if I didn't already have one. One additionaly thing that I like about the design (and it is important in Cope's case) is the extruded aluminum housing that surrounds almost the entire rifle, but most importantly the bolt and assembly. Reviewers have mentioned potential problems with this type of action and the additional safety provided by this housing. One other note to relate to Cope's post on the other string, if you are out shooting with no wind then you can smell the fumes from the gun. This almost never happens to me cause there is almost always a breeze around here so I had forgotten about it. It's not gonna keep me from using it cause I really love this little rifle. Somebody has to be R&D, I guess it's us. Just kidding. Well, maybe...
Link Posted: 9/4/2001 9:59:27 AM EDT
Link Posted: 9/6/2001 4:16:18 PM EDT
The M17S is a love-hate gun. You either love it or hate it the first time you fire it. Despite my M17's shortcomings ( I had to send mine back to Bushmaster to fix a Failure-to-Load problem), I believe it is a great gun. Very accurate, short, customizable, and a great looking gun, it is a firearm you can enjoy. The forearm may get hot after a while, but in winter this is no drawback. The M17S is a great gun for those who love to tinker. I'm still looking for more ways to lighten the trigger pull, and have a few ideas. I'll let you know if any of them work out. Stim0r
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