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Posted: 9/1/2001 4:56:28 PM EDT
[#1]
Hard to smear a device with the reputation of the Carbon 15. I can't remember ever seeing a good word written about them. I can understand your frustration though.
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Posted: 9/1/2001 4:59:49 PM EDT
[#2]
Holy Crap!!!
I was considering one of those new P.O. uppers for one of my AR lowers to make an ultralight carbine. Not anymore! I tried many times to get my questions answered on the manufacturers forum to no avail. Good luck with your repair (maybe you'll get a refund). |
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Posted: 9/1/2001 5:11:05 PM EDT
[#3]
The bolt snapped in half - WOW!
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Posted: 9/1/2001 5:11:46 PM EDT
[#4]
should have bought a CAV-15....
[url]http://www.cavalryarms.com[/url] |
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Posted: 9/1/2001 5:11:48 PM EDT
[#5]
here's the busted bolt.
[img]www.dfcreative.com/postedD29.jpg[/img] do they make their own or do they get them from a vendor (bushie, dpms etc.)? Tough break! My sympathies! Zaz |
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Posted: 9/1/2001 5:26:23 PM EDT
[#6]
Post this over in the P.O. Forum. im sure they will apreciate it.
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Posted: 9/1/2001 5:28:11 PM EDT
[#7]
Damn Art, I was looking at one of those today and thinking "Gee they look cool." Thanks for saving me from myself. [;)]
That does really suck, however. But at least this wasn't another AD post [:)] I bought a DPMS shorty and a FAL today. Hopefully when I go to fire them tomorrow, I'll have better luck. |
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Posted: 9/1/2001 5:33:59 PM EDT
[#8]
.....Thanks for posting the pic...
I think the bolt is exclusive to the Carbon-15's. I had my Bushy with me, and tried to switch out the bolt. I put the Bushmaster bolt in the CAR-15 carrier. Seems the locking lugs are different...The bushy bolt wouldn't match up with the Carbon's barrel. Right now, as we speak, I've got this thing RIPPED APART. I'm going to see about replacing the Car-15 barrel extension with a "mil-spec" extension. This would enable me to use a standard bolt... I also picked up an ATF form 1 & fingerprint card, so I can build an "AOW" I'm thinking of putting a CAR stock and forward pistol grip on this thing.... So far, it looks like the barrel extension is the same as my Bushy...Maybe this will work. |
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Posted: 9/1/2001 5:37:31 PM EDT
[#9]
dragracerart, your anger here is completely justified. Make them take that POS back and return your hard earned cash! For a major component such as the bolt to break in two after two shots, there is a very serious problem with the quality of the Carbon 15 in general. I could only imagine what thier explanation is going to be on how this POS passed quality control, if they even have such a department. You were lucky this time, next time it could injure or kill you. Do yourself a big favor and send it back for a full refund if possible. Send it back even if you lose a few bucks, it is not worth it. Forget about the Carbon-15 dream. They are not a true AR pistol. It is rare that you read any thing good about them anyway. If you want lightwieght try a Cav 15 lower. Good luck.
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Posted: 9/1/2001 5:38:16 PM EDT
[#10]
Quoted: Damn Art, I was looking at one of those today and thinking "Gee they look cool." Thanks for saving me from myself. [;)] That does really suck, however. But at least this wasn't another AD post [:)] I bought a DPMS shorty and a FAL today. Hopefully when I go to fire them tomorrow, I'll have better luck. ...Did you make it up to A-town today ??? I got there late...Around 2:30-3:00PM...Didn't see much... Bought a set of triangular handguards, and a dummy grenade.(thought it looked cool) |
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Posted: 9/1/2001 5:41:46 PM EDT
[#11]
Quoted: I had my Bushy with me, and tried to switch out the bolt. I put the Bushmaster bolt in the CAR-15 carrier. Seems the locking lugs are different...The bushy bolt wouldn't match up with the Carbon's barrel. Uh-Oh I guess the CAR-15 bolt didn't either. |
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Posted: 9/1/2001 5:48:47 PM EDT
[#12]
They make their own bolts...
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Posted: 9/1/2001 5:54:46 PM EDT
[#13]
. . . and they suck!
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Posted: 9/1/2001 6:05:06 PM EDT
[#14]
How difficult is it to remove and replace the barrel extension(part with locking lugs)
The O.D. is the same as my Bushmaster... Looks like I could swap them, and use a standard mil-spec bolt, instead of replacing it with another P.O. part. Any suggestions ??? I'm DAMNED DETERMINED to make this friggin thing shoot !!! Thats why I'm looking to add the CAR stock & forward pistol grip... I'd like to see this thing work reliably... |
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Posted: 9/1/2001 6:11:11 PM EDT
[#15]
Quoted: Any suggestions ??? I'm DAMNED DETERMINED to make this friggin thing shoot !!! Thats why I'm looking to add the CAR stock & forward pistol grip... I'd like to see this thing work reliably... Uh-Oh Seek legal advice |
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Posted: 9/1/2001 6:23:56 PM EDT
[#16]
Thats... SAD
Man we need a section of this site devoted for consumer protection so we know this shit before we buy a POS like that. |
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Posted: 9/1/2001 6:25:21 PM EDT
[#17]
Thanks to all those with previous experience with Professional Ordnance Carbon 15s. I thought they looked pretty nice and (most importantly) light...thanks for the warnings...hopefully the company can get the issues improved and some good reviews of their products will be forthcoming, I wish them well as we all need good quality AR manufacturers.
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Posted: 9/1/2001 6:28:52 PM EDT
[#18]
Quoted: Quoted: Any suggestions ??? I'm DAMNED DETERMINED to make this friggin thing shoot !!! Thats why I'm looking to add the CAR stock & forward pistol grip... I'd like to see this thing work reliably... Uh-Oh Seek legal advice ...Already have the ATF Form 1 & fingerprint card in my possesion. Gotta get prints on the card & send 'em $200... No big deal... Since it started as a handgun, when modified, it's considered an "AOW"(Any other weapon) as opposed to an "SBR"(short barreled rifle) At least that's what I'm told by my dealer... Shaggy ? Where are you ??? I need legal advice... |
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Posted: 9/1/2001 6:38:06 PM EDT
[#19]
Art -
I made it up to Allentown today. See my post [url]http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?id=48542[/url] for that story. I don't know if your plan qulaifies as an AOW or an SBR, but the fee for an AOW is only $5. $200 for an SBR, I believe. |
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Posted: 9/1/2001 6:59:46 PM EDT
[#20]
It ought to be classified as
a Self Destructive Device (SDD) |
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Posted: 9/1/2001 7:11:58 PM EDT
[#21]
here is what I did to make mine work right...
[url]http://www.cavalryarms.com/POI.html[/url] I could do this as well as put a GI barrel extension on so you can use GI bolts... |
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Posted: 9/1/2001 7:12:08 PM EDT
[#22]
"I also picked up an ATF form 1 & fingerprint card, so I can build an "AOW"
I'm thinking of putting a CAR stock and forward pistol grip on this thing...." art, if i'm not mistaken, an a.o.w. cannot have a buttstock, as it is not intended that an a.o.w. NOT be fired from the shoulder. 2 pistol grips is fine, but no buttstock. at least this is what was determined to be form 1 legal on krinkov building. |
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Posted: 9/1/2001 7:16:13 PM EDT
[#23]
If the gun is/was new don't mess with it. Put it back together and bring it back. There is NOTHING you can do to it to make it better. I am afraid to tell you a horror story I heard about one of those pistols but here it goes....The guy bought it and it broke right away like yours he got it repaired. It broke again as soon as he got it back. He sent it in again and this time he traded it in to his gun dealer for a couple of cases of ammo! He lost about $400 on that POS. The nice thing about AR15.com is that most of us have no vested interest in any firearms manufactures, so we call them as we see them. POS
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Posted: 9/1/2001 7:24:35 PM EDT
[#24]
I too was loking at the new carbines, they got kinda a UMP look. But I decided against it after reading some reviews here of the entire carbon 15 line.
For a bolt to just snap in two shows this company has a complete lack of respect for their customers. They should know people stake their lives and safety on firearms. An interesting way of looking at this is: "They wish YOU dead." This is obviously not a fluke but a standard of design. When companies like P.O. and Special Weapons produce firearms that have an expectation to fail, it is not an accident. |
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Posted: 9/1/2001 8:37:33 PM EDT
[#25]
Quoted: ...Already have the ATF Form 1 & fingerprint card in my possesion. Gotta get prints on the card & send 'em $200... No big deal... Since it started as a handgun, when modified, it's considered an "AOW"(Any other weapon) as opposed to an "SBR"(short barreled rifle) At least that's what I'm told by my dealer... Shaggy ? Where are you ??? I need legal advice... Geez Art; and I thought I had bad luck with guns. I can hardly believe the bolt broke in half. I mean, if I didn't see it, I wouldn't believe it. What the hell did those morons at Professional Ordnance do - make the bolt out of recycled milk jugs, like the rest of the gun? You're lucky you weren't hurt. See what Professional Ordnance says about sending a new bolt - you might even want to send them the whole gun and make them fix it and give it a good once over to make sure it works and won't blow up on you. If they give you any crap, let me know. As for making an AOW out of one, your dealer is right; you have to start with either a pistol or a virgin receiver. But because an AOW, by definition, is neither a rifle or a pistol, the terms of the 1994 AWB don't apply to AOW's. Thus, you can use any virgin AR15 receiver (aluminum, steel, whatever...) and don't have to worry about the weight requirements a post ban pistol would have. |
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Posted: 9/1/2001 9:26:02 PM EDT
[#26]
I've read so many post like these, glade I've read them first! The first time I saw one I thought wow! what a neat looking new rifle.
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Posted: 9/1/2001 11:09:43 PM EDT
[#27]
Folks, the bolt breaking in half is nothing new. Has happened many, many times with the Carbon 15. And as far as sending it back for repairs goes, mine went back FIVE times and still malfunctioned. A whole bunch of people have had the exact same experience too. Then they told me they would do no more warranty work on it, because they didn't have a warranty card on file. This company and it's products suck. The Carbon 15 is a nightmare. |
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Posted: 9/2/2001 12:22:59 AM EDT
[#28]
I sent them an E-mail earlier tonight...
We'll wait and see what happens next... In the meantime, I'm going to look into changing out the barrel extension and bolt to standard "mil-spec" compatible parts... Seems to me, if Professional Ordnance would have just left the original Stoner design alone, and not tried to "reinvent the wheel", they would have a fine lightweight weapon to sell, and not so many PISSED OFF customers... |
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Posted: 9/2/2001 12:29:43 AM EDT
[#29]
My friend got one several months ago.
First 150-200 rounds the gun would jam every 5 or 6th shot without fail. As time went by it got worse and was jamming on every round. Sent the gun back to the factory and they returned it after 3 weeks. Less than 200 rounds later the charging handle broke in half (never seen that before). Factory sent him a new one within 2 weeks. After another 100-150 rounds the accuracy when from about 2" at 25 yards to 8"... then got worse and couldn't keep 50% of the shots on the paper. Sent the gun back to the factory and they returned it about 4 weeks later. Last week we fired another 80-100 rounds and the accuracy went from 2" in the beginning to 5-6" at 25 yards and we noticed some "play" between the barrel and the frame. The gun was sent back this week. Overall I have to say this thing is a POS. |
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Posted: 9/2/2001 6:44:14 AM EDT
[#30]
Quoted: Quoted: ...Already have the ATF Form 1 & fingerprint card in my possesion. Gotta get prints on the card & send 'em $200... No big deal... Since it started as a handgun, when modified, it's considered an "AOW"(Any other weapon) as opposed to an "SBR"(short barreled rifle) At least that's what I'm told by my dealer... Shaggy ? Where are you ??? I need legal advice... Geez Art; and I thought I had bad luck with guns. I can hardly believe the bolt broke in half. I mean, if I didn't see it, I wouldn't believe it. What the hell did those morons at Professional Ordnance do - make the bolt out of recycled milk jugs, like the rest of the gun? You're lucky you weren't hurt. See what Professional Ordnance says about sending a new bolt - you might even want to send them the whole gun and make them fix it and give it a good once over to make sure it works and won't blow up on you. If they give you any crap, let me know. As for making an AOW out of one, your dealer is right; you have to start with either a pistol or a virgin receiver. But because an AOW, by definition, is neither a rifle or a pistol, the terms of the 1994 AWB don't apply to AOW's. Thus, you can use any virgin AR15 receiver (aluminum, steel, whatever...) and don't have to worry about the weight requirements a post ban pistol would have. SO... If this is true, can I also build up a Pre-ban configured AR, with any length barrel & a tele-stock ? (Provided I start with a "new" stripped lower and pay the AOW tax) What's the tax on building the AOW anyway ??? I've heard $5.00 and also heard $200... My dealer says $200... |
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Posted: 9/2/2001 7:27:02 AM EDT
[#31]
Quoted: here is what I did to make mine work right... [url]http://www.cavalryarms.com/POI.html[/url] I could do this as well as put a GI barrel extension on so you can use GI bolts... How involved is the removal of the barrel extension ??? I'm an Industrial Maintenance Mechanic, and have done quite a bit of "fabricating"... Also, I've built several AR's... Never had a barrel extension off though... Is this much of a job ? How do you align or "clock" it properly? Is there a special wrench to grab ahold of the locking lugs to loosen it ? I've already stripped it down to the barrel...It looks like they used red loctite on the barrel extension...NICE [rolleyes] |
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Posted: 9/2/2001 8:21:08 AM EDT
[#32]
Quoted: SO... If this is true, can I also build up a Pre-ban configured AR, with any length barrel & a tele-stock ? (Provided I start with a "new" stripped lower and pay the AOW tax) What's the tax on building the AOW anyway ??? I've heard $5.00 and also heard $200... My dealer says $200... Unfortunately the AOW trick to get around the 1994 AWB doesn't work with a rifle. Once a receiver has a stock on it, its technically a rifle. And if that rifle has a short barrel on it, it becomes a short barreled rifle. The 1994 AWB prohibited "semi-automatic assault weapons", and defined them by three basic classes - rifles, pistols, and shotguns. Because an AR15 type AOW isn't a rifle (it doesn't have a stock and isn't designed to be fired from the shoulder) - and it isn't a pistol (according to the law, a pistol is designed to be fired with one hand. BATF has issued an opinion that an AR15 type pistol with a forward grip is an AOW by virtue of the fact that it is meant to be fired with two hands). And obviously an AR15 type pistol with a forward grip is not a shotgun. Therefore because it doesn't fit into any of the three classes of weapons that can make a "semiautomatic assault weapon" and AOW AR15 (without a stock) is exempt from the 1994 ban. A short barreled rifle, OTOH, is still a "semi-automatic rifle" and therefore can still be regulated under the 1994 ban. The AOW exception to the 194 ban is sort of like the machinegun exception. Machineguns are exempt because they are not "semi-automatic". An AOW is exempt because its technically neither a rifle, pistol, or shotgun. The making tax on a AOW is $200 - its the subsequent transfers that are only -$5 each. |
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Posted: 9/2/2001 9:05:44 AM EDT
[#33]
So the $200 will only enable me to install a forward grip ???
If I can't add the tele-stock also, it hardly seems worth the trouble... Also... I just clearenced the locking lugs on a spare GI bolt I had here... I slides right into the CAR-15 barrel extension... I re-assembled the gun and was able to cycle 30 rounds through it by hand with no stickyness or problems... The range is 2 minutes from my house...I'm headed there right now. I'll be back later to report my next set of problems...[rolleyes] P.S.- You have mail Shaggy [:)] |
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Posted: 9/2/2001 9:54:45 AM EDT
[#34]
ike I asked in the PO industry forum,
"What made you buy this AR version rather than one of the others?" So, any of you PO Carbon-15 owners, WHY? Meplat |
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Posted: 9/2/2001 11:04:42 AM EDT
[#35]
Quoted: So the $200 will only enable me to install a forward grip ??? If I can't add the tele-stock also, it hardly seems worth the trouble... ie handguards, and whatever the otehr ones are |
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Posted: 9/2/2001 12:03:15 PM EDT
[#36]
Well...
I just came back from the range... I've determined that this gun is a [red]FUCKING PIECE OF SHIT !!!!!!!!!![/red] Replacing the bolt with a new one will do NOTHING to correct the many other [red]problems...[/red] To replace the broken original (which lasted for 2 shots) I made a spare GI bolt work with the CAR-15 barrel extension, and it matches perfectly. Only [red]problem[/red] is, the mag well is so sloppy and loose, none of my USGI mags will work unless I push forward on the bottom of the mags, cocking them up in the front in the chamber. Otherwise, the rounds just stop dead at the bottom of the feed ramps...The ONLY mag that seemed to work was the Thermold that came with the gun...It was able to feed a WHOPPING 14 rounds before a jam... None of the USGI mags would feed more than 8 to 10 rounds before a jam...I did this through 6 entire 30 round mags... Some would not eject, some got stuck up in the charging handle, and some would double-feed... Another [red]problem[/red] is the bolt kept locking open with plenty of ammo still in the mag... Another [red]problem[/red], was the charging handle kept unlocking from the notch in the upper receiver, and kept flying rearwards... To make myself feel better, I shot the remaining 9 mags through my Bushmater...WITHOUT INCIDENT !!! Another 270 rounds without a single jam...(In addition to the few thousand previously fired through it trouble-free) If you're wondering why I'm so pissed, consider how much these guns sell for and notice all the [red]PROBLEMS[/red]? |
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Posted: 9/2/2001 3:19:23 PM EDT
[#37]
dragracerart... AR barrel extension is $20.00 and the labor is $80.00
As far as timming, you use a lathe to face it down until it times out and then re-head space the chamber...or you could get lucky and it is good the first try (yea right)... Another option is to chuckk up a USGI bolt in a spin fixture and carbide the corners off so it fits in a POI barrel extension. The smart ticket would be to use the 4th axis in the CNC. |
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Posted: 9/2/2001 3:24:11 PM EDT
[#38]
Art
Sorry to hear hear about the problems you are having. Everytime I see one in a gunshop I ask to see it. I think for maybe 2 seconds about buying one of the PO rifles. They are light and very handy little rifles. They look great. Then I remember everything I've read about the PO rifles and have them put it back on the rack. Your experience just adds to everything I've heard. |
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Posted: 9/2/2001 3:26:31 PM EDT
[#39]
Quoted: dragracerart... AR barrel extension is $20.00 and the labor is $80.00 As far as timming, you use a lathe to face it down until it times out and then re-head space the chamber...or you could get lucky and it is good the first try (yea right)... Another option is to chuckk up a USGI bolt in a spin fixture and carbide the corners off so it fits in a POI barrel extension. The smart ticket would be to use the 4th axis in the CNC. ....I already took care of the bolt problem. I did exactly like you suggested. I knocked the edges off the lugs on a GI bolt, and it worked fine...Goes in and out of the POI extension smooth as butter. Just too many other problems now... See my previous post.... |
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Posted: 9/2/2001 3:30:43 PM EDT
[#40]
You can add a AR-stock and a full size bolt carrier. this will allow you to use a standard (or CAR) buffer and spring. That seemed to clear up alot of trouble with mine...
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Posted: 9/2/2001 3:49:40 PM EDT
[#41]
Quoted: You can add a AR-stock and a full size bolt carrier. this will allow you to use a standard (or CAR) buffer and spring. That seemed to clear up alot of trouble with mine... Sorry bud,[:)] I beat you to it... I saw the pics on the link you posted earlier in this thread, and it got the gears turning in my head. I already mounted a CAR stock to this thing and tried 2 different GI bolt carriers, and 2 different buffers (1 aluminum / 1 plastic). None worked as well as the orignal POI stuff. It seems like the upper receiver is "tight" with the GI carriers, and loose with the POI carrier. If I seperate the upper from the lower and spread the upper a little with my fingers, the 2 GI carriers slide in and out MUCH easier. Maybe the bore in the upper receiver needs to be honed out ??? And just to eliminate any other possibilities, I installed the CAR stock on my Bushmaster, and tried both GI bolt carriers in it... Of course it functioned 100% There is DEFINATELY a problem with these Carbon-15's. I also don't like the plastic take down pins or the big gap between the upper and lower receivers either... It looks to be about .020-.025". I'm losing hope with this gun... I think it's going back to my dealer on Tuesday... I've had enough with this piece of shit. |
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Posted: 9/2/2001 5:25:56 PM EDT
[#42]
We are alienating our sponsors. First it was bashing RGUNS now we are bashing P.O. both of which pay to advertise on this site. I hope they just take this as constructive criticism.
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Posted: 9/2/2001 5:35:08 PM EDT
[#43]
Reconxl, your point is well-taken, and if the criticism were groundless, I would fully agree with you.
However, something tells me that these two outfits have heard these same gripes from other sources, so I'm not going to worry too much about what's posted here. |
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Posted: 9/2/2001 5:59:48 PM EDT
[#44]
Art -
I wouldn't mess with it too much - just return it to your dealer the next chance you get and see if you can get your money back. It sounds like these things are plagued with problems. If you keep it, you may eventually get it working good, but you don't need that sort of hassle with a new gun, and you shouldn't have to put up with it. If your dealer won't give you a refund, probably the best thing is to make PO take the whole gun back and let them figure it out and deal with their own mess. My concern is that if you do too much to it, you may void the warranty and thus give your dealer (and possibly PO) a reason to refuse to take it back or to fix it. |
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Posted: 9/2/2001 6:47:43 PM EDT
[#45]
Shaggy, I hope he comes to his sences. Sounds like he wants to make a Hundai into a Mercedes. I just wonder how the gunshop will handle the situation. Good luck Art. If you really want build up a PO pistol, you may be able to find a used one for sale....CHEAP.
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Posted: 9/2/2001 7:00:57 PM EDT
[#46]
Well hey, I'll put in a good word for 'em. My brother bought one and has fired about 400 rounds of crappy wolf without a single malfunction. 400 rounds is by no means a lot, but it starts to set a trend. I have a hard time believing that my brother got the only good rifle these guys ever made. And it's accurate too. So how many of you actually have had carbon 15's with problems and how many of you "knew this guy".
I believe that your pistol was messed up, but why don't you wait until you have talked to PO before you start bashing them? |
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Posted: 9/2/2001 8:02:52 PM EDT
[#47]
Quoted: Well hey, I'll put in a good word for 'em. My brother bought one and has fired about 400 rounds of crappy wolf without a single malfunction. 400 rounds is by no means a lot, but it starts to set a trend. I have a hard time believing that my brother got the only good rifle these guys ever made. And it's accurate too. So how many of you actually have had carbon 15's with problems and how many of you "knew this guy". I believe that your pistol was messed up, but why don't you wait until you have talked to PO before you start bashing them? RickyJ... You ever hear the saying: "A picture is worth a thousand words" ??? Did you happen to see the picture of the broken bolt ??? How many times have you seen this happen after 2 shots ??? If you think your brother's gun is reliable, tell him to keep shooting it. I'm sure the gun will prove otherwise... How many Carbon-15's have you personally owned and shot ??? Did you read my first post ? In it, I mentioned the fact that I previously owned a PO CAR-15 type 21 rifle. That gun didn't break anything, it just wouldn't shoot. I figured maybe I only got a lemon and I'd try them again... ....BIG MISTAKE Also, there is no need to question my credibility, several members on this website have met me in person. ....Shaggy, DavidC, Paspecops, 7, Libertyof76, FrankSquid.... Some know me better than others... How credible is your claim of 400 faiure free rounds ? I myself find it hard to believe... Maybe your brother DID get the only good gun from them... Seems to me the bad guns outnumber the good at least 10-1. I'll be returning the gun to my dealer first thing Tuesday AM. I'm sure he won't be surprised, we've been down this road before... |
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Posted: 9/3/2001 2:33:09 PM EDT
[#48]
Quoted: RickyJ... You ever hear the saying: "A picture is worth a thousand words" ??? Did you happen to see the picture of the broken bolt ??? How many times have you seen this happen after 2 shots ??? Never How many times did this happen to the first ar's? Probably a lot. When you redesign something it is going to have problems. That is just the way it is. If they replace it what's the problem? Didn't the first ar's have some problems jamming? Oh yeah, they are all pieces of crap to this day. Also, there is no need to question my credibility, several members on this website have met me in person. ....Shaggy, DavidC, Paspecops, 7, Libertyof76, FrankSquid.... Some know me better than others... I think you are a credible guy, why would I question it? I even said I believed you. How credible is your claim of 400 faiure free rounds ? I myself find it hard to believe... All right you caught me. I am really a double top secret agent. Sent here by the communist controlled Pro Ordnance company. Our goal is to destroy america by dispensing these overpriced jam-matic's to the general public. But one thing was not a lie. My brother did own a C-15. He was forced into it by the bastards. On the 12th shot it blew up. Leveled acres, killed his entire family. Why, Why, WHY! |
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