Do you not know that it rains on both the just and the unuust?

 Yes, Rik, actually it does.

Planewrench is correct.

The inquisition and the crusades were not of God........they were of men who said they represented God...........false prophets............charletains..........whatever you want to call them.  They and their methods were in no way ordained by God.

As a matter of fact, one of my best friends (he's black BTW) lives in Northern VA just outside of DC.  Which "friends" do you mean for me to meet?  They are all criminals or whatever stereotype you wish to proffer?  Brilliant.



Ohhh, that's right, I forgot, you are the last word on "them" and the black culture . . . I forgot about your ghetto experiences from posts long ago.  How dare I have an opinion based on my personal and professional experience (as an adult and juvenile criminal defense attorney)?

Sometimes, McUzi, I forget just how young, ingorant and self-absorbed you really are.

 

Ummmm . . . not really, but one out of two ain't bad.




You left out the part about you being a dellusional race-bater and me having the ability to ignore voices in my head [:D]



Agreed, however, there are bad neighborhoods all across America (you know that from experience), however, they can be black, white or brown.  

Bottom line:  There is no one race that has cornered the market on hatred (you are a good example of the "white" kind) and any race is capable of rampant criminal behavior.  ANY race.  That I know from experience as a person and a defense attorney (no, they are not mutually exclusive [;)]) and from history.

Come and try this shit over here.  I would personally take great delight in serving up a little recrimination.

We must take time to admit that there is just as big a difference among racists as there are criminals. Those racists who are relatively minor (speeders & shoplifters) to hard core (serial killers & drug lords) are worlds apart.

I do not condone racisim - this is simply an observation.

Tyler

I guess it depends on what you like to hunt.
It all depends upon the species, preferably the two legged kind.

I figure it's a great time to hunting in SA.

[b]As a matter of fact, one of my best friends (he's black BTW) lives in Northern VA just outside of DC.  Which "friends" do you mean for me to meet?  They are all criminals or whatever stereotype you wish to proffer?  Brilliant.[/b]

No, they "all" aren't. But they are a seperate, isolated culture. Being such, they have issues as a "CULTURE" that are native to them. One of them is the complete inability to function in a civil European based nation AS A CULTURE. While there are certianly those amonngst them who can, and do quite well, as a culture, they can't hack it.

[b]Ohhh, that's right, I forgot, you are the last word on "them" and the black culture . . . I forgot about your ghetto experiences from posts long ago.  How dare I have an opinion based on my personal and professional experience (as an adult and juvenile criminal defense attorney)?[/b]

Nope. I am not, nor have I ever claimed to be. But what I do claim is an element of first hand experience that most people don't, but falsley think they do because they deal with a black person or two in day to day life. They think that is a justifyer for black culture as a whole, which it ain't. BTW- Your injecting the "I AM A CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY" into the conversation about Blacks? So, since you are a criminal defense attorney, you should have a first hand perspective on black culture, right?
Your slippin Steve...

[b]Sometimes, McUzi, I forget just how young, ingorant and self-absorbed you really are.[/b]

Guilty, not guilty, guilty.



[b]You left out the part about you being a dellusional race-bater and me having the ability to ignore voices in my head [:D][/b]

VOICES?
WHAT VOICES?
WHO SAID THAT?
WHAT? [:p]

[b]Agreed,[/b]

this negates anything you are about to follow up with...

[b][s]however, there are bad neighborhoods all across America (you know that from experience), however, they can be black, white or brown. [/b][/s]

[b]Bottom line:  There is no one race that has cornered the market on hatred (you are a good example of the "white" kind) and any race is capable of rampant criminal behavior.  ANY race.  That I know from experience as a person and a defense attorney (no, they are not mutually exclusive [;)]) and from history.[/b]

Yup. There are scum whites that are worse than good blacks. But so long as black culture is a seperate element (Which it is in America, unlike places like Britian where they have been sucessfully absorbed into society), and they continue to commit a hugely disproportionate amount of crime (Mainly gun crimes) we have to view the cultural aspects of blacks as a whole, in order to correct the cultural problems.
Taking them all as "individuals" is fine on an antecdotal level, but in the context of society, it only works that way in Peter Pan land...

In answer to "Aren't Jews White?" I always thought they considered themselves "Semite's" like Arabs and Jews are both Semetic peoples, hence the term "anti-semetic?

Once, a long time ago, there were 2 brothers, Jacob and Essau.
The eldest, Essau, was in line to inheret the land of Israel.
Essau was large, dark skinned, and hairy. He liked to hunt, and to fight.
While Jacob was soft spoken, almost timid, with fair features, and very smart.
One day, Essau came home from hunting. Jacob was in the cooking area, making some soup.
Essau was hungry, and asked Jacob for the soup.
Jacob told him that he would give him the soup, only so long as Essau agreed to give Jacob his birthright, the land of Israel.
Essau agreed.

Essau is the father of the Arabs, while Jacob is the father of the Jews. They fight over the land like quarreling brothers, and always will.

Or at least that's how a Jew explained it to me...

What are your solutions to this problem, Landon?

Why does it always fall on white culture to solve their problems?
They choose to be seperate, so they should fix their own damn problems. When thier problems bite whitey in the ass, and he reacts, they scream "RACIST", and many white people fear that.It's the "Mighty Whitey and Lowly old Darkey" syndrome. In the name of "anti-racism", many white people assume the problems of black culture as their own, almost as to admit that blacks are too inept to take care of it themselves.How should I solve it?
I don't care to solve the problems of others.
How should they solve it?
Not my problem, but I hope they do, or else they will continue to live they way they are as a culture.

Is this a holly war? I think NOT!!!Any of us in the great USA would not stand for 1 farmer being killed,let alone 900+.Stay armed stay FREE!!

Actually, I wasn't asking [b]you[/b] to solve their problems, I was asking for your suggested solutions.  Since you know so much about them, I was sure you would have it all figured out.

If you don't have any solutions, then you're just complaining.  Anybody can do that.

Alot of the "black rage" some of you are referring to is learned behaviour.

It comes from the media, Jesse Jackson, Al Sharpton, Bill Clinton and others of their ilk who are CONSTANTLY feeding black people that they are repressed, dicriminated against and hated by ALL white people. It can be clearly seen that when fed a CONSTANT diet of these lies, SOME black people react in rage.

Are some people rude and un-Biblical in their treatment of black people?? SURE. But by and large, the hatred flows BOTH ways. And it is fairly isolated.

If the media would quit spreading the lies, I believe alot of the hatred would end. On BOTH sides.

Very, very true garandman.

Tyler

Rik, X-kill got it pretty much right.  By their fruits you shall know them.  "THE Church" has shown through history that it is status quo as far as the state of human nature ie. power, bloodshed, corruption.  The protestant reformation that birthed our nation has had the effect of washing most of the rest of the world in physical blessing.  It is the idea that man is naturally evil and a government of men must be thoroughly bound and the rights of every man written permanently in ink.  The rights are sacred and unaleinable because each man is made in God's image.  BTW Rik, I understand we differ in our logic due to our differences in the origin of everything but I don't think you have let me out of the sterotype of what "Christianity" has been opened up to include.  The church, and God are sometimes two completely different things.  Planerench out.

We will agree to disagree on this conclusion although I respect your argument because it is based on proportional statistics and is not without merit.

My beef was with the whole "the race war is acomin'!" thing.

BTW, I've studied those stats in my role as a "defense attorney" and that is why I brought up my profession above.  You intimated I was without knowledge on this subject and I was intimating that my role as a defense attorney has allowed an interesting perspective on the black community, both rich and poor, however I am definately no expert.



See above.  And to answer your question, yes.



Did you hear that, wha, what the f*ck was that? [;)]



Really?  You've never heard of a qualified answer or agreement?  It means "I agree in general with your statement, but let me point out . . ."


Wrong, we don't have to view them as a "whole".  You had me until the "but".

If it is a holly war, we're gonna kick some ash.
[:D]

No, planewrench was incorrect, because he said "This is what happens when God is voluntarily removed from a society by its citizens."  He didn't say "when people use God to do bad things."  You're arguing a point that no one made.

No, he got it pretty much wrong since he AND you are now ignoring the words YOU used.

Rik, I only have a minute to respond here.  I really have no idea what you said just now.  I would like to hear how we differ from African nations. out

I don't believe that the concept of man as inherently evil originated with Martin Luther.  Rather, I think the importance of the Reformation was that it gave an alternative to the view that religious and political authority was delegated by God to earthly rulers.

I only meant that the Reformation was the point of the timeline that can be traced to Plymouth 1620 and from there to the American modification to the British system.  No argument.  Planerench out.

These are truly horrible. They were, probably for the most part, performed by rogues and outcasts and dirtbags.

Unfortunately the blacks of this region have been persecuted by the whites for so many years that sticking around there was just plain stupid. Yeah yeah yeah, you can tell me how they didn't have anywhere else to go but there are people dieing like this all over the world and in much larger numbers, of every color (even white). It sucks but that is part of living in a third world country. They were screwed over by their white ancestors who started this whole mess.

Don't bet me wrong, this is a horrible thing and if I were there with some of my toys then there would be a bunch of dead bodies around the yard. I just don't find it all that big of a suprise and it falls under the category of "what the hell did you expect anyway?".

I'll be happy when the multiracial people take over the world. Maybe then everybody will be able to live together. People have proven time and time again that they aren't intelligent enough to live together with diversity, even if it is as simple as color.

Gees in a few hundred years, when we are all a medium shade of brown, we'll have to come up with a different reason to kill each other. Well at least we'll still have religion to kill someone for.

Hell, I'm ready for the dolphins to take over.  

I've been wondering, does anyone know how many people were killed during the Inquisition? or the Crusades?

I mean these two historical chains of events, spread out over several centuries, always seem to show up in the liberal's vision of world history, as a counterweight to the true evil done by that famous troika of atheists - Stalin, Hitler and Mao!

These three atheists managed to kill, what, at least one hundred million souls, during their relatively short reigns of terror?

What's the body count on the Inquisition and for all the Crusades?

Any estimates? C'mon, there's gotta be some bad history written out there somewhere on these numbers!  What's the numbers?

Well, I would suggest that either you find out some good numbers on the estimates of actual deaths caused by these two events, or simply quit using them as evidence...

[size=4]when you have [u]no[/u] friggin idea how many people were killed![/size=4]

And I think we can all agree that numbers guessed at by Amnesty International simply are not 'unbiased' sufficiently enough to stand as any kind of reliable evidence for your arguments.

While you're looking THAT up, please try and see how many of the 'Founding Fathers' were Deists? I don't think that I could find more than three, but I'll be pleased if you can find any more.

Eric The(YouMayWantToCheckInTheRecordsOfTheFirstDeistChurchInOldBoston,NoWait!ThereIsn'tOne!)Hun[>]:)]

[b]Maybe it's just me, but I see relations between Black and White Americans as getting better.[b]

[b]Tyler[/quote][b]

Maybe you have just been fooled from seeing all those white "women"(and I use the term loosely) in those gangster rap videos.

Hitler wasn't an atheist. He wasn't a Christian either...he was closest, I guess, to a pagan.

Just a thought, but does anybody know how large a group of murderers we are talking about here?
While they may have a large amount of implied support from the masses, does anybody actually believe that every black person in S.A. is running around slaughtering farmers?
From some of the posts here it seems like that is what is believed.

If he wasn't an atheist, then would he have to be a theist?  OK, but not a Christian.  Then you would seem to classify Hitler, the pagan, as at least part of the population of non-Christian theists.  Just as...Jews...are...non-...Christian...theists.      

RIK is WRITE
(heh. I made a pun)

Hitler believed in a higher power, but took issue with most religions.

Kinda like how many people take issue with religions, thus believe there isn't a god due to wrongs of certain churches. It's as if they connotate "churches of man" with "god". That is dumb. All man is doing with churches is trying to interpret what god said. And that can often get skewed.

Landon

So Hitler MAY have been a [u]Theist[/u]? Is that the question before the house? I would suggest that you consider the following:

Was Hitler an atheist? (Continued)

"Hitler’s racial image of the world was not the product of his own delusion, but the result of the findings of respectable science. When Hitler read Fritsch or Liebenfels, he merely absorbed ideas that were widely entertained in both academic and popular circles. (Nothing makes me more certain of the victory of our ideas than our success in the universities—Adolf Hitler, 1930) The message embodied in these doctrines was unmistakable; any living organism is engaged in a ceaseless struggle for existence and is doomed to extinction if it does not fight. Nations, like individuals, are also engaged in a ceaseless conflict in which only the fittest can hope to survive." ([i]Nazi Germany[/i], Klaus Fischer).

"The key figure in the emergence of a romantic materialism that would embrace both Darwinian science and philosophical irrationalism was Friedrich Nietzche. His critique of compassion and glorification of violence, his belief in the evolution of a Superman who would be beyond good an evil, and his intellectual assault on the Judeo-Christian tradition were foundation stones in the development of theory." ([i]Modern Fascism[/i], Veith)

It’s this repudiation of moral and spiritual values that has led to the millions of murdered masses in the 20th Century. While atheist constantly rail about the threat the Christian Right poses, its atheism and its disciples that have lead the way in this bloodiest of centuries.

"Incredibly, three dictators, Mussolini, Hitler, and Stalin, all three sons of devout, doting mothers at whose knees they learned to recite their prayers, all three educated at Church schools, and all three emerged as atheists and persecutors of religion." ([i]Delivered from Evil, the Saga of WWII[/i], Robert Leckie).

"Hitler shared with Stalin the same materialist outlook, based on 19th century rationalist’ certainty that the progress of science would destroy all myths and had already proved Christian doctrine to be an absurdity." (Alan Bullock, [i]Hitler and Stalin[/i])

"Hitler was really reflecting the tendency of the age. Science had become the one truly unchallenged authority. As the laws of evolution and selection put forth by Charles Darwin and Herbert Spencer were popularized in numerous pseudo-scientific publications, the average person soon came to know that the ‘struggle for existence’ was the fundamental principal of life, the ‘survival of the fittest’ the basic law governing the societal conduct of individuals and nations" ([i]Hitler[/i], Joachim Fest)

"It’s true that like most groups in Germany, a large part of the Church capitulated under the Nazi revolution. Much of the German Church was just a shell waiting to collapse. After years of radical Biblical criticism, which is still with us today (see the Jesus Seminar), it was the Liberal Church which fell under Nazi sway most readily and completely. While the conservative Church in America must be careful in identifying too closely with conservative politics, after all our kingdom is not of this world, it is instructive to note that it was the conservative, or confessing church that stood against the Nazi Regime."

"Beginning about 1881, a new type of anti-Semitism evolved in Germany. This type was based on racial grounds, rather than religious ones and was called scientific or racial anti-Semitism ([i]Why Hitler? The Greatness of the Nazi Reich[/i], Samuel Mitcham Jr.)

Eric The(EvenMoreToFollow)Hun[>]:)]

Was Hitler an Atheist? (Continued)

I conclude with two quotes from two individuals who provide a little more insight into the question before this house -

"Having always been an ardent partisan of freedom, I turned to the Universities, as soon as the [Nazi] revolution broke out in Germany, to find the Universities took refugee in silence. I then turned to the editors of powerful newspapers, who, but lately in flowing articles, had claimed to be the faithful champions of liberty. These men, as well as the Universities, were reduced to silence in a few weeks. I then addressed myself to the authors individually, to those who passed themselves off as the intellectual guides of Germany, and among whom many had frequently discussed the question of freedom and its place in modern life. They are in their turn very dumb. [b]Only the Church opposed the fight which Hitler was waging against liberty. Till then I had no interest in the Church, but now I feel great admiration and am truly attracted to the Church which had the persistent courage to fight for spiritual truth and moral freedom. I feel obliged to confess that I now admire what I used to consider of little value[/b]." (Albert Einstein).

"Within the system of the concentration camp something very strange took place. The first to give in, the first to collaborate—to save their lives—were the intellectuals, the liberals, the humanists, the professors of sociology, and the like.  Because suddenly their whole concept of the universe broke down. They had nothing to lean on." (Elie Wiesel).

Eric The(NowWhoBelievesThatHitlerWasn'tAnAtheist?)Hun[>]:)]

Eric) Your quotes are sugesting that Hitler wasn't a Christian.
You are using that to support an argument that since he wasn't a Christian, he didn't believe in a god.

This is wrong, and a Billion non-Christian Hindus prove it.

God and Christ aren't mutually exclusive to all people. Once can still believe in a God without subscribing to the "savior" notion...

So, Hitler wasn't an Athiest. He simply just wasn't a Christian.

[b]Well, Landon, tell me the name of the god that Hitler believed in.[/b] [>]:)]

Well, in English, it's "GOD"
In Arabic, it's "Allah"
In Hindu, it's "VISHNU"
Some people call him Jehovah, others call him Jesus.

As far as what Hitler called him?
I don't know.
How do you say "GOD" in German?

[b]No, Landon, tell me the name of the god that you are saying that Hitler believed in, don't just guess, show proof that Hitler believed in anything other than himself.[/b]

If he's not an atheist, it should be easy for you to tell me who he worshipped! I've shown a good bit of writings that described Hitler's beliefs as simple atheism. If there is one prophet that Hitler 'worshipped' it would be Frederich Nietzsche, probably the [u]greatest[/u] atheist of all time.

[size=4]'God is Dead' - Nietzsche[/size=4]
[size=5]'Nietzsche is Dead' - God[/size=5]

Eric The(BTWIt's'Gott'InGerman,ButHitlerDidn'tWorshipHIMEither!)Hun[>]:)]

[b]No, Eric, You apparently can't comprehend someone believing in a god that isn't a Christian god.[/b]

Look at the quotes you used to justify your position!
They are anti-Christian quotes. Not anti-God quotes.
Example?
Jews believe in a god, but they don't believe in Allah... THey may say the same thing about Allah that Hitler said about Christians. Does that mean that Jews don't believe in a god?
I don't know what Jews call him, but I often see them calling him ~~~> g-d <~~~

Are you going to make me go back and highlight every quote you wrote, pointing out how it was anti-christian and not anti-god?
Just go back and read them for your self. Hell. You wrote them.
Hitler believed in a higher power, a power we all like to refer to as "GOD", but he hated Christians. Not GOD. "CHRISTIANS"

Nay, not so Landon, I quite believe that others worship a god of their own choosing, I'm simply asking you to name the 'god' that Hitler believed in.  You know, the one [u]he[/u] worshipped.

The one that prevents you from having to call him an 'atheist.'

Eric The(ThatShouldBeReallyEasy)Hun[>]:)]

OK Eric. It is easy.

Hitler believed in "GOD", not "Prophets"

The name of Hitlers god was ****GOD****

You said that -

If you read the quotes that others (not me) wrote, you will see that Hitler, although raised from his mother's knee to be a good and devout Christian, apparently fell away!

Now if he was no longer a Christian, what makes YOU think he continued to believe in any 'god'?
He surely never said he did! But if YOU have information...

So what was this god's name?

You seem to think that I believe that if you do not believe in Jesus, that you're an atheist!
Not so, I will accept the dictionary definition of 'atheist' for the purpose of this argument.

I don't believe that he believed in any power higher than himself. The historians I quoted are content to call him, along with Stalin, an atheist. What revelation can you provide that shows us otherwise?

Maybe you're hung up on my use of the word 'god', so how about 'supreme being' instead?


Where did you find the evidence that Hitler believed in GOD? I couldn't find ANY!

Eric The(WhenA'Christian'RejectsChristianity,WhoDoesHeThenBelieveIn?)Hun[>]:)]

Damn, wouldn't it suck if we were all nothing more than a continuing yet close to failed experiment by some more advanced civilization on another planet in a galaxy far, far away.

Hell with the tin foil hat, I want a tin foil planet.

Reply to leadfly -

Sorta like in Kurt Vonnegut's novels, that the human race was begun simply for the purpose of delivering a repair part to a Tralfalmodorian (-sp?) space ship marooned on Jupiter?

Eric The(Sci-FiLiterate)Hun[>]:)]

Eric, the evidence is in the various cryptoarchaeological hunts on which Nazi archeaologists were sent in the late 30s...they were searching for the Spear of Destiny, the Holy Grail, etc...the first and third Indiana Jones films were based on this fact (although they didn't send military troops, just a couple archaeologists).
Hitler didn't believe in a Christian God (or the god of any of the major religions) but he toyed with a belief in the Norse pantheon and definitely held a superstitious belief in the supernatural.

[b]



[:)] No, I think it probably was that really sexy black grad student at Purdue I dated for about three months. [:P]

She couldn't stand "Gangsta Rap" stuff. We did go to a couple of Blues/Jazz concerts together though. We are still good friends.

Tyler

Post from Rikwriter -

'Toyed with a belief' is an appropriate phrase to use in describing Hitler's personal use of religious symbolism IN DEALING WITH HIS PEOPLE.

He purposefully chose to described himself in messianic terms, not because he believed that [u]he[/u] was a messiah, but simply because he wanted the German People to believe him to be a messiah for them, and not one that would be crucified on a tree.  Both the Lord's Prayer, and many other Christian prayers were altered and defaced by Hitler and his cronies to put his name in place of Jesus' name.  These attempts were successful and a whole generation of Germans grew up reciting a bastardized version of the Lord's prayer.

Even his refusal to wed Eva Braun until the very end was to encourage the German People to view him in messianic terms.

Any and all attempts by the Nazis to uncover a grail, a cross, an arc, whatever, were simply aimed at creating another 'toy' to be used, along with the [i]Blutflanne[/i] of the 9 Nov 23 Putsche, as a means of distracting the German People.  Hitler was not distracted at all by these 'toys.'

But at the end of this discussion, let us try to determine just who Hitler believed in.  The most informative document that we would ordinarily examine would be the Last Will and Testament of someone, to discover how they were privately preparing to 'meet their maker.'

I won't quote from Hitler's private and political 'testaments', but I will provide a link that includes both.  Review these items to see if there is ANY mention whatsoever of (1) an acknowledgement of life after death, (2) a request for forgiveness from some Supreme Being, (3) provisions made for any burial in keeping with religious traditions of ANY kind,  
(4) any requests for prayers, (5) any request for memorials, or (6) any language at all that suggests that Hitler expected to be ANYWHERE on May 1, 1945, [u]other[/u] than in a pyre in the courtyard of the ReichsKanzlerei

[url]http://www.ibiblio.org/pha/policy/1945/450429a.html[/url]

Note that there are no visions of Valhalla, no peans to Odin, Wotan, whatever. In fact there is nothing 'mystical' at all referred to in any way! Not much of an occultist, was he?

In closing, did Hitler believe in anyone or anything greater than himself? In a word, no.

Did he hold superstitious views, or did the people he tried to lead hold superstitious views?

That is an atheist, pure and simple, however he may try to present himself to the gullible in the garb of something else.

Eric The(UnAtheist)Hun[>]:)]

Whatever Eric. I know that it's vital to your view of the world that all the most evil people in it be atheists, so I won't try to disturb your vision any further.
Let's just say that if Hitler was an atheist he wasn't a REAL atheist...(to borrow a phrase used so many times in excuses by Christians).

What in the hell does rather or not hitler was an atheist have to do with the price of dildos in dallas? The point of this thread is that AS WE SPEAK africans are taking farms by force and killing the inhabitants in VERY brutal ways.  It's funny how fast this thread turned into a "Hitler was a bad white atheist who liked to kill jews" thread. It's more important what Hitler did over 50 years ago than the atrocities that are happening RIGHT  NOW?

This is the result of American feel-good policies forced upon another country.

It is also the result of Gun control laws.

It is the reason that we should Never.  Ever.   EVER give up our RTKBA.

Interesting how you never hear any outrage in the media about it huh?

One of our silohouette shooters and his father just went on a hunt in africa (no uppercase on purpose). They had to have 3 armed guards with them. They were lying on a hill getting ready to take some 6-800 yard shots on game when the guide saw something coming. It was a group of rebels. The guide went ahead tried to tell the rebels not to come close because of the hunt, they ignored and advanced. The three armed guards (soldiers) ran and hid in the brush. The Americans commenced to shoot the rebels @ 800 yards (w/ 338 Weatherby mags and higher). They took one kill per round, and after 8 rebels were plowed over @ 800 yards (armed only w/ AK's), the rest retreated. The guide told them to pick up their stuff and go (as it wasn't wise to stick around). After the shooting stopped, the 3 guards magically appeared from out of the brush and escorted them back. They all made it out of the country, put unfortunately brought back  no "good" trophies. The man's father (as I'm told) is 75, hunts weekly, and took 80 pigs last year. All off the kills were center mass.