Quoted: Without a counterbalance, no matter what it is, industry and business will become corrupt and ruin the normal working man or at least set us back 100 years. .

'zactly....

Quoted: Quoted: Without a counterbalance, no matter what it is, industry and business will become corrupt and ruin the normal working man or at least set us back 100 years. . 'zactly....

Well shit, I wonder why my company pays our customer service folks who answer the phone About $18 an hour?

WITHOUT A UNION????


OMGOMGOMGOMGOMG.


As for above? Bull shit.  Union's are the cause or more jobs going overseas than anything except excessive taxation.

TXL

Quoted: Quoted: It's your friend, too. Read 'The myth of the robber barron'  and get some context as to ALL the reasons why unions were put in place, instead of just pontificating on what you think you know. You see the same mentality here that cuased the unions to be formed: People fear their jobs will be taken by someone who will work for less (in the post civil war days it had a lot to do with racism by those who feared blacks would come up from the south and do their jobs for less). That caused a lot of organizing - just as 'selfish' as those who owned the companies. There's no "What I think I know", jackass, and I'm not pontificating.

Get called on your rambling, and call me a jackass. Guess you don't like it when people question your bullshit.

I'm not responding to you anymore.

BTW, how do I find out which mods are online? I want to report a CoC violation.

Quoted: Well shit, I wonder why my company pays our customer service folks who answer the phone About $18 an hour? WITHOUT A UNION????

Probably because it will keep them happy enough that they won't be tempted to search for better pay working for one of your competitors, but more importantly, to prevent them from leaving with the all their contacts.

Add $10/hr to that and full health coverage and I might even be tempted to work for you.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: It's your friend, too. Read 'The myth of the robber barron'  and get some context as to ALL the reasons why unions were put in place, instead of just pontificating on what you think you know. You see the same mentality here that cuased the unions to be formed: People fear their jobs will be taken by someone who will work for less (in the post civil war days it had a lot to do with racism by those who feared blacks would come up from the south and do their jobs for less). That caused a lot of organizing - just as 'selfish' as those who owned the companies. There's no "What I think I know", jackass, and I'm not pontificating. Get called on your rambling, and call me a jackass. Guess you don't like it when people question your bullshit. I'm not responding to you anymore. BTW, how do I find out which mods are online? I want to report a CoC violation.

You mean, file a grievance??

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: It's your friend, too. Read 'The myth of the robber barron'  and get some context as to ALL the reasons why unions were put in place, instead of just pontificating on what you think you know. You see the same mentality here that cuased the unions to be formed: People fear their jobs will be taken by someone who will work for less (in the post civil war days it had a lot to do with racism by those who feared blacks would come up from the south and do their jobs for less). That caused a lot of organizing - just as 'selfish' as those who owned the companies. There's no "What I think I know", jackass, and I'm not pontificating. Get called on your rambling, and call me a jackass. Guess you don't like it when people question your bullshit. I'm not responding to you anymore. BTW, how do I find out which mods are online? I want to report a CoC violation. You mean, file a grievance??

Now that was funny!  ROFLMAO

Quoted: Well shit, I wonder why my company pays our customer service folks who answer the phone About $18 an hour? WITHOUT A UNION???? Union's are the cause or more jobs going overseas than anything except excessive taxation.

Am isolated  example of a respectable employer paying a decent wage has no relevance in relation to the real need for unions in the manufacturing or service sector where abuse of employees is rampant.    

"Free" trade agreements is the reason for jobs going across the water and into Mexico/South America.

When manufacturers are forced to compete with 3rd world wages, they build their facility in the 3rd world countries.   Count yourself fortunate that your "customer service" jobs are NOT YET outsourced.

Quoted: Add $10/hr to that and full health coverage and I might even be tempted to work for you.

Quoted: Quoted: Anyone who supports unions, hates capitalism. Quoted: Is it just me, or does it seem like the only people that have a problem with unions are the ones that aren't in them? Kinda like the only people who are anti-gun are the ones who don't have them. Serves to remove a lot of credibility from the argument. Apparently there are those who are fortunate enough to never needed to work in the manufacturing sector.   Capitalism does not need oppression of the working class to survive.  Quayle was so proud of the Job Training Partnership act. ...  It was a program which gave government subsidies to a company for the first few months of employment for low income people.  The problem was that the non-union manufacturing plants would hire new people and then fire them after the government corporate welfare ran out.  This is only 1 example of many abuses.

Capitalism relies upon the laws of supply and demand. This includes labor commodities.

You are a labor commodity.

When you can only work with your hands, you've reduced yourself to being a commodity among the most plentiful labor skill in the world.

When you educate yourself, you differentiate yourself into an area of specialization. The fewer people who can do what you do, the higher cost you can demand. The inverse is also true. The more people who do what you do, the lower your cost becomes as people compete to win the jobs.

Unions attempt to usurp funamental capitalist laws and attempt to artificially inflate the value of a worker without any value-add to the commercial enterprise. They do so through rationalization and extortion. Eventually, the laws balance themselves through the mitigation of the economic viability of the commercial concern, thus destroying the capitalist opportunity. Unions promote socialism through government subsidization of what is no longer a market viable entity.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: I think the trouble with unions is they are stuck in the 19th century. As in politics, power corrupts. I agree with swingset, they do serve a purpose; However they are made up of "people." Sometimes failable, often self-serving, and very often grossly ineffective. Unfortunately, I've seen unions cause more harm than good in my experience. I once knew a union president to "stand his ground" in negotiations with a failing company. In a nutshell; The company's product line was obsolete.  Area was poverty stricken, not a lot of jobs. Average wage at this company was well over $15 per hour.  Company asks for a pay cut for for a year to help with expenses of retooling. Union refuses.("We've always made "whatnots" that's a company problem!") Company closes after over 100 years. Relocates to neighboring state(who offered generous tax incentives) changes product line, and makes the new product. I think there were close to 100 jobs lost. I think this happened because of the mistrust between the company and the union. I imagine the unions were  needed in the age of the "robber barons." I think in the information age they're a little redundant. JMHO & YMMV Hessian-1   Here's a little info on todays "robber barons". For or against In my line of work the unions are a necessary evil The Florida Times-Union March 22, 2006 CSX CEO rakes in $22.6 million In a year in which Jacksonville-based railroad CSX Corp. earned $1.145 billion -- more than double its earnings from the year before -- its chief executive officer raked in $22.6 million in total compensation. ... So the CEO doubles the earnings, gets less than 2% of the earnings as a bonus and he's a robber barron? Jealousy, pure and simple. Fact is,without these 'robber barons', union hacks wouldn't have a job - unless they sucked off the government teet as a public employee. Face it, if you're in the lower rungs of a company, like union employees generally are, you're pretty much interchangable with anyone who can has the training or can be trained. That's millions and millions of people. That's why their compensation is what it is. Having the talent, intelligence, imagination and courage to run a successful multi million or multi-billion dollar business is a rare skillset. That's why they're paid so much. Of course, the principle of supply and demand generally isn't recognized by (most) union members.

So, how did that former AT&T CEO get fired for lacking 'intellectial leadership' get a multi-million $$ severence package.  Once you get to that level, you can be a mental midget for 6 months and walk away with millions, amazing... Talented CEOs are rare, marginal ones get just as rich, regardless of how incompetent.

Quoted: Quoted: Well shit, I wonder why my company pays our customer service folks who answer the phone About $18 an hour? WITHOUT A UNION???? Union's are the cause or more jobs going overseas than anything except excessive taxation. Am isolated  example of a respectable employer paying a decent wage has no relevance in relation to the real need for unions in the manufacturing or service sector where abuse of employees is rampant.     "Free" trade agreements is the reason for jobs going across the water and into Mexico/South America. When manufacturers are forced to compete with 3rd world wages, they build their facility in the 3rd world countries.   Count yourself fortunate that your "customer service" jobs are NOT YET outsourced.

I hardly consider Toyota Motor Corporation an isolated example of a respectable employer paying a decent wage.

It's also no surprise that they are one of the strongest automotive companies in the world, and one of the strongest selling brands in the US with the highest residual value.

It's also no surprise that they are not union, nor will they likely ever be.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: It's your friend, too. Read 'The myth of the robber barron'  and get some context as to ALL the reasons why unions were put in place, instead of just pontificating on what you think you know. You see the same mentality here that cuased the unions to be formed: People fear their jobs will be taken by someone who will work for less (in the post civil war days it had a lot to do with racism by those who feared blacks would come up from the south and do their jobs for less). That caused a lot of organizing - just as 'selfish' as those who owned the companies. There's no "What I think I know", jackass, and I'm not pontificating. Get called on your rambling, and call me a jackass. Guess you don't like it when people question your bullshit. I'm not responding to you anymore. BTW, how do I find out which mods are online? I want to report a CoC violation. You mean, file a grievance?? Now that was funny!  ROFLMAO

But not germane to the subject at hand.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: It's your friend, too. Read 'The myth of the robber barron'  and get some context as to ALL the reasons why unions were put in place, instead of just pontificating on what you think you know. You see the same mentality here that cuased the unions to be formed: People fear their jobs will be taken by someone who will work for less (in the post civil war days it had a lot to do with racism by those who feared blacks would come up from the south and do their jobs for less). That caused a lot of organizing - just as 'selfish' as those who owned the companies. There's no "What I think I know", jackass, and I'm not pontificating. Get called on your rambling, and call me a jackass. Guess you don't like it when people question your bullshit. I'm not responding to you anymore. BTW, how do I find out which mods are online? I want to report a CoC violation. You mean, file a grievance?? Now that was funny!  ROFLMAO But not germane to the subject at hand.

True, but funny none the less!

 Personally I don't think most union types care about corruption and thievery in their union leadership as long as they get paid their exorbidant rates.  Most union members I know admit to being wage whores.  

America needs cheap immigrant labor!



Oh...uh...wait....

Quoted: Capitalism relies upon the laws of supply and demand. This includes labor commodities.

Too funny.... devalue skilled labor to be just another commodity....

Organized labor agreements benefit both the employer and the employee.    They also prevent the employer from discarding employees as if they were just another raw material in the manufacturing process.   Unions are no threat to capitalism.   The labor machine of the USSR collapsed while capitalism thrived over the past 50 years in union with organized labor.  "Free" trade has been the downfall.

Quoted:  Personally I don't think most union types care about corruption and thievery in their union leadership as long as they get paid their exorbidant rates.  Most union members I know admit to being wage whores.

You've got to be kidding!?!  Now union members go along with corruption and thievery just to make a better wage?   How about all the corruption and thievery in non-union companys?  It doesn't matter if the work is union or not,  just like everything else, there is good and bad.

Quoted: I hardly consider Toyota Motor Corporation an isolated example of a respectable employer paying a decent wage.

In the US automotive manufacturing world, it is.  Wages didn't kill the US Auto Maker, lack of corporate  vision and missmanagement killed it along with "Free" trade.    It was only after the poor corporate management leading to shrinking profits did wages and benefits for the US auto worker become an issue.

tag

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: It's your friend, too. Read 'The myth of the robber barron'  and get some context as to ALL the reasons why unions were put in place, instead of just pontificating on what you think you know. You see the same mentality here that cuased the unions to be formed: People fear their jobs will be taken by someone who will work for less (in the post civil war days it had a lot to do with racism by those who feared blacks would come up from the south and do their jobs for less). That caused a lot of organizing - just as 'selfish' as those who owned the companies. There's no "What I think I know", jackass, and I'm not pontificating. Get called on your rambling, and call me a jackass. Guess you don't like it when people question your bullshit. I'm not responding to you anymore. BTW, how do I find out which mods are online? I want to report a CoC violation. You mean, file a grievance?? Now that was funny!  ROFLMAO But not germane to the subject at hand. True, but funny none the less!

While I do find the fact that someone who can't stand being called on the innacurate theories resorts to calling me a Jackass amusing, it's still a violation of the CoC and shouldn't be tolerated.

Quoted: Quoted: Capitalism relies upon the laws of supply and demand. This includes labor commodities. Too funny.... devalue skilled labor to be just another commodity....

Because all labor is a commodity, in one way or another.

It is subject to the laws of supply and demand just like every other commodity.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: It's your friend, too. Read 'The myth of the robber barron'  and get some context as to ALL the reasons why unions were put in place, instead of just pontificating on what you think you know. You see the same mentality here that cuased the unions to be formed: People fear their jobs will be taken by someone who will work for less (in the post civil war days it had a lot to do with racism by those who feared blacks would come up from the south and do their jobs for less). That caused a lot of organizing - just as 'selfish' as those who owned the companies. There's no "What I think I know", jackass, and I'm not pontificating. Get called on your rambling, and call me a jackass. Guess you don't like it when people question your bullshit. I'm not responding to you anymore. BTW, how do I find out which mods are online? I want to report a CoC violation. You mean, file a grievance?? Now that was funny!  ROFLMAO But not germane to the subject at hand. True, but funny none the less! While I do find the fact that someone who can't stand being called on the innacurate theories resorts to calling me a Jackass amusing, it's still a violation of the CoC and shouldn't be tolerated.

You need to read more carefully.  The only thing I stated as funny is the "grievance" quote.  I whole heartedly agree there should be no name calling.

Quoted:  Personally I don't think most union types care about corruption and thievery in their union leadership as long as they get paid their exorbitant rates.  Most union members I know admit to being wage whores.

This may be true, to a point; everyone is in it for the money, including you upper management types. Why pretend it's not true?

We DO care about it when, as I mentioned here earlier on, corruption reaches a level where high-ranking officers divert OUR pension funds for personal gain, such as to build hotels for themselves.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: (Is it just me, or does it seem like the only people that have a problem with unions are the ones that aren't in them? Kinda like the only people who are anti-gun are the ones who don't have them. Serves to remove a lot of credibility from the argument. Fun to watch, though, especially for students of logic!) Uh, no. People can see how damaging unions are -- well, except for people who are in unions. Public employee unions are the worst of all. Isn't that just about the same thing I said? I can see a lot of the problems with unions, even the issues I previously mentioned that were poisoning my own union. I just don't think it's rational to generalize about ALL unions (I belong to a skilled trade, not a public employee union; I can empathize with your feelings on this.). That is like saying that everyone who has a gun is a criminal. Please don't lump me in with, say, the teacher's unions and such. I'm merely stating my own position. People who want to continually cry about it here in thread after thread are beating a dead horse. It in no way affects me (as if I'd be brow-beaten into submission and quitting the union so I can go work for minimum wage while all you white-collar workers pocket all the savings). How's THAT for generalization? I've seen the results of my non-union counterparts in action. Sure, they get it done a little cheaper... maybe even a little faster. That's fine, because then I can come along behind them and either finish what they couldn't finish, or redo it so it's right. Unfortunately for them, one thing they lack is a good reputation. Not meant to sound like a rant, BTW. I'm just saying I can see good points on both sides. It's not as simple as black and white. The idea that unions "are not needed" is short-sighted and preposterous.

I think you are mixing up a trade guild or trade union with a labor union.

Labor unions are parasitic. witness the UAW. here is a union that keeps drug addicts and alcoholics employeed at ridiculously high wages (100k a year for a FORK LIFT DRIVER!)

trade unions are another story. Machinests, carpenters, masons have marketable job skills. IE someone off the street can't come in and learn their job in a week or a month. their skills come from exstensive training or experiance (like mine).

Quoted: Quoted:  Personally I don't think most union types care about corruption and thievery in their union leadership as long as they get paid their exorbitant rates.  Most union members I know admit to being wage whores.   This may be true, to a point; everyone is in it for the money, including you upper management types. Why pretend it's not true? We DO care about it when, as I mentioned here earlier on, corruption reaches a level where high-ranking officers divert OUR pension funds for personal gain, such as to build hotels for themselves.

 So stealing among union bosses is O.K. as long as they don't steal from you.  Nice racket ya got there.  

 BTW I'm engineering not management.

Quoted: What the very few of us who see both sides often have to say is that unions are a necessary evil, and no more bad than industry as a whole is good. They are what they are, flawed, and corrupt, but still better than a world with all the power in the hands of business.

Without Unions, all the power still wouldn't be in the hands of business. Have you ever heard of "quitting"?

Back in the old days, you couldn't just quit and leave because you probably owed money to the company store that you were bound to pay back. The laws of the time supported that. But they don't anymore.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: (Is it just me, or does it seem like the only people that have a problem with unions are the ones that aren't in them? Kinda like the only people who are anti-gun are the ones who don't have them. Serves to remove a lot of credibility from the argument. Fun to watch, though, especially for students of logic!) Uh, no. People can see how damaging unions are -- well, except for people who are in unions. Public employee unions are the worst of all. Isn't that just about the same thing I said? I can see a lot of the problems with unions, even the issues I previously mentioned that were poisoning my own union. I just don't think it's rational to generalize about ALL unions (I belong to a skilled trade, not a public employee union; I can empathize with your feelings on this.). That is like saying that everyone who has a gun is a criminal. Please don't lump me in with, say, the teacher's unions and such. I'm merely stating my own position. People who want to continually cry about it here in thread after thread are beating a dead horse. It in no way affects me (as if I'd be brow-beaten into submission and quitting the union so I can go work for minimum wage while all you white-collar workers pocket all the savings). How's THAT for generalization? I've seen the results of my non-union counterparts in action. Sure, they get it done a little cheaper... maybe even a little faster. That's fine, because then I can come along behind them and either finish what they couldn't finish, or redo it so it's right. Unfortunately for them, one thing they lack is a good reputation. Not meant to sound like a rant, BTW. I'm just saying I can see good points on both sides. It's not as simple as black and white. The idea that unions "are not needed" is short-sighted and preposterous.   I think you are mixing up a trade guild or trade union with a labor union. Labor unions are parasitic. witness the UAW. here is a union that keeps drug addicts and alcoholics employeed at ridiculously high wages (100k a year for a FORK LIFT DRIVER!) trade unions are another story. Machinests, carpenters, masons have marketable job skills. IE someone off the street can't come in and learn their job in a week or a month. their skills come from exstensive training or experiance (like mine).

Exactly right, but some people insist on lumping ALL unions together as one bad entity, which makes about as much sense as blaming honest gun owners for all the criminal shootings out there. The bad thing about this kind of talk is that there are some neutral readers who my draw the wrong conclusions based on incomplete or distorted information. Thanks, you've helped support my point.

Quoted: Quoted: What the very few of us who see both sides often have to say is that unions are a necessary evil, and no more bad than industry as a whole is good. They are what they are, flawed, and corrupt, but still better than a world with all the power in the hands of business. Without Unions, all the power still wouldn't be in the hands of business. Have you ever heard of "quitting"? Back in the old days, you couldn't just quit and leave because you probably owed money to the company store that you were bound to pay back. The laws of the time supported that. But they don't anymore.

Which goes back to my suggestion  (rebuffed with a personal attack) that he look into all the events at the time of the union formation and the 'robber barrons'.

The solution wasn't unions, it was an end to the government enabled corruption financed by SOME business owners that prevented true compeitition.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: (Is it just me, or does it seem like the only people that have a problem with unions are the ones that aren't in them? Kinda like the only people who are anti-gun are the ones who don't have them. Serves to remove a lot of credibility from the argument. Fun to watch, though, especially for students of logic!) Uh, no. People can see how damaging unions are -- well, except for people who are in unions. Public employee unions are the worst of all. Isn't that just about the same thing I said? I can see a lot of the problems with unions, even the issues I previously mentioned that were poisoning my own union. I just don't think it's rational to generalize about ALL unions (I belong to a skilled trade, not a public employee union; I can empathize with your feelings on this.). That is like saying that everyone who has a gun is a criminal. Please don't lump me in with, say, the teacher's unions and such. I'm merely stating my own position. People who want to continually cry about it here in thread after thread are beating a dead horse. It in no way affects me (as if I'd be brow-beaten into submission and quitting the union so I can go work for minimum wage while all you white-collar workers pocket all the savings). How's THAT for generalization? I've seen the results of my non-union counterparts in action. Sure, they get it done a little cheaper... maybe even a little faster. That's fine, because then I can come along behind them and either finish what they couldn't finish, or redo it so it's right. Unfortunately for them, one thing they lack is a good reputation. Not meant to sound like a rant, BTW. I'm just saying I can see good points on both sides. It's not as simple as black and white. The idea that unions "are not needed" is short-sighted and preposterous.   I think you are mixing up a trade guild or trade union with a labor union. Labor unions are parasitic. witness the UAW. here is a union that keeps drug addicts and alcoholics employeed at ridiculously high wages (100k a year for a FORK LIFT DRIVER!) trade unions are another story. Machinests, carpenters, masons have marketable job skills. IE someone off the street can't come in and learn their job in a week or a month. their skills come from exstensive training or experiance (like mine).

Agreed, there are different classificaitons of unions, which is why I lumped government unions in as the worst. Next are the unskilled worker unions, followed by the semi-skilled unions. The best have to be the skilled trade unions, because many of them understand the "no work for my employer / no work for me" cause and effect relationship. Hell, I know trade union member that have been listening to rush limbaugh longer than I have. They're just in the union because they have to be in order to do the job they want to do in their area. They dislike many of the stupid union rules and the political pandering they do to their members.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: It's your friend, too. Read 'The myth of the robber barron'  and get some context as to ALL the reasons why unions were put in place, instead of just pontificating on what you think you know. You see the same mentality here that cuased the unions to be formed: People fear their jobs will be taken by someone who will work for less (in the post civil war days it had a lot to do with racism by those who feared blacks would come up from the south and do their jobs for less). That caused a lot of organizing - just as 'selfish' as those who owned the companies. There's no "What I think I know", jackass, and I'm not pontificating. Get called on your rambling, and call me a jackass. Guess you don't like it when people question your bullshit. I'm not responding to you anymore. BTW, how do I find out which mods are online? I want to report a CoC violation.

You tell me I'm pontificating, and imply I don't know what I'm talking about, and I call you a jackass. It's mutual disrespect. I don't like being told I don't know what I'm talking about. In the real world, as grown men talking to each other, I'd tell you the same face to face. You think you know more about history? Fine. Imply I'm full of shit and I'll call you a jackass. COC or no COC, I tell people what I think of them.

And, how does Mr. Highroad handle it? You cry to the mods.

Wanna report a REAL offense? Howabout this. You're a fucking crybaby. Tell the mods I said so.

Quoted: You tell me I'm pontificating, and imply I don't know what I'm talking about, and I call you a jackass. It's mutual disrespect. I don't like being told I don't know what I'm talking about. In the real world, as grown men talking to each other, I'd tell you the same face to face. You think you know more about history? Fine. Imply I'm full of shit and I'll call you a jackass. COC or no COC, I tell people what I think of them. And, how does Mr. Highroad handle it? You cry to the mods. Wanna report a REAL offense? Howabout this. You're a fucking crybaby. Tell the mods I said so.

You've been wrong on almost all the union related part of this discussion, but you're dead on in those regards!

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: It's your friend, too. Read 'The myth of the robber barron'  and get some context as to ALL the reasons why unions were put in place, instead of just pontificating on what you think you know. You see the same mentality here that cuased the unions to be formed: People fear their jobs will be taken by someone who will work for less (in the post civil war days it had a lot to do with racism by those who feared blacks would come up from the south and do their jobs for less). That caused a lot of organizing - just as 'selfish' as those who owned the companies. There's no "What I think I know", jackass, and I'm not pontificating. Get called on your rambling, and call me a jackass. Guess you don't like it when people question your bullshit. I'm not responding to you anymore. BTW, how do I find out which mods are online? I want to report a CoC violation. You tell me I'm pontificating, and imply I don't know what I'm talking about, and I call you a jackass. It's mutual disrespect. I don't like being told I don't know what I'm talking about. In the real world, as grown men talking to each other, I'd tell you the same face to face. You think you know more about history? Fine. Imply I'm full of shit and I'll call you a jackass. COC or no COC, I tell people what I think of them. And, how does Mr. Highroad handle it? You cry to the mods. Wanna report a REAL offense? Howabout this. You're a fucking crybaby. Tell the mods I said so.

No, it's the diffence of being able to take criticism and launcing a personal attack. You're a freaking hothod who can't stand the implication that there's something you just might not now. How freaking awful! Somebody says I might be unaware of something! That can't be! I'm swingset and I'm all knowing! If I post something, it's as if it's from the lips of God! I can call people a jackass and then call them a fucking crybaby when they complain about me calling them a jackass!

You're a real piece of work. How insecure you must be to lash out like a freaking child the moment someone dares question the bible according to swingset.

Grow the hell up.

I'll share my union experience.  I was employed at a union job for several months.

They handed me papers to fill out the union papers, and I asked "Do I have to join the union, what do they do for me?"
"Well, they help get you better pay.... blah... blah... blah... but you don't have to join if you don't want to."

I bought her bullshit, and I joined the union.  My first paycheck was something like $3.42 after union dues.

I made $5.15/hour... minimum wage.  I had to be retarded (I was 14).  I was actually in a union, paying a chunk of my paycheck, and was making minimum wage.

There's proof that unions are bullshit.  Though, I was smart enough to find a real job, where I wasn't in a union.  Though, the union I was in was pointless, and took money for absolutely no reason whatsoever... the other type of unions are worse.

The other type of unions hold corporations by the balls and squeeze them into submission, i.e. the UAW with GM.

Quoted: Quoted: You tell me I'm pontificating, and imply I don't know what I'm talking about, and I call you a jackass. It's mutual disrespect. I don't like being told I don't know what I'm talking about. In the real world, as grown men talking to each other, I'd tell you the same face to face. You think you know more about history? Fine. Imply I'm full of shit and I'll call you a jackass. COC or no COC, I tell people what I think of them. And, how does Mr. Highroad handle it? You cry to the mods. Wanna report a REAL offense? Howabout this. You're a fucking crybaby. Tell the mods I said so. You've been wrong on almost all the union related part of this discussion, but you're dead on in those regards!

Yeah, such a crybaby to think that a member here should follow this rule:

6.) Repeatedly attacking or insulting a person in an effort to elicit a negative response. You have a right to disagree, but please do so in a respectful manner.

See the edit on my post where I mentioned the mods? I originally made some remarks then edited them out with the mod comment. I held off until I saw how swingset would respond. Now he's come back and decided he wants to be a jerk becuase I dared question his wisdom (gasp). Since he's decided he wants to be a jerk, I had to IM a mod to take care of it.

Why? Not because I'm crybaby. But because I don't want MY thread locked because he can't control his temper.

He can't obey the rules. Tough shit for him.

Quoted: Quoted: Capitalism relies upon the laws of supply and demand. This includes labor commodities. Too funny.... devalue skilled labor to be just another commodity.... Organized labor agreements benefit both the employer and the employee.    They also prevent the employer from discarding employees as if they were just another raw material in the manufacturing process.   Unions are no threat to capitalism.   The labor machine of the USSR collapsed while capitalism thrived over the past 50 years in union with organized labor.  "Free" trade has been the downfall.

You talk about keeping a company from discarding labor like it's a good thing!

What if that labor has aging skills, below market performance, and significantly above market costs. Markets are made and lost in weeks and months now. Unions developed when markets came and went in years and decades. Meanwhile, dare a company attempt to upgrade the labor skills, the union will block it with things like refusal to change job classifications, certification requirements, etc...

Unions do nothing but put significant strategic control over a company into the hands of barely literate people who might have the collective education on an entire line that a single senior vice president of a division has as an individual.

Well, to an educated business management major who is able to see labor for what it is, you are nothing more than a functionary who performs a service. Unfortunately, laborers cannot see this, generally because they are unable to abstract themselves from their identity and ego long enough to understand the role of labor in a commercial entity. This comes from, repeat after me.... education.

Why does the CEO make $20 million? Because he's probably got three MBAs and has spent 1/4 of his life studying business process, systems, markets, etc... the rest comes from experience and value-add. If the CEO nets me $20 billion as a shareholder, his cost is insignificant. His function is also very difficult to replace, with there being probably less than 10,000 people in the whole world who know how to really pull off a Jack Welch/GE.

Meanwhile, there are billions of people who can do what you do with your hands. Granted, your apprenticeship may take a couple of months, but if the company loses you, the shareholders aren't going to cry a river. You'll be very easily replaced in a matter of hours.

However, if you have an education and skills to differentiate you from your labor competition, the guy next to you on the line, it won't matter if a company discards you. You'll have plenty of opportunity to work for someone else.

personal attacks, conduct code violations, disruption, etc, etc