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Posted: 4/10/2006 5:29:41 PM EDT
I'm just curious how the illegal aliens think they have the same rights as US citizens?
Link Posted: 4/10/2006 5:30:41 PM EDT
Wishful thinking maybe?
Link Posted: 4/10/2006 5:32:03 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/10/2006 5:33:18 PM EDT by NimmerMehr]
Well... all honesty, your rights are what you make others respect. Rights are taken, not given. King George did not, upon recieving the Declaration of Indepence, reply "You'r right! " and pull out of North America.

Just playing Illegal's* Advocate

* -> Devil's

Link Posted: 4/10/2006 5:32:55 PM EDT
I've wondered this myself. They have human rights. But no rights this country provides. But how does the constitution provide for it? Does it say any man/human/etc or does it specify citizens?

-Foxxz
Link Posted: 4/10/2006 5:33:50 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/10/2006 5:36:14 PM EDT by Midnight-Sniper]
They have the right to be bitch-slapped back home!

­



<in an apologetic tone> Just kidding!
Link Posted: 4/10/2006 5:34:08 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Foxxz:
I've wondered this myself. They have human rights. But no rights this country provides Protects. But how does the constitution provide for it? Does it say any man/human/etc or does it specify citizens?

-Foxxz



THe goverment doesn't give us rights it protects the rights we already have.
Link Posted: 4/10/2006 5:39:14 PM EDT
What right do they have receiving medical,social services,,ect ect ect
NONE,,they have the right to get the F outa here
Link Posted: 4/10/2006 5:42:14 PM EDT
The answer to that is a "No"; that's why they are called "Illegal Aliens" to begin with.

I short words; they need to get their sorry rears back to the other side of the fence and wait in line like everybody else.
Link Posted: 4/10/2006 5:44:12 PM EDT
You should all be ashamed of yourselves!!!

How DARE you deny the constitutional rights of Non-American Americans???

Link Posted: 4/10/2006 5:48:47 PM EDT
You do not have a right to immigrate into any country you want.
Link Posted: 4/10/2006 5:50:42 PM EDT
they think they own the country...they are not the US, they cannot vote, they are not having their rights violated...they HAVE NO RIGHTS....welcome to the end of our country as you know it.....they are taking over.

300,000 illegals in DC on a protest, and we do nothing about it.

Imagine if there was 300,000 illegal Saudi Arabians or Egyptians there, imagine what the media uproar would be over that? Wouldnt THAT be a security risk? Why arnt these Mexicans?

Wheres the Guard when you need them.
Link Posted: 4/10/2006 5:50:48 PM EDT
They don't...

Isn't it funny how the same people that were calling us Imperialist are so quick to forward our Constitutional rights to every despot POS of earth. Especially the ones we're at odds with...all the while doing everything under the sun to take more and more rights away from red blooded Americans
Link Posted: 4/10/2006 6:00:29 PM EDT

Originally Posted By mstennes:
I'm just curious how the illegal aliens think they have the same rights as US citizens?



It has been argued that since rights are God-granted (and merely recognized by the Constitution), they apply to EVERY person, regardless of national origin. In the few parts of the Constition that apply only to U.S. citizens, it explicitly says so, by calling them "citizens" (such as where it limits which persons can become President).

So, by this arguement, if a foreigner is in the United States, any rights spelled out in the Constitution that refer to "persons" or "people" apply to him (and any rights that refer to "citizens" do not).
Link Posted: 4/10/2006 6:01:57 PM EDT
We hold these truths to be self evident that that ALL men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights...

What you guys are speaking of are priveleges of American citizenship being extended to non-citizens. Not rights. They are born with the same rights as you and I.

I am all for immigration through legal channels. My relatives 3 generations ago on my dad's side did just that at Ellis Island. My mom's side has been here since the early 1700's.. That being said. I do feel for these people that want a better life. Face it. Where would you rather be? We take this country for granted. Poor people are risking life and limb to cross hostile terrain, etc just to get here. I'd say that speaks well for us and our country. We are the beacon of freedom and opportunity. This is a story with two sides.
Link Posted: 4/10/2006 6:02:03 PM EDT
Fucking embarrasing, a foreign, 12 million man army marches on the streets of the United States, waiving their nations flags and we do nothing.
Link Posted: 4/10/2006 6:03:46 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Skibane:
It has been argued that since rights are God-granted (and merely recognized by the Constitution), they apply to EVERY person, regardless of national origin. In the few parts of the Constition that apply only to U.S. citizens, it explicitly says so, by calling them "citizens" (such as where it limits which persons can become President).

So, by this arguement, if a foreigner is in the United States, any rights spelled out in the Constitution that refer to "persons" or "people" apply to him (and any rights that refer to "citizens" do not).



Yep. People in our country have almost the same rights citizens have, whether they are here on vacation, illegally, or otherwise.

Don't argue stupid points- the Bill of Rights specifies generally what they have, across the country. Maybe some states have other rights codified into law.

They don't have the "right to a good job" or a "right to good health care" , etc etc.


Link Posted: 4/10/2006 6:04:56 PM EDT
pussy Liberal supporters
Link Posted: 4/10/2006 6:05:22 PM EDT

Originally Posted By mstennes:
I'm just curious how the illegal aliens think they have the same rights as US citizens?



Democraps
Link Posted: 4/10/2006 6:07:47 PM EDT
Because they know if they show up in mass, no one will do anything about it. Strength in numbers.
Link Posted: 4/10/2006 6:24:37 PM EDT
Uhm, how is it they don't have rights? Last I read the constitution, it guaranteed no rights. Rather, it said some rights existed and the .gov can't infringe upon them. It made no differentiation about whether they applied to citizens or not.
Link Posted: 4/10/2006 6:28:47 PM EDT
When they show up in mass it's a perfect time for mass deportation. All of the appathy is going to end up burning us big time.
Link Posted: 4/10/2006 6:31:55 PM EDT
You have to distinguish between the Declaration of Independence which preceeded the Constitution and hence, preceeded the establishment of the "united states government" and the Constitution.

The first document laid out the theoretical legal and moral justification for the colonies and colonists to revolt against the crown and their previously sworn oaths of allegiance to the same. It could not harken to the positivistic closed system of laws, which all pointed to rights coming from the king as grants... so they HAD to invoke higher laws than whatever whim came from King or Parlament.... hence the invocation of HUMAN rights, natural law which is owed to human beings as human beings but only recognized by governments, not created ex nihilo.

So the Declaration posits or affirms that ALL MEN are created equal, endowed by their creator with certain rights, among which are the rights to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness..... i.e. the Mexicans, Chinese, Russians, Iraqis, Iranians, you name it, have - by virtue of being human - certain INALIENABLE human rights.

But they are self-evidently NOT Americans. The Constitution and our system of laws that flow positively from this government are POSITIVE LAW, not NATURAL LAW.

The Constitution is based ON the Declaration but is more restrictive - it's about man-made legislation, not what is owed to all human beings BECAUSE they're human beings.

So for example; all human beings have the right to life, liberty....but under the Constitution blacks were considered 3/5th human....obviously a contradiction. But from the strictly closed constitutional framework there was nothing to be done except pass an amendment outlawing slavery.

Women didn't have the right to vote either.... again, the only recourse within a legal system such as ours was amendments to 'right the wrong'.... thanks to the Declaration we could know that blacks were human and hence our equals and women ought to vote....but to be legal a super majority had to vote to accept this as so.

In our day and age, while it's still true that Chinese have inalienable (albeit not recognized by the Commies) human rights, they don't have American civil rights.

Illegal immigrants have HUMAN rights, but not a presumption to have American civil rights. Otherwise what distiction would there be between a citizen and a non-citizen other than the fact that citizens have all the burdens and no benefits?
Link Posted: 4/10/2006 6:40:42 PM EDT
The rights the illegals want are the rights to YOUR MONEY AND PROPERTY. If they cannot obtain them outright, they will have Democrap politicians take your stuff away and give it to them.

Just try to not pay that portion of taxes used to support illegals and see how long it takes the men with shiny badges and handcuffs to show up.
Link Posted: 4/10/2006 6:45:24 PM EDT

Originally Posted By mstennes:
I'm just curious how the illegal aliens think they have the same rights as US citizens?



They don't.

They have the right to stay alive long enough to return them-that's it.

HH
Link Posted: 4/10/2006 7:01:55 PM EDT
All men, everywhere, are born with the same inalienable rights. The Constitution doesn't give you shit, it just limits what the government can take from you. Life, Liberty, the Persuit of Happiness, the right to keep and bear arms, free speech, freedom of religion, fredom to be secure in your property, etc. They have those rights the moment they're born, just like you and me.

Illegal Aliens having natural rights is not a problem. The problem lies in the fact that they receive our benefits. They have no right as a non-citizen to drive a car on our roads, vote, get our welfare, use our healthcare, take our jobs, etc. These are benefits we are giving them, which we can take away without removing their basic rights.
Link Posted: 4/10/2006 7:06:49 PM EDT
I think there is a fundamental misunderstanding in this country as to what constitutes rights. To start off, there are the natural rights of life (and the means to defend it), liberty, and property (in the classic view). From those, other rights are derived such as the rights to be left alone, to worship (or not) as a person sees fit, speech, and others. These rights are inherent to humans of all types and cannot be taken away. They are not "granted" in any way, shape, or form. Even illegal aliens have these basic rights.

Then we get to the "rights" that have been granted by the government. These are really just privileges that we get by virtue of being american citizens. I like to think of them as "perks". These are such "rights" as "a right to healthcare", a "right to education", "a right to housing", "a right to income", and a host of other "rights" made up through liberal feel-good legislation. Illegals do not have these "rights". American's do not even have them, as they are not "rights".

Some say that America was founded on immigration. On this I agree. The vast majority of Americans have roots tracing back to people who came here to seek a better life. There is nothing wrong with that. In fact, I think it is one of the strengths of our country. Many people, from different backgrounds all adding their own "spice" to that ethereal thing that is being an American. Most of my family came here from various parts of Europe in the late 19th and early 20th centuries.

However, America is a different place than it was back then. 100 years ago, immigrants had to brave vast oceans to get here. It was a tough journey, and many didn't make it. When they got here, they found the "land of opportunity" but they soon realized they would have to work their asses off to utilize that opportunity. Some succeeded marvelously, some didn't, but their success was mostly based on their own hard work and ingenuity. There was no welfare, no food stamps, no unemployment insurance, or none of the other government services, or "rights" as some see them. Today, with very little effort, a person can sneak in and give it a shot, but if it doesn't work out, there is always a safety net provided by the government, and funded by the taxpayers.

This cannot work. It is impossible to have widespread government support and massive immigration. The system cannot support the numbers. How long would you allow a buddy of yours to live in your house, and eat your food, and run up your phone bill before you tell him to get the hell out?

Unfortunately, those in power are too shortsighted to see this and will continue to do whatever it takes to get elected, even if it means doing things that will eventually destroy the country.
Link Posted: 4/10/2006 7:13:51 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Skibane:

Originally Posted By mstennes:
I'm just curious how the illegal aliens think they have the same rights as US citizens?



It has been argued that since rights are God-granted (and merely recognized by the Constitution), they apply to EVERY person, regardless of national origin. In the few parts of the Constition that apply only to U.S. citizens, it explicitly says so, by calling them "citizens" (such as where it limits which persons can become President).

So, by this arguement, if a foreigner is in the United States, any rights spelled out in the Constitution that refer to "persons" or "people" apply to him (and any rights that refer to "citizens" do not).



True, and I'll not argue about rights as they describe life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness, but voting is a national right and is not God given.
Link Posted: 4/10/2006 8:48:03 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/10/2006 11:23:10 PM EDT by Skibane]

Originally Posted By Schulze:
but voting is a national right and is not God given.



Agreed. While freedom may be a universal right, expressing that freedom by voting isn't.

Note that the Constitution also recognizes this distinction, by invoking the C-word:

AMENDMENT XV

Section 1.

The right of citizens to vote shall not be denied or abridged by the United States or any State on account of race, color, or previous condition of servitude.

AMENDMENT XIX

The right of citizens to vote shall not be denied or abridged by the United States or any State on account of sex.

AMENDMENT XXIV

The right of citizens of the United States to vote in any primary or other election for President or Vice President, for electors for President or Vice President, or for Senator or Representative in Congress, shall not be denied or abridged by the United States or any State by reason of failure to pay poll tax or any other tax.
Link Posted: 4/10/2006 11:01:05 PM EDT
If they think they can just BULLY their way into the country then I still say we have a right to know what the bag limit is.

Link Posted: 4/10/2006 11:08:45 PM EDT
Real rights are god given, they are not something bestowed upon you by the government.
Link Posted: 4/10/2006 11:34:34 PM EDT
MOB RULE , communist media assisted, republicrat supported , REVOLUTION !!

this is merely the Politicians & the media changeing the definition of right & wrong to get votes/cheap labor


does anyone really think that if the Govt. wanted to shut down the boarder , -w- NAT GUARD , that it could not happen within a week


ill bet a team of Govt. cops would be on the scene within 2 hrs. if a Min. Man "threatened" a group of illegals with a rifle
Link Posted: 4/10/2006 11:39:29 PM EDT
Just remember folks....

Without socialism, they wouldn't want to be here.
Link Posted: 4/11/2006 12:14:42 AM EDT
If you ask me, the INS should be at all these rallies in full force deporting all their slimy criminal asses. I can see the buses filling up real fast.

Mexico or BUST! Or Both!
Link Posted: 4/11/2006 4:42:29 AM EDT

Originally Posted By OFFascist:
Real rights are god given, they are not something bestowed upon you by the government.



Which begs the question - what about those people who don't believe in god? Do they have any place to demand rights?
Link Posted: 4/11/2006 4:45:05 AM EDT
Like all other criminals....They have the right to remain silent
Link Posted: 4/11/2006 4:52:17 AM EDT
So one of the points of all the rallys was to show US what it would be like without all the illegal immigrant labor doing the jobs that Americans supposedly don't want to do.

What happened ? The same shit,the hard working people that make this country work,went to work,while the illegal aliens protested.The country didn't fall apart...

I realy like how all the handlers told the Mexican nationals to start waving US flags instead of Mexican flags in the hopes that it would endear the US to thier plight.With the help of the media,it most likely worked on all the lemings that can't distinguish illegal immigrants from legal immigrants.
Link Posted: 4/11/2006 5:01:36 AM EDT
i guess I sould have been more specific, I know they human rights. Where does it say they have the same right to services that United States citizens should get? Shit you cant even ask them if their illegal. I agree their here arrest their ass's. Why cant we treat them the way their country treats us? Why do we turn our backs on the immigrats that came here from other countrys, I mean they have to go through hoops to get here wait years, fuck if your from Mexico thry want to be moved to the front of the line. Hell they get services our own citizens cant get. What the fuck is wrong here? Why are we gving them preferantial treatment??? Where are we actually on the immigration bill?
Link Posted: 4/11/2006 5:15:00 AM EDT
This was already covered ad nauseam in this thread.

In short, the plain text of the Bill of Rights (using "people" rather than "citizen"), and an express ruling of the Supreme Court, leave no doubt that illegal aliens are protected by the Bill of Rights, to the extent incorporated against the States via the Equal Protection Clause of the Fourteenth Amendment.

The Second Amendment says as much by using the word "people" instead of citizen (viz. Art 1, Section 21 of the Pennsylvania state constitution, which uses the word "citizen").

Note that the above does not cover "rights" not enumerated in the Bill of Rights (e.g. the right to vote per Amendment 15).

But the short answer is that illegal immigrants have many rights under our Constitution. As it should be ... the Bill of Rights was meant as a restriction on the "rights" of the .gov, not the people (regardless of citizenship).
Link Posted: 4/11/2006 5:19:57 AM EDT

Originally Posted By mstennes:
i guess I sould have been more specific, I know they human rights. Where does it say they have the same right to services that United States citizens should get? Shit you cant even ask them if their illegal.



It doesn't. The Constitution is quite specific about which rights are granted to the people (right to arms) and those which are granted to citizens (e.g. voting).


Originally Posted By mstennes:
What the fuck is wrong here? Why are we gving them preferantial treatment??? Where are we actually on the immigration bill?



The problem is that we have elected officials who are pandering to get votes. We also have businesses that will employ illegal aliens just to make a buck (i.e. labor arbitrage). Neither of the foregoing give two hoots about our Constitution, just votes and money.

I walked by the "protest" in Love Park (Philadelphia) yesterday. Lots of foreign flags (WTF? If you want to bring more people into the country legally, why wave a foreign flag?), t-shirts with "right to freedom and the pursuit of happiness", and people wearing the US flag.

Link Posted: 4/11/2006 6:05:27 AM EDT

Originally Posted By jthuang:
I walked by the "protest" in Love Park (Philadelphia) yesterday. Lots of foreign flags (WTF? If you want to bring more people into the country legally, why wave a foreign flag?), t-shirts with "right to freedom and the pursuit of happiness", and people wearing the US flag.




By doing such things they show what valuable citizens they will be.
Link Posted: 4/11/2006 6:07:28 AM EDT

Originally Posted By OFFascist:
Real rights are god given, they are not something bestowed upon you by the government.



[sarcasm] Right...which is why incarcerated felons have the right to keep and bear arms in prison.... [/sarcasm]




Even God-given rights are NOT absolute.



Link Posted: 4/11/2006 6:22:07 AM EDT

Originally Posted By garandman:

Originally Posted By OFFascist:
Real rights are god given, they are not something bestowed upon you by the government.



[sarcasm] Right...which is why incarcerated felons have the right to keep and bear arms in prison.... [/sarcasm]




Even God-given rights are NOT absolute.






I don't see the need for the sarcasm. Real rights are God given, but no one has said you can't give them up.
Link Posted: 4/11/2006 6:31:23 AM EDT

Originally Posted By mstennes:
I'm just curious how the illegal aliens think they have the same rights as US citizens?



Excellent question!

Current Doctrine is that illegals have the same Consitutional Rights as citizens except the right to vote and run for office.

My own philosphical point of view is a bit more narrow regarding Constitutional Rights. ie. The Bill of Rights applies only to Citizens and to a limited degree to lawful US Residents. Illegals have no rights. Also in regards to priviledges (such as driver licenses, fishing licenses, education, welfare, medical care, etc.) Illegals should NOT be allowed access to such priviledges.

The real thorny point over illegal immigration, is that currently if a child is born within the borders of the United States (even though their parents may be here illegally): the child is automatically granted US Citizenship.

This is problematical because once a child is born to illegals, the US is NOT going to deport the parents. So in effect simply by having a Child within the United States, an illegal is automatically granted a "green card".

The child has all of the same Rights and priviledges as anyone else, including public education, etc.

This is the REAL problem.


Other countries such as Japan do NOT automatically confer citizenship on a child born within their borders unless the parents are Japanese Citizens.

Hundreds of Thousands of people spend YEARS waiting, filling out paper work, and jumping through all kinds of hoops to LEGALLY get a Green Card.

Is it fair to these people if illegal immigrants are rewarded by BREAKING the law, whereas those who OBEY the law and play within the Rules are punished?


Until our Bill of Rights is Ammended on how US Citizenship is granted, all other laws on illegal immigration will only be a "band-aid" solution to the problem.
Link Posted: 4/11/2006 6:31:42 AM EDT
They are unlawfully invading out country.

They are unlawful combatants.

Send em to Gitmo.
Link Posted: 4/11/2006 6:41:16 AM EDT

Originally Posted By kingme22:
Fucking embarrasing, a foreign, 12 million man army marches on the streets of the United States, waiving their nations flags and we do nothing.



Exactly the problem with our country right now!
You think our forefathers would have let this shit happen??? hell no!
We are turning into France!!!!
And that frankly pisses me off!
Link Posted: 4/11/2006 6:45:53 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Schulze:

Originally Posted By garandman:

Originally Posted By OFFascist:
Real rights are god given, they are not something bestowed upon you by the government.



[sarcasm] Right...which is why incarcerated felons have the right to keep and bear arms in prison.... [/sarcasm]




Even God-given rights are NOT absolute.






I don't see the need for the sarcasm. Real rights are God given, but no one has said you can't give them up.



OFFascists argument actually says the invaders SHOULD have rights afforded to US citizens.

Its not a matter of giving them up. Its a matter of the US gov't need only observe the God given rights of US citizens. We can choose whther or not to recognize the God-given rights of guests and criminals.



[sarcasm] I always see the need for sarcasm [/sarcasm]

Link Posted: 4/11/2006 6:56:43 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/11/2006 6:59:34 AM EDT by Nozzleman]
The ACLU gave them the rights to be citizens if born here, albeit illegally. The right to seek welfare by restricting the legal status question. The right to emergency health care at our expense because they refuse to pay the bill. the right to carry foreign flags in parades DEMANDING more rights.
BTW, thw ACLU also protected the anti-immigration demonstrators protesting the march (small consolation).
Link Posted: 4/11/2006 7:17:43 AM EDT

Originally Posted By garandman:

Originally Posted By OFFascist:
Real rights are god given, they are not something bestowed upon you by the government.



[sarcasm] Right...which is why incarcerated felons have the right to keep and bear arms in prison.... [/sarcasm]




Even God-given rights are NOT absolute.






That is false for several reasons.

I see everyone referencing God when referring to natural rights, which is fine, (I agree) but I think it's easier to say that natural rights are something you're born with, not something that is provided or abridged by the government.

The 2nd amendment has never been interpreted as an individual right, to date.

Felons are punished by being denied their rights. Occassionally it involves denying some of their right to property (fines, seizure). Sometimes their right to liberty (imprisionment, RTKBA, etc). In most extreme cases, they are denied their right to life as well (execution).
Link Posted: 4/11/2006 7:23:58 AM EDT
Please stop calling them illegal aliens, they are illegal INVADERS for Christ sake!
Link Posted: 4/11/2006 7:26:29 AM EDT

Originally Posted By mstennes: I'm just curious how the illegal aliens think they have the same rights as US citizens?
They don't have rights, they have 'gubment benefits. You guys should visit a local or state run Socialist 'Gubment Welfare office and you will freak out at how many illegals are waiting in line for handouts alongside the bums who were born in the USA.
Link Posted: 4/11/2006 7:26:54 AM EDT

Originally Posted By HEADACHE:
You think our forefathers would have let this shit happen??? hell no!



Our forefathers wouldn't have had to worry about this since America in their time was still a Republic. The Democrats don't have to push us into socialism, we're already there. The Republicans are equally as bad, they just spend our money in different areas. So long as we're socialist and handing out "from each according to their ability and to each according to their need" we'll continue to have illegal aliens.
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