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Posted: 4/10/2006 11:48:37 AM EDT
I see that alot of people disagree on who is any good (Yeager and Suarez come to mind as not well thought of ones) when it comes to training but do we all agree on any one single school being very good?
Link Posted: 4/10/2006 11:50:31 AM EDT
Blackwater? I dunno, never been to a carbine class.
Link Posted: 4/10/2006 12:04:45 PM EDT
Link Posted: 4/10/2006 12:06:53 PM EDT
In PA, FIRE Institute offers an excellent training class for carbines. Several ARFcom folks have attended and written reviews, myself included. This is a fantastic place to get started.

I also have positive experience with Progressive Force Concepts. Very good instructors as well.

Check out the Tactics and training forum. Tony_F, the T&T mod, assists at FIRE.
Link Posted: 4/10/2006 12:07:04 PM EDT
tag for future, I'm hoping to get training in the next couple of years.

Yeah, I know, "why the rush?"
Link Posted: 4/10/2006 12:12:44 PM EDT
I think the opinion is pretty universal that Pat Rogers' courses are grade A, though that might be a little more advanced than you are looking for.

Futuristic
Link Posted: 4/10/2006 12:21:05 PM EDT
Link Posted: 4/10/2006 12:24:21 PM EDT


Going to www.fireinstitute.org in June for their basic carbine.. Will let you know how it is. Will be my first one!
Link Posted: 4/10/2006 12:24:44 PM EDT
I've done BW and Pat Goodal, both are excellent.

Bomber
Link Posted: 4/10/2006 12:29:34 PM EDT

Originally Posted By texastactical:
I talked to a shooter a couple of weeks ago that attended a Pat Rogers course and he sounded less than impressed...bored even. I guess it all depends on where you are at skill wise.



how dare you speak ill of Darth Pat.
He’s great if you can kill people and you have no fear or concern of prosecution.

the best... I vote Clint Smith
Link Posted: 4/10/2006 12:40:33 PM EDT

Originally Posted By SP10:
In PA, FIRE Institute offers an excellent training class for carbines. Several ARFcom folks have attended and written reviews, myself included. This is a fantastic place to get started.



+1 on FIRE, their instructors are vey good at getting the concept across.

I've never heard of a bad word about Thunder Ranch (Clint Smith) but I've not been there.
Link Posted: 4/10/2006 12:44:42 PM EDT
I attended urban rifle at Thunder Ranch when it was still in Texas, and in my opinion the instruction was very good.

Now that the school has moved to Oregon, class sizes are supposed to be much smaller, so if anything the personal level of instruction should be better.
Link Posted: 4/10/2006 6:00:38 PM EDT

Originally Posted By WindGapAR15:
I see that alot of people disagree on who is any good (Yeager and Suarez come to mind as not well thought of ones) when it comes to training but do we all agree on any one single school being very good?



What's the word on Yeager? Just curious.
Link Posted: 4/10/2006 6:10:24 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Jeep29:

Originally Posted By WindGapAR15:
I see that alot of people disagree on who is any good (Yeager and Suarez come to mind as not well thought of ones) when it comes to training but do we all agree on any one single school being very good?



What's the word on Yeager? Just curious.



I have taken two courses from Tactical Response, one of which was taught by Yeager. I had great experiences both times, and will be going back for a third in October. A member here (USMC03) is an instructor for Tactical Response, and he is an incredibly helpful guy who is more than willing to share his knowledge on gear and training with all of us.
Link Posted: 4/10/2006 6:13:33 PM EDT
Link Posted: 4/10/2006 6:29:55 PM EDT
Spent 3 days at Blackwater last year (in a class with Aimless) and enjoyed it enough that I'm going back again this fall for a 5 day class.

I recently took a class from Dave Pennington and got a hell of a lot of training for my money. I'm hoping he'll offer more classes next year.
Link Posted: 4/10/2006 7:07:03 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Hoplophile:
Spent 3 days at Blackwater last year (in a class with Aimless) and enjoyed it enough that I'm going back again this fall for a 5 day class.

I recently took a class from Dave Pennington and got a hell of a lot of training for my money. I'm hoping he'll offer more classes next year.



last time i looked at BW they would not let civvies take advanced classes.
has that changed?
Link Posted: 4/10/2006 7:30:30 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/10/2006 7:37:14 PM EDT by Aimless]
Link Posted: 4/10/2006 7:35:36 PM EDT
Louis Awerbuck also offers excellent carbine classes. He uses some rather unconventional methods that force you to consider some aspects you may not have otherwise.
Link Posted: 4/11/2006 5:13:47 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/11/2006 5:14:54 AM EDT by hk940]
that's good to know.
I guess I just had “what if” burned into me early in my training and can’t see much value to “shoot em’ all” training.

The way it was explained to me was to put myself in a third person perspective like a witness or a cop and “justify” my actions. I know in Iraq as a contractor I can just about do anything I want to and be covered. In America if I shoot someone on the street the cops are going to want to know why and crawl up my butt with a microscope to find out.

Witnesses will tell them what they think happened. Something like this… “I was on my way into the store and this guy was kind of in front of me and he walked up beside a car and another guy got out of the car and shot him.”

Or. “I was on my way into the store and this guy was kind of in front of me and he walked up beside a car and the guy in the car told him to “stop”, “drop the knife” the guy kept walking and the guy pulled out a gun and told him to stop again and then shot him.

With a witness one way you walk. The other you got to jail. That little phrase of warning makes all the difference in the world.
Link Posted: 4/11/2006 7:39:54 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/11/2006 8:01:34 AM EDT by AcidGambit]
Larry Vickers, Paul Howe, or Ken Hackathorn...
Clint Smith and Pat Rogers.

Jeff Gonzalez is supposed to be pretty good too, but I have no experience there.

Some people get all pissy about a class being too "basic." The basics are the foundation and a majority of the people need work on the basics. Lots of people want to do the sims (houses, cqb kind of shit) because its fun (and it is) but they fucking suck at the basics and get bad hits, fuck up their manual of arms, etc. I've taken a bunch of the advanced carbine (and pistol) classes... I still sign up for basic classes every year, it makes you better, and hell, it can't hurt... Hell, I take some of the same classes repeatedly.

FWIW: I have heard good things about Yeager, never met him, but I have heard good things about the guy.

ETA: Awerbuck is awsome too, I forgot to mention him.

But, the best by far is Ken Hackathorn, he is the tactical dali-lama.
Link Posted: 4/11/2006 8:08:15 AM EDT
Blackwater or Gun Site
Link Posted: 4/11/2006 10:24:33 AM EDT
Link Posted: 4/11/2006 10:58:39 AM EDT
Pat Rogers and Larry Mudgett I reccomend, from experience, without the slightest bit of hesitation. Gunsite has a fairly good POI, but it's not aggressive enough for my taste. Many would like their classes though.
Link Posted: 4/11/2006 11:34:51 AM EDT
Gunsite had threee level of carbine course, 223 Carbine fundimentals, 556 HSLD, and CTP carbine team tactics. After Pat Rogers left Gunsite, the CTp course have not been listed, and hopefully they will have the class open again.

I heard both good and bad about Suarez enough to stay away.

Thunder-ranch used to offer 3 and 5 dasy urban rifle when they are in Texas, but have changed to only 3 days only with reduced class size.

Pat Rogers EAG now offer some open courses, some of them you can sign up at the 10-8 Forums.
Link Posted: 4/11/2006 12:17:57 PM EDT
Tactical Response (Yeager' company)
Blackwater
ITTS ( Scott Reitz)


are 3 very good groups/trainers.

Paul Howe was ok.

I've done pistol work with Hackathorn, Vickers, Gonzalez, and others but havent had a chance to try their rifle stuff so no opinion there.
Link Posted: 4/11/2006 4:01:00 PM EDT

Originally Posted By thelastgunslinger:

Originally Posted By Jeep29:

Originally Posted By WindGapAR15:
I see that alot of people disagree on who is any good (Yeager and Suarez come to mind as not well thought of ones) when it comes to training but do we all agree on any one single school being very good?



What's the word on Yeager? Just curious.



I have taken two courses from Tactical Response, one of which was taught by Yeager. I had great experiences both times, and will be going back for a third in October. A member here (USMC03) is an instructor for Tactical Response, and he is an incredibly helpful guy who is more than willing to share his knowledge on gear and training with all of us.



I was just wondering about the "not well thought of". I've spoken with James Yeager many times and he always seemed like a knowlegable, professional guy who always made time to answer my stupid questions. Never took one of his classes though.
Link Posted: 4/11/2006 4:16:55 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Jeep29:
I was just wondering about the "not well thought of". I've spoken with James Yeager many times and he always seemed like a knowlegable, professional guy who always made time to answer my stupid questions. Never took one of his classes though.


Some people, 'Chairborne Rangers' and Internet Commandos aspiring to become mall ninjas so far as I've seen, feel that his performance as a contractor in Iraq was substandard. Specifically during incident where Jay Hunt was KIA.
Link Posted: 4/11/2006 5:22:38 PM EDT
tagged for later
Link Posted: 4/11/2006 5:33:00 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Hoplophile:
[Some people, 'Chairborne Rangers' and Internet Commandos aspiring to become mall ninjas so far as I've seen, feel that his performance as a contractor in Iraq was substandard. Specifically during incident where Jay Hunt was KIA.



Actually everyone that is a contractor thinks that too. So does everyone in the military. At least everyone I've talked to (which is a lot)

I'd stick with guys that know how to win fights. Guys like Pat Rogers, Clint Smith, and Ken Hackathorn.

Gunsite and Thunder Ranch have the best general courses IMO.

The question is not as easy as it may seem though. Where are you starting? How much money and time do you have? What is your end goal? What is your mission? etc. , etc.
Link Posted: 4/11/2006 5:36:09 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Jeep29:

Originally Posted By thelastgunslinger:

Originally Posted By Jeep29:

Originally Posted By WindGapAR15:
I see that alot of people disagree on who is any good (Yeager and Suarez come to mind as not well thought of ones) when it comes to training but do we all agree on any one single school being very good?



What's the word on Yeager? Just curious.



I have taken two courses from Tactical Response, one of which was taught by Yeager. I had great experiences both times, and will be going back for a third in October. A member here (USMC03) is an instructor for Tactical Response, and he is an incredibly helpful guy who is more than willing to share his knowledge on gear and training with all of us.



I was just wondering about the "not well thought of". I've spoken with James Yeager many times and he always seemed like a knowlegable, professional guy who always made time to answer my stupid questions. Never took one of his classes though.



You need thick skin in his classes because he gives you the Patton treatment. The general consensus from people who have taken his class is that it's a lot of fun and good training, and 80% sign up to go back.

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