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Posted: 4/9/2006 3:00:38 PM EDT
sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2006/04/08/MNGESI5U6C1.DTL


Whenever the president travels, security is a prime consideration. Motorcade routes are kept secret, and premature release of information about a presidential trip aboard one of the twin Air Force One planes can result in the Secret Service canceling a visit.

Thus, the Air Force reacted with alarm last week after The Chronicle told the Secret Service that a government document containing specific information about the anti-missile defenses on Air Force One and detailed interior maps of the two planes -- including the location of Secret Service agents within the planes -- was posted on the Web site of an Air Force base.

The document also shows the location where a terrorist armed with a high-caliber sniper rifle could detonate the tanks that supply oxygen to Air Force One's medical facility.

As of Friday, the document was still posted online. The Secret Service refused to comment on the document's release.

"It is not a good thing" for that information to be in the public domain, said Lt. Col Bruce Alexander, director of public affairs for the Air Mobility Command's 89th Airlift Wing, Andrews Air Force Base, which operates the presidential air transport fleet. "We are concerned with how it got there and how we can get it out. This affects operational security."

Information about Air Force One's anti-missile systems is considered particularly sensitive.

"Having information about a target's countermeasures does two things," said Daniel Goure of the Lexington Institute. "It gives you an opportunity to choose a different weapon and to choose a different attack style ... perhaps choosing to launch a salvo attack, or choose a missile that uses an active beam."

"It is tough enough for the Secret Service to do its job without this," said Leon Panetta, former chief of staff to President Bill Clinton, who now runs a public policy study center at California State University at Monterey Bay. "If I were still chief of staff, I would order the damned site (to) pull it down."

Link Posted: 4/9/2006 3:06:12 PM EDT
By all means, let's keep spreading the word....

Link Posted: 4/9/2006 3:10:52 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Wobblin-Goblin:
By all means, let's keep spreading the word....




Don't worry... whoever was running that server just got busted down to Bitch First Class, and I'm sure that alphabet-soup agencies are knocking on the doors associated with the IP addresses of whoever saw it.
Link Posted: 4/9/2006 3:18:59 PM EDT


The "Top Secret" AF One anti-missile defense systems.
Link Posted: 4/9/2006 3:24:02 PM EDT

The document also shows the location where a terrorist armed with a high-caliber sniper rifle could detonate the tanks that supply oxygen to Air Force One's medical facility.


So how long until we hear Fienstien or schumer claim we need to ban .50 cal again based on that?
Link Posted: 4/9/2006 3:29:03 PM EDT

Originally Posted By clement:

The document also shows the location where a terrorist armed with a high-caliber sniper rifle could detonate the tanks that supply oxygen to Air Force One's medical facility.


So how long until we hear Fienstien or schumer claim we need to ban .50 cal again based on that?



Man, those .50s are amazing! You can shoot a target a few feet in diameter, traveling at near sound speed, from six miles away!
Link Posted: 4/9/2006 3:31:14 PM EDT
You can also use the .50 BMG to take down the satellites the US Gov needs for communications.
This is why Iran has been buying so many from Steyr - they think they will be able to shoot down our satellites and our Air Force.
Link Posted: 4/9/2006 3:33:09 PM EDT
I hope the son of a bitch who posted that information gets caught and convicted of something with a nice long sentence.
Link Posted: 4/9/2006 3:39:11 PM EDT
Somebody in PA may get spanked, all webpages and information on our public webservers must be approved by PA, at least in the part of the USAF I work.
Link Posted: 4/9/2006 4:42:21 PM EDT

Originally Posted By thedoctors308:
You can also use the .50 BMG to take down the satellites the US Gov needs for communications.
This is why Iran has been buying so many from Steyr - they think they will be able to shoot down our satellites and our Air Force.



Uh, no. Satellites are far out of reach. C'mon. Let's get real!
Link Posted: 4/9/2006 4:49:50 PM EDT
I can't imagine the discussion.

So what should we update the site with this week?
I know! How about detail plans of Air Force One!

Dumbass.
Link Posted: 4/9/2006 4:52:09 PM EDT

Originally Posted By rtech:
www.boeing.com/defense-space/military/f15/images/c22-610-32.jpg

The "Top Secret" AF One anti-missile defense systems.



actually...

Link Posted: 4/9/2006 5:00:10 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Napoleon_Tanerite:

Originally Posted By rtech:
www.boeing.com/defense-space/military/f15/images/c22-610-32.jpg

The "Top Secret" AF One anti-missile defense systems.



actually...

www.bme.boun.edu.tr/bulten/resimler/ertas_5.jpg



AF1 doesn't travel with fighter escorts. In fact, On 9-11-01, the AF tried to provide escort but AF1 was traveling at max speed, nearly the speed of sound. The escorts had to use AB's to catch up and kept running out of fuel. The escorts requested that AF1 slow down so they could catch up and keep up. AF1 aircraft commander declined and continued to fly unescorted.
Link Posted: 4/9/2006 5:01:11 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Sukebe:

Originally Posted By Napoleon_Tanerite:

Originally Posted By rtech:
www.boeing.com/defense-space/military/f15/images/c22-610-32.jpg

The "Top Secret" AF One anti-missile defense systems.



actually...

www.bme.boun.edu.tr/bulten/resimler/ertas_5.jpg



AF1 doesn't travel with fighter escorts. In fact, On 9-11-01, the AF tried to provide escort but AF1 was traveling at max speed, nearly the speed of sound. The escorts had to use AB's to catch up and kept running out of fuel. The escorts requested that AF1 slow down so they could catch up and keep up. AF1 aircraft commander declined and continued to fly unescorted.



the raptors could keep up no sweat
Link Posted: 4/9/2006 5:03:37 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Sukebe:

Originally Posted By Napoleon_Tanerite:

Originally Posted By rtech:
www.boeing.com/defense-space/military/f15/images/c22-610-32.jpg

The "Top Secret" AF One anti-missile defense systems.



actually...

www.bme.boun.edu.tr/bulten/resimler/ertas_5.jpg



AF1 doesn't travel with fighter escorts. In fact, On 9-11-01, the AF tried to provide escort but AF1 was traveling at max speed, nearly the speed of sound. The escorts had to use AB's to catch up and kept running out of fuel. The escorts requested that AF1 slow down so they could catch up and keep up. AF1 aircraft commander declined and continued to fly unescorted.



There's no way AF1 could out run a jet fighter.
Link Posted: 4/9/2006 5:08:31 PM EDT
Read that again guys. In order for the fighters to catch up to Air Force 1, they had to use their afterburners. This caused them to run out of fuel before they could catch up to Air Force 1.
Link Posted: 4/9/2006 5:10:06 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Napoleon_Tanerite:

Originally Posted By Sukebe:

Originally Posted By Napoleon_Tanerite:

Originally Posted By rtech:
www.boeing.com/defense-space/military/f15/images/c22-610-32.jpg

The "Top Secret" AF One anti-missile defense systems.



actually...

www.bme.boun.edu.tr/bulten/resimler/ertas_5.jpg



AF1 doesn't travel with fighter escorts. In fact, On 9-11-01, the AF tried to provide escort but AF1 was traveling at max speed, nearly the speed of sound. The escorts had to use AB's to catch up and kept running out of fuel. The escorts requested that AF1 slow down so they could catch up and keep up. AF1 aircraft commander declined and continued to fly unescorted.



the raptors could keep up no sweat



Not saying that they couldn't keep up. Can do if it was a planned and coordinated escort with scheduled in flight refueling. On that day, it was a matter of escorts from bases near the AF1 flight path, a hodge podge of AF and AirNG assets that had to catch up and keep up. They simply didn't have enough fuel. I don't know the range of the F22 but I doubt that it's got the range of AF1.
Link Posted: 4/9/2006 5:11:31 PM EDT

Originally Posted By mr_camera_man:

Originally Posted By Wobblin-Goblin:
By all means, let's keep spreading the word....




Don't worry... whoever was running that server just got busted down to Bitch First Class, and I'm sure that alphabet-soup agencies are knocking on the doors associated with the IP addresses of whoever saw it.



well, i'll let you know if they show up here. based on the wording in the article, i went looking for info. took about 20 mins to find a doc at an airforce base with details on air force one countermeasures, floorplans, and the location of medical oxygen. is it the same as if SF Gatw doc? i have no idea. we all know they press likes to exagerate things though and this documnet could very easily meet the requirements claimed. it was not found through any type of mishap or security breach and the documentt is clearly marked as approved for public release.

im surprised at how quick many of you are to believe one of the 'good guys' screwed up or that the mil is just incompetent. isnt it just as possible that the press believes its own bs hype and considers themselves the only ones capable of determinig when national security is in danger. surely this information is so secret and unique that no other country has similar aircraft and countermeasues or experts capable of figuring out the details their own.
Link Posted: 4/9/2006 5:12:30 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Bama-Shooter:


There's no way AF1 could out run a jet fighter.



AF1 is built for marathons, not sprints.
Link Posted: 4/9/2006 5:17:14 PM EDT

Originally Posted By motown_steve:
I hope the son of a bitch who posted that information gets caught and convicted of something with a nice long sentence.

HELL YEAH!!!
Link Posted: 4/9/2006 5:26:33 PM EDT
[TINFOIL]This coincides nicely with the rising of bullshit that may lead to a federal .50 ban[/TINFOIL]
Link Posted: 4/9/2006 5:34:19 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Bama-Shooter:

Originally Posted By Sukebe:

Originally Posted By Napoleon_Tanerite:

Originally Posted By rtech:
www.boeing.com/defense-space/military/f15/images/c22-610-32.jpg

The "Top Secret" AF One anti-missile defense systems.



actually...

www.bme.boun.edu.tr/bulten/resimler/ertas_5.jpg



AF1 doesn't travel with fighter escorts. In fact, On 9-11-01, the AF tried to provide escort but AF1 was traveling at max speed, nearly the speed of sound. The escorts had to use AB's to catch up and kept running out of fuel. The escorts requested that AF1 slow down so they could catch up and keep up. AF1 aircraft commander declined and continued to fly unescorted.



There's no way AF1 could out run a jet fighter.



Not outrun...Outlast!
Link Posted: 4/9/2006 5:53:34 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/9/2006 5:54:15 PM EDT by passgas55]
Say AF1 is going 600mph
AF1 is 200 miles straight line from F15 escorts
F15 traveling at 1000mph would take at least 30 minutes to catch up with AF1 .
How long can a F15 travel at 1kmph and then mantain a speed of 600mph?

Link Posted: 4/11/2006 8:09:31 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Sukebe:

Originally Posted By Napoleon_Tanerite:

Originally Posted By rtech:
www.boeing.com/defense-space/military/f15/images/c22-610-32.jpg

The "Top Secret" AF One anti-missile defense systems.



actually...

www.bme.boun.edu.tr/bulten/resimler/ertas_5.jpg



AF1 doesn't travel with fighter escorts. In fact, On 9-11-01, the AF tried to provide escort but AF1 was traveling at max speed, nearly the speed of sound. The escorts had to use AB's to catch up and kept running out of fuel. The escorts requested that AF1 slow down so they could catch up and keep up. AF1 aircraft commander declined and continued to fly unescorted.



No escorts..... Hmmmm????



Link Posted: 4/11/2006 8:19:53 PM EDT
Couldn't catch AF1? All they had to do was take off from a forward position and "intercept" AF1. You make it sound like they had a catch up like a cop car or something, after the fact.
Link Posted: 4/11/2006 8:25:19 PM EDT
I would be most interested to hear if these "plans" are for the Air Force 1's that are only a few years old, or if these are from "older" versions of the planes.

I noticed the libtard Panetta got his dig in there, so I question the motives of the reporter....
Link Posted: 4/11/2006 8:34:27 PM EDT

I'd give it a 50% or better chance that the plans are intentionally false and intentionally leaked.
Link Posted: 4/11/2006 8:35:38 PM EDT

Originally Posted By rtech:

Originally Posted By Sukebe:

Originally Posted By Napoleon_Tanerite:

Originally Posted By rtech:
www.boeing.com/defense-space/military/f15/images/c22-610-32.jpg

The "Top Secret" AF One anti-missile defense systems.



actually...

www.bme.boun.edu.tr/bulten/resimler/ertas_5.jpg



AF1 doesn't travel with fighter escorts. In fact, On 9-11-01, the AF tried to provide escort but AF1 was traveling at max speed, nearly the speed of sound. The escorts had to use AB's to catch up and kept running out of fuel. The escorts requested that AF1 slow down so they could catch up and keep up. AF1 aircraft commander declined and continued to fly unescorted.



No escorts..... Hmmmm????

www.dfwstangs.net/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/Chief_s_Escort%5B1%5D01.jpg

www.dfwstangs.net/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/Escort_over_Northern_Iraq_3%5B1%5D01.jpg



A photo of an F15 flying with AF1 does not an escort make. I have a close personal friend who is part of the AF1 flight crew. He holds a very high position in the Presidential Lift Squadron. I'd call him a reliable source.
Link Posted: 4/11/2006 8:36:07 PM EDT
I really doubt the veracity of this story.
Link Posted: 4/11/2006 9:04:07 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Misery:
Couldn't catch AF1? All they had to do was take off from a forward position and "intercept" AF1. You make it sound like they had a catch up like a cop car or something, after the fact.



Nobody said the fighters were not able to catch up. It took too much fuel to catch up for them to keep up. Even if the fighters could coordinate inflight refuleing, they have to slow down considerably to take on fuel. They have to do it much more often then AF1 needs to take on fuel, even traveling at max speed. During the flight that was related to me by a member of the flight crew, the aircraft commander was not willing to slow down for any reason. The President insisted that he get on T.V. and address the nation ASAP. He didn't care where. A compromise was reached and they landed at a secure AF base where arrangemnets were being made to get the President on television.

As far as the defensive capabilities go, I don't ask and he doesn't tell. But, anyone who builds, installs or maintains the equippment would know all about it. Everyone I've ever met who was associated with AF1 whether it was the ground crew, the flight, the security personell or even the flight stewards have been very professional and extremely proud of their association with Presidential service. I can't imagine anyone of them leaking critical or classified information. Anything is possible but I doubt that anyone closely associated with AF1 would do this. Therefore, I doubt the accuracy of any information in the report. Also, anyone who has ever been on AF1 (including me) knows where the medical facilities are and where the Secret Service areas are. So that information really isn't classified but they would rather you not discuss details.
Link Posted: 4/11/2006 9:48:49 PM EDT
From:
www.cooperativeresearch.org/essay.jsp?article=essayaninterestingday


We know that when Air Force One took evasive action around 10:55, there was no fighter escort. NORAD commander Major General Larry Arnold later said, “We scrambled available airplanes from Tyndall [note this is near Tallahassee, not Jacksonville, Florida] and then from Ellington in Houston, Texas,” but he doesn’t say when. [Code One Magazine, 1/02] In another account, the first two F-16s to arrive are piloted by Shane Brotherton and Randy Roberts, from the Texas Air National Guard, not from any Florida base. [CBS, 9/11/02] All that’s known for sure is that by 11:30 there were six fighters protecting Air Force One. [Sarasota Magazine, 9/19/01]


So, let me get this straight...

AF1 DOES NOT travel with fighter escort, according to your "highly placed AF1 crewmember" that you know and trust, you've been on AF1 at least once, are intimate with the security procedures and all events on AF1 on 9/11 - but when presented with photographic evidence of US fighters flying with warshot missiles under wings, titled "....escort_f15....." (posted from another thread in arfcom, not mine) and the above quoted link - you insist that Air Froce One does not fly with fighter escorts.

I remember the photos of F-15's and F-16's out the window of AF One on 9/11. I guess I didn't see it in the papers and on the news. Silly of me.

BTW, the photos I posted were from a visit to Iraq. Of course he would have fighter escorts in a combat zone. Secret Service would not be that stupid. But then again.......
Link Posted: 4/11/2006 10:03:05 PM EDT
I smell bullshit big time.
Link Posted: 4/11/2006 10:03:14 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/11/2006 10:05:15 PM EDT by Sukebe]

Originally Posted By rtech:
From:
www.cooperativeresearch.org/essay.jsp?article=essayaninterestingday


We know that when Air Force One took evasive action around 10:55, there was no fighter escort. NORAD commander Major General Larry Arnold later said, “We scrambled available airplanes from Tyndall [note this is near Tallahassee, not Jacksonville, Florida] and then from Ellington in Houston, Texas,” but he doesn’t say when. [Code One Magazine, 1/02] In another account, the first two F-16s to arrive are piloted by Shane Brotherton and Randy Roberts, from the Texas Air National Guard, not from any Florida base. [CBS, 9/11/02] All that’s known for sure is that by 11:30 there were six fighters protecting Air Force One. [Sarasota Magazine, 9/19/01]


So, let me get this straight...

AF1 DOES NOT travel with fighter escort, according to your "highly placed AF1 crewmember" that you know and trust, you've been on AF1 at least once, are intimate with the security procedures and all events on AF1 on 9/11 - but when presented with photographic evidence of US fighters flying with warshot missiles under wings, titled "....escort_f15....." (posted from another thread in arfcom, not mine) and the above quoted link - you insist that Air Froce One does not fly with fighter escorts.

I remember the photos of F-15's and F-16's out the window of AF One on 9/11. I guess I didn't see it in the papers and on the news. Silly of me.

BTW, the photos I posted were from a visit to Iraq. Of course he would have fighter escorts in a combat zone. Secret Service would not be that stupid. But then again.......



Reading is fundamental. I'm typing slowly so you can understand. The AF did try to provide escort on 9/11/01. That fact is not in dispute. For the last time, they could not keep up because they consumed too much fuel trying to catch up. AF1 does not routinely use fighter escorts, period.

Incidently and just to piss you off a little more, I've met the A/C commnader that flew the President into Iraq. He received a Distinguished Flying Cross for that mission. It may seem like a little much but there was a lot more that went into it than simply flying the President from point A to point B and back. Want to hear what happened with the back up AF1 on that trip? It's pretty funny but I'm not telling you because you're being a jerk.
Your source is a magazine article and some photos. My source is people who were there.
Link Posted: 4/11/2006 10:27:53 PM EDT

Originally Posted By rtech:
From:
www.cooperativeresearch.org/essay.jsp?article=essayaninterestingday


We know that when Air Force One took evasive action around 10:55, there was no fighter escort. NORAD commander Major General Larry Arnold later said, “We scrambled available airplanes from Tyndall [note this is near Tallahassee, not Jacksonville, Florida] and then from Ellington in Houston, Texas,” but he doesn’t say when. [Code One Magazine, 1/02] In another account, the first two F-16s to arrive are piloted by Shane Brotherton and Randy Roberts, from the Texas Air National Guard, not from any Florida base. [CBS, 9/11/02] All that’s known for sure is that by 11:30 there were six fighters protecting Air Force One. [Sarasota Magazine, 9/19/01]


So, let me get this straight...

AF1 DOES NOT travel with fighter escort, according to your "highly placed AF1 crewmember" that you know and trust, you've been on AF1 at least once, are intimate with the security procedures and all events on AF1 on 9/11 - but when presented with photographic evidence of US fighters flying with warshot missiles under wings, titled "....escort_f15....." (posted from another thread in arfcom, not mine) and the above quoted link - you insist that Air Froce One does not fly with fighter escorts.

I remember the photos of F-15's and F-16's out the window of AF One on 9/11. I guess I didn't see it in the papers and on the news. Silly of me.

BTW, the photos I posted were from a visit to Iraq. Of course he would have fighter escorts in a combat zone. Secret Service would not be that stupid. But then again.......



I guess you didn't notice where those two pictures from that other thread where taken. They are over Iraq.

Link Posted: 4/11/2006 10:32:29 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Napoleon_Tanerite:

Originally Posted By rtech:
www.boeing.com/defense-space/military/f15/images/c22-610-32.jpg

The "Top Secret" AF One anti-missile defense systems.



actually...

www.bme.boun.edu.tr/bulten/resimler/ertas_5.jpg



Actually both of the two -22s in this photo are not cabable of defending AF1. Neither one of them had the avoinics needed to launch guided weapons installed.
Link Posted: 4/11/2006 10:36:19 PM EDT
That story about Bush in Iraq is common knowledge AFAIK. Either way, people with high level DOD clearance don't talk outside their circle, unless they're selling information to the enemy. I really doubt the site reveals anything truthful or up-to-date. You know what you need to and that's it, and I highly doubt the people involved in the operations of AF1 tell outsiders stories about their adventures. My own father had a fairly high level DOD clearance for ops in Desert Storm and never even told me what his duties were, much less any stories that aren't classified. He never to this day has revealed one interesting tidbit from his years of military service.
Link Posted: 4/11/2006 10:36:29 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/11/2006 10:53:52 PM EDT by cnatra]

Originally Posted By Sukebe:


AF1 DIDN'T travel with fighter escorts THEN .


In fact, On 9-11-01, the AF tried to provide escort but AF1 was traveling at max speed, nearly the speed of sound. The escorts had to use AB's to catch up and kept running out of fuel. The escorts requested that AF1 slow down so they could catch up and keep up. AF1 aircraft commander declined and continued to fly unescorted.




that all changed after that day , new procedures have been implemented

escorts are a extremely common if not regular procedure now
Link Posted: 4/11/2006 10:45:30 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Misery:
That story about Bush in Iraq is common knowledge AFAIK. Either way, people with high level DOD clearance don't talk outside their circle, unless they're selling information to the enemy. I really doubt the site reveals anything truthful or up-to-date. You know what you need to and that's it, and I highly doubt the people involved in the operations of AF1 tell outsiders stories about their adventures. My own father had a fairly high level DOD clearance for ops in Desert Storm and never even told me what his duties were, much less any stories that aren't classified. He never to this day has revealed one interesting tidbit from his years of military service.



I agree. But a story about an Air Force base commander in Turkey going ape shit upon seeing AF1 landing at his base without warning only to have a field grade officer decline to give him any information and demand to be refueled "right now", isn't exactly classified information. It isn't public knowledge and you won't see it in the papers but it did happen.
Link Posted: 4/11/2006 10:57:10 PM EDT
what happened to the back up af1 on that trip?

:> I'd liek to know.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_Force_One
here is the floor plan that was released by the british newspaper
http://image.guardian.co.uk/sys-files/Guardian/documents/2006/04/11/Airforceone_1104.pdf
Link Posted: 4/11/2006 11:11:40 PM EDT
tagged
Link Posted: 4/11/2006 11:16:39 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/11/2006 11:20:32 PM EDT by Sukebe]

Originally Posted By HommieDaKlown:
what happened to the back up af1 on that trip?



Read my above post about the base in Turkey. There's more to it and it was pretty funny the way it was told to me.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_Force_One
here is the floor plan that was released by the british newspaper
http://image.guardian.co.uk/sys-files/Guardian/documents/2006/04/11/Airforceone_1104.pdf



I hope you aren't asking me to confirm the layout. I wouldn't feel comfortable doing that. I think it's wrong to publish that kind of information. I will say this. I entered the plane on the port side. There is a door to the right of the large Presidential seal on the light blue backgoround. The aircraft deploys a large, wide staircase. This a the door to the cargo area. Once you enter, to the right of that door is a narrow staircase that takes you to the main deck. This is not the door that the President is usually seen entering and exiting the plane from. He gets the mobile staircase rolled out and exits directly from the main deck through a regular passenger door.
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