Cardinal Errors

The American Catholic bishops are waging an intense, sophisticated campaign to promote their version of immigration reform, which happens also to be big business's version of immigration reform. The campaign comes complete with brochures, a well-designed website, prayer cards, bracelets, and phony arguments.

In Wednesday's New York Times, Roger Cardinal Mahony of Los Angeles made his case. He not only opposes the House Republicans' immigration bill, which emphasizes enforcing the laws against illegal immigration, but has directed the priests of his archdiocese to disobey it if it becomes law. The bill, he writes, "would subject [priests], as well as other church and humanitarian workers, to criminal penalties." He adds, "Providing humanitarian assistance to those in need should not be made a crime, as the House bill decrees. As written, the proposed law is so broad that it would criminalize even minor acts of mercy like offering a meal or administering first aid."
(Yes, it should be a crime you fucking moron.)

If the House Republicans had proposed such a bill, they would deserve to be opposed. But they have not, and Cardinal Mahony is at least uncharitable in claiming that they have. The cardinal points to a provision of the bill that makes it illegal to "assist" an illegal immigrant to "remain in the United States." (The person providing such assistance would have to know, or recklessly disregard, the assistee's legal status to have committed an offense, by the way, not that the cardinal shares that information with his readers.) That provision is directed at those who traffic in illegal immigrants. Its language largely replicates existing legal provisions that have never been applied against charitable work. The cardinal has never raised any objection to the existing law, and indeed praises it in his op-ed.

Mahony writes, "Only comprehensive reform of the immigration system, embodied in the principles of another proposal in Congress, the Secure America and Orderly Immigration bill, will help solve our current immigration crisis." He is referring to the McCain-Kennedy legislation that (to characterize it polemically) would provide an amnesty for illegal immigrants here and raise immigration levels.

The cardinal's language ("What the church supports is. . .") may confuse the casual reader. Surely he is not suggesting that it follows from the Magisterium of the Catholic Church that a particular piece of legislation is the "only" way to "solve our current immigration crisis." That would be an absurd abuse of Mahony's teaching authority. Presumably what he means is that this legislation, in his judgment and the judgment of other bishops, best embodies the moral principles that the Church believes should govern immigration policy.

Those principles, if not every explication of them by the Church's bureaucracy, are sound. Illegal immigrants, like all other persons, should indeed be treated with dignity and respect. Enforcement of immigration laws should be humane. Refugees from persecution deserve protection. (So we should accept anyone in the world who feels 'persecuted', even if it's because they live in a Third World Shithole?) It is also true — we quote one of the bishops' statements of principle — that "sovereign nations have a right to control their borders." Faithful Catholics will disagree about what legislation would best apply these principles, just as they do in other areas. (So, for example, two Catholics who agree on the moral principle that unborn children should be protected in law might disagree about whether this should be done at the federal or state level.)

None of these principles, taken separately or together, are incompatible with the conclusion that we should be more serious about enforcing our immigration laws. A faithful Catholic might, indeed, reach the conclusion that the legitimate interests of this sovereign nation, and the dignity of immigrants, would best be protected by a reduction in legal-immigration levels — which would go well beyond anything the House Republicans have proposed. He might even decide that a lax border policy, while serving some employers' interest in cheap labor, erodes the dignity of work, which Church teaching requires us to protect.

But whatever policy he deems most consonant with the Church's moral teachings, as he participates in the debate over that policy he will do his best not to bear false witness — even against Republican congressmen.

Link

Simple solution: take away the tax-exempt status of any church violating the law.

Quoted: Simple solution: take away the tax-exempt status of any church violating the law.

+1, and I'm a Catholic.

Although I don't think any church or group should be tax-exempt.


Time to write the Vatican again.

The Catholic Church has turned into a big steaming pile of shit. At least in this country it has.

No offense to Catholics, I used to be one and much of my family is.

If they take part in this then throw their asses in prison to continue their message as they wish.
And I agree with ending tax exempt status for EVERYONE.

Isn't he already in violation of the law since it is ILLEGAL to enter this country without going through LEGAL channels?  This hypocrisy all around us is making me fucking ill!

I'm all for being compassionate, but assisting criminals is not part of the equation.  It's this kind of behavior that has turned me away from organized religion (church).  I do not want to support it with $$$.

I was Roman Catholic for 48 of my 50 years.  The church did not used to be this way.

The American Catholic Church ought to be stripped of its tax exempt status for encouraging this lawless ness and most of the bishops and cardinals put in prison for protecting pedaphile priest.

I challenge any Catholic Clergy to show me where Jesus or St. Paul said that Christians are to break the law.

"Render unto Cesaer what is Cesaer's; render unto God what is God's."

We are called to obey the law and to avoid slandering our secular leaders.

On Hugh Hewett last night they pointed out that he has as big a pedophilia scandal as Cardinal Law did.  He repeatedly put priests back into positions of authority despite knowledge that the were pedophiles.  Hugh made this point, and I think he's right, that this is an attempt to direct the spotlight elsewhere.  

Remind me again why the Catholic church isn't a haven for criminals?  

Little hisapnic boys can be very sexy.  I have no further use for the catholic church.

that's because a large percentage of the illegals are roman catholics.  the church just wants their tithe cut from these illegals.

Quoted: that's because a large percentage of the illegals are roman catholics.  the church just wants their tithe cut from these illegals.

And there you have it.

Damn Muslim fanatics!
Muslims first and Americans second!
They are ignoring our laws and harming this country!!!
Their religion is incompatible with being an American!

Quoted: that's because a large percentage of the illegals are roman catholics.  the church just wants their tithe cut from these illegals.

Although I may disagree with it just being about money, it most certainly has to do with the illegals being Roman Catholics.

Quoted: Damn Muslim fanatics! Muslims first and Americans second! They are ignoring our laws and harming this country!!! Their religion is incompatible with being an American! Quoted: that's because a large percentage of the illegals are roman catholics.  the church just wants their tithe cut from these illegals.

Although I may disagree with it just being about money, it most certainly has to do with the illegals being Roman Catholics.[/quote]

The Catholic Churches numbers are dwendling, what better way to increase the rolls than to import your own Catholics.

The war on the middle class continues.

Quoted: Little hisapnic boys can be very sexy.  I have no further use for the catholic church.

And don't speak English.......................

Sounds like our attorney flocktard gonzales would consider him a lawful citizen
bush the flocktard probably would too, these people are trying to kill our country

Mahoney is just trying to hold on to his job.  The pedophilia scandal around here is eventually going to draga him down.  Anything he can do to focus the spotlight on him to something else is what he will do.

That said the Council of Bishops isn't a whole lot better.

Quoted: Mahoney is just trying to hold on to his job.  The pedophilia scandal around here is eventually going to draga him down.  Anything he can do to focus the spotlight on him to something else is what he will do. That said the Council of Bishops isn't a whole lot better.

Excellent point.

It is time for all right-thinking catholics to rise up and flog their bishops.

You either have the separation of church & state...or you don't.

TAKE YOUR SIDE.

Quoted: The Catholic Church has turned into a big steaming pile of shit. At least in this country it has. No offense to Catholics, I used to be one and much of my family is.

I was raised one, but stopped going as soon as I could. Haven't been to a catholic church service that I wasn't forced to go to.

I got sick and tired of seeing the church try to shove all the liberal crap down the throats of its members. Combine that with the coverup of pedophile priests and the catholic church can dissapear off the face of the earth for all I care.

It ain't easy being a devout Roman Catholic these days.  All I can say is, it's similar to loving your country and hating congress.  I love my Church and many of it's members and priests, but there is a lot of conflict internally right now.  My opinion is that the whole Liberation Theology/Social Justice movement has gone waaay off the tracks.

I for one am sticking with it.  The only way to create reform is from the inside.  

Quoted:
Damn Muslim fanatics!
Muslims first and Americans second!
They are ignoring our laws and harming this country!!!
Their religion is incompatible with being an American!

Quoted: that's because a large percentage of the illegals are roman catholics. the church just wants their tithe cut from these illegals. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Although I may disagree with it just being about money, it most certainly has to do with the illegals being Roman Catholics.

The Catholic Churches numbers are dwendling, what better way to increase the rolls than to import your own Catholics.

back in the 60s when the church was Good on numbers and it was worse image wise to have a baby out of wed lock the catholic church helped women get abortions, Now the catholic church and others are very opposed to abortion. You pretty much only inherit your parents genes and their religion.

Cardinal Mahony is as Catholic as he is straight.
How evil this man is:
www.traditioninaction.org/HotTopics/a01o_Pedophilia_Mahoney.html

I believe he has one year or 2 at most before he hits 75 when Cardinals must submit their resignation. Here's hoping the new Pope accepts it before it is even on his desk.

I know others have said it but I will say it again, this influx of majority Catholic people is going to be seen by the Catholic Church as a way to influence America. If they keep coming and beome the majority then how much more powerfull with the church be then? It will have the worlds most powerfull country under its control. How much more powerfull will the Pope be then? What kind of laws will he inspire a majority catholic legislature to draft then? This is the game and they are playing it hard. I don't doubt that we will soon hear the Pope wade in on the issue of American immigration. I wonder what he will say?????

There is ONE SIMPLE fact. Latino/hispanic 'familes'go to catholic church.This means the resurgence of the 'faith' here in USA. Plus they contribute money to the tax free corrupt institution. Most of us have recognized the hipocracy they spew and have abandoned the didlers.

If I see someone collapsed on the side of the road due to  heat exhaustion, I will render aid.  I'm not going to ask for ID to make sure they are a legal immigrant first.

The law is overly broad and should be ignored when it comes to humanitarian issues.  

Seems the Cardinal has read the story of the Good Samaritan...

Deport them too.

Quoted: I know others have said it but I will say it again, this influx of majority Catholic people is going to be seen by the Catholic Church as a way to influence America. If they keep coming and beome the majority then how much more powerfull with the church be then? It will have the worlds most powerfull country under its control. How much more powerfull will the Pope be then? What kind of laws will he inspire a majority catholic legislature to draft then? This is the game and they are playing it hard. I don't doubt that we will soon hear the Pope wade in on the issue of American immigration. I wonder what he will say?????

+1

It's not like the Catholic Church hasn't experienced a significant erosion of devout attendees in the wake of the continuing gay pedophile priest scandals. I am positive that they will welcome any influx of devout contributors.

Who the fuck cares...

If they break the law...throw them in jail...

All religous denominations are a business of one sort or another
All religous denominations  are vying to influence the masses
All religous denominations  seek to shape laws to there own self interests

Dont just lay this on the catholics.  Evangelical Lutherans and protestants are the fastest growing denomination south of the border. So the whole pope conspiracy theory doesnt mean squat.

As much as I am against illegal immigration, I have mixed feelings about this topic.  I believe it's not the Church's responsibility to check green cards of the people in their diocese who need food and clothing.  That's the responsibility of the federal government, the same government who refuses to stop these people at the border in the first place.  Christians (yes, all Christians) are called upon to give humanitarian aid to all humans beings, period.  Do you think Christ cares if a person has filled out the proper INS documents if they have nothing to eat?  I don't think so, and I'm seriously at a loss to think that someone who calls themselves Christian could.  The quote of giving Caesar what is Caesar's and giving God what is God's had to do with paying taxes, so that is out of context in this discussion.  Christ never told his followers to obey His commands unless the gov't says you can't.

Secondly, there's the 1st Amendment to the Constitution.  "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances"

Humanitarian aid is definitely exercising the Christian religion so to me this would be just as Unconstitutional a law as any of the gun laws we rant about incessantly on this site.  I am one of those people who believes the separation of Church and State doesn't mean Church subordination to the State as many leftists would have you believe.

That said, I do believe the southern border of the US needs to be reinforced, 100 times over.  What is the point of implementing any new laws when our elected officials refuse to secure our borders, and demonize those citizens who volunteer their time to help do so?  We need to stop these people from ever getting into the US, period.  Anything short of that is closing the barn doors after the horses already got out.

My two cents as a Roman Catholic who knows how much good the Church does, despite the broken record claims of the anti-Catholics.

Quoted: I know others have said it but I will say it again, this influx of majority Catholic people is going to be seen by the Catholic Church as a way to influence America. If they keep coming and beome the majority then how much more powerfull with the church be then? It will have the worlds most powerfull country under its control. How much more powerfull will the Pope be then?

How "powerful" (one "l", what would Sister Mary think?) is the Pope now? Most if not all Christian demoninations these days seem to be close to almost civil war over a number of issues. Homosexual sodomy, abortion, immigration, socialism, etc.  It is called the left coast not just for political reasons. Cardinal Mahoney rather hates everything the present Pope stands for. Saying Mahoney is what the Catholic Church is, is like saying Hillary Clinton is what the United States is.

If I see someone collapsed on the side of the road due to heat exhaustion, I will render aid. I'm not going to ask for ID to make sure they are a legal immigrant first.

Agreed.  We're human first, American second.

WRT to the church, we're talking about priests.  They're not cops or INS agents.  They're priests because they're compassionate people that have devoted their lives to helping others.  After attending (and receiving a poor education that consisted of no science and very little math) a Roman Catholic school for eight years, I'm not very pro-catholic, but I actually do support their decision to help others despite a potential law that makes it illegal.  From reading the responses here I know I'm in a small minority here.  I'm surprised by that.z

Quoted: If I see someone collapsed on the side of the road due to heat exhaustion, I will render aid. I'm not going to ask for ID to make sure they are a legal immigrant first. Agreed.  We're human first, American second. WRT to the church, we're talking about priests.  They're not cops or INS agents.  They're priests because they're compassionate people that have devoted their lives to helping others.  After attending (and receiving a poor education that consisted of no science and very little math) a Roman Catholic school for eight years, I'm not very pro-catholic, but I actually do support their decision to help others despite a potential law that makes it illegal.  From reading the responses here I know I'm in a small minority here.  I'm surprised by that.z

I don't think most ARFComer's disagree with that, as long as you put them on the fucking bus back home when you are done.  However, I am getting to the point where I have had it with picking and choosing what laws you obey.  Ignore our laws regarding ilegals?  You are part of the problem and should be on the bus with them, or up against the wall which is coming next.

When our founding fathers demanded the
seperation of church and state ,this
is one of the things they feared.

The Roman Catholic Church affecting our
elections .

Belloc Member Joined :: March 2001 Post Number :: 2364 ITA   User Info     IM User     Email User     Reply     Quote   -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Quoted: I know others have said it but I will say it again, this influx of majority Catholic people is going to be seen by the Catholic Church as a way to influence America. If they keep coming and beome the majority then how much more powerfull with the church be then? It will have the worlds most powerfull country under its control. How much more powerfull will the Pope be then? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- How "powerful" (one "l", what would Sister Mary think?) is the Pope now? Most if not all Christian demoninations these days seem to be close to almost civil war over a number of issues. Homosexual sodomy, abortion, immigration, socialism, etc. It is called the left coast not just for political reasons. Cardinal Mahoney rather hates everything the present Pope stands for. Saying Mahoney is what the Catholic Church is, is like saying Hillary Clinton is what the United States is.

Hey thanks for pointing out my typo. I will now return the favor, LEARN TO READ. If you read my post again, you will see that I never mentioned Cardinal Mahoney. I was talking about the Catholic Church. What would Sister Mary think about your lack of reading skills?

Quoted: [ Hey thanks for pointing out my typo. I will now return the favor, LEARN TO READ. If you read my post again, you will see that I never mentioned Cardinal Mahoney.

Of course, I never said you did. That point was simply because HE is the crank who gave the instructions. So, besides learning to spell and read, I would recommend you take two of these respond in the morning.

Quoted: When our founding fathers demanded the seperation of church and state ,this is one of the things they feared. The Roman Catholic Church affecting our elections .

You do know that the person who worded the First Amendment wanted the Bible to be read and taught in public school?

Quoted: Quoted: When our founding fathers demanded the seperation of church and state ,this is one of the things they feared. The Roman Catholic Church affecting our elections . You do know that the person who worded the First Amendment wanted the Bible to be read and taught in public school?

And the guys who worded the 14th Amendment specifically stated that citizenship didn't pertain to persons born on US soil to ANY foreigners.

Proving the Constitution is not a magical piece of paper.

This is disgraceful.

I want to back to the olden days when the leadership of the Catholic church was busy covering up for closeted homosexuals and child molestors.

It was a more innocent time back then....in 2005 I mean.

Quoted: This is disgraceful. I want to back to the olden days when the leadership of the Catholic church was busy covering up for closeted homosexual child molestors. It was a more innocent time back then....in 2005 I mean.

Fixed.

Quoted: This is disgraceful. I want to back to the olden days when the leadership of the Catholic church was busy covering up for closeted homosexuals and child molestors. It was a more innocent time back then....in 2005 I mean.

I'm OK with institutions* becoming irrelevant but it will mean individuals will have to do more for themselves.  We'll have to direct our own charitable giving and find good sources for news and entertainment.

*NY Times, CBS, CNN, Catholic Church (part of it anyway, the top-heavy part), and Hollywood and FAG.

Quoted: Quoted: This is disgraceful. I want to back to the olden days when the leadership of the Catholic church was busy covering up for closeted homosexual child molestors. It was a more innocent time back then....in 2005 I mean. Fixed.

You assume (what asses do) 2 things, both completely wrong.

First, you assume that homosexual men are solely responsible for child molesting. Statistics have showed over and over again that child molestation occurs outside of a man's sexual proclivity - it's an abberation of his normal, sexual life. Meaning, in short, gay men are just as likely to molest children as heterosexual men, not moreso. I guess you know more than the psychological communty at large, tho? You WANT to believe gays are responsible for child molestation, therefore they are.

Second, you assume that "child" means boy. Children, both boy and girl, are molested by Priests.

Third, many members of priesthood who have sexual problems don't ever molest a child, and merely restrict their sexual behavior to other men, making them merely closeted homosexuals. If I had to guess, this the majority of sexual misconduct by the Catholic church.....as it only makes sense that gays often "fix" themselves by pursuing a chaste life and inevitably fall back on their human impulses.

Again, you're a dumbass.

Quoted: You assume (what asses do) 2 things, both completely wrong. First, you assume that homosexual men are solely responsible for child molesting. Statistics have showed over and over again that child molestation occurs outside of a man's sexual proclivity - it's an abberation of his normal, sexual life. Meaning, in short, gay men are just as likely to molest children as heterosexual men, not moreso. I guess you know more than the psychological communty at large, tho? You WANT to believe gays are responsible for child molestation, therefore they are. Second, you assume that "child" means boy. Children, both boy and girl, are molested by Priests. Third, many members of priesthood who have sexual problems don't ever molest a child, and merely restrict their sexual behavior to other men, making them merely closeted homosexuals. If I had to guess, this the majority of sexual misconduct by the Catholic church.....as it only makes sense that gays often "fix" themselves by pursuing a chaste life and inevitably fall back on their human impulses. Again, you're a dumbass.

+1 Well put.  I'm protestant, but got married in the Catholic Church.  So I don't have an 'agenda' regarding Catholicism or Catholics.  I actually went through the French Roman Catholic school system until leaving for college in the U.S.  I simply wanted to point out my anger over the behavior of this particular individual and how he is trying to 'infect' other priests with the same desctructive ideas.

Quoted: If I see someone collapsed on the side of the road due to  heat exhaustion, I will render aid.  I'm not going to ask for ID to make sure they are a legal immigrant first. The law is overly broad and should be ignored when it comes to humanitarian issues.   Seems the Cardinal has read the story of the Good Samaritan...

The key word is "knowingly".  A smuggler "knows" and is in "reckless disregard".
It would apply to aiding a murderer, a car thief, a terrorist, or an escaped convict.  (You could argue that a doctor reporting his treating of a gunshot wound is violating the Catholic church commands, especially if the victim speaks spanish and not english.)    As things stand there is no reason to interrogate a person dying of heat exhaustion, nor would it be likely that you could (you did say collapsed, right!).  It is possible to be hysterical about the laws and claim that if you gave someone a drink of water or bandaged a wound that you "could be prosecuted" if they're found to be illegal but the purpose of the laws were to prosecute coyotes and those organized to facilitate the traffic in human beings.  Some of these laws may prosecute human slave traders.  All I can say is you must have little faith in justice to believe that you could be prosecuted for being a good samaritan.  I don't recall that he asked many questions or pretended to know anything but that he merely did the right thing.  To re-iterate the issue, "knowingly" is a key issue in being prosecuted for receiving stolen property so you'd better get that one watered down too.  

I'm sure everyone will be OK with islamic militants being smuggled over the border and receiving sanctuary in mosques.  The stage is pretty much set.

`(1) PROHIBITED ACTIVITIES- Whoever--
`(A) assists, encourages, directs, or induces a person to come to or enter the United States, or to attempt to come to or enter the United States, knowing or in reckless disregard of the fact that such person is an alien who lacks lawful authority to come to or enter the United States;
`(B) assists, encourages, directs, or induces a person to come to or enter the United States at a place other than a designated port of entry or place other than as designated by the Secretary of Homeland Security, regardless of whether such person has official permission or lawful authority to be in the United States, knowing or in reckless disregard of the fact that such person is an alien;
`(C) assists, encourages, directs, or induces a person to reside in or remain in the United States, or to attempt to reside in or remain in the United States, knowing or in reckless disregard of the fact that such person is an alien who lacks lawful authority to reside in or remain in the United States;
`(D) transports or moves a person in the United States, knowing or in reckless disregard of the fact that such person is an alien who lacks lawful authority to enter or be in the United States, where the transportation or movement will aid or further in any manner the person's illegal entry into or illegal presence in the United States;
`(E) harbors, conceals, or shields from detection a person in the United States knowing or in reckless disregard of the fact that such person is an alien who lacks lawful authority to be in the United States;
`(F) transports, moves, harbors, conceals, or shields from detection a person outside of the United States knowing or in reckless disregard of the fact that such person is an alien in unlawful transit from one country to another or on the high seas, under circumstances in which the person is in fact seeking to enter the United States without official permission or lawful authority; or
`(G) conspires or attempts to commit any of the preceding acts,

Perfectly rational behavior.  The illegals are mainly Catholic.

Quoted: You either have the separation of church & state...or you don't. TAKE YOUR SIDE.

We don't.  It isn't in any law.

That said, if they break the law, send their ass to prison.  Of course, when they confiscate all guns and only outlaws have guns, I have to wonder just how far our attitude on the idea of law-breaking will shift.  

I have to agree with Dino, help those in need wherever they may be from.
Matt

Quoted:
You assume  2 things, both completely wrong.
Well no, but this may be amusing, stupid (your forte), but amusing.

First, you assume that homosexual men are solely responsible for child molesting
No, I never "assumed" that, not did I ever state any such thing.

Statistics have showed over and over again that child molestation occurs outside of a man's sexual proclivity - it's an abberation of his normal, sexual life. Meaning, in short, gay men are just as likely to molest children as heterosexual men, not moreso. I guess you know more than the psychological communty at large, tho? You WANT to believe gays are responsible for child molestation, therefore they are.
No I simply acknowledge the fact that the vast majority of sexual abuse in the Church was committed by those who identify themselves as having homosexual orientation. Nothing more, nothing less.

Second, you assume that "child" means boy. Children, both boy and girl, are molested by Priests.
Again, over 90% of the abuse was of sexually mature or maturing boys by those who identify themselves as having homosexual orientation. The fact of what you stated does nothing to deny or refute this. So, either you support the homosexual agenda, or are simply a total friggen idiot. Well, one rather makes the other.