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Posted: 4/3/2006 12:59:57 PM EDT
while surfing the NAA site i saw this: www.naaminis.com/naac&b.html

are there any areas where the legalities are such that this would be useful? as in, you're not allowed to CCW a "normal" firearm, but a black powder revolver would be allowed?
Link Posted: 4/3/2006 2:37:16 PM EDT
I have no idea.
Link Posted: 4/3/2006 2:57:49 PM EDT
good lord, are you serious?
Link Posted: 4/3/2006 2:58:59 PM EDT
IIRC, blackpowder isn't really considered a firearm.

Loophole for felons, etc who actually are making an attempt to stay within the rules and maintain a legal means of self defense.

Now, the bitch is if they can't legally possess ammo/components. YMMV.
Link Posted: 4/3/2006 3:00:13 PM EDT

Originally Posted By LgAnimalVet:
good lord, are you serious?



In some states these aren't even guns. Just like the federal laws say. It would be the same as carrying a knife.
Link Posted: 4/3/2006 3:11:25 PM EDT

Originally Posted By DanishM1Garand:

Originally Posted By LgAnimalVet:
good lord, are you serious?



In some states these aren't even guns. Just like the federal laws say. It would be the same as carrying a knife.



so, in a state where these aren't considered guns, and a CCW isn't required for a knife, you could carry one of these without a CCW?

what about age limitations? federal laws bans me from buying a pistol from a FFL since i'm only 19, but could i buy one of these? i wonder what the NYS law is on this.
Link Posted: 4/3/2006 3:13:11 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/3/2006 3:13:25 PM EDT by blacklisted]
I've wondered about this as well.

There are black powder guns (Ruger makes one, that I know of) that you can swap in a .45 colt cylinder.
Link Posted: 4/3/2006 3:19:48 PM EDT
Does that mean I can SBR a .50 cal inline?
Link Posted: 4/3/2006 3:20:59 PM EDT
I wonder about it, too. Black powder cap & ball pistols were adequate for decades, and if you felt you needed a CCW it's better than nothing.
Link Posted: 4/3/2006 3:22:57 PM EDT

Originally Posted By fossil_fuel:

Originally Posted By DanishM1Garand:

Originally Posted By LgAnimalVet:
good lord, are you serious?



In some states these aren't even guns. Just like the federal laws say. It would be the same as carrying a knife.



so, in a state where these aren't considered guns, and a CCW isn't required for a knife, you could carry one of these without a CCW?

what about age limitations? federal laws bans me from buying a pistol from a FFL since i'm only 19, but could i buy one of these? i wonder what the NYS law is on this.



I'm 99% sure that in NY if you have a black powder handgun and have powder and shot it has to be registered on a pistol permit
Link Posted: 4/3/2006 3:25:15 PM EDT
I have always wondered how this applies to a felon. Anybody know? Just curious.

And no, I'm not a felon, though I did stay at a Holiday Inn last night.
Link Posted: 4/3/2006 3:25:56 PM EDT
Link Posted: 4/3/2006 3:27:40 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/3/2006 3:29:10 PM EDT by passgas55]

Originally Posted By j-fonz:
Does that mean I can SBR a .50 cal inline?



I got a double barrel ml 12ga cap lock with 13" barrels. No fed law against it and in the state of LA no laws or registration too. Shoot both barrels together using 80 grains of real blackpower in each barrel with #1 buck and you will also hit the people behind you. If the lead don't bring them down the flash and smoke will.
Link Posted: 4/3/2006 3:27:50 PM EDT
I load my Ruger OA with 42 gr of 3F over a RB for just such an occasion.
Plus,I can get away in the resulting cloud of smoke.
Link Posted: 4/3/2006 3:28:15 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/3/2006 3:28:30 PM EDT by photokirk]
I've met folks who carried blackpowder revolvers without a CHL. Most of them were 18-20 years old and pretty sure that they had the world all figured out. I would be pretty hesitant to expect the average LEO to know every nuance of firearms laws.
Link Posted: 4/3/2006 3:30:57 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/3/2006 3:32:28 PM EDT by fossil_fuel]
it seems that the answer is "NO", at least for NYS, i can't even own a muzzleloading pistol unless i just want to hang it on the wall:


Q - Are antique handguns subject to the same laws as those applied to modern handguns?

The Penal Law definition of antique firearm is generally applied to muzzle loading black powder firearms, but also applies to pistols or revolvers "that use fixed cartridges which are no longer available in the ordinary channels of commercial trade".

Muzzle loading pistols or revolvers do not have to be registered on a pistol permit if the owner never intends to fire them.

If they are possessed in a loaded condition or are simply possessed simultaneously with the components necessary to make them fire, they must first be registered on a valid pistol permit.

Note: Should a manufacturer begin to produce ammunition for a pistol or revolver for which ammunition had not been available previously, that weapon no longer meets the criteria of an antique weapon and is required to be registered. A pistol or revolver, regardless of age, when possessed with the ammunition necessary to make it discharge, is required to be registered.

Link Posted: 4/3/2006 3:32:04 PM EDT
Link Posted: 4/4/2006 8:49:24 AM EDT

Originally Posted By fossil_fuel:
while surfing the NAA site i saw this: www.naaminis.com/naac&b.html

are there any areas where the legalities are such that this would be useful? as in, you're not allowed to CCW a "normal" firearm, but a black powder revolver would be allowed?



When you draw down, you get to say "Stand and Deliver!"
Link Posted: 4/4/2006 8:51:16 AM EDT
i thought you said black power
Link Posted: 4/4/2006 8:54:16 AM EDT
Legal or not, the blackpowder NAA revolver is a piss poor substitute for a weapon - I'd rather have a long hickory stick.
Link Posted: 4/4/2006 8:54:42 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/4/2006 8:58:18 AM EDT by ZitiForBreakfast]
There was a guy who invented a single shot black powder credit card type of firearm, you can realease the firing pin as you hand your wallet over.

The media ate this guy up, I will try and find it Found it...



Story Here
Link Posted: 4/4/2006 8:59:29 AM EDT
Correct..in NY, you can technically purchase a black powder revolver (that is, cap and ball) and not have it on your permit...however, the second you buy caps, balls, and powder, you need to have it on your permit.

Dunno about up north, but where I lived (Orange County)...you couldn't go into a sporting goods store and buy one. You actually had to go to a gun store. I don't know if they made you do the 4473 dance for one, but I'm about %90 sure they would have asked for your permit and/or an amendment form just to buy one.

Out here, I can go to Gander, or Cabelas, and buy one. Woot.

Link Posted: 4/4/2006 9:05:16 AM EDT
I HAVE researched this very topic and in Iowa a muzzleloader is considered a firearm for all purposes of carrying and using, just not the same to purchase. Our laws also specifically state that felons are NOT allowed to possess one for hunting or any other purpose.

Our concealed weapon laws also make no exception for black powder or muzzleloading firearms.

Also for the guy who mentioned the Ruger old Army (and just about any steel framed Remington clone) that can be retrofitted with a centerfire cylinder, I would NOT try it. While it is a legal conversion you will end up with a centerfire handgun, so I would not want to be you in court when they haul you in on cencealed weapons charges.

Most well-constructed cap and ball wheelguns can be converted to cartridge use, just as they were back in the 1800's. Generally all most pistolsmiths want to see is a steel frame. I have handled several and they are way cool, although some of them are very difficult to load/unload. I would also not recommend using smokeless loads in them. Other than that it is arrogance to think a muzzleloading revolver is not an extremely effective and deadly weapon. They served shooters for decades before cartridge revolvers became common. Indeed the Walker Colt was not eclipsed in the power department by a production revolver until the 1950's and the introduction of the S&W Model 29 in 44 magnum.

I AM curious though. How long is is wise to store a cap and ball gun with loaded chambers? Will the powder corrode the cylinder walls if it sits in there too long. Obviously these guns were carried everyday by people back in the day, but I'm wondering if there were rules of thumb regarding cleaning them or somehow protecting the metal of the chamber walls.

And YES I did use a Colt Navy clone as a home defense gun for several months back when I couldn't afford anything else. It would have bought me time to get my AR or my model 94 into play, and that was all I needed.
Link Posted: 4/4/2006 9:06:08 AM EDT
For blackpowder weapons, is it any more difficult to find smokeless powder to use in them?

Also smokeless powder is more powerful than black powder, so how much more wear and tear is there on pistols?
Link Posted: 4/4/2006 9:24:48 AM EDT
As I understand it, the corrosive affects of BP won't come into play UNTIL the gun has been fired.

As long as it never got wet, it should be ok for a long time unfired.

Link Posted: 4/4/2006 9:24:59 AM EDT

Originally Posted By the_great_snag:
[I AM curious though. How long is is wise to store a cap and ball gun with loaded chambers? Will the powder corrode the cylinder walls if it sits in there too long. Obviously these guns were carried everyday by people back in the day, but I'm wondering if there were rules of thumb regarding cleaning them or somehow protecting the metal of the chamber walls.



The powder shouldn't corrode a thing..remember, the only corrosive bit is the primer/cap, after ignition. The powder itself is just fine, I believe. Hell, if it won't corrode brass...

The biggest thing comes in expansion/contraction of the powder due to humidity, etc. If you load on a humid day, and the next day is dry..odds are the powder will shrink, volume will change, etc. From what I've read, a lot of the professional gunhands during the time period would unload and reload at least once a day (I've read unload at night, re-load in the morning, as well as unload and then reload every morning)


And YES I did use a Colt Navy clone as a home defense gun for several months back when I couldn't afford anything else. It would have bought me time to get my AR or my model 94 into play, and that was all I needed.


Yes, that would have laid down a very effective smokescreen



But, yes...and quite right; the most powerful production handgun was the big old Colt Walker..not until the .44 mag came out did something have more muzzle energy in a handgun.

Link Posted: 4/4/2006 9:30:39 AM EDT

Originally Posted By OFFascist:
For blackpowder weapons, is it any more difficult to find smokeless powder to use in them?

Also smokeless powder is more powerful than black powder, so how much more wear and tear is there on pistols?



The only safe substitute for black powder in a muzzle loading weapon is Pyrodex or something along those lines that is specifically sold as a black powder substitute.

DO NOT EVER attempt to use smokeless powder in a muzzle-loader!!!! That is RULE ONE of muzzleloading!!! I can't stress it enough.

The ONLY muzzleloader I have ever seen that could tolerate smokeless powder is a hunting rifle marketed by Savage. It is specifically marked that it can use smokeless and I imagine it has a TON of restrictions on what kind of powder you can use and how much.

Just use black powder or Pyrodex like the gun gods intended... It's for the children...
Link Posted: 4/4/2006 9:38:08 AM EDT
OHHH LORRRDDDDDDDDDDDDDD.

DO NOT..DO NOT...try smokeless powder in a black powder firearm... thats a Darwins Award in the making.

black powder sustitutes are available..
777, pioneer powder, pyrodex..and the mainstay BP GOEX.

anyone who hasnt shot a cap and ball revolver..really should.
some of the deadliest men in the world used them..and people died.

Elmer Keith noted several times..that a .36 cap and ball loaded right, hit harder than the .357 of the day, same with the .44 cap and ball on the .44 mag of old school loadings.

i figure that had to do with a lead..round ball..with hits harder in life than it does on paper.

i have a couple of cap and ball pistols and for 6 shots..out to 30 yards.. it would be nasty on the receiving end.

what was the length of the shot that Hickock killed that one guy with a .36 revolver??
it was an obscenely long shot.

Link Posted: 4/4/2006 9:48:27 AM EDT

Originally Posted By muddydog:
OHHH LORRRDDDDDDDDDDDDDD.

DO NOT..DO NOT...try smokeless powder in a black powder firearm... thats a Darwins Award in the making.

black powder sustitutes are available..
777, pioneer powder, pyrodex..and the mainstay BP GOEX.

anyone who hasnt shot a cap and ball revolver..really should.
some of the deadliest men in the world used them..and people died.

Elmer Keith noted several times..that a .36 cap and ball loaded right, hit harder than the .357 of the day, same with the .44 cap and ball on the .44 mag of old school loadings.

i figure that had to do with a lead..round ball..with hits harder in life than it does on paper.

i have a couple of cap and ball pistols and for 6 shots..out to 30 yards.. it would be nasty on the receiving end.

what was the length of the shot that Hickock killed that one guy with a .36 revolver??
it was an obscenely long shot.




I agree... As true gun enthusiasts we should all respect our roots and fire some of the weapons that led to the devlopment of the fine firearms we enjoy today. You will learn a lot and have a lot of fun while you are at it!
Link Posted: 4/4/2006 10:02:08 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/4/2006 10:06:54 AM EDT by pv74]

Originally Posted By Evil_Ed:

Originally Posted By the_great_snag:
[I AM curious though. How long is is wise to store a cap and ball gun with loaded chambers? Will the powder corrode the cylinder walls if it sits in there too long. Obviously these guns were carried everyday by people back in the day, but I'm wondering if there were rules of thumb regarding cleaning them or somehow protecting the metal of the chamber walls.



The powder shouldn't corrode a thing..remember, the only corrosive bit is the primer/cap, after ignition. The powder itself is just fine, I believe. Hell, if it won't corrode brass...

The biggest thing comes in expansion/contraction of the powder due to humidity, etc. If you load on a humid day, and the next day is dry..odds are the powder will shrink, volume will change, etc. From what I've read, a lot of the professional gunhands during the time period would unload and reload at least once a day (I've read unload at night, re-load in the morning, as well as unload and then reload every morning)


And YES I did use a Colt Navy clone as a home defense gun for several months back when I couldn't afford anything else. It would have bought me time to get my AR or my model 94 into play, and that was all I needed.


Yes, that would have laid down a very effective smokescreen



But, yes...and quite right; the most powerful production handgun was the big old Colt Walker..not until the .44 mag came out did something have more muzzle energy in a handgun.




+1

Black powder is only corrosive AFTER it has been fired.
FYI it is more stable, and has a much longer shelf life than smokeless powder.
Black powder manufactured hundreds of years ago would still be perfectly good.
In fact, the blackpowder from the late 1800's was probably better than what is produced today.
By the late 1800's BP technology reached its zenith.

As a test, I left a BP rifle and revolver loaded for a few months.
Went off just fine when I wanted to use it.

I guess if I wanted it ready to rock, I would grease over the cylinders, then apply a coat of wax.
I would also apply some hot wax over the caps to seal them in place.


Whatever you do with a blackpowder revolver be sure to grease over the cylinders. With a smokeless powder gun grease is a big no no, but the BP world is totally different. The grease prevents a chain fire and seals the chamber. Use animal lard, Crisco, TC bore butter, or some other natural lube..DO NOT use a petroleum based lube.


When you clean the gun, do NOT use gun oil. Clean with soap and water...rub down with animal lard, TC bore butter, etc....Petroleum based products will cause major fouling in BP guns...


BP guns are not toys..they are very effective. The trapdoor Springfield (BP 45-70) was accurate and an effective manstopper at over 800 yards

This is a must read:

The Sandy Hook Tests of 1879...
www.researchpress.co.uk/targets/sandyhook.htm

Link Posted: 4/4/2006 10:38:25 AM EDT
I have the unholy urge to purchase an 1851 replica in .44, and you gentleman are not easing these pains at all.

In NY you can own one, as long as you cannot load it, without putting it on the pistol permit.
Link Posted: 4/4/2006 10:54:25 AM EDT

Originally Posted By OFFascist:
For blackpowder weapons, is it any more difficult to find smokeless powder to use in them?

Also smokeless powder is more powerful than black powder, so how much more wear and tear is there on pistols?



Unless you want the gun to explode in your face, DO NOT USE SMOKELESS POWDER IN BLACK POWDER FIREARMS!

The ONLY exception to this is the Savage muzzleloading rifle specifically designed for smokeless.
Link Posted: 4/4/2006 11:30:29 AM EDT
Just out of curiosity, if you carried a black-powder pistol as a CCW and you missed hitting your target, would you a. throw the pistol and run or b. just run?
Link Posted: 4/4/2006 11:48:18 AM EDT
I'm guessing you should be running whether you hit your target or not.
Link Posted: 4/4/2006 11:51:22 AM EDT

Originally Posted By tripledouble:
Just out of curiosity, if you carried a black-powder pistol as a CCW and you missed hitting your target, would you a. throw the pistol and run or b. just run?



You forgot c), which is "taking advantage of the smokescreen you just laid down, escape"

Or possibly advance, if you have a sufficently long sword..

(If you've never seen a BP handgun, it's pretty damn smokey )

Link Posted: 4/4/2006 11:51:27 AM EDT
tag
Link Posted: 4/4/2006 2:51:43 PM EDT

Originally Posted By tripledouble:
Just out of curiosity, if you carried a black-powder pistol as a CCW and you missed hitting your target, would you a. throw the pistol and run or b. just run?



If you are worried about missing perhaps you should get a blunderbus.
Link Posted: 4/4/2006 3:08:42 PM EDT
I've been tempted to get a Colt Navy replica just so I could have a firearm handy that doesn't require a CCW to carry it or keep it in my car (now I can keep handguns in the car anyway).

My boss's husband is a felon. Nothing I would consider serious, but he can't own guns. They've got a black powder shotgun, single-barrel, that they keep for home defense along with a couple of swords, including an actual claymore that my boss showed up with at work one day because she felt like it.

There's just something about a 5'2" woman with a 6" broadsword strapped to her back that makes the customers crack up every time.

In fact, I think I WILL get a Colt Navy replica over the summer. I can carry that instead of whatever real handgun I get until I can afford my CCW and defensive course. Or just carry unlicensed if I really want to risk it. Better to be judged by twelve than carried by six, and all that.

*sigh* You always see the world a little differently after the first time someone tries to murder you and yours.
Link Posted: 4/4/2006 3:19:22 PM EDT

Originally Posted By tripledouble:
Just out of curiosity, if you carried a black-powder pistol as a CCW and you missed hitting your target, would you a. throw the pistol and run or b. just run?



Well if it was a revolver I would probably thumb back the hammer and contine firing until all 6 chambers were empty... then run if I hadn't blown them to hell by then!

The Colt percussion revolvers had a unique indexing system that lets you rest the hammer between nipples when loaded. Thus it was safe to carry (according to some authorities) with all 6 chambers loaded, unlike most early cartridge revolver deisigns, such as the Colt model 1873, etc...
Link Posted: 4/4/2006 3:19:59 PM EDT
for what it is worth - I bet colt 1851's have killed more americans than any other pistol in history - think it was the side arm of choice in the civil war. A bp 45 is probably a better stopper than a 9mm.
Link Posted: 4/4/2006 3:40:12 PM EDT
My personal preference is the 1858 Remington. Get the steel framed .44 copy made by Uberti. Get the R&D Conversion Cylinders in .45. Have a ball (yes, that's a pun!)


Woody
Link Posted: 4/4/2006 3:50:03 PM EDT

Originally Posted By mousehunter:
for what it is worth - I bet colt 1851's have killed more americans than any other pistol in history - think it was the side arm of choice in the civil war. A bp 45 is probably a better stopper than a 9mm.



The 1851 was only available in .44 and .36 caliber, not .45.
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