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Posted: 4/3/2006 12:57:25 PM EDT

Eerie whispers
trapped beneath my pillow
won't let me sleep
your memories

and I know you're in this room
I'm sure I heard you sigh
Floating in between
where our worlds collide

scares the hell out of me
and the end is all I can see
and it scares the hell out of me
and the end is all I can see

and I know the moment's near
and there's nothing you can do
look through a faithless eye
are you afraid to die?

it scares the hell out of me
and the end is all I can see
and it scares the hell out of me
and the end is all I can see

It scares the hell out of me
and the end is all I can see
and it scares the hell out of me
and the end is all I can see



Right now I'm listening to this song by a band called Muse, they are a pretty good bad IMO. This song is called thoughts of a dying atheist.

So are there any atheists here, and what are yalls thoughts on dying?

IMO one of the most scary thoughts ever is that there is no purpose to life, and that we are here for nothing, and our existance is all an accident. I would think that if someone truely believed that then the prospect of dying would be very frightening.

My personal opinion about what we are here for and what comes next is still up in the air, but I would still like to believe that there is a reason for all of this craziness that is the world.
Link Posted: 4/3/2006 12:59:50 PM EDT
We all want to believe there's "something more".

What we need is evidence of what it is.
Link Posted: 4/3/2006 1:00:35 PM EDT

Originally Posted By OFFascist:
IMO one of the most scary thoughts ever is that there is no purpose to life, and that we are here for nothing, and our existance is all an accident. I would think that if someone truely believed that then the prospect of dying would be very frightening.



Why? Are you frightened by the thought of all those billions of years you didn't exist before you were born? If not, there's no reason to be afraid of the billions of years that will go by after you're dead.
Link Posted: 4/3/2006 1:01:03 PM EDT
You can always convert at the last minute and according to the Bible you'll be In Like Flynn.
Link Posted: 4/3/2006 1:01:16 PM EDT
I'm an atheist. I have no fear of death. Why would I, when I die, that's it, no "Heaven, or Hell, or any other fairy tale bullshit? Religions use fear of an unpleasant afterlife to scare people into acting according to their beliefs. This will be in the religion forum in about three...two...one.
Link Posted: 4/3/2006 1:11:52 PM EDT
an atheist is someone who is convinced that there isnt anything "spiritual" out there. Basically its also a "belief", since we cant say with certainty that there is no spiritual (for the lack of a better word) realm out there.So that means that most non-believers are not atheists.

I think there might be something, on the other hand maybe not, we dont know. One thing i do know is that all established religions are man-made. There is no way that a primitive man, many centuries ago, wrote down a book filled with the word of 'god'. Back then people dint know how to explain many things they saw around them, so they made up gods and spirits. At one point those superstitions were arranged into a system and a regulated religion was born. Since this process happened all around the world, we have now many world religions.
Link Posted: 4/3/2006 1:24:31 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/3/2006 1:34:37 PM EDT by Dino]

Originally Posted By Madis:
an atheist is someone who is convinced that there isnt anything "spiritual" out there. Basically its also a "belief", since we cant say with certainty that there is no spiritual (for the lack of a better word) realm out there.So that means that most non-believers are not atheists.



Wrong, an atheist is nothing more than someone who doesn't believe in God. Period. Anything else describes a view that is something other than atheism.

What you are describing is closer to materialism (all that exists is matter).

Non-believers in God are atheists. Non-believers in other things, like the spirit world, could belong to a number of classifications. Materialism and rationalism are 2 examples.


To answer the original question, I don't fear death any more now than when I was a Christian. If anything, I fear it less since my life doesn't depend on the whim of a deity to forgive me for something an ancient ancestor supposedly did. The fundamental problem that led me away from Christianity was the concept of original sin. I think the Jewish view on the necessity of salvation makes much more sense.

As far as purpose in life, I think that comes from inside, not an external source.

Link Posted: 4/3/2006 1:28:17 PM EDT
the song that i heard from them. the leader singer sounded like a girl
Link Posted: 4/3/2006 1:28:34 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Dino:

Wrong, an atheist is nothing more than someone who doesn't believe in God. Period. Anything else describes a view that is something other than atheism.

What you are describing is closer to materialism (all that exists is matter).

Non-believers in God are atheists. Non-believers in other things, like the spirit world, could belong to a number of classifications. Materialism and rationalism are 2 examples.





from Wikipedia:

Atheism, in its broadest sense, is an absence of belief in the existence of gods. This definition includes both those who assert that there are no gods, and those who make no claim about whether gods exist or not. Narrower definitions, however, often only qualify those who assert there are no gods as atheists, labelling the others as agnostics or simply non-theists.
Link Posted: 4/3/2006 1:28:46 PM EDT
Carl Sagan, the far leftist scientist-astronomer's final essay before his eminent death was very interesting. Didn't care for his politics but he was an interesting character.
Link Posted: 4/3/2006 1:31:53 PM EDT
Everyone has a relationship with God. Atheists don't think they do.....but they are wrong. No one can hide from God and no one can opt out of the relationship. Atheists are like the characters in a novel. They can't acknowlege their creator, but without him they do not exist.

We have atheists because God gave everyone free will.
Link Posted: 4/3/2006 1:35:19 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Will-Rogers:
Everyone has a relationship with God. Atheists don't think they do.....but they are wrong. No one can hide from God and no one can opt out of the relationship. Atheists are like the characters in a novel. They can't acknowlege their creator, but without him they do not exist.

We have atheists because God gave everyone free will.



If (and it's a big if) that's true, then the question becomes "Which god?"
Link Posted: 4/3/2006 1:36:32 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Madis:

Originally Posted By Dino:

Wrong, an atheist is nothing more than someone who doesn't believe in God. Period. Anything else describes a view that is something other than atheism.

What you are describing is closer to materialism (all that exists is matter).

Non-believers in God are atheists. Non-believers in other things, like the spirit world, could belong to a number of classifications. Materialism and rationalism are 2 examples.





from Wikipedia:

Atheism, in its broadest sense, is an absence of belief in the existence of gods. This definition includes both those who assert that there are no gods, and those who make no claim about whether gods exist or not. Narrower definitions, however, often only qualify those who assert there are no gods as atheists, labelling the others as agnostics or simply non-theists.



Yes, which is just what I said. It has nothing to do with belief (or lack of belief) in the supernatural. You are wrong and you quoted something that proves it.

Atheism solely concerns lack of belief in God. Period.

Link Posted: 4/3/2006 1:41:11 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/3/2006 1:41:22 PM EDT by Dino]

Originally Posted By Rodent:

Originally Posted By Will-Rogers:
Everyone has a relationship with God. Atheists don't think they do.....but they are wrong. No one can hide from God and no one can opt out of the relationship. Atheists are like the characters in a novel. They can't acknowlege their creator, but without him they do not exist.

We have atheists because God gave everyone free will.



If (and it's a big if) that's true, then the question becomes "Which god?"



I'm leaning towards Ameratsu, the proof of Her divine power is beyond question.

Link Posted: 4/3/2006 1:44:22 PM EDT
I have to throw my $.02 in to this thread....I would have to say that at this point in my life I am "gnostic".....I believe in something greater than ourselves....call it God, Allah, Bhudda, Obi-Wan, the FORCE, whatever, but I DO NOT think we need some form of religion to get closer to this belief.....I have a lot of trouble buying into the whole "risen from the dead" story of Catholicism.....so, what? Jesus was a ZOMBIE??....no, Jesus was a prophet, so was Abraham, so was Mohammed....and who knows who else.....and I can't hold any faith in ANY religion that advocates killing......that just doesn't seem logical....the Crusades....Jihad.....you name it, Protestants and Catholics in Ireland.....shit, they're both Christians, supposedly.......I get big kick out of the people who argue the Bible.......and say "God is real! Jesus is risen"....I say PROVE IT!....."But it is written in the good book".....a book written by man............Let the flames begin
Link Posted: 4/3/2006 1:44:24 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Will-Rogers:
Everyone has a relationship with God. Atheists don't think they do.....but they are wrong.



No, you're the one that's wrong. See how easy it is to make an assertion?

Link Posted: 4/3/2006 1:45:51 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/3/2006 1:47:04 PM EDT by JarheadPatriot]

Originally Posted By Will-Rogers:
Everyone has a relationship with God. Atheists don't think they do.....but they are wrong. No one can hide from God and no one can opt out of the relationship. Atheists are like the characters in a novel. They can't acknowlege their creator, but without him they do not exist.

We have atheists because God gave everyone free will.





.....see what I mean??....here we go......
Link Posted: 4/3/2006 1:47:16 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Dino:


Yes, which is just what I said. It has nothing to do with belief (or lack of belief) in the supernatural. You are wrong and you quoted something that proves it.

Atheism solely concerns lack of belief in God. Period.




well, its all just rather unimportant nit-picking but so far i know people who say "there might be something out there" are not referred to as atheists but as agnostics.
Link Posted: 4/3/2006 1:49:14 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Dino:

Originally Posted By Rodent:

Originally Posted By Will-Rogers:
Everyone has a relationship with God. Atheists don't think they do.....but they are wrong. No one can hide from God and no one can opt out of the relationship. Atheists are like the characters in a novel. They can't acknowlege their creator, but without him they do not exist.

We have atheists because God gave everyone free will.



If (and it's a big if) that's true, then the question becomes "Which god?"



I'm leaning towards Ameratsu, the proof of Her divine power is beyond question.




Ah, but the Pharoah Akhenaten decreed that Aten was the One True God, and that all others were false.
Link Posted: 4/3/2006 1:51:22 PM EDT
I'm sure I could be considered an atheist.

Despite all of Mr. Aquinases proofs, I know of no tangible proof that a God exists. How can I base my life, (or be concerned about a afterlife) on something that doesn't exist?

I have often wondered if maybe you need a certain level of intelligence to have true faith, because I'm not the smartest guy in the world and I could never grasp the idea of a divine creator. I have always questioned myself because I just can't get it.

To me, it's all a bunch of blind chance.

There was no beginning, there will be no end. Life didn't need to be created because it always was. Everything always was and always will be, in one form or another.

These things, I believe, are impossible for the human intellect to comprehend (so throw in a dash of agnostic).

Without blood flowing to your brain, you are just a bunch of flesh and bone that will soon be part of the earth again. When the blood stops flowing, nothing matters so nothing to be concerned about.

One quote from OFFascist's post:

IMO one of the most scary thoughts ever is that there is no purpose to life, and that we are here for nothing, and our existance is all an accident. I would think that if someone truely believed that then the prospect of dying would be very frightening.

It occured to me that wouldn't it be the exact opposite? If there is no purpose, the scary thing would be living, wouldn't it?

Good questions, though.

Link Posted: 4/3/2006 1:53:46 PM EDT
If you are an atheist there is no reason to fear death. Do you fear going to sleep? There is a reason, however, to fear wasting your good years not doing things because someone's fake god would disapprove.
Link Posted: 4/3/2006 1:55:24 PM EDT

Originally Posted By OFFascist:

Right now I'm listening to this song by a band called Muse, they are a pretty good bad IMO. This song is called thoughts of a dying atheist.

So are there any atheists here, and what are yalls thoughts on dying?

IMO one of the most scary thoughts ever is that there is no purpose to life, and that we are here for nothing, and our existance is all an accident. I would think that if someone truely believed that then the prospect of dying would be very frightening.

My personal opinion about what we are here for and what comes next is still up in the air, but I would still like to believe that there is a reason for all of this craziness that is the world.



A Freudian slip?
Link Posted: 4/3/2006 1:55:25 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Will-Rogers:
Everyone has a relationship with God. Atheists don't think they do.....but they are wrong. No one can hide from God and no one can opt out of the relationship. Atheists are like the characters in a novel. They can't acknowlege their creator, but without him they do not exist.

We have atheists because God gave everyone free will.



Cthulu will strike you down for such blasphemy.
Link Posted: 4/3/2006 1:58:21 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/3/2006 2:04:56 PM EDT by Dino]

Originally Posted By Madis:

Originally Posted By Dino:
Yes, which is just what I said. It has nothing to do with belief (or lack of belief) in the supernatural. You are wrong and you quoted something that proves it.

Atheism solely concerns lack of belief in God. Period.



well, its all just rather unimportant nit-picking but....



Words have meaning, when someone makes a false statement due to a lack of understanding it not nitpicking over defintions to state the facts.



...so far i know people who say "there might be something out there" are not referred to as atheists but as agnostics



you are not wrong there, the problem is you think atheist and agnostic are 2 seperate areas when they actually overlap.

The simplest way to explain atheism vs agnosticism is atheism concerns what you believe. Agnosticism concerns what you think you can prove (regardless of whether you can actually prove it nor not)

I'm an atheist because I do not believe in God. I'm an agnostic because I do not think anything can ever be proven about God. I would agree with the statement that "there could be something out there". I just don't believe in any concept of God i've been exposed to when all of them are equally valid from an evidenciary standpoint. Should I ever return to some form of theism, I would still be an agnostic until the day Ameratsu appeared before me and revealed Her Truth to me.

There are some atheists who believe they can prove God doesn't exist. They would be gnostic atheists (more commonly called strong atheism)

Many theists (and quite a few on this board) are agnostics because they don't believe God can be proven to exist. Thats why it requires faith.

If you want to learn more about what you were describing (lack of belief in the spiritual) then look up materialism and dualism on wikepedia.

Link Posted: 4/3/2006 2:00:19 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Rodent:

Originally Posted By Dino:

Originally Posted By Rodent:

Originally Posted By Will-Rogers:
Everyone has a relationship with God. Atheists don't think they do.....but they are wrong. No one can hide from God and no one can opt out of the relationship. Atheists are like the characters in a novel. They can't acknowlege their creator, but without him they do not exist.

We have atheists because God gave everyone free will.



If (and it's a big if) that's true, then the question becomes "Which god?"



I'm leaning towards Ameratsu, the proof of Her divine power is beyond question.




Ah, but the Pharoah Akhenaten decreed that Aten was the One True God, and that all others were false.



Ahh, but Aten was the Sun! The Pharoah simply misunderstood the Revelation of Blessed Ameratsu. The message was clear, but something got screwed up in the editorial process.

Link Posted: 4/3/2006 2:01:55 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Will-Rogers:
Everyone has a relationship with God. Atheists don't think they do.....but they are wrong. No one can hide from God and no one can opt out of the relationship. Atheists are like the characters in a novel. They can't acknowlege their creator, but without him they do not exist.

We have atheists because God gave everyone free will.



You mean that they don't believe the same thing as you, right Will? Not necessarily wrong. Correct?

Link Posted: 4/3/2006 2:04:20 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/3/2006 2:06:44 PM EDT by VanekSF1]
The reason most people say they don't believe in God is because they don't want to be held accountable for their sins. The truth will set you free...
Link Posted: 4/3/2006 2:07:56 PM EDT

Originally Posted By VanekSF1:
Most people that don't believe in God do so because they don't want to be held accountable for their sins. The truth will set you free...



actually If I didn't want to be held accountable for my wrongdoing, I could simply say "I believe in Jesus Christ, the son of God and accept his sacrifice for my sins".

Link Posted: 4/3/2006 2:09:10 PM EDT

Originally Posted By VanekSF1:
The reason most people say they don't believe in God is because they don't want to be held accountable for their sins. The truth will set you free...



accountable to who????
Link Posted: 4/3/2006 2:09:14 PM EDT
what i described in my first post is how our philosophy teacher put it. I just took a look at The Atheist Web website, apparently the jury is still out there what the exact definition is.


So whats the deal with Ameratsu then?
Link Posted: 4/3/2006 2:10:45 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/3/2006 2:14:18 PM EDT by Dino]

Originally Posted By Madis:
what i described in my first post is how our philosophy teacher put it. I just took a look at The Atheist Web website, apparently the jury is still out there what the exact definition is.


So whats the deal with Ameratsu then?



A post a while back had someone using apologetic techniques to defend belief in Ameratsu. It was a demonstration that any belief can be defended, even if it can't be proven.

oh, and don't believe everything your teacher tells you. Check it out for yourself. Belloc would be a good person to address any philosophy questions to. He's studying that kind of stuff in Rome right now.

Link Posted: 4/3/2006 2:12:27 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Dino:

Originally Posted By Madis:
what i described in my first post is how our philosophy teacher put it. I just took a look at The Atheist Web website, apparently the jury is still out there what the exact definition is.


So whats the deal with Ameratsu then?



A post a while back had someone using apologetic techniques to defend belief in Ameratsu. It was a demonstration that any belief can be defended, even if it can't be proven.




Zeus is still not happy about all this Jesus Christ business either.
Link Posted: 4/3/2006 2:18:26 PM EDT

Originally Posted By RikWriter:

Originally Posted By Will-Rogers:
Everyone has a relationship with God. Atheists don't think they do.....but they are wrong.



No, you're the one that's wrong. See how easy it is to make an assertion?




Yes, except there are RIGHT assertions, and there are wrong ones. And it must be said that there are a LOT of half-right/half-wrong assertions.

Nevertheless, there IS a god... PERIOD. Deny it all you want, Doesn't change it. Need hard proof? Sorry. Doesn't work that way. One of the purposes of this life is to see what the mice do when the cat's away so all things can be put in their proper order after it. Take human parenthood for instance. You can make junior do what you want him to do until he leaves the nest. That's when the offspring shows his true character for all to see (including himself). Hard to judge people without giving them free reign to make their own choices.

Don't believe all of this crap that I just spewed? I really don't care. Just don't pretend that you never heard it before when you die and FINALLY realize that we are more than just worm food and that a human being is only lifeless tissue without a soul. Carry on...
Link Posted: 4/3/2006 2:24:33 PM EDT

Originally Posted By dolanp:

Originally Posted By Dino:

Originally Posted By Madis:
what i described in my first post is how our philosophy teacher put it. I just took a look at The Atheist Web website, apparently the jury is still out there what the exact definition is.


So whats the deal with Ameratsu then?



A post a while back had someone using apologetic techniques to defend belief in Ameratsu. It was a demonstration that any belief can be defended, even if it can't be proven.




Zeus is still not happy about all this Jesus Christ business either.



+1. Has not the smiting of New Orleans by his brother, Poseidon, taught us anything?
Link Posted: 4/3/2006 2:27:37 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Red_Label:

Originally Posted By RikWriter:

Originally Posted By Will-Rogers:
Everyone has a relationship with God. Atheists don't think they do.....but they are wrong.



No, you're the one that's wrong. See how easy it is to make an assertion?




Yes, except there are RIGHT assertions, and there are wrong ones. And it must be said that there are a LOT of half-right/half-wrong assertions.

Nevertheless, there IS a god... PERIOD. Deny it all you want, Doesn't change it. Need hard proof? Sorry. Doesn't work that way. One of the purposes of this life is to see what the mice do when the cat's away so all things can be put in their proper order after it. Take human parenthood for instance. You can make junior do what you want him to do until he leaves the nest. That's when the offspring shows his true character for all to see (including himself). Hard to judge people without giving them free reign to make their own choices.

Don't believe all of this crap that I just spewed? I really don't care. Just don't pretend that you never heard it before when you die and FINALLY realize that we are more than just worm food and that a human being is only lifeless tissue without a soul. Carry on...



That is how Ameratsu set things up, yes. What is your point?

Link Posted: 4/3/2006 2:28:08 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Dino:
actually If I didn't want to be held accountable for my wrongdoing, I could simply say "I believe in Jesus Christ, the son of God and accept his sacrifice for my sins".




And that's one of the major mistakes of much of the zealous Christian movement. They tend to [in their zeal to preach the gospel] communicate that the process of repentence is as easy and SAYING "I accept Jesus as my Lord and Savior" and that's it. But that's NOT it! You have to ACTUALLY accept Jesus Christ as your Savior and you have to TRY to be the best, most-loving person you can be. And that's where the average born-again jumps on me and says "it's ALL about the FAITH and that's ALL that matters". And that is WRONG. Because there are people in this world who actually BELIEVE that they've accepted Jesus into their hearts and have been saved -- and then they continue to CHOOSE EVIL and bring evil upon others. And what kind of JUST God would give the very same reward to those who were evil in this life to those who were not perfect, but who fought the best fight they could, who were humble, who strived to live The Commandments, and who repented daily of their humanly imperfections? No wonder people think God is illogical and does not exist. It seems that when religion comes up, all logic and cranial activity ceases. And that's too bad... because a LOVING God meant for religion to be a "support program" for us to actually help one another to live the best life we could so we might be rewarded for that -- just like a LOVING parent would want. But all-too often religion has been used as a reason to hate and be ignorant.
Link Posted: 4/3/2006 2:28:14 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Red_Label:

Nevertheless, there IS a god... PERIOD.



Lets say for the sake of argument that you are right. But how do you know that you are adressing the right god? Or rather, how do you know that the way you worship is the right way? Because looooong time ago some primitive man wrote it down how it should be done? So what about those poor bastards in Thailand where looooong time ago some other primitive man wrote down a completely different version of god and worship? Are those poor thais now doomed because of that?
Link Posted: 4/3/2006 2:35:20 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Dino:
That is how Ameratsu set things up, yes. What is your point?





My point is what it is.

And as God said in The Bible... "I am that I am." Take it or leave it. Worship a clump of moss for all I care. Won't change anything. THE TRUTH IS THE TRUTH and neither your "truth", nor my "truth" will do anything to change that. One day we will ALL know the truth, and frankly, no matter how it may differ from my perception of it... I for one will be GLAD that it's finally and indisputably out there for all to see.
Link Posted: 4/3/2006 2:51:59 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Madis:

Originally Posted By Red_Label:

Nevertheless, there IS a god... PERIOD.



Lets say for the sake of argument that you are right. But how do you know that you are adressing the right god? Or rather, how do you know that the way you worship is the right way? Because looooong time ago some primitive man wrote it down how it should be done? So what about those poor bastards in Thailand where looooong time ago some other primitive man wrote down a completely different version of god and worship? Are those poor thais now doomed because of that?



When one looks at the abundance of differing world relgions, there are amazing similarities between many of them. Many of the followers of those religions choose to focus on the differences. But there are similarities nonetheless.

But the fact is, in the Christian faith there is ONE large difference, and that is the point that all must return to the Father by way of the Son. That's pretty hard to swallow for many. I can swallow it. But I believe in this "plan"... which is really what all religion is -- a plan to return to what which has been lost (heaven).

Anyways... unlike many of my so-called fellow "Christians" I do not and WILL NOT condemn those who've not accepted Christ as their savior. For God or Christ to condemn to hell someone who never heard of him is assinine and completely lacking in common-sense of what a LOVING FATHER would do. And God IS after all, a loving father (or creator). For ME to believe in God, he MUST be LOVING and he MUST be JUST. And to punish someone for a law they knew not would be unjust. That's why he sent his son. So I believe that one way or the other, in this life or in the next, ALL will have a REAL opportunity to accept or reject the GIFT that Christ offers (his grace). Because if even ONE soul is lost due to a mistake or oversight from God, then he ceases to be PERFECT, JUST, and omnipotent and I have ZERO interest in worshiping a God who is not THE GOD. Many so-called "believers" will probably think me wacked for daring to question God. Why NOT question God? Is it worthy of punishment for you children to question you (in a respectful way of course)? Shouldn't be. Would I have my children always blindly following my orders and never thinking for themselves? Never! Nor would the REAL God want us not to use our powers of reason? I don't think so.

Anyways... I've spewed enough in this thread. My intention wasn't to preach. These are the things I believe and I ASSURE YOU that I'm not some brain-washed zealot looking to use religion as some power trip or am too stupid to think for myself. I question my life and its purpose constantly. So believe what you will. You're free to do so. But don't make the mistake of thinking all the faithful are ignorant and too lazy to think...
Link Posted: 4/3/2006 3:01:19 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Dino:
If anything, I fear it less since my life doesn't depend on the whim of a deity to forgive me for something an ancient ancestor supposedly did.


If God holds all people accountable for their ancestors sins, then why was Enoch, son of Cain, the only person to ascend into heaven without dieing?
Link Posted: 4/3/2006 3:01:19 PM EDT

Originally Posted By James23:
I'm sure I could be considered an atheist.

Despite all of Mr. Aquinases proofs, I know of no tangible proof that a God exists. How can I base my life, (or be concerned about a afterlife) on something that doesn't exist?

I have often wondered if maybe you need a certain level of intelligence to have true faith, because I'm not the smartest guy in the world and I could never grasp the idea of a divine creator. I have always questioned myself because I just can't get it.

To me, it's all a bunch of blind chance.

There was no beginning, there will be no end. Life didn't need to be created because it always was. Everything always was and always will be, in one form or another.

These things, I believe, are impossible for the human intellect to comprehend (so throw in a dash of agnostic).

Without blood flowing to your brain, you are just a bunch of flesh and bone that will soon be part of the earth again. When the blood stops flowing, nothing matters so nothing to be concerned about.

One quote from OFFascist's post:

IMO one of the most scary thoughts ever is that there is no purpose to life, and that we are here for nothing, and our existance is all an accident. I would think that if someone truely believed that then the prospect of dying would be very frightening.

It occured to me that wouldn't it be the exact opposite? If there is no purpose, the scary thing would be living, wouldn't it?

Good questions, though.




One thing that really got me to thinking was something I read in the Book: Hyperspace, by Michio Kaku. He is one of the co-founders of a Field Theory of Superstrings. There are a large number of constants and other astromical measurements that, had any single one of them been off by only a small fraction, life would not exist. He said that if we were talking about only a few constants, it could be attributed to coincidence, but he says that hundreds of constants all being within a very small range were required for life to exist, and coincidence is extremely unlikely. This goes far beyond the "Earth was just the right distance for life to exist". (I don't buy into that 4000-year old earth theory, neither does he). What strengthen's this argument, according to him, and the mathematics involved is beyond my level of education, is Stephen Hawking's recent work on developing the Quantum Wave function for the entire Universe, that our universe is a solution to the equation that postulated an infinite number of universes, but ours is the only one that had all the constants in the exact measurement that would allow life to exist.
Link Posted: 4/3/2006 3:20:35 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Red_Label:
... Need hard proof? Sorry. Doesn't work that way...



Um, that's exactly how it works.
Link Posted: 4/3/2006 3:21:55 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Dino:

Originally Posted By Red_Label:

Originally Posted By RikWriter:

Originally Posted By Will-Rogers:
Everyone has a relationship with God. Atheists don't think they do.....but they are wrong.



No, you're the one that's wrong. See how easy it is to make an assertion?




Yes, except there are RIGHT assertions, and there are wrong ones. And it must be said that there are a LOT of half-right/half-wrong assertions.

Nevertheless, there IS a god... PERIOD. Deny it all you want, Doesn't change it. Need hard proof? Sorry. Doesn't work that way. One of the purposes of this life is to see what the mice do when the cat's away so all things can be put in their proper order after it. Take human parenthood for instance. You can make junior do what you want him to do until he leaves the nest. That's when the offspring shows his true character for all to see (including himself). Hard to judge people without giving them free reign to make their own choices.

Don't believe all of this crap that I just spewed? I really don't care. Just don't pretend that you never heard it before when you die and FINALLY realize that we are more than just worm food and that a human being is only lifeless tissue without a soul. Carry on...



That is how Ameratsu Aten set things up, yes. What is your point?




Fixed it for you, blasphemer.
Link Posted: 4/3/2006 3:24:08 PM EDT

Originally Posted By JarheadPatriot:
I have to throw my $.02 in to this thread....I would have to say that at this point in my life I am "gnostic".....I believe in something greater than ourselves....call it God, Allah, Bhudda, Obi-Wan, the FORCE, whatever, but I DO NOT think we need some form of religion to get closer to this belief.....I have a lot of trouble buying into the whole "risen from the dead" story of Catholicism.....so, what? Jesus was a ZOMBIE??....no, Jesus was a prophet, so was Abraham, so was Mohammed....and who knows who else.....and I can't hold any faith in ANY religion that advocates killing......that just doesn't seem logical....the Crusades....Jihad.....you name it, Protestants and Catholics in Ireland.....shit, they're both Christians, supposedly.......I get big kick out of the people who argue the Bible.......and say "God is real! Jesus is risen"....I say PROVE IT!....."But it is written in the good book".....a book written by man............Let the flames begin



what standard of proof would you need to believe that Jesus was who he said he was? There were eye witnesses and the events were recorded. Apply the same standard to this assertion: George Washington didn't exist. He was a made up hero cause we needed a "father of the country".

Link Posted: 4/3/2006 3:24:24 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/3/2006 3:25:37 PM EDT by dolanp]

Originally Posted By VanekSF1:
The reason most people say they don't believe in God is because they don't want to be held accountable for their sins. The truth will set you free...



Actually there's an opposite interest at work here, a good atheist can be said to be truly intrinsicly motivated to help others whereas a Christian (or whatever) doing the same deeds seeks approval and reward in the afterlife. And the reward can be as little as avoiding eternal punishment.
Link Posted: 4/3/2006 3:28:35 PM EDT
*Pfft*

I've been on borrowed time for a long time.

When it's time to go, it's time to go.

No religion and thier fairy-stories can scare me.

I've seen too many of them.
Link Posted: 4/3/2006 3:29:17 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Red_Label:

Originally Posted By Dino:
actually If I didn't want to be held accountable for my wrongdoing, I could simply say "I believe in Jesus Christ, the son of God and accept his sacrifice for my sins".




And that's one of the major mistakes of much of the zealous Christian movement. They tend to [in their zeal to preach the gospel] communicate that the process of repentence is as easy and SAYING "I accept Jesus as my Lord and Savior" and that's it. But that's NOT it! You have to ACTUALLY accept Jesus Christ as your Savior and you have to TRY to be the best, most-loving person you can be. And that's where the average born-again jumps on me and says "it's ALL about the FAITH and that's ALL that matters". And that is WRONG. Because there are people in this world who actually BELIEVE that they've accepted Jesus into their hearts and have been saved -- and then they continue to CHOOSE EVIL and bring evil upon others. And what kind of JUST God would give the very same reward to those who were evil in this life to those who were not perfect, but who fought the best fight they could, who were humble, who strived to live The Commandments, and who repented daily of their humanly imperfections? No wonder people think God is illogical and does not exist. It seems that when religion comes up, all logic and cranial activity ceases. And that's too bad... because a LOVING God meant for religion to be a "support program" for us to actually help one another to live the best life we could so we might be rewarded for that -- just like a LOVING parent would want. But all-too often religion has been used as a reason to hate and be ignorant.



wow. you couldnt be more wrong if you tried. If you accept Jesus Christ as your Lord and Saviour you are "in" as it were. The bible is very clear that once you are "in" there are varying rewards given in heaven. Some will get the front row and some will get the cheap seats.
Link Posted: 4/3/2006 3:30:23 PM EDT
Muse is an AWESOME band!

To listen to some of their stuff, click here:

www.myspace.com/musegroup

I REALLY LOVE their music. Good stuff.
Link Posted: 4/3/2006 3:31:04 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/3/2006 3:32:06 PM EDT by blacklisted]
Wow, now there are better seats available in Heaven. Instead of eternal damnation, you just end up in God's Holy Ghetto.


Originally Posted By jtw2:

Originally Posted By Red_Label:

Originally Posted By Dino:
actually If I didn't want to be held accountable for my wrongdoing, I could simply say "I believe in Jesus Christ, the son of God and accept his sacrifice for my sins".




And that's one of the major mistakes of much of the zealous Christian movement. They tend to [in their zeal to preach the gospel] communicate that the process of repentence is as easy and SAYING "I accept Jesus as my Lord and Savior" and that's it. But that's NOT it! You have to ACTUALLY accept Jesus Christ as your Savior and you have to TRY to be the best, most-loving person you can be. And that's where the average born-again jumps on me and says "it's ALL about the FAITH and that's ALL that matters". And that is WRONG. Because there are people in this world who actually BELIEVE that they've accepted Jesus into their hearts and have been saved -- and then they continue to CHOOSE EVIL and bring evil upon others. And what kind of JUST God would give the very same reward to those who were evil in this life to those who were not perfect, but who fought the best fight they could, who were humble, who strived to live The Commandments, and who repented daily of their humanly imperfections? No wonder people think God is illogical and does not exist. It seems that when religion comes up, all logic and cranial activity ceases. And that's too bad... because a LOVING God meant for religion to be a "support program" for us to actually help one another to live the best life we could so we might be rewarded for that -- just like a LOVING parent would want. But all-too often religion has been used as a reason to hate and be ignorant.



wow. you couldnt be more wrong if you tried. If you accept Jesus Christ as your Lord and Saviour you are "in" as it were. The bible is very clear that once you are "in" there are varying rewards given in heaven. Some will get the front row and some will get the cheap seats.

Link Posted: 4/3/2006 3:31:30 PM EDT

Remember what it was like right before you were born?

That's exactly what it will be like after you're dead. Except it will last forever.

Sorry if that don't give you the warm fuzzies.
Link Posted: 4/3/2006 3:32:04 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Rodent:

Originally Posted By Red_Label:
... Need hard proof? Sorry. Doesn't work that way...



Um, that's exactly how it works.



Yep.

Why make the doctorine exist in flawed translation?

Faith.....Faith....

It is what it is.

If you drink the Kool-Aid, you drink.

If you don't you don't.

Religion boils down to faith.
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