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Posted: 4/3/2006 9:02:32 PM EDT
[#1]
Other alternatives could also include running away (because what honorable warrior would stab me in the back like a Frenchman), or perhaps calling 911. |
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Posted: 4/3/2006 9:22:05 PM EDT
[#2]
I have been chuckling this whole time. This subject is the equivalent to the whole 9mm vs .45 debate over at swordforum.com. Seems some new guy brings it up every few months or so. This is the first time I've seen it here. None of their threads present the imagery of the DK-Prof and StonerStudent fight, though. 
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Posted: 4/3/2006 9:31:30 PM EDT
[#3]
I was comparing their combative original forms. |
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Posted: 4/3/2006 10:39:20 PM EDT
[#4]
Historical Western Fighting arts and modern Fence are two different things as are Kendo and Kenjutsu which I believe My Gaijin ass just misspelled. |
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Posted: 4/3/2006 11:09:13 PM EDT
[#5]
Yes, but as a combative comparisson was requested I based my answers upon their original combative forms. Kenjutsu is correct, but Kendo does not strictly refer to "sport" Kendo. Ken (meaning "sword") and Do (meaning "Way" or "Path") correctly refers to the combative art of the sword just as much as Kenjutsu (Jutsu meaning "technique" or "method.") Kendo is a generic term like "fencing." In common usage when we say "fencing" most of us assume the modern sport. But it is just as correct to refer to the original combative method of European swords as "fencing." The only real difference is between "Do" and "Jutsu", where "Jutsu" implies a strictly combative form (a method or technique) and a "Do" (way or path) refers to a way of life usually with a Zen goal. It is the same difference between Jujutsu and Judo and Kyujutsu and Kyudo (archery). |
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Posted: 4/4/2006 1:03:35 AM EDT
[#6]
as sensei mark used to say, "there is no do without jutsu." that is, one cannot follow the path without training to engage in combat. |
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Posted: 4/4/2006 1:31:29 AM EDT
[#7]
So a more accurate title would be "Kenjutsu vs Fencing"?
Only 2 videos come up when I goggled Kenjutsu, and they are already in my last post on page 2. |
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Posted: 4/4/2006 3:43:29 AM EDT
[#8]
More likely Kenjutsu vs. Arte of Defense. |
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Posted: 4/4/2006 4:14:58 AM EDT
[#9]
I’m a Swordforum person too, and was thinking the same thing. I don’t post over there all that much, the rules are too restrictive, but I’ve been a frequent lurker for about 5 years now. I have trained quite a bit in Renaissance fencing and I’ve done a bunch of informal training with the katana. What it always comes down to is the one that understands his weapons and understands what his opponent’s weapons are capable of will win. “Know yourself and know your enemy.” I’ve won a lot of rapier fights by closing and using draw cuts to beat people who were used to point fighting. With a katana doing this would be real easy. The problem is that once my opponent has fought me a few times they learn how to counter my tactics and we are back to point fighting. All and all though I would give the edge in the fight to the rapier. Problem is though that the stand up fight we are describing is a Western concept. In an ambush the katana is much faster to draw, it’s of more use in close quarters, and on uncertain terrain. On flat ground, in broad daylight, with both opponents ready to fight the rapier is the better weapon. But for a day to day carry weapon, or as a backup weapon on the battlefield, the katana is superior. |
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Posted: 4/4/2006 6:45:45 AM EDT
[#10]
I knew the swordforum people besides me would show themselves eventually! I am more of a sidesword/backsword sort of fighter with leanings toward German liechtenauer tradition longsword. Now that is a match for any style! Mathew Galas did an excellent article in Journal of the Asian Martial Arts on how similar German Longsword is in spirit and technique to many Japanese forms of swordwork. All sword arts are worth studying. Jon Eppler Director in Absentia Tulsa School of Defense http://www.burningclam.com/ma/gwma.html |
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Posted: 4/4/2006 6:51:00 AM EDT
[#11]
I found this set of photos with Google. It looks like the Kendo fighter caught the Fencer across the left shoulder on the second row, last pic. And the Kendo fighter's gut ate the foil on the third row, last pic.
http://img322.imageshack.us/img322/4193/lhs5rq.jpg |
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Posted: 4/4/2006 7:27:55 AM EDT
[#12]
I have heard of an account of Portuguese sailors being admonished by their govenment to stop killing samurais as it threatened their trade agreement with Japan. Apparently. the comparatively large Euros with their 40" long rapiers had no problem with the diminutive samurai and their two handed technique. Within historical context, the katana was a short range weapon and was used as a secondary weapon; whrereas the spear and bow were primary.
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Posted: 4/4/2006 7:49:45 AM EDT
[#13]
the real important question is who would win in a Hulk vs Spiderman battle to the finish...
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Posted: 4/4/2006 8:02:02 AM EDT
[#14]
And with regard to what "I" consider Budo your sensei is correct. Sadly there are things like modern Kyudo which have merely become a vehicle for Zen (Do) at the expense of the martial application (Bu). Kyudo masters exist who habitually miss their targets by 3 meters or more in perfect expressions of Zen. Their arts have as much martial content as Cha Do. |
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Posted: 4/4/2006 8:03:31 AM EDT
[#15]
Actually a more practical title would be Japanese vs. European Fencing. |
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Posted: 4/4/2006 8:04:53 AM EDT
[#16]
Really, to do a proper comparative analysis, the two fencers would have to trade protective gear. |
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Posted: 4/4/2006 8:38:42 AM EDT
[#17]
That and the fencing foil does not duplicate a rapier but a court sword. The rapier is a far more substantial weapon. I get mine from www.darkwoodarmory.com These are as good as it gets for a semi-custom historical simulator. |
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Posted: 4/4/2006 8:45:18 AM EDT
[#18]
NONE!! It's a fight to the DEATH 
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Posted: 4/4/2006 8:49:08 AM EDT
[#19]
Yea, there’s a big difference between a lightweight sport fencing sword and an actual rapier. The rapier weighs around three pounds and is actually heavier than the older European cutting swords, at least the single handed ones.
Rapiers are fairly quick when it comes to moving in a line but much slower if you try any rotational movements. The weight actually makes it harder for your opponent to parry a thrust… All this talk makes me want to get back to training with a sword again. |
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Posted: 4/4/2006 9:10:03 AM EDT
[#20]
Your a sick little monkey Helldog40........aargh 
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Posted: 4/4/2006 9:54:55 AM EDT
[#21]
Correct, as well as the obvious differences between a shinai and a katana. |
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Posted: 4/4/2006 10:01:09 AM EDT
[#22]
As a fencer, I'd have to say, who would win would really depend on the fencer/kendoka.
I primarily fenced Epee, but have dabbled in foil and saber. I've been to National level events, and I've see some AMAZINGLY FAST FENCERS. Some of those guys/ladies could skewer your major organs from 15 feet away before you could blink. I would contend, though, that if a fencer attacked a kendoka, and did not score a touch, the kendoka's ripost would likely defeat the fencer... small/light/fast weapons don't parry big heavy weapons very well! |
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Posted: 4/4/2006 10:12:08 AM EDT
[#23]
I'd say that is an accurate assessment. |
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Posted: 4/4/2006 10:12:18 AM EDT
[#24]
Actually that's my patented martial art, the "Kick him in the nuts and run away" move..... |
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Posted: 4/4/2006 10:19:43 AM EDT
[#25]
Thinking about the disparity in blade length... yeah, a fighter with a katana (~28" blade) and a fighter with a european style rapier (~34-38" blade), the fighter with the rapier, if schooled in it's use, would have a HUGE advantage.
Being, he would fight with the point, as the rapier is a thrusting weapon, and a 38" blade at arm's length would put the fencer well out of reach of the fighter with the katana. The katana armed fighter would have to close distance, and not get skewered in the process. I could see the kendoka doing a beat attack to beat the fencer's blade and then close distance, but a smart fencer would know that he has a 'range' advantage, and the kendoka would have to close. Expecting a beat attack, the fencer simply disengages on the beat and lunges - kendoa-kabob! |
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Posted: 4/4/2006 10:29:34 AM EDT
[#26]
Now we are entering into "stylistic" arguments. A practioneer of Iai Jutsu would make the claim that he would always win due to his faster, more efficient draw and cut. He would argue the European fencer would be killed everytime before he could even produce a weapon. And while there is some merit to the "quick draw - first kill" argument it is, like your above argument, subjective to the relative skill of the fencer. |
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Posted: 4/4/2006 11:13:44 AM EDT
[#27]
It depends. It it were me doing kendo vs. me doing fencing, it would be a double kill, no win situation. |
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Posted: 4/4/2006 11:24:27 AM EDT
[#28]
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Posted: 4/4/2006 11:37:00 AM EDT
[#29]
This was covered in the episode of Highlander entitled "Duende", and it had some of the most amazing choreographed swordplay ever on screen. BTW, the guy with the katana won at the end, but that's just because it was only season 4 and they couldn't let McCleod get killed
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Posted: 4/4/2006 11:52:28 AM EDT
[#30]
I would think any later period Euro thrusting weapon, or even lightweight cutting weapons would be inappropriate for immortals whose objective was to cut off heads. I kept waiting for the guy in that series that would just net or rope people and take an axe to their heads - or better yet - a guillotine. |
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Posted: 4/4/2006 11:54:17 AM EDT
[#31]
Yeah - chloroform (or some other anastetic) and a guillotine (or a hacksaw) always seemed like it would be a lot easier. I guess immortality and intelligence aren't necessarily correlated. |
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Posted: 4/4/2006 12:06:01 PM EDT
[#32]
You wouldn't even need to go that far. The immortals were quite succeptable to injury, they simply recovered faster. Shooting them and then decapitating them would likely work. Heck, a .45 to the head would probably count as a decapitation. |
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Posted: 4/4/2006 12:09:59 PM EDT
[#33]
There was a pretty good movie with Harvey Kietel and one of the Carradine brothers, might have been called the Duelests, lots of sword play with different swords.
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Posted: 4/4/2006 12:10:24 PM EDT
[#34]
My buddy who was really into that series tells me they actually had a guy do something similar - he'd hack off their head before their body had a chance to recover from a hail of gunshots. 'Course, that could have just been us BSing about what should be on the show combined with my early onset dementia. |
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Posted: 4/4/2006 12:12:54 PM EDT
[#35]
That would be Keith Carradine, and the movie is "The Duellists." OUTSTANDING film - the visuals alone are worth the DVD price. I lack the expertise to critique the technical apsects of the swordplay - I can only say it was "cool." That's one of Ridley Scott's movies, by the way. |
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Posted: 4/4/2006 12:15:07 PM EDT
[#36]
Here's another question - did it not occur to any of those immortals to wear a turtleneck with a kevlar/steel-reinforced neck? Heck, in the middle ages they could have worn some good chain mail around their neck - like a chastity belt, but for your head.  |
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Posted: 4/4/2006 12:15:36 PM EDT
[#37]
If I was an immortal, my opponents would show up to the duel I challanged them too, and I wouldn't appear. After waiting for awhile, they would return to their car and when they turned the key my car bomb would detonate. I figure most likely their head would get blown off, along with most of the rest of their body, and if they were still alive, it shouldn't be that hard to finish the job as they are trying to regenerate or whatever they do. |
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Posted: 4/4/2006 2:13:30 PM EDT
[#38]
You mean like this? en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Woman_wearing_chainmail.jpg |
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Posted: 4/4/2006 2:21:42 PM EDT
[#39]
There was an episode where a child was struck by a death blow and become immortal so he was stuck in a child's body forever. He used guile to kill people and would render them helpless, then cut off their heads. |
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Posted: 4/4/2006 2:35:43 PM EDT
[#40]
So why were the highlanders killing their fellow immortals? I never got into that horrible, horrible movie or TV series. Based on the people I knew who liked it, I always figured the whole immortal angle was a favorite fantasy for them because they wanted to be able to have anal sex without fear of AIDS.
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Posted: 4/4/2006 2:40:41 PM EDT
[#41]
Well, I am glad there are a few epeeists here.
I, too, competed at Nationals (once, in Division III men's Epee), and yes I know that "Summer Nationals" are not "Nationals"....I am simplifying it for the profane. I believe there was only one real period in history when any combat such as katana v. rapier took place, and that was from 1600-1800 Japan. No doubt some Portuguese were able to kill samurai, but it was likely they did it with a pistol. However, throughout history there were disparities in weaponry and style. Still, people managed to be effective. Fencers (and probably kenjutsu practitioners too) learn that you can be blinding on your bladework, but if you have no sense of distance and footwork, you are a dead man. I would say that the blade or style is less important than the comparative skill level of the warrior in question. But, I still shudder to think of trying to parry a katana with my epee. I would rather rely on staying outside their reach (distance) and covering my distance with a good lunge. |
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Posted: 4/4/2006 2:41:25 PM EDT
[#42]
The movie sucked because the director has no clue what he wss doing. The story, though, was unique and appealing. I mean, you gotta love any excuse to have guys lugging huge swords around. The TV series was not really related to the movie (of course, neither was the sequel to the movie). Not all the immortals were vicious killers - but some were, since the idea was the last remaining immortal would get "the prize." |
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Posted: 4/4/2006 2:42:50 PM EDT
[#43]
"The prize"? |
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Posted: 4/4/2006 2:45:39 PM EDT
[#44]
Well, yeah, if you want to get into that... I've seen an expert Iaido student demonstrate about 30 kata of that form, and it was amazing! If the supposed fencer/kendoka duel started at contact (within arms reach) range, then a kendoka schooled in Iaido would have the fencer gutted and quartered before the rapier was halfway out of it's scabbard. Of course, then, if the fencer kept his wits about him, he would know that range/distance was his friend, and wouldn't get close enough for the kendoka to strike. I think really, who would win would differ based on many different possible scenarios, and that either style of combat, and each weapon, have their own great advantages and disadvantages. I wish there were a Iaido teacher in Austin... the closest I've found was San Antonio, and that's a little far for me to commute. Plus I work nights... I couldn't get into any classes even if I wanted to. |
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Posted: 4/4/2006 2:50:10 PM EDT
[#45]
It was never made clear that I know of - but at the end of the first movie they strongly hint that is is some sort of omniscience or access to some collective consciousness. I get the feeing the original movie script might be revealing - much of the sunstance of the story was removed and replaced with a prolonged music video feel by the dumbass director (who, coincidentally, had only previously directed music videos). What was this thread about again? The thing is, the immortals really didn't know either - but some were willing to kill off the others just to find out - not very nice people. |
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Posted: 4/4/2006 3:04:24 PM EDT
[#46]
The really, really really, terrible sequels got more into that. Yeah, it was some kind of transcendence thing. |
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Posted: 4/4/2006 3:58:45 PM EDT
[#47]
Nothing personal, but ARMA renaissance fighting compared to modern fencing is like comparing airsoft to USPSA/IPSC . |
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Posted: 4/4/2006 4:46:18 PM EDT
[#48]
Yeah we called 'em RSB's for "Renaissance Stick Beaters"....and then we'd kick 'em in the nuts and run away. 
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Posted: 4/4/2006 4:49:21 PM EDT
[#49]
Not to pile on too much, but I also question the writer's experience with kendo. We occasionally had a couple of the renaissance types on campus try kendo, and they INVARIABLY drifed away after a ocuple of sessions - because the first year of kendo is all about very boring footwork and stance and stuff like that, but all they seem to want to do is flail around and do so immediately. 
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Posted: 4/4/2006 7:56:11 PM EDT
[#50]
And with that you have arrived at the inevitible and obvious conclusion. Which is why both styles STILL exist. |
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