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Posted: 3/31/2006 6:22:36 PM EDT
It just befuzzles me.

Link Posted: 3/31/2006 6:24:06 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/31/2006 6:24:26 PM EDT by nirvana]
they could'nt control it very well in the wrong seat?
Link Posted: 3/31/2006 6:25:01 PM EDT
Because you touch yourself at night.
Link Posted: 3/31/2006 6:28:19 PM EDT
They don't know any better,,
Link Posted: 3/31/2006 6:31:27 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/1/2006 5:23:37 PM EDT by buckmaw]
To fly, you need to use your left hand for the collective, in doing that, your ability to "lean" out and look is hampered. It gives the pilot more ability to control the airframe.

Oh remember..

Helo's dont fly.... They beat the air into submission...
Link Posted: 3/31/2006 7:00:08 PM EDT
I would guess this:
If the tailrotor goes out the nose of the helicopter will turn left because the pilot is using more left pedal for straight flight. I would think that if the bird turns left it would benefit him/her to sit right seat for reaction purposes.
Also, If I'm not mistaken in an auto rotation the bird will be flying in right hand circles, a right seat pilot will be able to see/ judge better to complete the landing.

Maybe a pilot can answer this instead of someone who just fixed them a decade ago.
Link Posted: 3/31/2006 7:02:23 PM EDT
because they do
Link Posted: 3/31/2006 7:03:54 PM EDT

Originally Posted By buckmaw:
To fly, you need to use your left and for the collective, in doing that, your ability to "lean" out and look is hampered. It gives the pilot more ability to control the airframe.

Oh remember..

Helo's dont fly.... They beat the air into submission...



+1



Plus - some of the earliest two-seat helicpoters only had one collective control - in the middle between the seats... the aircraft commander used it with his/her left hand, the copilot with their right (as a backup only).
Link Posted: 3/31/2006 7:04:01 PM EDT
Here is the reason:

Helicopter Pilots sit in the right seat because the right hand is used for flying...Just like the fast movers and the left hand is used for power. The collective(thats the stick in the left hand thats used for power)is realitively stable, meaning it doesnt have to be continusly moved like the cyclic(thats the "joystick"). In forward flight that means the pilot can tune radios and pick his nose while keeping his flying hand on the cyclic stick. It has nothing to do with CG or controlability. Occasionally you will see the pilot in the left seat. This is mostly for sling-load work. The left seat allows the pilot to lean over the collective to see the load.

The real question is-Why do airplanes put the pilot in the left seat? This means his flying hand is on the throttles and his power hand is on the yoke.
Link Posted: 3/31/2006 7:06:23 PM EDT

Originally Posted By fnfal_308:
It just befuzzles me.




Because they're not going to sit in the WRONG seat!

DUh!



HH
Link Posted: 3/31/2006 7:07:12 PM EDT
You know, I've been flying (fixed wing GA) since right after High School (mid 70's), have been a CFI, have a shitload of books on aviation in my library and that is a question I've never heard asked or seen explained and it's never even crossed my mind before reading this thread.

Tagged for an answer.
Link Posted: 3/31/2006 7:13:06 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Snakedriver:
Here is the reason:

Helicopter Pilots sit in the right seat because the right hand is used for flying...Just like the fast movers and the left hand is used for power. The collective(thats the stick in the left hand thats used for power)is realitively stable, meaning it doesnt have to be continusly moved like the cyclic(thats the "joystick"). In forward flight that means the pilot can tune radios and pick his nose while keeping his flying hand on the cyclic stick. It has nothing to do with CG or controlability. Occasionally you will see the pilot in the left seat. This is mostly for sling-load work. The left seat allows the pilot to lean over the collective to see the load.

The real question is-Why do airplanes put the pilot in the left seat? This means his flying hand is on the throttles and his power hand is on the yoke.



Thanks for that answer, beats my baffle 'em with bullshit answer.
Link Posted: 3/31/2006 7:15:28 PM EDT
Because they are too damn hard to fly standing up!!!
Link Posted: 3/31/2006 7:16:45 PM EDT
Easy. Primary control is cyclic and in the right hand. Collective an power are an in the left hand.

Old birds had but one collective/power control, shared between the PIC and secondary. And since most pilots are right handed , the right seat is logical for PIC.
Link Posted: 3/31/2006 7:18:00 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Snakedriver:
Here is the reason:

Helicopter Pilots sit in the right seat because the right hand is used for flying...Just like the fast movers and the left hand is used for power. The collective(thats the stick in the left hand thats used for power)is realitively stable, meaning it doesnt have to be continusly moved like the cyclic(thats the "joystick"). In forward flight that means the pilot can tune radios and pick his nose while keeping his flying hand on the cyclic stick. It has nothing to do with CG or controlability. Occasionally you will see the pilot in the left seat. This is mostly for sling-load work. The left seat allows the pilot to lean over the collective to see the load.

The real question is-Why do airplanes put the pilot in the left seat? This means his flying hand is on the throttles and his power hand is on the yoke.



now that the real reason is out, the thread can run to 5 pages with +1 answers....
Link Posted: 3/31/2006 7:21:02 PM EDT
... some sit in the backseat

Link Posted: 3/31/2006 7:22:48 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Napoleon_Tanerite:

now that the real reason is out, the thread can run to 5 pages with +1 answers....



It takes one to know one.
Link Posted: 3/31/2006 8:28:05 PM EDT

Originally Posted By divkat9:
I would guess this:
If the tailrotor goes out the nose of the helicopter will turn left because the pilot is using more left pedal for straight flight. I would think that if the bird turns left it would benefit him/her to sit right seat for reaction purposes.
Also, If I'm not mistaken in an auto rotation the bird will be flying in right hand circles, a right seat pilot will be able to see/ judge better to complete the landing.

Maybe a pilot can answer this instead of someone who just fixed them a decade ago.



That is very dependant on what way the rotors spin, no? And is completely pointless for choppers like Ka-29 or CH-47.

NTM
Link Posted: 3/31/2006 8:44:44 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Snakedriver:
Here is the reason:

Helicopter Pilots sit in the right seat because the right hand is used for flying...Just like the fast movers and the left hand is used for power. The collective(thats the stick in the left hand thats used for power)is realitively stable, meaning it doesnt have to be continusly moved like the cyclic(thats the "joystick"). In forward flight that means the pilot can tune radios and pick his nose while keeping his flying hand on the cyclic stick. It has nothing to do with CG or controlability. Occasionally you will see the pilot in the left seat. This is mostly for sling-load work. The left seat allows the pilot to lean over the collective to see the load.

The real question is-Why do airplanes put the pilot in the left seat? This means his flying hand is on the throttles and his power hand is on the yoke.



Most two seaters with the throttles in the middle (so as to be accessible by both seats) also have a yoke for control vice a joystick, so it's not as hard to work power and control the airplane. Fighters and two-seated bombers with joysticks (B-1, B-2) have dual throttle quadrants so each station has left-hand throttles.
Link Posted: 3/31/2006 8:48:37 PM EDT

Originally Posted By buckmaw:
Oh remember..

Helo's dont fly.... They beat the air into submission...




I though it was cause they are so ugly the Earth repells them.
Link Posted: 3/31/2006 8:58:05 PM EDT
Just a funny story - I used to be an Enlisted instructor with the Navy for the C-12 aircraft (Beech King Air 200).

We used to get a lot of the station SAR helo pilots who wanted to get some sort of fixed wing experince, so they became C-12 pilots.

One time I was flying with a Marine H-46 pilot on his first fam flight.
He was in the left seat.

After boring holes in the sky it was time to do an hours worth of touch and goes, so on the first one I stood between the pilot and copilot and watched the fun.

On the first approach the Marine kept trying to "fly" the airplane with the throttles.
It took him three approaches and me reminding him "right hand throttles, left hand fly the airplane" calls before he got it.

The worst one was when he pulled back on the throttles trying to get the nose to flair.
Link Posted: 3/31/2006 9:00:26 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Snakedriver:
Here is the reason:

Helicopter Pilots sit in the right seat because the right hand is used for flying...Just like the fast movers and the left hand is used for power. The collective(thats the stick in the left hand thats used for power)is realitively stable, meaning it doesnt have to be continusly moved like the cyclic(thats the "joystick"). In forward flight that means the pilot can tune radios and pick his nose while keeping his flying hand on the cyclic stick. It has nothing to do with CG or controlability. Occasionally you will see the pilot in the left seat. This is mostly for sling-load work. The left seat allows the pilot to lean over the collective to see the load.

The real question is-Why do airplanes put the pilot in the left seat? This means his flying hand is on the throttles and his power hand is on the yoke.



Drivers also sit in the left seat. It is due to the right-of-way which means to literally pass on the right. You have a better view of whom you are passing on the right, when sitting on the left. Besides, fixed wing pilots have enough coordination to fly in either seat. Pluuuusss, not everyone is right handed.
Link Posted: 3/31/2006 10:09:16 PM EDT

Originally Posted By No_Serfing:
It is due to the right-of-way which means to literally pass on the right.



What worries me is that I can't tell if you're being serious or not. "Right of way" = "Right to travel along the way". (Originally the King's Highway, later the term went to railways as well)

The whole drive on right/left thing is rather fascinating.

This is an excellent site on the origins.

Clicky

NTM
Link Posted: 3/31/2006 10:25:33 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/31/2006 10:30:08 PM EDT by BillofRights]

Originally Posted By Snakedriver:


The real question is-Why do airplanes put the pilot in the left seat? This means his flying hand is on the throttles and his power hand is on the yoke.




Speaking for fixed wing,
Left hand/ Right hand on the yoke makes no difference. I have trained lots of pilots in both seats, and they get used to it pretty quick. After a little while, you don't even notice the change, (except for the typing on the FMS)

Link Posted: 3/31/2006 10:28:10 PM EDT
I thought I read it was due to the fact that Sikorsky set up his first tandem seat helicopter with the pilot on the right, and co-pilot left. Stayed that way.

Steven
Link Posted: 3/31/2006 10:42:05 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/31/2006 10:45:31 PM EDT by Da_Bunny]
In Vietnam, the Aircraft Commander/PIC flew the left seat and the pilot/copilot flew the right seat. The visibility is better in the left seat with fewer instruments. Landing in a field of stumps or a gap in the trees required good visibility and some teamwork. The left seater focused on formation flying and the mission, while the right seater handled the radios, maps and monitored the instruments.

In the Cobra, the backseat was the primary seat because it had the rocket sight and radios. The front seater fired the turret weapons and had better visibility. The controls in the rear seat had better hydraulic leverage than the front seat controls, which you could barely move. From the back, you couldn't see down/forward or under the aircraft when you were landing, so you picked two objects on the ground and landed between them using the side windows. All pilots had to learn both seats.
Link Posted: 3/31/2006 11:07:00 PM EDT
Is the Collective and trottle mixed on real Helis?
Link Posted: 4/1/2006 12:14:43 AM EDT

Originally Posted By JBowles:
Is the Collective and trottle mixed on real Helis?



It depends, on the oldest and simplest recips, no, you have to roll on the throttle at the end of the collective motorcycle style. On all modern turbine helos, its linked, though you can "trim" the throttle with buttons/switches.
Link Posted: 4/1/2006 12:53:45 AM EDT
Because Walker, Texas Ranger is on the left seat.
Link Posted: 4/1/2006 1:34:45 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/1/2006 1:47:46 AM EDT by Ross]
Whoa! That's some answers. The reality is quite simple.

As many pointed out, you fly with a cyclic and a collective. The collective is positioned on the left side of the seat because you use your left hand to operate it, usually. If you sit in the right seat, you don't have to climb over the friggin collective every time you get in and out, like you do on the co-pilot's side.

Since early helos were single pilot, they all started with the station on the right because it's the logical place to put the pilot because of the controls. When additional crew members were added, the configuration of right side being the pilot's station simply became convention.

You can fly as the PIC from either station in most any helo if there is a co-pilot in the other station. If you're single-pilot, then you can only fly from the PIC's station. Some exceptions are the aft facing pilot's seat in a Skycrane, and on a Maintenance Test Flight in a UH-60, where the MTP will sit in the left seat because of the power levers (what look like throttles) get messed with during engine checks. Training with an IP, FE, or ME, the instructor/evaluator ususally flys from the left seat and is also the PIC technically.

The pre-Z Cobra had the PIC in back and the CPG (co-pilot/gunner) in front because the sighting systems, and later the direct view optics requried the CPG to be in front becuase it was all "through the tube" viewing. In the AH-64, they could have had the PIC and CPG stations in either front or back because everything was digital and not a glass optic like the AH-1. The Army simply preferred for it to remain PIC in back/CPG in front. The AH-1Z has identical cockpits front and rear, and frankly it doesn't matter in that aircraft.

As a Huey PIC, I flew from either left or right depending on what we were doing and what we felt like doing. Alot of the time I'd switch seats with my CP simply out of boredom or so he coudl get equal time flying from the left side. We pretty much flew about the same amount of hours from either side. but that was just me. Some guys liked the left side, because in the Huey the insturment panel ended only partway in front of the left seat, so there was better visibility from the left than the right. As a Maintenance Test Pilot, I flew all MTF's from the right seat, which was required by regulation. If I went on a Cobra MTF, I flew from the front seat, as I wasn't Cobra qualified and the real Cobra pilot had to fly the MTF from the PIC's station in the rear anyway.

It just depends on what you're doing and the aircraft itself really nowdays, but the basic reason for the PIC's seat being on the right is simply because it's easier to get in and out from that side.
Link Posted: 4/1/2006 2:05:22 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/1/2006 2:10:19 AM EDT by bytor94]
Nope, none of those are right.

The real reason is that most people are right handed. Odds then are that the crew chief is a righty, and when the pilot does something dumb, it's easier for the chief to backhand him!

I almost had to do that once too. I did end up calling him a dipshit and made it my mission in life (just to possibly save it) to never fly with him again.
Link Posted: 4/1/2006 2:06:57 AM EDT
cause they can't fly one sitting in the the back.
Link Posted: 4/1/2006 2:17:55 AM EDT

Originally Posted By divkat9:
I would guess this:
If the tailrotor goes out the nose of the helicopter will turn left because the pilot is using more left pedal for straight flight. I would think that if the bird turns left it would benefit him/her to sit right seat for reaction purposes.
Also, If I'm not mistaken in an auto rotation the bird will be flying in right hand circles, a right seat pilot will be able to see/ judge better to complete the landing.

Maybe a pilot can answer this instead of someone who just fixed them a decade ago.



Ross has it right. I have flown a couple of helos in which the main rotor spins clockwise and you have to add right pedal with increased power. Tail rotors suck whichever way they work.
Link Posted: 4/1/2006 2:31:24 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Winston_Wolf:
... some sit in the backseat

static.howstuffworks.com/gif/apache-helicopter-49.jpg




Boy, that cockpit has changed since my Apache days.......1992-93!
Link Posted: 4/1/2006 2:37:44 AM EDT
I'm starting my rotor instruction soon and this thread is getting me totally psyched.
Link Posted: 4/1/2006 7:31:07 AM EDT
Heli's don't spin in any direction when auto rotating. They have to land right away but do it in a controlled fasion as they normally do. It is always an emergency and you only get one shot but it flies straight. When a heli is spinning in right to left or whatever it is usually attributed to tail rotor failure.
Link Posted: 4/1/2006 7:47:23 AM EDT

Originally Posted By QUIB:

Originally Posted By Winston_Wolf:
... some sit in the backseat

static.howstuffworks.com/gif/apache-helicopter-49.jpg




Boy, that cockpit has changed since my Apache days.......1992-93!



heh.. I was thinking the same thing there Quib... Way differant!

Mark.

Link Posted: 4/1/2006 4:28:01 PM EDT

Originally Posted By ten-ring:
Heli's don't spin in any direction when auto rotating. They have to land right away but do it in a controlled fasion as they normally do. It is always an emergency and you only get one shot but it flies straight. When a heli is spinning in right to left or whatever it is usually attributed to tail rotor failure.



I didn't say they spin when autorotating, they spin when the tailrotor goes out if action is not taken.
Maybe I've misunderstood you but the bird doesn't fly straight in autorotation, it circles. A helo can't glide in.
Link Posted: 4/1/2006 4:35:24 PM EDT
Link Posted: 4/1/2006 4:36:07 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/1/2006 4:44:01 PM EDT by Dave_A]

Originally Posted By Winston_Wolf:
... some sit in the backseat

static.howstuffworks.com/gif/apache-helicopter-49.jpg



So the gunner/copilot can see targets better (important when your targeting system is linked to your line-of-sight, vis-a-vis gunnery monacle)...
Link Posted: 4/1/2006 4:48:47 PM EDT

Originally Posted By divkat9:
Originally Posted By ten-ring:

Maybe I've misunderstood you but the bird doesn't fly straight in autorotation, it circles. A helo can't glide in.



Damn - evidently I've been doing in wrong for a long time. I'll ask somebody about the circling thing.
Link Posted: 4/1/2006 4:51:54 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/1/2006 4:56:02 PM EDT by divkat9]

Originally Posted By H46Driver:

Originally Posted By divkat9:
Originally Posted By ten-ring:

Maybe I've misunderstood you but the bird doesn't fly straight in autorotation, it circles. A helo can't glide in.



Damn - evidently I've been doing in wrong for a long time. I'll ask somebody about the circling thing.



Are you saying that in autorotation the helo continues to fly in straight line? I was under the impression that you would circle the bird in order to descend in a controlled manner while keeping the blade speed up.
Link Posted: 4/1/2006 5:00:23 PM EDT

Originally Posted By divkat9:

Are you saying that in autorotation the helo continues to fly in straight line?



Depends where the intended landing site is. If it is straight ahead then that's where the bird is pointed. It is the reversal of air flow through the rotor disc that spins (autorotates) the blades. A hard turn will g-load the bird and cause rotor rpm to rise if the pilot doesn't pull collective, but descent rate goes up when you do that.

Sorry if I was too sarcastic - some of the stuff I read here just cracks me up.
Link Posted: 4/1/2006 5:22:46 PM EDT

Originally Posted By M-60:

Originally Posted By QUIB:

Originally Posted By Winston_Wolf:
... some sit in the backseat

static.howstuffworks.com/gif/apache-helicopter-49.jpg




Boy, that cockpit has changed since my Apache days.......1992-93!



heh.. I was thinking the same thing there Quib... Way differant!

Mark.




Hey Mark! Haven't seen you post in a while! Yea, this is what I remember the Apache cockpit looking like.



Quib
"Aero Scout"
Link Posted: 4/1/2006 7:24:52 PM EDT

Originally Posted By H46Driver:

Originally Posted By divkat9:

Are you saying that in autorotation the helo continues to fly in straight line?



Depends where the intended landing site is. If it is straight ahead then that's where the bird is pointed. It is the reversal of air flow through the rotor disc that spins (autorotates) the blades. A hard turn will g-load the bird and cause rotor rpm to rise if the pilot doesn't pull collective, but descent rate goes up when you do that.

Sorry if I was too sarcastic - some of the stuff I read here just cracks me up.



There are indeed some pretty bizarre concepts put forward throughout this thread.

Control of the aircraft is the same with the engine off, as it is in a powered descent. If I were 10,000ft and put the collective full down, or if I rolled the engine off, the actual effect is the same and control of the aircraft is similar. It's just with the engine off, your options are limited. Control itself is the same with the enigne off or on. The hydrualic pump is connected to the transmission, so you still have complete control even with the engine off.

There is no reason for circling unless you need to maneuver to make your intended point of landing. Maneuvering, other than maintaining a straight, minimum rate-of desecent speed, will reduce the druation and distance you can autorotate.

The autorotation RPM is individually set on each aircraft. That is set by changing the pitch in the blades on the ground by adjusting various things (depending on the aircraft) to increase/decrease drag during autorotation and therefore change the RPMs of the blade. That RPM is set from data collected during the previous test-flight and is done for straight and level flight, at a specific speed, with the aircraft in trim. So when you enter autorotation, the aircraft is already "set-up" to do a perfect autorotation straight ahead.

So basically the helicopter will autorotate in whatever direction you desire and circling is certainly not required.
Link Posted: 4/1/2006 7:29:27 PM EDT
I stand corrected, thanks for clearing it up for me.
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