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Posted: 3/31/2006 5:09:25 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/31/2006 5:14:05 PM EDT by Ky_Bob]
We are remodeling our kitchen and changing from an electric stove top to natural gas. We are also adding a dishwasher and a disposal. Since we no longer need the 220 line going to the stove top one of the electricians suggested that we could split that into two 20 amp circuits, one for the disposal and one for the dishwasher.

One of the other electricians said that the heavier wires for the 220 circuit would never fit into a 20 amp breaker in the panel and that two circuits sharing the neutral would not meet code. He wants to run two new 20 amp circuits, one for the disposal and one for the dish washer and pull out the 220 wiring altogether.

I do not know enough about house wiring to know who is full of shit. I checked both of these guys credentials and both stated they would "pull a permit" and get their work inspected.

What do I do? Reusing the 220 copper as two 20 amp circuits will save several hundred dollars but I do not want to create a potentially dangerous situation.

Thanks,

Bob
Link Posted: 3/31/2006 5:18:41 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/31/2006 5:28:12 PM EDT by TheWind]
there is alot to it, my 220V outlet is 8 guage wire, uit would be to big for any normal fixture. And it is not so simple, the wiring is different, you could use the space for 2 20 amp breakers, Just leave the 220 wire in place. My new range uses both Gas and 220V to run.
Link Posted: 3/31/2006 5:21:33 PM EDT
according to NEC you can share the nuetral conductor. If the wire has 2 hots, 1 nuetral and a ground wire you can "split it and have two circiuts." If the wire has 2 hot wires and a ground, with NO nuetral(white) wire do not try it. I have state license. in TN BTW.
Link Posted: 3/31/2006 5:31:11 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/31/2006 5:32:30 PM EDT by Ky_Bob]

Originally Posted By zoe17:
according to NEC you can share the nuetral conductor. If the wire has 2 hots, 1 nuetral and a ground wire you can "split it and have two circiuts." If the wire has 2 hot wires and a ground, with NO nuetral(white) wire do not try it. I have state license. in TN BTW.



I think he said it had a red, white, and a black. The house was built in 1959 and this is the original flex conduit wiring. In the breaker box it is a ganged set of 20's or 30's.

I will look in the morning to be sure. We have storms coming into the area so I will have to wait until then.

Thanks,
Bob
Link Posted: 3/31/2006 5:56:34 PM EDT
I'm not an electrician so I will not comment on how this violates the elcetrical code but I've done a bunck of wiring in my house. I learned from my dad who was an electrician way back when but never got into the trade and chose a different career.

Yes the wires are there. It can be donne but probably shouldnt' be done. It wouldn't be too difficult to split them up in the kitchen to the different appliances. I'm guessing they would be split up into two 20 amp breakers at the box. To use the stove breaker to service the disposal and DW would be definitly dangerous and wrong.

On the other hand it probably would not be too difficult to pull two 12 gauge lined through your house. I don't know our set up but I'm guessing the panel is in the basement and your kitchen is on the 1st floor. With an unfinished basement or drop ceiling this would be pretty straight forward. And to code. You could probably used holes already drilled through your joists to get to your kitchen. You can run the wire yourself and save on labor time and just have the electrician hook it up if you are not comfortable with that part. Just leave about 5 feet on each end and he will be happy. He will just disconnect the big stove wire and leave it there just in case.

Also as The wind stated, his stove uses 220. Some need 110. This can be done with the old wire if need be but may need a new tun to be up to code.

Several hundred dollars is a lot for the wire, breakers, recepticle/switch for disposal. The DW probably is hardwired. I have no idea what labor would be.

Good luck. Also do an internet search for "Self Help forums" Pick the one that say Powered by VBulliton or something like that. I've found that site to answere a lot of Home Improvement questions. They are quick to respond and have knowledgeable guys there.

Link Posted: 3/31/2006 6:19:26 PM EDT
That 45 year old wiring isn't up to code even for an electric stove. All new elect (220/240V)ranges are supposed to be 4 wire, 2 hots, a neutral, and a ground.

The wireing I have run into of that vintage has crumbling insulation, and corroded connectors. You will be better off running new circuits. If you can't do it yourself, work a little OT and get the cash to pay for a modern setup.

I am a little sensitive about older wires and circuits right now as my neighbor's house burned to the ground monday due to faulty wiring.
Link Posted: 3/31/2006 6:23:57 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/31/2006 6:24:57 PM EDT by Ky_Bob]

Originally Posted By ar-wrench:
That 45 year old wiring isn't up to code even for an electric stove. All new elect (220/240V)ranges are supposed to be 4 wire, 2 hots, a neutral, and a ground.

The wiring I have run into of that vintage has crumbling insulation, and corroded connectors. You will be better off running new circuits. If you can't do it yourself, work a little OT and get the cash to pay for a modern setup.

I am a little sensitive about older wires and circuits right now as my neighbor's house burned to the ground Monday due to faulty wiring.



First of all, I am switching to gas so I do not need the 220 at all. We are talking about re-using it for 110.

Second of all, I have the money, that does not automatically mean I want to spend it.

Third, I have not worked OT for 15+ years. I am a salary kind of guy.

However, I am leaning to having it rewired completely.

Bob
Link Posted: 3/31/2006 6:32:05 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Ky_Bob:

The house was built in 1959 and this is the original flex conduit wiring.




OLD ASSED wiring. Replace it.
Link Posted: 3/31/2006 6:34:28 PM EDT

Originally Posted By fight4yourrights:

Originally Posted By Ky_Bob:

The house was built in 1959 and this is the original flex conduit wiring.




OLD ASSED wiring. Replace it.



So are you saying that ALL the house wiring should be replaced?

Bob
Link Posted: 3/31/2006 6:44:39 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/31/2006 6:48:51 PM EDT by JarheadPatriot]

Originally Posted By Ky_Bob:
We are remodeling our kitchen and changing from an electric stove top to natural gas. We are also adding a dishwasher and a disposal. Since we no longer need the 220 line going to the stove top one of the electricians suggested that we could split that into two 20 amp circuits, one for the disposal and one for the dishwasher.

One of the other electricians said that the heavier wires for the 220 circuit would never fit into a 20 amp breaker in the panel and that two circuits sharing the neutral would not meet code. He wants to run two new 20 amp circuits, one for the disposal and one for the dish washer and pull out the 220 wiring altogether.

I do not know enough about house wiring to know who is full of shit. I checked both of these guys credentials and both stated they would "pull a permit" and get their work inspected.

What do I do? Reusing the 220 copper as two 20 amp circuits will save several hundred dollars but I do not want to create a potentially dangerous situation.

Thanks,

Bob



Well, well, well.......this is funny....both of these guys are partially correct....while Electrician #1 was right in the sense that a 220v line is indeed two hots and one neutral, it must also HAVE A GROUND, other wise it's a 208v.....since your house was wired in 1959, and you stated that the wiring in the stove outlet was "in the original flex wiring", I will GUARANTEE that there is no ground wire in the flex. If you try to use this wire for two separate 110v lines, there WILL be problems with getting the wire into 20 amp breakers, in order to do so, some strands will need to be cut from the wire, and electricity takes the path of least resistance.....which in stranded wire is the OUTER strands, also, you won't have a proper gound path for your new appliances.

Electrician #2 is partially correct also.....but in the National Electric Code you can have the disposal AND the dishwasher on THE SAME circuit.....the disposer is a "momentary use" appliance.....meaning you only run it for a few seconds at a time.......and very rarely would you run the disposal AND the dishwasher simutaneously...

I've been wiring homes and businesses for 17 years, and here's how I would do it:
1) Leave existing stove wiring alone. you never know if you may go back to the electric stove. The only reason to remove it would be if your new kitchen layout has the stove in a new location. Also, if you ever sell the house, a potential buyer may like having the option of gas or electric.
2) If your bent on having the disposer and dishwasher on SEPARATE circuits, than have your electrician run a 12/3 romex to the area, and terminate it as he would normally in that situation. Otherwise, use one circuit from the 12/3 to run the dishwasher/disposer, and use the other circuit for either a dedicated refrigerator circuit, (which I doubt you have), OR a small appliance branch circuit for countertop GFCIs, (which I also doubt you have).

Also.......unless your guy is rewiring THE WHOLE kitchen, running one appliance circuit shouldn't run you "several hundred dollars"......I'm guessing, without ever seeing the job, that the wire is less than 75 feet to run from the panelbox to the appliance location, (about $45 bucks or less)......boxes are about $1 each.......receptacles are less than $1 each(20 amp recept's are about $2.25 each)....coverplates are about $.75......this is about a 1-2 hour job , TOPS......Don't let yourself get ripped off.

PS- Good luck. And I know it is hard to take the advice of someone you have never met....but this is my life, and my career, (17 years) and I would never steer ANYONE wrong on this, as it is a potentially hazardous situation. I am not bidding this job, therefore I have nothing to lose, or to gain. I hope you find someone trustworthy to do your work.



EDIT: This kind of work always opens up a can of worms, in that your home was wired 47 years ago. And home energy demands have changed drastically since then. The quality of materials, and the general safety aspects of the NEC are much better today also.
Link Posted: 3/31/2006 6:46:03 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Ky_Bob:

Originally Posted By fight4yourrights:

Originally Posted By Ky_Bob:

The house was built in 1959 and this is the original flex conduit wiring.




OLD ASSED wiring. Replace it.



So are you saying that ALL the house wiring should be replaced?

Bob



Just the wiring you are modifying. I would think you want those circuits the be gound fault interupt (GFI) since they are appliances which use water. Just replace with correct stuff per electrician for resale purposes.
Link Posted: 3/31/2006 6:51:55 PM EDT
Link Posted: 3/31/2006 6:52:20 PM EDT

Originally Posted By clippen:

Originally Posted By Ky_Bob:

Originally Posted By fight4yourrights:

Originally Posted By Ky_Bob:

The house was built in 1959 and this is the original flex conduit wiring.




OLD ASSED wiring. Replace it.



So are you saying that ALL the house wiring should be replaced?

Bob



Just the wiring you are modifying. I would think you want those circuits the be gound fault interupt (GFI) since they are appliances which use water. Just replace with correct stuff per electrician for resale purposes.




you don't put motor driven appliances on GFCI circuits.....the motors draw 125% of power at startup, and then the load comes down during use.......the initial 125% surge will consistantly pop the GFCI.......all NON-MOTORIZED circuits within 6 feet of water should be GFCI protected....also ALL small appliance countertop circuits.
Link Posted: 3/31/2006 6:54:00 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/31/2006 6:59:17 PM EDT by dalesimpson]

Originally Posted By JarheadPatriot:

Well, well, well.......this is funny....both of these guys are partially correct....while Electrician #1 was right in the sense that a 220v line is indeed two hots and one neutral, it must also HAVE A GROUND, other wise it's a 208v.....since your house was wired in 1959, and you stated that the wiring in the stove outlet was "in the original flex wiring", I will GUARANTEE that there is no ground wire in the flex. If you try to use this wire for two separate 110v lines, there WILL be problems with getting the wire into 20 amp breakers, in order to do so, some strands will need to be cut from the wire, and electricity takes the path of least resistance.....which in stranded wire is the OUTER strands, also, you won't have a proper gound path for your new appliances.




I am not sure how the wiring is where you live, but here in residential you get 220V hot to hot the grounding or grounded conductor don't even come into play. You get 208V when you have 3 phases of 120V coming in on your 3 phase service, then it is 208V from phase to phase. The voltage coming into your house is a single 240V phase that is center tapped to make 120V from hot to ground or neutral (they are at the same potential if fed from your main and not a sub panel) and 220V (some say 240V) from hot to hot. We only use 120/208 in commercial and industrial applications.

ETA Sorry, but the misinformation made me forget the real question at hand here. My suggestion, as a licensed electrician would be to not reuse the range cable and to remove it and pull another circuit or two for your kitchen. I always over-circuit a kitchen. I figure that it's better to have too many circuits than not enough.
Link Posted: 3/31/2006 7:09:27 PM EDT
Wow! Lots of good info here. The house service was replaced less than two years ago so we have all the GFI's in place and operational.

I think I am going to go with the replacement option and have new circuits run. Better safe (and more expensive) than sorry.

Bob

Link Posted: 3/31/2006 7:28:34 PM EDT

Originally Posted By dalesimpson:

Originally Posted By JarheadPatriot:

Well, well, well.......this is funny....both of these guys are partially correct....while Electrician #1 was right in the sense that a 220v line is indeed two hots and one neutral, it must also HAVE A GROUND, other wise it's a 208v.....since your house was wired in 1959, and you stated that the wiring in the stove outlet was "in the original flex wiring", I will GUARANTEE that there is no ground wire in the flex. If you try to use this wire for two separate 110v lines, there WILL be problems with getting the wire into 20 amp breakers, in order to do so, some strands will need to be cut from the wire, and electricity takes the path of least resistance.....which in stranded wire is the OUTER strands, also, you won't have a proper gound path for your new appliances.




I am not sure how the wiring is where you live, but here in residential you get 220V hot to hot the grounding or grounded conductor don't even come into play. You get 208V when you have 3 phases of 120V coming in on your 3 phase service, then it is 208V from phase to phase. The voltage coming into your house is a single 240V phase that is center tapped to make 120V from hot to ground or neutral (they are at the same potential if fed from your main and not a sub panel) and 220V (some say 240V) from hot to hot. We only use 120/208 in commercial and industrial applications.

ETA Sorry, but the misinformation made me forget the real question at hand here. My suggestion, as a licensed electrician would be to not reuse the range cable and to remove it and pull another circuit or two for your kitchen. I always over-circuit a kitchen. I figure that it's better to have too many circuits than not enough.



you are right Dale....my mind was in "commercial" mode from the job I was on today......Sorry Bob, if I was misleading.....
Link Posted: 3/31/2006 7:34:50 PM EDT

Originally Posted By JarheadPatriot:

Originally Posted By dalesimpson:

Originally Posted By JarheadPatriot:

Well, well, well.......this is funny....both of these guys are partially correct....while Electrician #1 was right in the sense that a 220v line is indeed two hots and one neutral, it must also HAVE A GROUND, other wise it's a 208v.....since your house was wired in 1959, and you stated that the wiring in the stove outlet was "in the original flex wiring", I will GUARANTEE that there is no ground wire in the flex. If you try to use this wire for two separate 110v lines, there WILL be problems with getting the wire into 20 amp breakers, in order to do so, some strands will need to be cut from the wire, and electricity takes the path of least resistance.....which in stranded wire is the OUTER strands, also, you won't have a proper gound path for your new appliances.




I am not sure how the wiring is where you live, but here in residential you get 220V hot to hot the grounding or grounded conductor don't even come into play. You get 208V when you have 3 phases of 120V coming in on your 3 phase service, then it is 208V from phase to phase. The voltage coming into your house is a single 240V phase that is center tapped to make 120V from hot to ground or neutral (they are at the same potential if fed from your main and not a sub panel) and 220V (some say 240V) from hot to hot. We only use 120/208 in commercial and industrial applications.

ETA Sorry, but the misinformation made me forget the real question at hand here. My suggestion, as a licensed electrician would be to not reuse the range cable and to remove it and pull another circuit or two for your kitchen. I always over-circuit a kitchen. I figure that it's better to have too many circuits than not enough.



you are right Dale....my mind was in "commercial" mode from the job I was on today......Sorry Bob, if I was misleading.....



Huh, you are human too?
Thanks for replying all the same.

Bob
Link Posted: 3/31/2006 7:49:51 PM EDT

Originally Posted By zoe17:
according to NEC you can share the nuetral conductor. If the wire has 2 hots, 1 nuetral and a ground wire you can "split it and have two circiuts." If the wire has 2 hot wires and a ground, with NO nuetral(white) wire do not try it. I have state license. in TN BTW.



As I said if you have a ground wire it would be safe and per NEC. No ground do not do it, in theory you could use the black as hot, white as nuetral, and tape the red wire green and use for a ground.( per NEC) All single phase 120/240 volt secondary residental power by nature has a nuetral created with a transformer that actually has a floating nuetral,(creates the nuetral via windings) and therefor has to be bonded/ grounded. The nuetral is grounded to a copper conductor no smaller than #4 AWG for 200 ampere service, that is mechanical or cad welded to a ground rod, usually 5/8" x 8', buried in earth to have a resistance no higher than 5 ohms( i think 5), so what I am saying is.

If your house has no ground wires in the boxes/ romex/ MC cable, your nuetral is also acting as a ground. Because electrcity has to have potential to travel through a conductor, potential is from hot to ground, so in reality the nuetral wire is called the grounded conductor(NEC). The old way of grounding household electrical system was by bonding nuetral to copper water lines( not to good). So, if you have no ground in your wiring, the nuetral is your grounded conductor anyway. Yes, it needs to be changed if you wanna sink the $$$, does it have to be and is a life safety issue, no.(you have gfci right), so buy a cheap receptacle tester with a ground fault tester, see if they work.
Link Posted: 3/31/2006 7:58:32 PM EDT
I hear you man. I do everything from houses to paper mills and it gets very confusing when you deal with everything from 120V to 34,500V and lots of voltages in between in the course of a week. We are all human, I hope I didn't come across as a "dick".
Link Posted: 3/31/2006 8:06:19 PM EDT
No problem. I too do everything from Delta Faucet plants, Speedy lubes, and large 4000sq. feet homes, to wiring in gennys.( I also sell Kohler) I have a strong ind. 600v/480/ motor control background. I also have had Lutron Homeworks Interactive programming and installation as an offering in my company for 6 years now. No X10 junk, true serial RS 232 communication in high end automation. Crestron, Phast,etc. House wiring is boring until it is all controlled by keypads and serials strings, via a processor and mutiple dimming modules. and relays.

I never worked on the transmission side. In the right humidity high voltage can travel through free air to a potential from inches away, to scary for me.
Link Posted: 3/31/2006 8:12:09 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Ky_Bob:
Wow! Lots of good info here. The house service was replaced less than two years ago so we have all the GFI's in place and operational.

I think I am going to go with the replacement option and have new circuits run. Better safe (and more expensive) than sorry.

Bob




Now your thinking.
A couple hundred dollars is alot cheaper than a new house, even with fire insurance.
Link Posted: 3/31/2006 8:17:49 PM EDT
If you do rewire so there are 2 seperate hot circuts with a common neutral, make a note of it in the breaker panel. I got shocked once by that when I was replacing outlets in my house. I turned off the breaker for the hot, but the neutral ran thru the outlet, so when I broke the neutral circut (disconnected the wire from the plug), the path to the breaker box was no more, but luckly for the electricity I was a good second.
Link Posted: 3/31/2006 8:18:43 PM EDT

Originally Posted By dalesimpson:
I hear you man. I do everything from houses to paper mills and it gets very confusing when you deal with everything from 120V to 34,500V and lots of voltages in between in the course of a week. We are all human, I hope I didn't come across as a "dick".



Not at all......we all just want to make sure Bob gets the best deal for his money, and quality too......Maybe he should tell his electrician that he has a whole busload of friends with rifles......lol.......then they won't screw him.......
Link Posted: 3/31/2006 8:23:17 PM EDT

Originally Posted By NimmerMehr:
If you do rewire so there are 2 seperate hot circuts with a common neutral, make a note of it in the breaker panel. I got shocked once by that when I was replacing outlets in my house. I turned off the breaker for the hot, but the neutral ran thru the outlet, so when I broke the neutral circut (disconnected the wire from the plug), the path to the breaker box was no more, but luckly for the electricity I was a good second.



you became the victim of an open nuetral, try that with 277/ 3 phase, ouch.
Link Posted: 3/31/2006 9:33:59 PM EDT
I am a licensed electrician here in Texas...

Get the wiring replaced, ask the electricians doing the work to break the cost down of the new install.

Copper wiring is at an all time high now, but the boxes and receptacles are about the same.

1-2 hour job tops.

If it was my house, this is what I would do.

I am a cheap bastard, but I have had to re-wire burned out homes. Trust me you do not want this to happen.

Have them pull permits and get the inspection, that will cover you with your insurance company.

Bill
Link Posted: 4/1/2006 4:44:53 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Delta:
I am a licensed electrician here in Texas...

Get the wiring replaced, ask the electricians doing the work to break the cost down of the new install.

Copper wiring is at an all time high now, but the boxes and receptacles are about the same.

1-2 hour job tops.

If it was my house, this is what I would do.

I am a cheap bastard, but I have had to re-wire burned out homes. Trust me you do not want this to happen.

Have them pull permits and get the inspection, that will cover you with your insurance company.

Bill



Will do!

Thanks guys.

Bob


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