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Posted: 3/31/2006 6:46:37 AM EDT
Not buy... just own.

I say this only because in some states people don't even have the right to buy guns in the United States, only in THEIR state. But that's another discussion.

And the reason I ask is to bring up another question... is firearms ownership a "God" given right or at least a right that all people have... at least according to the US?
Link Posted: 3/31/2006 6:49:40 AM EDT

Originally Posted By pathfinder74:
Not buy... just own.

I say this only because in some states people don't even have the right to buy guns in the United States, only in THEIR state. But that's another discussion.

And the reason I ask is to bring up another question... is firearms ownership a "God" given right or at least a right that all people have... at least according to the US?



Does not matter as they souldnt be here in the first place!!!!
But I voted NO, edit teh poll to add "FUCK NO"!
Link Posted: 3/31/2006 6:50:57 AM EDT
NO.
Link Posted: 3/31/2006 7:02:42 AM EDT
Persons who enter the United States of American illegally are deliberately (knowingly) committing a crime.

People who deliberately commit crimes are criminals.

Criminals should not own guns.
Link Posted: 3/31/2006 7:07:22 AM EDT

Originally Posted By ODA_564:
Persons who enter the United States of American illegally are deliberately (knowingly) committing a crime.

People who deliberately commit crimes are criminals.

Criminals should not own guns.



+1
Link Posted: 3/31/2006 7:10:42 AM EDT

Originally Posted By pathfinder74:
Not buy... just own.

I say this only because in some states people don't even have the right to buy guns in the United States, only in THEIR state. But that's another discussion.

And the reason I ask is to bring up another question... is firearms ownership a "God" given right or at least a right that all people have... at least according to the US?



Illegal aliens cannot own firearms ANYWHERE in the USA - it's on the 4473

And it should stay that way...

'The People of the United States' does not include non-citizens...

IMHO non-citizens have 'privledges', not rights in this country - granted, we give the legal ones almost everything the constitution gives citizens (As it should be) but I do not concider illegal aliens to have rights of any kind, save for what international treaties require...
Link Posted: 3/31/2006 7:14:50 AM EDT
Doesnt matter if I think they should or shouldnt. They are okay with breaking the law obviously so they will get guns no matter what I think.

Criminals dont care about bans or laws
Link Posted: 3/31/2006 7:16:39 AM EDT
If they are here illegally, they should have NO rights, except the right to be grabbed up and sent back to their shithole...or live under rule 5.56
Link Posted: 3/31/2006 7:16:56 AM EDT
Hell no, they should be deported.
Link Posted: 3/31/2006 7:17:51 AM EDT
Anybody here illegally shouldn't be able to own a car or a house let alone a gun.
Link Posted: 3/31/2006 7:19:14 AM EDT
I checked Depends, under these rules:

1. They must check them into a police station and can only be signed out if:

2. Doing a drive by on Mexican or other Drug Dealing Gangs.

3. If (creatures from another planet) you know real invade.

4. Zombies get really bad.

5. If they want to snipe radical moslums....... spelled incorrecty for disrespect.
Link Posted: 3/31/2006 7:21:15 AM EDT
A good friend of mine committed a felony (OK several felonies) when he was a teenager. Nothing violent, but pretty darn stupid crap.

Anyway, he’s now 37, has a good job, a security clearance, a house, and a family. He can’t own a gun. His wife can’t own a gun unless it stays locked up all the time. If he even comes over for a visit, and I have a pistol that’s not locked up in my safe, then we are both committing a felony. I don’t drink enough for this to ever happen, but if I got drunk over at his place, and he took my keys, then technically we are both felons because he just gained possession to my firearms.

If he can’t own (or even be in the same house with) a gun, then why should illegal aliens be allowed to own guns? They are in the process of committing a crime every second they are in this country.
Link Posted: 3/31/2006 7:22:37 AM EDT

Originally Posted By ChickenKiller:
I checked Depends, under these rules:

1. They must check them into a police station and can only be signed out if:

2. Doing a drive by on Mexican or other Drug Dealing Gangs.

3. If (creatures from another planet) you know real invade.

4. Zombies get really bad.

5. If they want to snipe radical moslums....... spelled incorrecty for disrespect.



I like the way you think
Link Posted: 3/31/2006 7:24:03 AM EDT



a US citizens right to keep and bear arms is protected by the BOR. the BOR does not apply to anyone else (for the most part).


Link Posted: 3/31/2006 10:37:19 AM EDT
Seems like a lot of mixed signals between this thread and the other thread....

EVERYONE has an inherent right to defend themselves by any means necessary, and around these parts it seems the preferred means is the most lethal and detached method... a firearm.

But then people are saying that illegal immigrants don't have that right because they're in the US. "The land of the free", as long as you're legal.

So that's really saying that the right to bear arms isn't a right, but more of an priveledge granted to citizens.

*In case you haven't noticed I'm really playing devil's advocate on these threads.
Link Posted: 3/31/2006 10:39:14 AM EDT

Originally Posted By pathfinder74:
Seems like a lot of mixed signals between this thread and the other thread....

EVERYONE has an inherent right to defend themselves by any means necessary, and around these parts it seems the preferred means is the most lethal and detached method... a firearm.

But then people are saying that illegal immigrants don't have that right because they're in the US. "The land of the free", as long as you're legal.

So that's really saying that the right to bear arms isn't a right, but more of an priveledge granted to citizens.

*In case you haven't noticed I'm really playing devil's advocate on these threads.



They can defend themselves in Mexico.
Link Posted: 3/31/2006 10:39:45 AM EDT

Originally Posted By pathfinder74:
Seems like a lot of mixed signals between this thread and the other thread....

EVERYONE has an inherent right to defend themselves by any means necessary, and around these parts it seems the preferred means is the most lethal and detached method... a firearm.

But then people are saying that illegal immigrants don't have that right because they're in the US. "The land of the free", as long as you're legal.

So that's really saying that the right to bear arms isn't a right, but more of an priveledge granted to citizens.

*In case you haven't noticed I'm really playing devil's advocate on these threads.



Actually, you make a good point...I didn't think of it that way.

I guess my ultimate feeling is that if they are ILLEGAL we should really make an effort to throw them out, so the point would be moot. But the way things are, obviously we don't follow that policy....
Link Posted: 3/31/2006 10:44:21 AM EDT
Self defense is an absolute right, but it implies INNOCENCE on the part of the person who is defending himself. For example, if a man decides to rob a bank and meets armed resistance, he does not have the right to defend himself.

An illegal alien is in the process of committing a crime every second he is here. They are criminals, and as such shouldn’t be allowed to have firearms.
Link Posted: 3/31/2006 10:48:15 AM EDT

Originally Posted By ODA_564:
Persons who enter the United States of American illegally are deliberately (knowingly) committing a crime.

People who deliberately commit crimes are criminals.

Criminals should not own guns.



Yep
Link Posted: 3/31/2006 10:51:32 AM EDT
Hell no!! Illegal invaders get nothing but the boot!!!!!!!
Link Posted: 3/31/2006 10:52:27 AM EDT

Originally Posted By JIMBEAM:

Originally Posted By ODA_564:
Persons who enter the United States of American illegally are deliberately (knowingly) committing a crime.

People who deliberately commit crimes are criminals.

Criminals should not own guns.



Yep



Yeah, but then you get into the whole non violent criminal thing. I think most of us agree that there are many crimes which you could currently be convicted of that would strip your gun rights away, which in essence are BS.

While being an illegal is criminal, it is generally a non violent crime...

Again, the point is, if illegals were rounded up and sent back, put in jail, dumped into pits, whatever it takes, there would be no reason to ask the question...
Link Posted: 3/31/2006 10:54:59 AM EDT
Hell NO !

The second Ammendment only applies to American Citizens, IMO!
Link Posted: 3/31/2006 10:57:13 AM EDT

Originally Posted By ODA_564:
Persons who enter the United States of American illegally are deliberately (knowingly) committing a crime.

People who deliberately commit crimes are criminals.

Criminals should not own guns.



Yep. Plus One Big Time!!!!
Link Posted: 3/31/2006 10:57:35 AM EDT
Is being an illegal alien a violent offense? It's not like they're child molesters. What harm can being an illegal alien in your garage cause? Even felons have the right to self defense!
Link Posted: 3/31/2006 10:59:57 AM EDT


If you can't come into the US legally then HELL NO!
Link Posted: 3/31/2006 11:04:13 AM EDT
Not just no, but HELL NO!!!!
Link Posted: 3/31/2006 11:06:17 AM EDT
NO.

At some point, they may try to use them against US. Not a citizen=too damn bad.

HH
Link Posted: 3/31/2006 11:07:14 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Thuban:
Self defense is an absolute right, but it implies INNOCENCE on the part of the person who is defending himself. For example, if a man decides to rob a bank and meets armed resistance, he does not have the right to defend himself.

An illegal alien is in the process of committing a crime every second he is here. They are criminals, and as such shouldn’t be allowed to have firearms.



Right... and if you're jaywalking and someone mugs you in the middle of the street...
Link Posted: 3/31/2006 11:07:31 AM EDT
Big fat NO, sut like illegal immigrants shouldn't have any of the rights of citizens and legal immigrants. IMO legal immigrants should be able to do everything but vote.
Link Posted: 3/31/2006 11:12:47 AM EDT
Hell no, and I would be shocked if anyone here would say yes.
Link Posted: 3/31/2006 11:30:18 AM EDT

Originally Posted By MOGWAR:
Hell no, and I would be shocked if anyone here would say yes.



Read the other thread... that's kind of the point of the two being linked together.
Link Posted: 3/31/2006 11:42:06 AM EDT
absolutely yes, rights transcend some arbitrary boundary. The BoR is suppose to guarantee liberties to everyone, not just citizens. The RKBA is an absolute right. Until "illegals" are found guilty in a court of law, their presumed innocent, thus maintain their rights guaranteed under our Constitution. Denying people of their rights without trial is a greater crime than sneaking across the border to gain better freedom and opportunity.
Link Posted: 3/31/2006 11:46:20 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/31/2006 11:58:22 AM EDT by jthuang]

Originally Posted By 1MissouriMule:
Hell NO !

The second Ammendment only applies to American Citizens, IMO!



Under the much touted "individual rights" view of the Bill of Rights, this is obviously false.

The Bill of Rights, at the very least, speaks in terms of the rights inuring to the people, not the citizenry. It was intended to apply to non-citizens, and the Framers knew it.

Compare and contrast the use of the words "people" and "citizen":

US Const., Amendment II: "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."

Art I, Section 21, Pennsylvania state constitution: "The right of the citizens to bear arms in defence of themselves and the State shall not be questioned."

There is no question that the Framers chose their words carefully, to be embodied in the highest law of the land (federal and state). The use of the word "people" in the Second Amendment is no mistake, nor is the use of the word "citizen" in Pennsylvania's constitution. The Framers meant "people", not "citizen", to be used in the Second Amendment ... otherwise they would have used "citizen", as Pennsylvania did.

We tout the words of the Second Amendment (and the remainder of the Bill of Rights, which embody the very concept of "civil rights" in this Nation) very much on this board. I wonder how many truly stand behind the right to arms as enumerated in our Constitution, given this context?

Or do we only tout the Second Amendment when we agree with what it says?

I suspect this thread will reveal who is truly supportive of the Second Amendment, as our founding fathers wrote it ... and those who merely pay it lip service because of convenience.
Link Posted: 3/31/2006 11:46:59 AM EDT
Everyone has the right to defend themselves from harm.
Even illegals.

If some illegal immigrant came into this country to start a new life in a better land, was willing to work for his personal belongings and is a kind person - I feel he should be able to arm himself and face no legal trouble for the possession.

It's better to have a armed illegal that wishes to do good and perhaps end up removing more scum from this country, don't you agree?

At this current time, I would have to agree that keeping them unarmed is the better solution. With such large numbers entering the country, who is to say it's not a hostile invasion? After they have accumulated a large enough force, they purchase firearms PTP or steal them and then the fight is on between two countries.
... I'm not saying we would lose, but it would be a sad situation to face. However, we would get our country back not only from Mexico but the Liberals/immigrant proponents as well. Maybe they should be armed - It might even get more Americans to arm themselves.

This could all be a peaceful invasion (which I believe) where they come here and squeeze us out or fuck us until we are all one color and then this country is declared Mexico - Don't doubt it. Note: By "peaceful" I mean they are not taking up arms in large numbers to achieve their goal.

According to US laws, they are not allowed to purchase/own a firearm.
Link Posted: 3/31/2006 11:48:36 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Dave_A:

Originally Posted By pathfinder74:
Not buy... just own.

I say this only because in some states people don't even have the right to buy guns in the United States, only in THEIR state. But that's another discussion.

And the reason I ask is to bring up another question... is firearms ownership a "God" given right or at least a right that all people have... at least according to the US?



Illegal aliens cannot own firearms ANYWHERE in the USA - it's on the 4473

And it should stay that way...

'The People of the United States' does not include non-citizens...

IMHO non-citizens have 'privledges', not rights in this country - granted, we give the legal ones almost everything the constitution gives citizens (As it should be) but I do not concider illegal aliens to have rights of any kind, save for what international treaties require...



+1

and not all legal aliens can own guns either. I am one of the priviledged few that Uncle Sam thinks are good enough to own firearms, and I cant thanks Uncle Sam enough for giving me this trust.
Link Posted: 3/31/2006 11:53:34 AM EDT
they shouldn't be able to buy, own, or even covet MY firearms until they have a U.S. citizenship (and not guest worker immunity either).

learn the language, culture, general laws, and rights of a U.S. Citizen, as well as pay the taxes.


then we'll talk
Link Posted: 3/31/2006 11:58:06 AM EDT

Originally Posted By AssaultRifler:
Is being an illegal alien a violent offense? It's not like they're child molesters. What harm can being an illegal alien in your garage cause? Even felons have the right to self defense!



Not with a gun. They gave up that right when they committed a felony. Illegal aliens do not have the right to possess any gun and to do so in any manner is illegal.
Link Posted: 3/31/2006 12:15:00 PM EDT
THEY SHOULDNT BE HERE, and if they are they shouldnt be armed, besides if they have money to buy a gun they should spend it on living cost so we dont have to support the unrighteous presence in the U.S
Link Posted: 3/31/2006 12:41:28 PM EDT
Hell no. If they are inclined to own a firearm, they should go through the appropriate channels to become an english speaking Naturalized Citizen. If that is to difficult, boo-fucking-hoo, get the hell outta here and take all of your relatives with you and don't even think of coming back, even for the picking season!
Link Posted: 3/31/2006 12:55:23 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/31/2006 12:57:19 PM EDT by callgood]

Originally Posted By tvc184:

Originally Posted By AssaultRifler:
Is being an illegal alien a violent offense? It's not like they're child molesters. What harm can being an illegal alien in your garage cause? Even felons have the right to self defense!



Not with a gun. They gave up that right when they committed a felony. Illegal aliens do not have the right to possess any gun and to do so in any manner is illegal.



AssaultRifler is sometimes too subtle.

I'll bet the family of officer Daniel Golden wishes the illegal who shot him to death in Huntsville, AL didn't have a firearm. Since they are here illegally, they have had no background check, like WE must go through before WE are allowed to purchase one from an FFL. Of course, WE have to pay taxes, and WE can't haul around bogus SSANs, and WE have to have drivers licenses and WE must maintain liability insurance and blah, blah, blah.
Link Posted: 3/31/2006 1:01:18 PM EDT
Not just No! but FUCK NO!

Remember those with the guns make the rules.
Link Posted: 3/31/2006 1:19:50 PM EDT

Originally Posted By LuvBUSHmaster:
Hell no. If they are inclined to own a firearm, they should go through the appropriate channels to become an english speaking Naturalized Citizen.



You don't need to be a naturalized citizen to legally own and buy guns in the U.S., you just need to be a legal permanent resident alien. There's certainly no requirement that you be able to speak English either.


However, for the specific question in this thread - my intense hatred of all illegal immigrants leads me to say that they forfeited the right/priviledge to own guns when they committed their crime upon entry. Every act of an illegal immigrant is a crime. Even "working an honest job" is a crime, because they shouldn't BE HERE in the first place.

Link Posted: 3/31/2006 1:20:43 PM EDT
moot question. They shouldn't be here at all.
Link Posted: 3/31/2006 1:24:32 PM EDT
Hmm... once they gain signicent numbers, armed illegals will be much more difficult to deport....

Link Posted: 3/31/2006 1:30:44 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Thuban:
Self defense is an absolute right, but it implies INNOCENCE on the part of the person who is defending himself. For example, if a man decides to rob a bank and meets armed resistance, he does not have the right to defend himself.

An illegal alien is in the process of committing a crime every second he is here. They are criminals, and as such shouldn’t be allowed to have firearms.

[devil's advocate] What about say, a hooker, who is on the middle of committing a crime, say like a BJ for $20, and the guy attacks her, does she still have the right to defend herself?[/devil's advocate]

I voted no, but am kinda on the fence, if Illegals have no inherent right to defend themselves then it would be open season on them, right? (by bad people who prey on the defenseless, etc.).
Link Posted: 3/31/2006 1:39:20 PM EDT

Originally Posted By pathfinder74:
Not buy... just own.

I say this only because in some states people don't even have the right to buy guns in the United States, only in THEIR state. But that's another discussion.

And the reason I ask is to bring up another question... is firearms ownership a "God" given right or at least a right that all people have... at least according to the US?



No. Tis a felony.
Link Posted: 3/31/2006 1:44:46 PM EDT
Insurgents with guns?

No. They shouldn't be allowed to walk the streets much less enjoy the rights US citizens are having stripped away from them.

Round em up and ship em back. If they resist or fight back engage them like the foreign invaders they are.
Link Posted: 3/31/2006 1:53:44 PM EDT

Originally Posted By pathfinder74:
Seems like a lot of mixed signals between this thread and the other thread....

EVERYONE has an inherent right to defend themselves by any means necessary, and around these parts it seems the preferred means is the most lethal and detached method... a firearm.

But then people are saying that illegal immigrants don't have that right because they're in the US. "The land of the free", as long as you're legal.

So that's really saying that the right to bear arms isn't a right, but more of an priveledge granted to citizens.

*In case you haven't noticed I'm really playing devil's advocate on these threads.



The thing is, illegal aliens have never been "admitted into this country." Therefore, they do not share a lot of the rights that USC's, Nationals, LEGAL Immigrants and Non-Immigrants have.
Link Posted: 3/31/2006 2:01:21 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/31/2006 2:04:51 PM EDT by jrosto]
Illegal aliens shouldn't even be able to own an apple in the United States. They are illegal, ya know - PROHIBITED BY LAW.

When found, they should be picked up and deported.

ETA - Yes everyone has the right to defend themselves, so they should not be punished for having a weapon, as they should not be punished for having food, just deported.
Link Posted: 3/31/2006 2:03:45 PM EDT
Yes, they should. Self defence is a Human Right, not an American one.
Link Posted: 3/31/2006 2:08:43 PM EDT
they shouldn't be allowed in the US let alone own ANYTHING, especially guns
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