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Posted: 3/30/2006 6:20:00 PM EDT
I don't know it this is a dupe or not, just thought I would post it. This info is from a blog so if anyone has a better source on the subject please post them. Seems this could affect alot of gunowners/gunsmiths if it is true, but I can't see the BATF winning on this.


Link Here
Link Posted: 3/30/2006 6:26:16 PM EDT
tag
Link Posted: 3/30/2006 6:26:58 PM EDT

Originally Posted By chvylvr350:
I don't know it this is a dupe or not, just thought I would post it. This info is from a blog so if anyone has a better source on the subject please post them. Seems this could affect alot of gunowners/gunsmiths if it is true, but I can't see the BATF winning on this.


Link Here



Has the BATFE ever lost something it decided to go after?
Link Posted: 3/30/2006 6:45:22 PM EDT

Originally Posted By skebe:

Originally Posted By chvylvr350:
I don't know it this is a dupe or not, just thought I would post it. This info is from a blog so if anyone has a better source on the subject please post them. Seems this could affect alot of gunowners/gunsmiths if it is true, but I can't see the BATF winning on this.


Link Here



Has the BATFE ever lost something it decided to go after?



I am sure they have, but I am sure if they go after you that you will not come out pretty even if you did win.
Link Posted: 3/30/2006 6:47:45 PM EDT
The NRA's going to be on this like stink on garbage.

There is NO WAY the BATFE wins this one...just watch.

HH
Link Posted: 3/30/2006 6:52:19 PM EDT

Part of this, I suspect, is the BATF is pissed off that gunsmiths got a 50-gun exemption to the excise tax and manufacturing license last year, attached to a transportation bill. BATF BITTERLY opposed the bill, and there's a lot of thought that this is payback. There's also some speculation that BATF has been trying to find a way to get a lever on the HUGE "build-your-own-AR" parts business, and this would do it.

The agents alledgely showed Crow a membership list of the Pistolsmiths Guild and other gun craft guilds and told him that he was only the first.

Link Posted: 3/30/2006 6:54:39 PM EDT

Originally Posted By captainpooby:

Part of this, I suspect, is the BATF is pissed off that gunsmiths got a 50-gun exemption to the excise tax and manufacturing license last year, attached to a transportation bill. BATF BITTERLY opposed the bill, and there's a lot of thought that this is payback. There's also some speculation that BATF has been trying to find a way to get a lever on the HUGE "build-your-own-AR" parts business, and this would do it.

The agents alledgely showed Crow a membership list of the Pistolsmiths Guild and other gun craft guilds and told him that he was only the first.




50 gun exemption? Never heard of this...
Link Posted: 3/30/2006 6:55:44 PM EDT
This is like saying companies like Neuspeed and DC Sports are automobile manufacturers
Link Posted: 3/30/2006 6:58:24 PM EDT
tag
Link Posted: 3/30/2006 7:00:21 PM EDT

The BATFE knows they are under the gun because of all of their abuses...so what do they do to make sure congress "knows" they are needed? Revenue generation!

The ATF has a 35 to 1 ratio where they bring in 35 dollars for every 1 dollar they spend. The ATF is the biggest revenue generator in the whole of the US government.

Do you see a pattern yet?
Link Posted: 3/30/2006 7:01:07 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/30/2006 7:03:08 PM EDT by rcoers]
ATF doesn't even collect revenue anymore, it's handled by another agency...

LINK
Link Posted: 3/30/2006 7:15:09 PM EDT
Wow, I really don't know what to think at this point......
Link Posted: 3/30/2006 7:38:36 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/30/2006 8:35:37 PM EDT by Winston_Wolf]
... Still, it flat amazes me that BATFE, in the bowels of their organization, believe they can create law!

... Fuck it, lets just do away with the Legislative branch of US government!
Link Posted: 3/30/2006 7:45:25 PM EDT
JBTery
Link Posted: 3/30/2006 7:45:27 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Sader762:
Wow, I really don't know what to think at this point......



I do. The ATF is evil.
Link Posted: 3/30/2006 7:48:36 PM EDT

Originally Posted By bnorman:

Originally Posted By Sader762:
Wow, I really don't know what to think at this point......



I do. The ATF is evil.



Yes. Cocksuckers. Period.
Link Posted: 3/30/2006 7:48:43 PM EDT
tag
Link Posted: 3/30/2006 8:04:02 PM EDT
tag
Link Posted: 3/30/2006 8:16:10 PM EDT
Link Posted: 3/30/2006 8:16:36 PM EDT
Link Posted: 3/30/2006 8:17:42 PM EDT
tag


If these guys got away with it, painting your pistol a different color would be a felony.


- BG
Link Posted: 3/30/2006 8:20:43 PM EDT
Damn Illuminati...
Link Posted: 3/30/2006 8:30:21 PM EDT
WOW just WOW!!
Link Posted: 3/30/2006 8:40:26 PM EDT
BATF-E is an organization meant to circumvent the Constitution under the guise of tax collection. Nothing they do is really any of the govt's fucking business.
Link Posted: 3/30/2006 8:43:21 PM EDT
.
Link Posted: 3/30/2006 8:48:41 PM EDT

Originally Posted By drjarhead:
BATF-E is an organization meant to circumvent the Constitution under the guise of tax collection. Nothing they do is really any of the govt's fucking business.



And now that they are under the Judiciary, there is a huge conflict, because you now have to pay a legal bribe to get your NFA paperwork.
Kina like paying a judge off.
Link Posted: 3/30/2006 9:02:38 PM EDT
This is clearly against the law. Shouldn't we perform a "Citizens Arrest" on the perpetrators at the BATFE? Whose fucking country is this after all? They just need to keep pushing this shit just a *little* further... If illegal assmunch immigrants can protest, call for the conversion of the USA to become northern Mexico, I betcha a couple thousand AR totin patriots can bring the fucking BATFE in line. Thats what the 2nd is all about.

The BATFE is clearly a rogue agency.
Link Posted: 3/30/2006 9:11:19 PM EDT

Originally Posted By lippo:
The BATFE knows they are under the gun because of all of their abuses...so what do they do to make sure congress "knows" they are needed? Revenue generation!

The ATF has a 35 to 1 ratio where they bring in 35 dollars for every 1 dollar they spend. The ATF is the biggest revenue generator in the whole of the US government.

Do you see a pattern yet?



bulk of that is probly booze and smokes I would think.
Link Posted: 3/30/2006 9:31:34 PM EDT
Bump & tag.
Link Posted: 3/30/2006 9:48:16 PM EDT
Link Posted: 3/30/2006 9:56:11 PM EDT

Originally Posted By lippo:
The BATFE knows they are under the gun because of all of their abuses...so what do they do to make sure congress "knows" they are needed? Revenue generation!

The ATF has a 35 to 1 ratio where they bring in 35 dollars for every 1 dollar they spend. The ATF is the biggest revenue generator in the whole of the US government.

Do you see a pattern yet?



I'm very worried about these congressional hearings.
The last time ATF was brought before Congress we got Waco and Ruby Ridge.
Link Posted: 3/30/2006 9:58:37 PM EDT

Originally Posted By thedoctors308:

Originally Posted By lippo:
The BATFE knows they are under the gun because of all of their abuses...so what do they do to make sure congress "knows" they are needed? Revenue generation!

The ATF has a 35 to 1 ratio where they bring in 35 dollars for every 1 dollar they spend. The ATF is the biggest revenue generator in the whole of the US government.

Do you see a pattern yet?



I'm very worried about these congressional hearings.
The last time ATF was brought before Congress we got Waco and Ruby Ridge.



I wonder if we will all still sit on our tails if they pull anything like that again.
Link Posted: 3/30/2006 10:06:40 PM EDT

Originally Posted By BuckeyeRifleman:

Originally Posted By thedoctors308:

Originally Posted By lippo:
The BATFE knows they are under the gun because of all of their abuses...so what do they do to make sure congress "knows" they are needed? Revenue generation!

The ATF has a 35 to 1 ratio where they bring in 35 dollars for every 1 dollar they spend. The ATF is the biggest revenue generator in the whole of the US government.

Do you see a pattern yet?



I'm very worried about these congressional hearings.
The last time ATF was brought before Congress we got Waco and Ruby Ridge.



I wonder if we will all still sit on our tails if they pull anything like that again.



99.9999999% will do nothing but complain but even at one in a million 80 people will do something but it still doesn't mean anything unless there is coordination.

The right to keep arms means nothing unless the people bear them also !

MILITIA
Link Posted: 3/30/2006 10:06:44 PM EDT
I just E-mailed the NRA about this issue.

I'll post their response when I receive it.
Link Posted: 3/30/2006 10:09:08 PM EDT


FUCK the BATF
Link Posted: 3/30/2006 10:54:40 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/30/2006 11:02:23 PM EDT by NYPatriot]
Frankly, I don't know what to make of this story. It seems like it is from a credible source, but....

Nothing is posted on the NRA, GOA, or SAF web sites about it and I just spent about 20 minutes looking over the BATF's website, and found nothing in their "rules", "proposed rules" or March 2006 newsletter that would indicate that the definition of "manufacturing a firearm" has been changed in any way.

Anyone been able to verify this report?
Link Posted: 3/30/2006 11:01:36 PM EDT
tag
Link Posted: 3/30/2006 11:02:22 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Winston_Wolf:
... Still, it flat amazes me that BATFE, in the bowels of their organization, believe they can create law!

... Fuck it, lets just do away with the Legislative branch of US government!



The legislative branch has always been the SOURCE of the problems, but the Executive (i.e. DOJ, FBI, ATF, etc) and Judicial branches have always been the ones blamed for the results.
Link Posted: 3/31/2006 4:17:21 AM EDT

Originally Posted By npd233:

Originally Posted By Winston_Wolf:
... Still, it flat amazes me that BATFE, in the bowels of their organization, believe they can create law!

... Fuck it, lets just do away with the Legislative branch of US government!



The legislative branch has always been the SOURCE of the problems, but the Executive (i.e. DOJ, FBI, ATF, etc) and Judicial branches have always been the ones blamed for the results.



The legislature is complicit by making laws that permit rule making by the Executive agencies that are tasked with enforcing those laws. This is why, from time to time, the Congress and State legislatures are required to pass additional laws to clarify the roles and responsibilities of those agencies.

Lately, the Federal and local judiciaries seem to spend more and more time making up law as they go, and they don't even attempt to cover up the blatant trespass these days.

The ATFE is long over due for disbandment, and there are several other Federal agencies that should follow on their heels.
Link Posted: 3/31/2006 4:21:50 AM EDT

Originally Posted By NYPatriot:
Frankly, I don't know what to make of this story. It seems like it is from a credible source, but....

Nothing is posted on the NRA, GOA, or SAF web sites about it and I just spent about 20 minutes looking over the BATF's website, and found nothing in their "rules", "proposed rules" or March 2006 newsletter that would indicate that the definition of "manufacturing a firearm" has been changed in any way.

Anyone been able to verify this report?



My initial inclination is to believe the story with all my heart.

Why? Well, because the BATFE has been behaving like a bunch of asshats lately. I am one of the most pro-law enforcement people you will ever find, but it is absolutely clear from events like the Richmond Gunshow debacle that the BATFE has a DISEASED CULTURE that MUST BE CHANGED IMMEDIATELY.

The BATFE so ROUTINELY abuses power and authority that it is time we start demanding that our senators and representatives make substantive changes in the law that REMOVE ALL DISCRETIONARY AUTHORITY FROM THE BATFE IN THE REALM OF FIREARMS.

We need some static, well defined laws that clearly state some things and that forbid the BATFE from making ANY rulings of their own. They have proven over and over again that they are unable to handle having discretionary authority.

Take it away from them entirely.
Link Posted: 3/31/2006 4:57:53 AM EDT
.
Link Posted: 3/31/2006 5:05:30 AM EDT

Originally Posted By John_Wayne777:

Originally Posted By NYPatriot:
Frankly, I don't know what to make of this story. It seems like it is from a credible source, but....

Nothing is posted on the NRA, GOA, or SAF web sites about it and I just spent about 20 minutes looking over the BATF's website, and found nothing in their "rules", "proposed rules" or March 2006 newsletter that would indicate that the definition of "manufacturing a firearm" has been changed in any way.

Anyone been able to verify this report?



My initial inclination is to believe the story with all my heart.

Why? Well, because the BATFE has been behaving like a bunch of asshats lately. I am one of the most pro-law enforcement people you will ever find, but it is absolutely clear from events like the Richmond Gunshow debacle that the BATFE has a DISEASED CULTURE that MUST BE CHANGED IMMEDIATELY.

The BATFE so ROUTINELY abuses power and authority that it is time we start demanding that our senators and representatives make substantive changes in the law that REMOVE ALL DISCRETIONARY AUTHORITY FROM THE BATFE IN THE REALM OF FIREARMS.

We need some static, well defined laws that clearly state some things and that forbid the BATFE from making ANY rulings of their own. They have proven over and over again that they are unable to handle having discretionary authority.

Take it away from them entirely.



That I would love to see. I want to find out if there is anything to this latest story and forward it to my Senators and Congressman. I just want to be certain it's real before I open my mouth on this one.
Link Posted: 3/31/2006 5:10:48 AM EDT
.
Link Posted: 3/31/2006 5:10:50 AM EDT
Link Posted: 3/31/2006 5:12:33 AM EDT

Originally Posted By HoustonHusker:
The NRA's going to be on this like stink on garbage.

There is NO WAY the BATFE wins this one...just watch.

HH



The reason I dont give money to the NRA is
1: they send me all kinds of garbage in the mail
2: how much good will they really do in this guys case?
Link Posted: 3/31/2006 5:16:01 AM EDT
wtf? <tag>
Link Posted: 3/31/2006 5:18:05 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/31/2006 5:24:36 AM EDT by John_Wayne777]

Originally Posted By Citabria7GCBC:
The reason I dont give money to the NRA is
1: they send me all kinds of garbage in the mail
2: how much good will they really do in this guys case?



*sigh*

Yes, the NRA sends out a bunch of junk mail.

But who exactly do you think it is that takes the ATF to task on proposed rule changes? On enforcement matters? Who do you think dilligently combs the Federal Register looking for the proposed rule changes the ATF wants to use to screw over law abiding citizens? Who do you think it is that goes to court to make the ATF behave according to the law???

All you people who complain that the NRA doesn't do anything really haven't the slightest idea how government actually works. A significant ammount, in fact the MAJORITY, of government decisions HAPPEN AT THE HANDS OF REGULATORY AGENCIES. Not in Congress. Congress likes to pass the buck on regulation to regulatory agencies instead of bothering with it themselves.

Thus you need people focusing on making those agencies behave, which is where the NRA spends a significant ammount of its time.

This instance, if true, is a PERFECT demonstration of how badly needed the NRA is. We simply MUST have someone in Washington representing the interests of gun owners, manufacturers, customizers, and gunsmiths or the ATF really WOULD be able to say that if you replace a trigger in your 1911, that you are manufacturing and could then lock you up for failing to pay taxes.
Link Posted: 3/31/2006 5:23:12 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Citabria7GCBC:

Originally Posted By HoustonHusker:
The NRA's going to be on this like stink on garbage.

There is NO WAY the BATFE wins this one...just watch.

HH



The reason I dont give money to the NRA is
1: they send me all kinds of garbage in the mail
2: how much good will they really do in this guys case?



Really? I get my American Rifleman and a few bits of mail about votes, and legal issues and that's it for the most part. Of course I expended the VAST amount of time and energy it required to go to the website and request I be removed from fund-raising mailings. I'm sure a few peices of junk mail are a fantastic reason to not join the only gun lobby that congress gives a shit about.

Link Posted: 3/31/2006 6:08:28 AM EDT
It has to be true, it's on the internet.
Link Posted: 3/31/2006 6:30:26 AM EDT
Some of the details have changed, as the blog site has been updated.

Unfortunately, this new info only muddies the water even further.

BTW, no word yet from the NRA.
Link Posted: 3/31/2006 6:37:57 AM EDT
This could be bad.
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