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Posted: 3/30/2006 7:52:25 AM EDT
OMG! Guns! In the streets!!

I thought gun control took care of all that....

PS Somebody's career is now in the toilet....



Army's 'lost' guns end up on streets
by BRIAN BRADY, WESTMINSTER EDITOR
http://news.scotsman.com/topics.cfm?tid=1034&id=468312006

DOZENS of lethal weapons have disappeared from Britain's high-security military bases and found their way on to the streets, it has emerged.

Defence chiefs admitted they have managed to lose almost a hundred weapons, including high-powered rifles, pistols and even a light machine-gun in recent years.

Many of the guns have ended up in the hands of some of the country's most brutal criminals, including a Yardie gang in London - sparking fears that weapons have been stolen to order from bases.

Some have simply been lost by military personnel in a series of embarrassing incidents, including one in which an army captain left a loaded gun in a supermarket toilet.

New figures obtained by Scotland on Sunday show that, despite massive security at bases and strict rules on issue of firearms, thieves have managed to steal 63 weapons from the army, air force and navy over the past five years: 19 pistols, 27 rifles, 16 antique weapons and a light machine-gun. In the same period, 34 weapons were lost, while more than 500 pieces of ammunition were stolen.

One defence insider said:

"The figures in these various categories go up and down a bit every year, but we are still losing a lot of guns. A few of them will be genuinely lost, or taken as souvenirs by squaddies. But we cannot ignore the fact that most of them will be making their way on to the black market."

The Tory defence spokesman Julian Lewis said the numbers had been declining slightly in recent years, but he remained concerned by at least one item.

He told Scotland on Sunday: "I'm a civilian and I may be ill-informed, but I am particularly concerned about the possibility that a machine-gun is not where it should be. I would want to know exactly what the circumstances were in which a machine-gun made it out of a military installation."

MPs became aware of the problem after it emerged that guns stolen from a Ministry of Defence (MoD) armoury were sold to Yardie-type drug dealers. The Defence Committee was stirred into action following the revelation that 28 Browning handguns and shotguns stolen in a raid on the Royal School of Artillery armoury at Larkhill barracks in Wiltshire were still missing.

Bruce George, a Labour MP and former chairman of the MPs' defence select committee, said: "I would express some anxiety about any cache of weapons which fall into the hands of terrorists or criminal organisations.

"It is disturbing when these guns may well have emanated from British military sources."

The thefts reached a peak in 2003, the first year of Britain's Iraq campaign, with 19 thefts of weapons, including six pistols and 11 antiques.

One of the most dramatic losses came last autumn when 14 Signals Regiment had to suspend a military exercise at Templeton airfield in Pembrokeshire after an SA80 rifle - capable of firing 700 rounds a minute - went missing.

That followed the recovery of a handgun left by an army captain in a supermarket toilet in Hertfordshire.

It was found in a postbox a few days later.

Link Posted: 3/30/2006 8:36:29 AM EDT
They're sneaking off on their own. You can't possibly hold anyone responsible for something like this! It's the guns' fault, don't you know that?

BAN THEM ALL. THINK OF THE CHILDREN.
Link Posted: 3/30/2006 8:37:29 AM EDT
it's ok, they'll be recovered. guns are illegal there, so the people who have them will surrender them immediately
Link Posted: 3/30/2006 8:40:50 AM EDT
The obvious solution is to take guns away from the military and make the ban total.
Link Posted: 3/30/2006 8:40:51 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/30/2006 8:41:08 AM EDT by CRC]
And Gill Marshall Andrews said 'Your full of it!! All stolen guns come from civilian gun owners!"
Link Posted: 3/30/2006 8:41:32 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Brohawk:
The obvious solution is to take guns away from the military and make the ban total.



Only issue guns and ammo once in a combat zone.

Link Posted: 3/30/2006 8:43:28 AM EDT

500 pieces of ammunition were stolen


SA80 rifle - capable of firing 700 rounds a minute


Under 1 minute of fun.
Link Posted: 3/30/2006 8:43:52 AM EDT
Link Posted: 3/30/2006 8:53:33 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Brohawk:
The obvious solution is to take guns away from the military and make the ban total.



You beat me to it.
Link Posted: 3/30/2006 8:54:18 AM EDT
Oh NOooEEesss Machine gunZ in t3h sTreeTzzz!!!!11

I bet the U.S. military has lost things but the view that I keep getting from British sources makes it sound like you could yell 'I have a gun' really lound and everyone around would surrender to your control. And I am going to say that a society that as a whole forsakes Christ is doomed to decay and destruction.
Link Posted: 3/30/2006 9:00:42 AM EDT
At least no nukes are missing
Link Posted: 3/30/2006 9:02:11 AM EDT

Originally Posted By GMAN51:
And I am going to say that a society that as a whole forsakes Christ is doomed to decay and destruction.



Link Posted: 3/30/2006 9:07:21 AM EDT
Ya know…

As a general rule, governments don’t do a good job of being responsible gun owners. Maybe the world should completely legalize civilian ownership of weapons but ban the government possession of them.

If someone needs arresting then the police should just call some armed civilians to do the arresting. If a war needs to be fought then the respective governments should just have their armed militia show up, rifles in hand. And if there aren’t enough volunteers then maybe the war shouldn’t be fought in the first place.
Link Posted: 3/30/2006 9:09:27 AM EDT
British Army gives up arms for safety of it's citizens.
by BRIAN BRADY, WESTMINSTER EDITOR
http://news.scotsman.com/topics.cfm?tid=1034&id=468312006

Following dozens of attacks by criminals using stolen military weapons, the British Army has decided to surrender all firearms for destruction.

Defence chiefs admitted there is no futher use for firearms since firearm ownership has been banned among the general population. The only way to prevent the theft of the remaining firearms and those weapons ending up in the hands of criminals is for the Army itself to disarm.

Military personnel simply cannot be trusted to keep track of weapons, they are often so feared that military personnel simply abandon them. Such was the example in an embarrassing incident where an army captain left a loaded gun in a supermarket toilet and allowed it to walk off unattended.

New figures obtained by Scotland on Sunday show that, despite massive security at bases and strict rules on issue of firearms, thieves have managed to sneak in and steal 63 weapons from the army, air force and navy over the past five years: 19 pistols, 27 rifles, 16 antique muskets and a light machine-gun. In the same period, 34 weapons were lost, while more than 500 pieces of cap & ball were stolen.

One defence insider said:

"The figures in these various categories go up and down a bit every year, but frankly we can't keep track of our asses with both hands. We cannot ignore the fact that most of them will simply be walking down the street shooting about at innocent civilians."

The Tory defence spokesman Julian Lewis said the numbers had been declining slightly in recent years simply as a result of the fact they were running out of guns.

He told Scotland on Sunday: "I'm a civilian and I'm ill-informed, but I am particularly concerned about the machine-gun that snuck out of a military installation."

MPs became aware of the problem after it emerged that guns walked off form their post at a Ministry of Defence (MoD) armoury to the welcoming arms of Yardie-type drug dealers. The Defence Committee was stirred into action following the revelation that 28 Browning handguns and shotguns were still missing and the theives said "Nanna nanna boo-boo, we're not telling you where they are"

Bruce George, a Labour MP and former chairman of the MPs' defence select committee, said: "I would express some anxiety about any cache of weapons which fall into the hands of terrorists or criminal organisations. That should show them quite proper."

"It is disturbing when these guns may well have emanated from British military sources., I'd be much more relieved had they been made in basements of hoodlums."

The thefts reached a peak in 2003, the first year of Britain's Iraq campaign, with 19 thefts of weapons, including six dueling pistols and 11 antique muskets.

One of the most dramatic losses came last autumn when 14 Signals Regiment had to suspend a military exercise at Templeton airfield in Pembrokeshire when they couldn't find the single SA80 rifle they were supposed to be using in their training exercise.

That followed the recovery of a handgun that walked off while an army captain was in a supermarket toilet in Hertfordshire.

Thankfully it was found napping peacefully in a postbox a few days later.



In the sarcastic spirit of Monty Python & Adlibs and with appologies to our British brothers in arms.
Link Posted: 3/30/2006 9:09:33 AM EDT
Back then, "criminals" could have been armed with what was locally stolen (sawed-offs) and small bore euro pistols, with a risk of homeowners giving them a taste of thier own medicine.

Now "criminals" are armed with what's locally stolen (automatic bullpups) against a population that is utterly defenseless. Brilliant.

Link Posted: 3/30/2006 9:10:33 AM EDT

One of the most dramatic losses came last autumn when 14 Signals Regiment had to suspend a military exercise at Templeton airfield in Pembrokeshire after an SA80 rifle - capable of firing 700 rounds a minute - went missing.


Funny how the location of that one changed. It was first reported to have been lost in the Beacons, but the linked story was soon changed to read as above (I have a copy of the original text).

I wonder if they ever found it.

The edited 'original' article:
news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/mid/4355424.stm

Like I said, it originally said the SA-80 was misplaced in the Beacons.
Link Posted: 3/30/2006 9:15:39 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Brohawk:
The obvious solution is to take guns away from the military and make the ban total.



Yes, well all be safer if they would guns from the armed force, we could really take care of the terrorist then!
Link Posted: 3/30/2006 9:28:53 AM EDT

Originally Posted By markmars:

Originally Posted By Brohawk:
The obvious solution is to take guns away from the military and make the ban total.



Yes, well all be safer if they would guns from the armed force, we could really take care of the terrorist then!



A society which disarms its citizenry is no friend of mine.
Link Posted: 3/30/2006 10:01:01 AM EDT
Didn't realize they have ice cream trucks in UK.
Link Posted: 3/30/2006 10:27:35 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Brohawk:
The obvious solution is to take guns away from the military and make the ban total.




no the answer is to ban all armies. no armies no guns no guns no war no war you can have a socialist paradise like the recent protestors in Sanfransisco demanded. I CAN'T WAIT!


Alvin


Link Posted: 3/30/2006 10:35:46 AM EDT

Originally Posted By CRC:

Originally Posted By Brohawk:
The obvious solution is to take guns away from the military and make the ban total.



Only issue guns and ammo once in a combat zone.




Let them carry pink "rubber duck" rifles for training so no one is frightened by them.
Link Posted: 3/30/2006 10:49:06 AM EDT
Maybe Great Britian will destroy every gon on their continent and then a bunch or Arabs on camels with sticks can ride in and take over the country. (big truck tire inner tubes over the camels midsection between the humps to keep 'em afloat crossing the channel)
Link Posted: 3/30/2006 1:41:29 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Brohawk:
The obvious solution is to take guns away from the military and make the ban total.




That argument WILL be used at some point............
Link Posted: 3/30/2006 1:46:41 PM EDT
So fucking what. I dont understand the euros at all. Some countries actually allow machine guns to be owned as well as SIG rifles, AUGs etc. You dont think several of these come through the chunnel everyday?

Their borders are beyond porous. You can just drive from country to country.
Link Posted: 3/30/2006 1:49:01 PM EDT
Link Posted: 3/30/2006 1:54:28 PM EDT

Originally Posted By vito113:

Originally Posted By FITTER:

One of the most dramatic losses came last autumn when 14 Signals Regiment had to suspend a military exercise at Templeton airfield in Pembrokeshire after an SA80 rifle - capable of firing 700 rounds a minute - went missing.


Funny how the location of that one changed. It was first reported to have been lost in the Beacons, but the linked story was soon changed to read as above (I have a copy of the original text).

I wonder if they ever found it.

The edited 'original' article:
news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/mid/4355424.stm

Like I said, it originally said the SA-80 was misplaced in the Beacons.



14 Signals are an Electronic Warfare unit (spying and evesdropping), the Brecons is were the SAS train… failry easy to join up the dots on this one…



ANdy maybe you would know this. But it would seem that it would not be too difficult to find a weapon in the UK or the rest of Europe if you wanted one. So basically only the bad guys have them.
Link Posted: 3/30/2006 2:04:52 PM EDT
Link Posted: 3/30/2006 2:20:40 PM EDT

Originally Posted By vito113:

Originally Posted By ARDOC:

Originally Posted By vito113:

Originally Posted By FITTER:

One of the most dramatic losses came last autumn when 14 Signals Regiment had to suspend a military exercise at Templeton airfield in Pembrokeshire after an SA80 rifle - capable of firing 700 rounds a minute - went missing.


Funny how the location of that one changed. It was first reported to have been lost in the Beacons, but the linked story was soon changed to read as above (I have a copy of the original text).

I wonder if they ever found it.

The edited 'original' article:
news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/mid/4355424.stm

Like I said, it originally said the SA-80 was misplaced in the Beacons.



14 Signals are an Electronic Warfare unit (spying and evesdropping), the Brecons is were the SAS train… failry easy to join up the dots on this one…



ANdy maybe you would know this. But it would seem that it would not be too difficult to find a weapon in the UK or the rest of Europe if you wanted one. So basically only the bad guys have them.



The only people who believe you can't get guns if you want one in Britain are ARFCOMers and British Politicians…

UK takes a bit of effort, in Europe it's easy as pie…

In the UK handguns are available if you really want one… @£250 gets you a .38 revolver, @£400 gets you a 9mm pistol if you know were to ask… an AK or UZI has a street price of @£2,000

In Europe you can get pretty much anything you want without much effort, especially in Eastern Europe. You can buy a 9mm Luger off market stalls in Prague for £60, 9mm Makarovs for £50. You can pick up an AK for £100 if you shop around…

ANdy



That's what I've heard... but what about ammunition? I'd think that it would be in short supply for "casual" purchase.

My original reply centered around the thought that maybe they didn't want a lot of people yomping around the Beacons in search of said SA-80, so they changed the content of the news article. The same link had different text the previous day. What a find that would have been!
Link Posted: 3/30/2006 2:31:02 PM EDT
So if the info that Andy gave is true, why are they getting their panties in a bunch about some guns? Other then shitty security or dirty security, nothing has really changed.
Link Posted: 3/30/2006 2:31:57 PM EDT
So are they resposable for the deaths resulting in those that were stolen?
Link Posted: 3/30/2006 2:37:38 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Napoleon_Tanerite:
it's ok, they'll be recovered. guns are illegal there, so the people who have them will surrender them immediately




Guns are illegal here?
I see your sarcasm but..

hmmm

lets see... you seem like an intelligent guy

but why do i have to keep correcting you when you are "wrong"

I live in the UK and own an AR15/ruger 10/22 with screwcut/moderator and a pre WW2 Mauser/smle .303....so Im breaking the law hey?


come on NB....let's stick to the facts/reality shall we?


Taffy
Link Posted: 3/30/2006 2:42:05 PM EDT

Originally Posted By FITTER:

Originally Posted By vito113:

Originally Posted By ARDOC:

Originally Posted By vito113:

Originally Posted By FITTER:

One of the most dramatic losses came last autumn when 14 Signals Regiment had to suspend a military exercise at Templeton airfield in Pembrokeshire after an SA80 rifle - capable of firing 700 rounds a minute - went missing.


Funny how the location of that one changed. It was first reported to have been lost in the Beacons, but the linked story was soon changed to read as above (I have a copy of the original text).

I wonder if they ever found it.

The edited 'original' article:
news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/mid/4355424.stm

Like I said, it originally said the SA-80 was misplaced in the Beacons.



14 Signals are an Electronic Warfare unit (spying and evesdropping), the Brecons is were the SAS train… failry easy to join up the dots on this one…



ANdy maybe you would know this. But it would seem that it would not be too difficult to find a weapon in the UK or the rest of Europe if you wanted one. So basically only the bad guys have them.



The only people who believe you can't get guns if you want one in Britain are ARFCOMers and British Politicians…

UK takes a bit of effort, in Europe it's easy as pie…

In the UK handguns are available if you really want one… @£250 gets you a .38 revolver, @£400 gets you a 9mm pistol if you know were to ask… an AK or UZI has a street price of @£2,000

In Europe you can get pretty much anything you want without much effort, especially in Eastern Europe. You can buy a 9mm Luger off market stalls in Prague for £60, 9mm Makarovs for £50. You can pick up an AK for £100 if you shop around…

ANdy



That's what I've heard... but what about ammunition? I'd think that it would be in short supply for "casual" purchase.

My original reply centered around the thought that maybe they didn't want a lot of people yomping around the Beacons in search of said SA-80, so they changed the content of the news article. The same link had different text the previous day. What a find that would have been!




believe it or not


component parts for ammunition are not regulated....any guy can walk into gunshop and purchase a press/powder/cases/primers etc without legaly required checks.

i want to buy 50rnds of 22lr i have to produce my FAC and have the qty entered onto it.

Taffy
Link Posted: 3/30/2006 2:46:13 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Taffy223:

Originally Posted By Napoleon_Tanerite:
it's ok, they'll be recovered. guns are illegal there, so the people who have them will surrender them immediately




Guns are illegal here?
I see your sarcasm but..

hmmm

lets see... you seem like an intelligent guy

but why do i have to keep correcting you when you are "wrong"

I live in the UK and own an AR15/ruger 10/22 with screwcut/moderator and a pre WW2 Mauser/smle .303....so Im breaking the law hey?


come on NB....let's stick to the facts/reality shall we?


Taffy



You "own" them, but where do you keep them? Can they leave the range?
Link Posted: 3/30/2006 2:48:16 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Taffy223:


believe it or not


component parts for ammunition are not regulated....any guy can walk into gunshop and purchase a press/powder/cases/primers etc without legaly required checks.



While it last...


"Tools to produce homemade ammunition for firearms to be included in new anti-crime bill

THE LEGAL loophole that allowed the killer of Leeds police officer Ian Broadhurst to produce home-made bullets is set to be shut tight by MPs today after a tireless campaign in Yorkshire.

Ex-US Marine David Bieber was jailed for life last December for gunning down the 34-year-old policeman in cold blood on Boxing Day, 2003, and firing at two other officers using a pistol loaded with ammunition made from components that had been bought completely legally.

The purchase and possession of ready-made ammunition without a firearms licence is illegal, but, as the Yorkshire Post revealed last year, no licence is needed to buy bullet presses, cartridge cases, primers and powder over the counter.

During Bieber's trial, Mr Justice Moses said it was "completely barmy" that the killer had legally bought a Dillon RL550 bullet press and re-loader from a Hertfordshire gunshop that he had used to manufacture thousands of bullets in a home-made weapons factory in a Leeds lock-up."

www.yorkshiretoday.co.uk/ViewArticle2.aspx?SectionID=55&ArticleID=1253241
Link Posted: 3/30/2006 2:49:19 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/31/2006 2:23:12 AM EDT by vito113]
Link Posted: 3/30/2006 2:51:50 PM EDT

Originally Posted By postpostban:

Originally Posted By Taffy223:

Originally Posted By Napoleon_Tanerite:
it's ok, they'll be recovered. guns are illegal there, so the people who have them will surrender them immediately




Guns are illegal here?
I see your sarcasm but..

hmmm

lets see... you seem like an intelligent guy

but why do i have to keep correcting you when you are "wrong"

I live in the UK and own an AR15/ruger 10/22 with screwcut/moderator and a pre WW2 Mauser/smle .303....so Im breaking the law hey?


come on NB....let's stick to the facts/reality shall we?


Taffy



You "own" them, but where do you keep them? Can they leave the range?




mine are kept in an approved/inspected gun safe in my house.

next?

Taffy
Link Posted: 3/30/2006 2:53:42 PM EDT
Link Posted: 3/30/2006 2:58:09 PM EDT
This is not a fucking airsoft......



Taffy
Link Posted: 3/30/2006 3:00:32 PM EDT
Link Posted: 3/30/2006 3:05:46 PM EDT
Andy I'll see your divers knife and raise you this...



Taffy
Link Posted: 3/30/2006 3:10:00 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/30/2006 3:10:36 PM EDT by vito113]
Link Posted: 3/30/2006 3:13:47 PM EDT
What do you use that khukuri for... cutting the grass?

Nice stuff! I take it that there's no minimum barrel length rule on those ARs like we have here...

Link Posted: 3/30/2006 3:14:56 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Taffy223:
Andy I'll see your divers knife and raise you this...

www.hunt101.com/img/391383.JPG

Taffy



Silly Brits.
Link Posted: 3/30/2006 3:19:00 PM EDT

Originally Posted By FITTER:
What do you use that khukuri for... cutting the grass?

Nice stuff! I take it that there's no minimum barrel length rule on those ARs like we have here...




We do have a minimum length....

but we do get to have moderators/30rd mags/bayo lugs/pistol grips etc
just no semi-auto
unless it's in 22lr or conversion kit

Taffy


The Khukuri is purely ornamental...
Unless you intend to rob me....

Taffy
Link Posted: 3/30/2006 3:21:15 PM EDT
Link Posted: 3/30/2006 3:22:45 PM EDT

Originally Posted By ARDOC:

Originally Posted By Taffy223:
Andy I'll see your divers knife and raise you this...

www.hunt101.com/img/391383.JPG

Taffy



Silly Brits.



This was handed down from my Grandfather to my father to me....original from Oman. Liberated during his service there. It's nothing special...sentimental more than anything.

Taffy

It'd be worth you robbing me just to meet the knife of "Doom"
Link Posted: 3/30/2006 3:58:37 PM EDT
So you could have a short-barreled semi-auto .22-converted AR-15 with a silencer? Seems fair to me! That's more that I'd be allowed to have in New York State.

Link Posted: 3/30/2006 4:16:19 PM EDT

Originally Posted By FITTER:
So you could have a short-barreled semi-auto .22-converted AR-15 with a silencer? Seems fair to me! That's more that I'd be allowed to have in New York State.




You get semi-auto centerfire rifles.
Dunno if you guys have registration in NYS.
Link Posted: 3/30/2006 7:20:02 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/30/2006 7:20:34 PM EDT by FITTER]
No registration (just on handguns), but we can't have SBRs or suppressors. No full-auto, either, BTW. Pennsylvania is looking pretty good from my angle.
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