He should have been arrested and charged with obstruction of justice and psychological assault upon a police officer.

[url]dailynews.yahoo.com/h/wjla/20010810/lo/deputies_sue_diabetic_driver_they_beat_after_traffic_stop_1.html[/url]
 
Friday August 10 11:33 AM EDT

Deputies Sue Diabetic Driver They Beat After Traffic Stop

Two Frederick County sheriff's deputies are suing a diabetic man they beat after a traffic stop, contending his complaints about the incident hurt their careers.

Eric J. Winer and Jeffrey A. Norris are seeking more than $68,000 from Frederick T. "Tom" Moore IV of Virginia in a lawsuit moved last week to U.S. District Court in Baltimore. Moore filed a multimillion-dollar lawsuit in federal court last year, accusing the officers of violating his civil rights.

Both lawsuits stem from a June 12, 1998 incident, in which the deputies suspected Moore of drunken driving before discovering he was suffering from diabetic shock.

Court records indicate the officers chased Moore's Toyota truck about nine miles on Route 15 in Frederick County before they were able to block and stop him.

When Moore still failed to heed their commands - doctors later said he was slipping into a diabetic coma - the deputies broke a window to his truck, doused him with pepper spray, beat him! w! ith a police baton and sent a police dog into the truck.

Only after Moore was removed from the truck did the officers notice a card identifying the driver as a diabetic hanging from the truck's rearview mirror, the officers' complaint says, whereupon they immediately called for medical help.

Moore spent four days in the hospital for dog bites and other wounds from the beating, but the officers' complaint says he apologized to them "for any harm he may have caused" at the emergency room.

The incident prompted a local grand jury inquiry and investigations by the U.S. Justice Department (news - web sites) and the FBI (news - web sites) for possible civil rights violations. None of the probes led to criminal charges.

In their lawsuit, however, the officers say the inquiries and publicity portrayed them unfairly. They contend Moore's criticism of them in media interviews was "highly offensive," considering they had "prevented serious harm, injury and/or death" to Moore.

Those cops sure are ballsy!

That would be like me beating the shit out of some guy and then suing him because his teeth cut up my hands.

That reminds me of a similar story.
I used to work with a guy that was a delivery driver for my company who happened to be on an episode of COPS. This was an episode shot in Dallas.
He came to work one day and his face was all scabbed over. I asked what happened and he said the cops did it to him. He was making a delivery one evening and went into a diabetic shock. The camera in the COPS car showed him driving very slow. The cop in the car said, "Oh yeah, he's wasted." He finally stopped and about 8 cops pulled him out of the car and did the old knee to the back of the head, pinning his face to the pavement. This guy was in his late 50's to 60's and they did a number on him. They impounded his car even though they discovered he was a diabetic and not a drunk! I don't think he ever got his car back.

Shoot first and ask questions later.

You caught me SGB! I didn't know the guy. I just pulled that story out of my ass! [rolleyes]

The nerve of those officers trying to stop a driver that appeared to be impaired. They should have been able to use the Vulcan mind techniques they teach at the acadamy to determine that poor man was have medical difficulties. After all if the driver of a vehicle has an altered level of conciousness due to a medical problem everybody knows that if the do crash the laws of physics are temporarily suspended and no one is hurt or killed as a result.

Not that it was that guys responsibilty to manage HIS medical condition. Just another example of the government setting up the "little guy". That evil government it's surprising he hasn't disapeared, death sqauds being what they are. They are probably gonna get him after the trial so those officers can collect an court settlemnt.

Man, I take some time off and have to come back just in time to see all this LEO-Bashing crap on the boards.

Just who the He|| does this Mr. Moore think he is anyway.  Just another cluck who is trying to blame away all his responsibilities away instead of admitting fault, as anyone who is stopped by the poe-leece should!

"Oowwwww!, sorry officer I couldn't hear your order for me to drop and spread eagle 'cuz I am certifiably deaf!, why did you HAVE to beat me down?"  (in sign language of course)

OR

"Its not my fault I wuz driving like shit, my epilepsy kicked in...btw thanks for all the pepper spray, it snapped me out of my seizure!"

Just because you have some silly supposed "disability" doesn't mean that you don't deserve to be beaten down by the "Man" anyway, right?  What has made us such a f'd up society that we besmirch the reputations of the sterling men and women in Maryland LE organizations?

All you bashers ought to be glad that the beating that turkey took wasn't standard authorized procedure...I think they ought to do that at all police stops.  Crime would go way down, while respect for authoritay would go way up!

I think OLY-M4gery is on to something about the death squads.  I think that we exported way too much of our talent to Latin America in the 70's and 80's and we are paying for it now.  In El Salvador and Guatemala I am pretty sure they have "while you wait" death squad service throughout most of the country.  Now you can't get that kind of service here in the USA! (with the exception of the Clinton/Condit damage control service) Nice going.

Personally I think we as a country should be more like Columbia, you don't hear people complain about the police down there...and if you do the complainers typically take permanent vacations shortly after!

rDAm

Quote from article -

Let me get this straight - the officers contend that Moore's apology in the Emergency Room, at a time when he was no doubt still suffering from the diabetic coma effects, as well as from the effects of the beating and biting, is an [b]'admission against interest'[/b] that could be used against HIM in a court of law? What a crock, the officers' lawyers should drop THAT defense pretty quickly, lest it come back to bite them on the butt!

This is not a slam against LEOs! I want them to protect me and my family against drunk drivers! They do a job for society that [b]I wouldn't do for a million buck$![/b] Yet they get paid considerably less than that!

But like ALL of us, doctors, lawyers, Indian Chiefs, plumbers, pipefitters, etc., when we do something bad in the course of our employment, or show a lack of good common sense, we have to pay the price, face the music, pony up to the bar, get canned, fired, relieved, whatever!

So it should be the same with LEOs!  And such misconduct as MAY have occurred on the side of that highway to Mr. Moore, if proved, SHOULD lead to the removal of these officers' badges!

It's not that they made a mistake, it's that they made a mistake in a serious and dangerous way! The vehicle was stopped. The danger to the public was over. The danger to themselves was not apparent, at least according to the facts described in the article.

They should have waited for backup, locksmith, etc., before doing what they did.

And their arrogance in using the confused apology of their victim in the emergency room as some sort of defense is indefensible itself!

Eric The(Mr.Bailiff,SwearInTheJury!)Hun[>]:)]

I doubt that the publicity from this lawsuit is going to do much for their careers either. [BD]

Kind of off topic here but I'd take a drunk over one in a diabetic emergency anyday.  I've had 3 seperate incidents involving diabetics going into shock and they were either involved in an accident or out at the wheel.  They can get violent cause they are so out of it.  Anyway all three times the guy was so out of it he just went crazy.  We had one go off in the back of the ambulance once and we tore that ambulance up trying to get him restrained so the EMT's could pump the glucose in him.  His headbutts hurt like hell too!!!

That's why you get a bumper sticker in a police-dictatorship society like ours. not that I am LEO bashing.... I would never do that.
-Chuck

[-!-!-] cop haters. Kiss this [moon] Imbroglio.

Uhhh....Suka,

I hate to say this but I don't see Imbroglio as being a "cop hater" (tm)  Normally any article he presents(at least in the last month) has been relatively comment free when he submits it.  In fact before the url of this article he states;

"He should have been arrested and charged with obstruction of justice and psychological assault upon a police officer."

Now that statement leaves no (as in zero) doubt in the readers mind that Mr. Imbroglio is fully 100% behind our boys manning that fragile "thin blue line" (tm).  Hell I bet if he was one of them esquire type fellas he would be filing briefs on behalf of the two shining defenders of the universe that have had to deal with the undue bad press lately.  As opposed to others that post here who would love nothing more than to see LEO's defamed!  

I think an apology to Imbroglio would be appropriate, considering he is NOT bashing LEO's!!!

rDAm

[-!-] Hater cop!! [-!-]
[rolleyes] [rolleyes] [rolleyes] [rolleyes] [rolleyes] [rolleyes]

So how about a diabetic's take on this BS?  Here's mine from 26 years of dealing with this horrible disease:

You guys have absolutely [b]NO[/b] clue what a diabetic insulin "shock" can be like, I assure you.  And it's not like you can gaurantee yourself that it won't ever happen either.

A person's blood sugar [b]can[/b] drop several points in the matter of seconds.  This happens because a diabetic (at least an insulin dependent one) needs to keep "dormant" insulin in his blood.  That insulin is [b]supposed[/b] to kick in slowly, over time, to provide coverage for meals all day long.  But external stresses can change that, and cause the insulin to kick in sooner.

The blood sugar may drop so fast, you don't even realize you're in dangerous territory.  Even if it does drop slowly, it's not always apparent that you're "disabled" because you otherwise feel just fine.

The point being, he could have gotten into his car with a blood sugar well higher than it needed to be (ie, not disabled.)  And during the course of his drive, it could have tanked in seconds.  I don't know, and there really isn't a way to tell.

He should have been stopped.  He should have been removed from his car somehow, and at that point, the cops should have realized he wasn't playing with a full deck.  What they did to this man is utterly deplorable, and only furthers my complete disgust for "Maryland's Finest."  Had I been in this man's shoes, their dog would be dead, and two "police officers" would be soaking up hospital food through IVs right now.  F*cking disgusting.

If police officers want us, as citizens, to have some respect and compassion for what they do, then they'd better damn well show it to us.

jas

How does being diabetic (or suffering from any other medical condition) relieve a person of the responsibility to operate his MV in a safe manner?



I wasn't aware of that.  Maybe they shouldn't be allowed to drive.



Anyone who resists against overwhelming odds isn't playing with a full deck.  How do you differentiate?

Eddie

Did I say it did?  No.  Clearly he should have been pulled over and dealt with, I have no arguments with that.  He [b]shouldn't[/b] have been driving in his condition.



Two cops and a dog are "overwhelming odds?" Uh.. ok. :-)  In all seriousness, was there [b]ANY[/b] reason for them to pull him out of his car the way they did and beat him?  Did he try and [b]fight[/b] with them?  Other than, as the article says, "fail[ing] to heed their commands," did he do anything that warranted getting thumped?  The article doesn't say, and I'll bet he didn't.

These cops are scum and a bad example of the law enforcement profession.

jas

my wife is has epilepsy.

she had a petite mal seizure while driving. she managed to pull over while driving up a steep hill. unfortunately, she was driving our 5-speed, and could not retain control of her body long enough to shut the car off in gear or apply the emergency brake.

the car rolled back down the 1/8 mile long grade without hitting anything.

the cops showed up and were trying to arrest her for d.u.i. when an abulance happened to pass by and stop.

despite the fact that my wife wears both a med-alert bracelet and necklace, the cops continued with the arrest.

the paramedics spotted the bracelet and ended up taking her to the emergency room.

i do have to wonder what mindset some officers have.

note: this post is in no way a flame at all leo's. i'm just letting people know that these types of incidents do occur and good folks with medical conditions end up wearing handcuffs.

this story is NOT second hand.

Well we're only getting the cop-hating media side of the story, what really happened must be that the diabetic started beating the shit out the poor defenseless cops and they were lucky the dog was there to save their lives. The horror the cops must have went through fighting tooth and nail for their lives, thinking they would never get home to see their family again. It was a miracle that they survived and they should be awarded the congressional medal of honor awards for their bravery and will to survive. And the audacity of the diabetic to complain about it afterwards, after all the cops did not shoot him, even though they were in fear of their lives, the diabetic should have been grateful for that and should have sent the cops expensive christmas presents for their generiosity in not killing him when they had every reason to.

Two cops with sidearms, probably batons and, obviously, pepperspray, plus one dog trained to attack.  Yeah, against one average unarmed civilian, I'd call that overwhelming odds.



Don't know, wasn't there.  I'm more concerned with WHY he was driving.

I personally witnessed a similar incident about 15 years ago on an AF base.  The cops tried to talk the guy out of the car and he was completely incoherent (I thought he was drunk).  When one of the SPs reached inside the guy went ballistic.  He was forceably removed and subdued.  The fact that he ran into the gate of a controlled area didn't help matters.  I later learned he had a medical condition.  Felt sorry for the guy, but, IMO, the cops acted responsibly.  

Eddie

Or like Exxon suing Alaska for getting duck
feathers in their oil????

Since cops have a right to beatup anyone they pull over, here's an easy solution to the problem.  Anyone with a disability, lets call them a "freak of nature", must register with the state, and are then issued a "freak of nature" ID card.  They are also required to wear only bright orange jumpsuits and drive only bright orange colored vehicles.

This should help reduce the stress level cops endure following a good beatin.

ZIG HAIL!!

WTF?!?

The suspect was only giving passive resistance(sitting in car). He wasn't attacking them; they had to break a window to get at him. I challenge any police officer to show me a use of force policy that allows batons, OC, and a dog for passive resistance. No cops I know would act like that. Sorry, these guys were f'ed up, and defending them only hurts the image of decent police officers. I understand wanting to go home at the end of the day, but it is not like they don't know what they are getting into. If more officers publically denounced the bad apples, there would be no "us vs. them" attitude.

Truer words have never been spoken.

11e5, yup but on the other hand this is like someone calling you baby killer because of Mai Lai 4, If every time you signed on Imbro had a post about something the military did you would see it as not pointing out bad apples but bashing, after a while anyway.

Heres the problem, people having diabetic reactions often behave in a bizzare manner. There is no way to tell if the driving you see is because of drunkeness, drug abuse, medical difficulty, or cell phone use. The officers apparently tring to stop him for 9 miles, that is probably 15 minutes. The driving the observed could have included a crash, drving towards other vehicles, who knows.

After the stop my guess is the tried to order the guy out of the truck, by PA or yelling. The thinking probably was why didn't he stop for 9 miles?? Was he hiding something, was he getting something?? Guess what he didn't come out. So they went up to the truck. A person in medical distress would probably look like someone that is "out of it". Tought to tell why. They may have tried to open the doors to the vehicle, they were probably locked, either before or as th cops were standing there.

So they decided to break a window, guess what he still didn't come out. Ever tried to fight with someone who is in a car?? It's like fighting a bear in it's cave...

OC doesn't do any good, he isn't in touch with reality, all the other physical force doesn't do any good he isn't in touch w/reality. Which is exaclty how a "wasted" person would act or a mentally ill person. Since Deon Warwick and her friends weren't there it is tough decide exaclty what is going on.

This was investigated, by their SO, the FBI, the US DOJ, and a grand jury. They didn't find any laws violated by the officers. But I guess we all know better here based on a news article.

Invictus, Imbroglio likes to post and run, he just posts to cause problems basically, he doesn't debate, the few responses I've got from him are basically "oh, yeah says you, doo doo head".

Hellraiser, what is the difference between being in a fight with a diabetic and a drunk person?? None when they hit you it hurts just the same.  

Wait the He|| a minute...I think you and Suka might be (badly) mistaken...I know for a fact imbroglio started off with:



There is no way I could read that as a bash.  Especially when the article goes on to say that the driver with the "Supposed" disability said that he was sorry for the mess that happened coupled with the fact that all the other LEO's up the chain all agreed that the two LEO's involved in the stop did nothing illegal.  Sounds pretty clear cut to me!

Well I know last month (maybe even June)  Imbroglio mentioned something to the effect he was 12-stepping the LEO bashing.  With his opening quote it seems like he is all better now.  Sad if something he has said long ago can't be forgiven as he sounds like he is covering your "6" nowadays.  Maybe I am reading the article and Mr. Imbroglio's  opening statement wrong, but it seems hard to mis-interpret.  Maybe he doesn't want to or doesn't have the time to argue his case against those who have misunderstood or taken words out of context???

rDAm

Its because we all know Imbrog is being sarcastic.

The closest I am a to being a German linguist is the fact I make and sell American versions of "Berliners" but I believe the correct spelling is "Seig Hiel".  Please somebody correct me if I am wrong.

As for your point and mine...

You can't seriously think that if every time someone does something to warrant a stop and they get a beatin' (or at least a mild thumpin') thrown their way they won't wise up and not repeat said behavior muiy pronto???  Of course they will stop screwin' around!  And officers won't be subjected to much "lip" (thankfully) either!  Pain compliance is and historically always been a very important and effective tool to police world wide!  If you don't believe me ask any LEO!  It works!!!

rDAm

Having worked as a part-time bouncer for many years, I've dealt with thousands of drunks and I can tell ya I've never taken a good hit from any of em. They being drunk, me being sober always gave me the upper hand and they were easy to deal with and I never used anymore force than neccessary. I've seen "bad-attitude" bouncers who see the opportunity to kick ass and they take it, I never felt the need to. I know cops that act like that too. I know some good cops, some of them served with me in the Corps, I know some bad cops too, and there's nothing I hate more than a bad cop, except for maybe bad politicians, bad govt thugs, etc...

you just got lucky trust me some drunks can fight and yes I was sober. I didnt loose but I got hit and hit hard. but I agrre with the bad cop crap...My misbegotten brothers just need to be led to the path or put out to pasture.

Well, I'm a bit different, I've been in hundreds of fights and hundreds of tournaments  and have never really taken a good shot, luck, perhaps, 20 years of martial arts training, definately. If more cops had better fighting - martial arts skills, I don't think they would have to hurt people more than neccessary. I find people are more likely to hurt other people when they themselves are afraid.

Yes but remember that restraint fighting styles are what most cops use. except like in the above topic when they beat someone(allegedly)and its hard to do a "flow" or restraint move on a person that's flailing around. I practice a lot of in-fighting and submission technics but I'm no Bruce Lee, Jackie Chan, or Jet Li and I do get scarred sometimes I'm only Human

The same situation happened to my uncle.  He escaped the beating and was just tossed around a little until he landed in a jail cell where he almost died from lack of his medication.  I remember how shocked and angry he was, that he could be treated that way, when he considered himself a very upstanding and patriotic American.

Invictus is right, some cops do seem to think they are obligated to inflict a little "pain compliance" regardless of the reason.

These are the unintended consequences we bring on ourselves when we surrender out freedom in the war against drunk driving.   "but it's worth it to save just one life"  Bullshit.

I for one prefer 10 drunk drivers to one LEO, drunk on power.

Yes, of course most dept's. don't hire Bruce Lee, or anyone for fighting ability. The do a whole battery of tests a background check, possible require 2 or 4 year degrees. In your situation you are in a place familair to you the are out of their element, often that is reversed for LEO's. Also LEO's are often required to wear sill polyster uniforms, bullet proof vests(often "low-bid") a bat utility belt, etc. etc. they have to have what they need with them, it does cut down on the flexibilty.

I don't disagree that abuse is wrong, beating up people is wrong. But using reasonable force to arrest someone is allowed. What is reasonable?? Depends on the situation most of the time it is verbal, "you are under arrest, you need to come with me".  

The diabetic issue, I personally have never had someone tell my "I'm not drunK, I'm having a diabetic reaction", oh wait yes I have, they were drunk, and EMS confirmed blood sugar normal. I've never had someone having a diabetic reaction that is also drunk, oh wait....

Diabetes is difficult theres 2 ways it manifests itself. 1) not enough insulin, which break down sugar in the blood. All your organ need metabolised sugar to work. No insulin you slowly fade out a your body uses all the metabolised suger, this takes a long time. 2) Too much insulin. All the sugar in your blood is metabolised. The one organ that NEEDS sugar in your blood, directly no insulin, to work is your brain. So basically your brian begins shutting down due to lack of sugar. This is dangerous, like right now to the diabetic. This also means you lose your ability to reason or feel pain your brain keeps vital fuctions going at the expense of others. Your fight or flight response is highly active and since you are lossing the ability to percieve what is going on around you it is likely to be used.

Invictus, I know sarcasm and let me tell you how enlightened and well thought out your post are, simply brilliant.  

SGB, I agree with you about how little ANYONE posts something positive about LEO's. It's not that there isn't anything positive to report, but that such things do not get the amount of media coverage that the screw ups get.
Good deeds show up on page three of section two, where "cops screw up again" shows up front page center. I tend to pile on when I read about LEO abuses of power, but I also give out credit where credit is due.
Bottom line....If LEO's quit giving people reasons to complain, Then threads like this would disappear. I also understand that they are in a "catch 22" situation, When you constantly have to deal with the shit of humanity, it may be hard to "turn off" the hardass cop routine when dealing with average situations.

SUKEBE
You have stated that you are an L.E.O.
there fore you should have thick skin
and except that not everyone will agree
with what happen. By your actions and comments alone also help bring negative opinions upon all
L.E.O.
just my $.02 worth

Perhaps you are right about Sukebe, then again how many people get on this web site and post silly, immature, or inapropriate things?? How many people get on here talking about things that are illegal?? I don't see the other members here telling them to stop.

In fact in another thread someone posted something about criminals carrying without a permit, a crime, and indicated what he thought about such criminal activity. The next post was someone indiganant that they were being called a criminal just becuase they knowingly and intentionally break the law. They thought gun-friendlty Texas was out of line requesting a fee for a CHL. Guess what no one, except me, said anything to that person.

I think Sukebe is another member of this board and has as much or as little right to post his opinion here as anyone else. And I think that he like many others is just "blowing off steam". If I took him serious I would also have to take Imbroglio serious, and that is just crazy talk.

ok damnit, how do I delete this post?

I've done this... I was the one resisting.... I had a friend that was in posetion of a pair of handcuffs. A buch of people(7 or so) thought it would be funny to handcuff me. I didn't see the humor in it and @ 6'2" 200+lbs... They didn't get me handcuffed. I had fewer bruises than they did collectivly.... I can only imagine what the cops used to go through when I was getting picked up for public intoxication (I used to party hard)..

I have to save judgment of these cops... I wasn't there.

hit the garbage can icon at the top of the post

Obrigado OLY-M4gery!

With all the spite and bile that is spewed around here it is very refreshing to see that the users of this board can also be supportive and friendly.

"Enlightened"  "Simply brilliant"  [:I]  I haven't had compliments like that in...well suffice it to say it has been a while.  Thanks.

Well since you got the warm&fuzzy ball rolling let me compliment you as well as "burn" and "SGB".  You three seem to be some of the more level headed and thick skinned LEO types I have had the pleasure of speaking with lately.  I do mean that as a compliment as there are a few LEO's around here that get so easily spun up its kinda spooky, I mean I wouldn't want to be pulled over by them if they are having a bad day!

 [BD] [smash]

I am fairly certain courtesy on this board would easily reflect your professionalism on the job!

rDAm

All you cops are bad asses.

Biggame223

Out


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