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Posted: 3/29/2006 12:31:09 AM EDT
Having worked in several gun shops, and owned and traded for everything ever made, ..built about 30 or more ARs, owned UZI minis, and other exotics, .308s, etc. etc..........

its odd that if the "crap hit the fan" the most utilitarian AND defensive weapon would be a Remington 870, or say a Benelli M2 tactical??? (preferably the 870....fewer parts, more indestructable).

You have both a close quarters defensive weapon and mid-range defensive weapon.........capacity for birdshot for birds for food......or slugs for either big game, or humans assailants for that matter.

considering alllllllllllll the exotic crap Ive owned , HK 91s, UZIs, tons and tons of ARs, ...........all of it..........id rather, in a pinch, carry a tactically decked-out 870 12GA remington........with a bandoleer with A: birdshot...........B: mostly 00 Buck for defense.........C: Slugs for big game/ long dist. assault....... .....


870 Pump, like a glock has almost NO parts, is nearly indestructable.......

sometimes, i myself like others, have thought that the more $$$ you blew on something, the better, .......$3000 HK, etc etc, ....

but i could do more with an 870 Pump for $320 than the rest of it combined .......alas.

even with money as no object. id rather have an 870 on my back, with a choice of SLUGS, 00BUCK, and SHOT............3 guns in one, ....indestructable, all for $320.

thanks Remington
Link Posted: 3/29/2006 12:46:12 AM EDT
....

While a shotgun does have its place, I wouldn't consider one for a PRIMARY SHTF weapon. Someone with a halfway decent rifle could waste your ass from outside any range that you could defend against.

Up close and personal, yup if there's nothing else but not for me as primary.

IMHO, of course.
Link Posted: 3/29/2006 12:51:59 AM EDT
I was at a gunshow about a year ago and found a dealer that was selling a used Remington 870 pump that had belonged to a local police department. The gun was an 870 Wingmaster.

Bluing was about 90% with most of the wear in the pump area. The wood was dinged along the bottom of the stock and foregrip. My guess is that it rode in a vertical mount in a crusier and was carried alot but shot little. After a little haggling, I bought it for $140 cash!

I took it home, tore it down completely (it was pretty dirty), and cleaned it up. My father-in-law does a lot of wood working and completely refinished the stock for me, getting out nearly all of the dents and dings. A gunsmith friend of mine radiused the buttpad edges for me for a no-snag drawl. A high-capacity mag attachment and a side saddle shell holder later and it's now my homedefense weapon. All for less than $200!

I took it to the range and ran a couple different types of shells through it and it's stone reliable. The only thing I want to do now is add some sort of front night sight to replace the bead.

Didn't mean to hijack your thread, but I love this gun and my "find" and the local gunshow is a story that I tell often!!

Link Posted: 3/29/2006 12:55:47 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/29/2006 12:57:39 AM EDT by hatebreed]
Yep, Remington 870's are better than any combat weapon in the world, that's why they are in use as a primary weapon by every military that matters world wide.....

Steyr AUG's and MP5's and M16's are junk compared to 36 Glocks and a Remington 870.
Link Posted: 3/29/2006 1:00:08 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Airwolf:
....

While a shotgun does have its place, I wouldn't consider one for a PRIMARY SHTF weapon. Someone with a halfway decent rifle could waste your ass from outside any range that you could defend against.

Up close and personal, yup if there's nothing else but not for me as primary.

IMHO, of course.




unless your a COP/SWAT, ....if you have to kill people while looking thru a scope, its already WWWIII or worse.

If you think a .308 or any Scoped Rifle is a "PRIMARY" in a CHAOS/ANARCHY climate,...then youve given it NO thought at all...............
Link Posted: 3/29/2006 1:06:15 AM EDT

Originally Posted By hatebreed:
Yep, Remington 870's are better than any combat weapon in the world, that's why they are in use as a primary weapon by every military that matters world wide.....

Steyr AUG's and MP5's and M16's are junk compared to 36 Glocks and a Remington 870.




your context is out of place, i was referring to a survivalist climate, not to warfare with tanks and M60 machineguns.......... ...........and by the way, the Steyr AUG is junk, its used by VERY FEW.

and, in case you didnt know, im sure you didnt know,.......theres an ENORMOUS ammount of 12GA pumps being carried in IRAQ right now.

A 12GA 00BUCK not only is 100 times superior to a 223 zipping thru your gut, but also, as IRAQ SOLDIERS have found, very very nicely Opens Doors


100 yards and under, i can do FAR more damage to anything, flying, walking, on 2 feet, or 4 hoofs....with my 12GA pump , than you can with your overengineered junk Steyr AUG
Link Posted: 3/29/2006 1:06:35 AM EDT

Originally Posted By sigandglocks:

If you think a .308 or any Scoped Rifle is a "PRIMARY" in a CHAOS/ANARCHY climate,...then youve given it NO thought at all...............



Probably a little more thought than somebody grabbing a Remington 870 as a primary. Want to put your trusty 870 up against an FAL or a HK91 or AR10 in a SHTF situation?

No wait, you're right, .308's are also ALL junk.

Just like AR15/M16's and MP5's and AUG's.

Link Posted: 3/29/2006 1:15:05 AM EDT

Originally Posted By sigandglocks:

your context is out of place, i was referring to a survivalist climate




Hmm, maybe you can go ahead and clue me in on what exactly a "survivalist climate" is. Apparently whatever it is it involves people who assault from less than 100 yards and mad quail.




and, in case you didnt know, im sure you didnt know,.......theres an ENORMOUS ammount of 12GA pumps being carried in IRAQ right now.



What part of PRIMARY weapon didn't you understand? I never said a shotgun has no place in combat, or anywhere else. I simply said it is faulty as a one tool for every job primary weapon, and it is. that's why nobody uses it as such.



A 12GA 00BUCK not only is 100 times superior to a 223 zipping thru your gut, but also, as IRAQ SOLDIERS have found, very very nicely Opens Doors

100 yards and under, i can do FAR more damage to anything, flying, walking, on 2 feet, or 4 hoofs....with my 12GA pump , than you can with your overengineered junk Steyr AUG



Alright, well when the "crap" hits the fan I'm sure you'll be assaulted by lots of doors, quails, bucks and bunnies, and all from under 100 yards. Good luck with that. By the way, I never said an AUG was top on my list, just higher than 36 Glocks. As was the FNC, and 2 Galils. Don't read too much into it. you might strain yourself.
Link Posted: 3/29/2006 1:18:36 AM EDT
Sure is a lot of bullshit around here tonight. Something tells me you you wont be around very long,you dont seem to fit in very well.
Link Posted: 3/29/2006 1:23:16 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/29/2006 1:28:03 AM EDT by Mauser101]
Imagine the bad guy is standing behind your daughter...do you want a rifle or a shotgun with the standard home defender's 00 Buck?

AR


Shotty


www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot18.htm

Shotguns have their place. Rifles have their place. Handguns have their place. In a TEOTWAWKI situation I'd definately prefer a shotgun for shooting at birds...but if I only have one firearm I can have at my disposal I'll take a .308.
Link Posted: 3/29/2006 1:23:23 AM EDT

Originally Posted By HarrySacz:
Sure is a lot of bullshit around here tonight. <snip>



Tonight?!?!?!?

Link Posted: 3/29/2006 1:26:15 AM EDT

Originally Posted By AILapua:

Originally Posted By HarrySacz:
Sure is a lot of bullshit around here tonight. <snip>



Tonight?!?!?!?




Just the 870 Glock guy bashing anything other than what he has. I wonder what he will do when they come for him? ''I cant hear you,come 200 yards closer''
Link Posted: 3/29/2006 1:29:37 AM EDT

Originally Posted By AILapua:

Originally Posted By HarrySacz:
Sure is a lot of bullshit around here tonight. <snip>



Tonight?!?!?!?





And the next night and so on, and so on till the earth stops spinning.
Link Posted: 3/29/2006 1:32:00 AM EDT

Originally Posted By bblake00:

Originally Posted By AILapua:

Originally Posted By HarrySacz:
Sure is a lot of bullshit around here tonight. <snip>



Tonight?!?!?!?





And the next night and so on, and so on till the earth stops spinning.



Exactly. Perhaps this is the reason my wife often refers to this section as 'Hip wader central'.

Link Posted: 3/29/2006 1:36:14 AM EDT

Originally Posted By AILapua:

Originally Posted By bblake00:

Originally Posted By AILapua:

Originally Posted By HarrySacz:
Sure is a lot of bullshit around here tonight. <snip>



Tonight?!?!?!?





And the next night and so on, and so on till the earth stops spinning.



Exactly. Perhaps this is the reason my wife often refers to this section as 'Hip wader central'.




More like a dry suite with an independant air supply.
Link Posted: 3/29/2006 2:02:23 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/29/2006 2:05:39 AM EDT by gus]
Come on now, what about when he racks the slide on his 870? I mean that alone will kill 90% of any threat, with the remaining 10% out of commission due to dehydration (from pissing themselves).

What I don't understand is why he needs 36 Glocks.

ETA: Nevermind, I get it now. Think: Claymore....
Link Posted: 3/29/2006 2:06:09 AM EDT
Dont feed the
Link Posted: 3/29/2006 2:36:23 AM EDT

Originally Posted By AILapua:

Originally Posted By bblake00:

Originally Posted By AILapua:

Originally Posted By HarrySacz:
Sure is a lot of bullshit around here tonight. <snip>



Tonight?!?!?!?





And the next night and so on, and so on till the earth stops spinning.



Exactly. Perhaps this is the reason my wife often refers to this section as 'Hip wader central'.





+1

Sounds like the beef jerky guy at the gunshow
Link Posted: 3/29/2006 2:46:53 AM EDT
The 870 (or any other pump shotgun) is versitile and has it's place. But, like other weapons, it's a tool in the tool box or another club in the golf bag. You don't putt with a driver or like the Dremel commercials "Did I mention that we cut?"
Link Posted: 3/29/2006 3:58:43 AM EDT
Come on guys, lighten up! Both weapons have their place and both have their strengths and weaknesses.

If I had the hostage situation confronting me that was pictured, and only had an 870 I would probably be ok if I had PRACTICED with the weapon and was chambering slugs.

I am a rifle guy through and through, but the authority of a shotgun at close range is without question. It could also be argued that a shotgun is less likely to cause collateral damage in an urban environment due to its much shorter effective range if you miss your intended target.

And even beyond 100 yards you could probably force your assailants to keep their heads down until you could get to your AR, FAL, M1A, etc...

Whatever happened to those kits they used to sell for mounting a shotty under the barrel of your AR a la the M203? Such a system would seem to quell the arguments of both sides of this debate...
Link Posted: 3/29/2006 4:01:58 AM EDT
Link Posted: 3/29/2006 4:09:48 AM EDT



870 is a jack-of-all-trades.

there are other tools however, that are masters of some.


Link Posted: 3/29/2006 4:12:11 AM EDT
I managed to break an 870 once, so don't tell me it cant be done.
Link Posted: 3/29/2006 4:13:28 AM EDT

Originally Posted By sigandglocks:
Having worked in several gun shops, and owned and traded for everything ever made, ..built about 30 or more ARs, owned UZI minis, and other exotics, .308s, etc. etc..........

its odd that if the "crap hit the fan" the most utilitarian AND defensive weapon would be a Remington 870, or say a Benelli M2 tactical??? (preferably the 870....fewer parts, more indestructable).

You have both a close quarters defensive weapon and mid-range defensive weapon.........capacity for birdshot for birds for food......or slugs for either big game, or humans assailants for that matter.

considering alllllllllllll the exotic crap Ive owned , HK 91s, UZIs, tons and tons of ARs, ...........all of it..........id rather, in a pinch, carry a tactically decked-out 870 12GA remington........with a bandoleer with A: birdshot...........B: mostly 00 Buck for defense.........C: Slugs for big game/ long dist. assault....... .....


870 Pump, like a glock has almost NO parts, is nearly indestructable.......

sometimes, i myself like others, have thought that the more $$$ you blew on something, the better, .......$3000 HK, etc etc, ....

but i could do more with an 870 Pump for $320 than the rest of it combined .......alas.

even with money as no object. id rather have an 870 on my back, with a choice of SLUGS, 00BUCK, and SHOT............3 guns in one, ....indestructable, all for $320.

thanks Remington



I'll take 30+ rounds of .223 or 9mm over 5-8 of 12GA

I have a shotgun, and they do have their uses... But for combat, M16/M4 for me (not that I'd have a choice, anyway - given any such scenario -> have to work -> 'you shoot waht we give you, now go fix that helicopter')...
Link Posted: 3/29/2006 4:17:03 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Airwolf:
....

While a shotgun does have its place, I wouldn't consider one for a PRIMARY SHTF weapon. Someone with a halfway decent rifle could waste your ass from outside any range that you could defend against.

Up close and personal, yup if there's nothing else but not for me as primary.

IMHO, of course.



+1
Link Posted: 3/29/2006 4:20:21 AM EDT

Originally Posted By sigandglocks:
Having worked in several gun shops



We can tell.

You are definitely retail gun counter material with this brilliance!
Link Posted: 3/29/2006 4:22:58 AM EDT
If I had to have an uber reliable SHTF jack of all trades weapon I would get a bolt gun with iron sights and load the weapon with stripper clips. A 98 Mauser or 1903 Springfield trumps a shotty every day.
Link Posted: 3/29/2006 4:24:53 AM EDT

Originally Posted By hatebreed:
Yep, Remington 870's are better than any combat weapon in the world, that's why they are in use as a primary weapon by every military that matters world wide.....

Steyr AUG's and MP5's and M16's are junk compared to 36 Glocks and a Remington 870.



+1
Link Posted: 3/29/2006 4:25:27 AM EDT
I'll respectfully disagree with this one.

A scattergun is superior in SOME situations under 25 yards of range.

A carbine like the AR15/M4 is still superior (IMO) due to it's range, shot placement accuracy, and the ability to easily carry large quantities of ammo. Those three things are the primary make-up of a SHTF weapon for me.

While I own both (of course), I'll grab the M4 first every time.

CMOS
Link Posted: 3/29/2006 4:56:34 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/29/2006 5:00:40 AM EDT by TRW]
I have an 870 and like it but it is far from perfect.

The safety and slide release locations are retarded.

I like the Mossberg 500/590 series better in that respect.

It also has only 1 extractor as opposed to the 2 on the mossberg.

The shell lifter works ass backwards also. You can get your digits caught in it during reloads, or if you aren't careful and make sure you push the shell in far enough it will spring back and jam the action, gumming up the works.

I once spent an hour on a quail hunt trying to un-jam the damn thing when I did exactly that. Hasn't happened since as I am carefull how I load it now but in an emergency situation or under some stress it could easily happen again.

Mossberg 500 is a decent gun too but also has its faults.

Now if you want a real survivalist gun get a Jennings .25
Link Posted: 3/29/2006 4:57:28 AM EDT
The 870 is nowhere near as capable as a supressed .22 rifle.

<­BR>





Link Posted: 3/29/2006 5:10:05 AM EDT

Originally Posted By SpecialOperator:
I managed to break an 870 once, so don't tell me it cant be done.





There is a little bit of spring steel inside the receiver. (Not sure what it's called , we just call it the son-of-a-bitch spring.) When that breaks it is a gunsmith only repair.

I saw one guy break two in one day.
Link Posted: 3/29/2006 5:22:09 AM EDT
If you want to choose a lesser weapon, more power to ya
Link Posted: 3/29/2006 5:35:00 AM EDT
Link Posted: 3/29/2006 5:37:09 AM EDT
obvious
Link Posted: 3/29/2006 11:25:09 AM EDT

Originally Posted By shotar:

Originally Posted By hatebreed:

Originally Posted By sigandglocks:

If you think a .308 or any Scoped Rifle is a "PRIMARY" in a CHAOS/ANARCHY climate,...then youve given it NO thought at all...............



Probably a little more thought than somebody grabbing a Remington 870 as a primary. Want to put your trusty 870 up against an FAL or a HK91 or AR10 in a SHTF situation?

No wait, you're right, .308's are also ALL junk.

Just like AR15/M16's and MP5's and AUG's.




If used within its limitations, yes. Higher hit probability in a close in situation and anything beyond 100 yards is likely not a threat. In a worste case last ditch scenario it also makes a formidable club. Ask alot of people who have actually carried a gun for business what they would take if they could have only one and more often then not, the answer would be the 870.



You honestly believe if I ask a professional soldier or cop or whatever what they'd carry as a primary weapon in a "CHAOS/ANARCHY climate" they would tell me a Remington 870?

You think as a last ditch effort a shotgun makes any more "formidable" of a club than any other rifle?

Nothing beyond 100 yards is a threat huh? Unless it happens to be pointing a rifle in your direction.

As for higher hit probability that is probably true out to 60 yards or so. Anything beyond that not only does an AR or 308 rifle have a better or at least as good of a hit probability it is also incredibly more likely to penetrate your cover.

That's my opinion, but I'm no expert. You can think what you want, but there's no way for a general SHTF/chaos anarchy situation that a shotgun would be my first choice. If I'm holding down my house maybe, but if I have to travel to the outside world, no way. I'm grabbing a rifle.

Link Posted: 3/29/2006 11:35:06 AM EDT

Originally Posted By TRW:
I have an 870 and like it but it is far from perfect.

The safety and slide release locations are retarded.

I like the Mossberg 500/590 series better in that respect.

It also has only 1 extractor as opposed to the 2 on the mossberg.




I kindof wish I'd have bought an 500 instead of my 870 for those reasons. I was seduced by a preinstalled mag extension and green duracoat.
Link Posted: 3/29/2006 11:48:54 AM EDT
In a defensive situation I consider a pistol to be superior under 3 meters (less chance of being grabbed and easyer to clear rooms and no disadvantage in accuracy) and a shotgun superior from 3 to 25 yards (00 buck has a better one shot kill likelyhood). The carbine is queen from 25 to 200 yards to be replaced by the percision rifle.

I have my toolbox arranged accordingly.

The carbine however is the only weapon that is still efective well under and over its optimal range (especially in a multiple zombie situation), so if there is one ultimate "SHTF survival weapon" it's a carbine.
Link Posted: 3/29/2006 11:54:10 AM EDT

Originally Posted By sigandglocks:

Originally Posted By hatebreed:
Yep, Remington 870's are better than any combat weapon in the world, that's why they are in use as a primary weapon by every military that matters world wide.....

Steyr AUG's and MP5's and M16's are junk compared to 36 Glocks and a Remington 870.




your context is out of place, i was referring to a survivalist climate, not to warfare with tanks and M60 machineguns.......... ...........and by the way, the Steyr AUG is junk, its used by VERY FEW.

and, in case you didnt know, im sure you didnt know,.......theres an ENORMOUS ammount of 12GA pumps being carried in IRAQ right now.

A 12GA 00BUCK not only is 100 times superior to a 223 zipping thru your gut, but also, as IRAQ SOLDIERS have found, very very nicely Opens Doors


100 yards and under, i can do FAR more damage to anything, flying, walking, on 2 feet, or 4 hoofs....with my 12GA pump , than you can with your overengineered junk Steyr AUG



OK, this is a troll account just poking some fun...right?
Link Posted: 3/29/2006 12:04:11 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/29/2006 12:05:24 PM EDT by st0newall]
when SHTF i plan not to be there. if your position is being overrun, gooks comin in over the wire, you holdin em off with your (your choice (FAL,AR15,rem870,lee-infield,bromehandle mauser,cavalary sword)) they prolly gonna have (their choice(motars,flamethrowers,m1 tanks,katusha rockets,155 mobile howitzers, tactical nukes)) and that means you better have some warthogs and apache choppers in reserve along with a full mobile medical triage unit to patch you up)....

SHTF, best not to be around.... you wanna continue to 'survive'...
Link Posted: 3/29/2006 12:16:08 PM EDT
Link Posted: 3/29/2006 12:20:34 PM EDT

Originally Posted By sigandglocks:
A 12GA 00BUCK not only is 100 times superior to a 223 zipping thru your gut, but also, as IRAQ SOLDIERS have found, very very nicely Opens Doors




But if I can send 3 or 4 .223 rounds "zipping through your gut" from 2 or 300 yards, your shotgun becomes useless locked in your "cold dead hand".
Link Posted: 3/29/2006 12:30:16 PM EDT

Originally Posted By sigandglocks:
Having worked in several gun shops, and owned and traded for everything ever made, ..built about 30 or more ARs, owned UZI minis, and other exotics, .308s, etc. etc..........

its odd that if the "crap hit the fan" the most utilitarian AND defensive weapon would be a Remington 870, or say a Benelli M2 tactical??? (preferably the 870....fewer parts, more indestructable).

You have both a close quarters defensive weapon and mid-range defensive weapon.........capacity for birdshot for birds for food......or slugs for either big game, or humans assailants for that matter.

considering alllllllllllll the exotic crap Ive owned , HK 91s, UZIs, tons and tons of ARs, ...........all of it..........id rather, in a pinch, carry a tactically decked-out 870 12GA remington........with a bandoleer with A: birdshot...........B: mostly 00 Buck for defense.........C: Slugs for big game/ long dist. assault....... .....


870 Pump, like a glock has almost NO parts, is nearly indestructable.......

sometimes, i myself like others, have thought that the more $$$ you blew on something, the better, .......$3000 HK, etc etc, ....

but i could do more with an 870 Pump for $320 than the rest of it combined .......alas.

even with money as no object. id rather have an 870 on my back, with a choice of SLUGS, 00BUCK, and SHOT............3 guns in one, ....indestructable, all for $320.

thanks Remington




HOLY PERIOD ABUSE, BATMAN!!!!!


This troll was last seen posting his infamous "36 Glock" pics back on Glocktalk before he was ridiculed into oblivion. Glad to see he learned his lesson

GT post link...
Link Posted: 3/29/2006 12:33:25 PM EDT
12 gauge doesn't do too well against body armor either...
Link Posted: 3/29/2006 12:38:05 PM EDT
I'll take my bolt action 300 Winchester magnum for SHTF.

Link Posted: 3/29/2006 12:39:01 PM EDT
I'd prefer to not have one freaking gun for a situation like this...
Link Posted: 3/29/2006 12:39:13 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/29/2006 12:39:36 PM EDT by CRC]

Originally Posted By NME:
12 gauge doesn't do too well against body armor either...



And neither do handguns.


Link Posted: 3/29/2006 12:51:54 PM EDT
I'll somewhat agree. I think a 12 guage shotgun is great for sub 100 yard performance. I think it has its place because like the AR-15 it can be used for defense, small game, and large game. I'd rank the shotgun in 2nd place overall in a SHTF situation between an AR-15 and a Handgun. Of course, YMMV.

Link Posted: 3/29/2006 12:55:01 PM EDT

Originally Posted By CRC:

Originally Posted By NME:
12 gauge doesn't do too well against body armor either...



And neither do handguns.





Yup.
Link Posted: 3/29/2006 1:00:00 PM EDT
You'd be wrong.
A shotgun is a terrible weapon for SHTF.
Rifles are always king.
Link Posted: 3/29/2006 1:09:56 PM EDT

Originally Posted By thedoctors308:
You'd be wrong.
A shotgun is a terrible weapon for SHTF.
Rifles are always king.



Not really.

Why then do lots of police pack shotguns?
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