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Posted: 3/28/2006 9:44:02 PM EDT
Im sure this has been asked, but oh well....

In the situation like that, before SWAT arrived, could they have takin head shots? Well, atleast tried? Or are they not supposed to do those type of shots?
Link Posted: 3/28/2006 9:48:34 PM EDT
If you could get a head shot from that kind of distance with a pistol against people with FA rifles, then God bless you. In reality, it was quite a shitty situation.


A good argument for some patrol rifles to be handed out.


- BG
Link Posted: 3/28/2006 9:48:41 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/28/2006 9:49:02 PM EDT by steve-oh]
Actually on the radio one of the officers was telling everyone to take a headshot if they had it, well before SWAT arrived.
I just imagine that it would have been difficult to do given the circumstances.
Link Posted: 3/28/2006 9:50:18 PM EDT

Originally Posted By FieroLoki:
Im sure this has been asked, but oh well....

In the situation like that, before SWAT arrived, could they have takin head shots? Well, atleast tried? Or are they not supposed to do those type of shots?



I'll be damned if I'd let "supposed to" and "not supposed to" matter to me if I were in that situation.
Link Posted: 3/28/2006 9:50:54 PM EDT
Well yeah, definantly a difficult shot in the siuation, just didnt know, if normal cops (non SWAT) were "authorized" to take them, or more along the lines of "whatever it takes" type thing.
Link Posted: 3/28/2006 9:51:37 PM EDT
You'd propbably be better off just trying to hit them with the police cruiser
Link Posted: 3/28/2006 9:52:27 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/28/2006 9:54:56 PM EDT by platz2]
Sure, headshots at 50 yds with 9mm beretta's, and 18 inch shotguns while being shot at with full auto ak-whatevers are a breeze. I cant believe they didnt think of that at the time, what were they thinking?
ETA: it only seems so easy because I've shot so many big game animals with 12 guage buckshot at 400 yards. Those cops dont get the same training I do.
Link Posted: 3/28/2006 9:53:41 PM EDT

Originally Posted By BUCC_Guy:
If you could get a head shot from that kind of distance with a pistol against people with FA rifles, then God bless you. In reality, it was quite a shitty situation.


A good argument for some patrol rifles to be handed out.


- BG



+ eleventy billion. On all points.

Link Posted: 3/28/2006 9:53:47 PM EDT

Originally Posted By platz2:
Sure, headshots at 50 yds with 9mm beretta's, and 18 inch shotguns while being shot at with full auto ak-whatevers are a breeze. I cant believe they didnt think of that at the time, what were they thinking?



Dont have to be an ass about it Mr. Sarcasm. Was a serious question...
Link Posted: 3/28/2006 9:56:31 PM EDT
Sorry, I was making fun of the expected replies you'd get to your question, more than your question. Just having a little fun at arfcom's expense, not yours.
Link Posted: 3/28/2006 9:58:02 PM EDT

Originally Posted By platz2:
Sure, headshots at 50 yds with 9mm beretta's, and 18 inch shotguns while being shot at with full auto ak-whatevers are a breeze. I cant believe they didnt think of that at the time, what were they thinking?
ETA: it only seems so easy because I've shot so many big game animals with 12 guage buckshot at 400 yards. Those cops dont get the same training I do.



you would think somebody would get lucky with the volume of fire
Link Posted: 3/28/2006 10:00:22 PM EDT
I'm curious as to how many shots landed at all.

Even with a vest on, a pistol round impacting is going to cause significant bruising. So getting hit dozens of times (as I've heard they shrugged off dozens of pistol shots and slugs) is probably going toslow you down some.
Link Posted: 3/28/2006 10:00:30 PM EDT
Coming at it from another angle, what if someone (maybe an ARFCOMMER) were to come upon a scene like that, and start sniping bad guys from a distance? Would they get locked up for it?
Link Posted: 3/28/2006 10:01:56 PM EDT
they said they tried but at the distance of the shootout it was not effective in teh accuracy dept.
Link Posted: 3/28/2006 10:02:49 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/28/2006 10:03:25 PM EDT by Hylton]

Originally Posted By GoGop:
Coming at it from another angle, what if someone (maybe an ARFCOMMER) were to come upon a scene like that, and start sniping bad guys from a distance? Would they get locked up for it?




That word kills me
Link Posted: 3/28/2006 10:03:03 PM EDT

Originally Posted By platz2:
Sorry, I was making fun of the expected replies you'd get to your question, more than your question. Just having a little fun at arfcom's expense, not yours.



OKee dokee then
Link Posted: 3/28/2006 10:03:07 PM EDT

Originally Posted By platz2:
Sorry, I was making fun of the expected replies you'd get to your question, more than your question. Just having a little fun at arfcom's expense, not yours.



On post number 6?

If you post something not to be taken seriously, put a or at the end of it.

Link Posted: 3/28/2006 10:03:24 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Katana16j:
I'm curious as to how many shots landed at all.

Even with a vest on, a pistol round impacting is going to cause significant bruising. So getting hit dozens of times (as I've heard they shrugged off dozens of pistol shots and slugs) is probably going toslow you down some.



I believe they were also on muscle relaxers/pain killers
Link Posted: 3/28/2006 10:03:57 PM EDT

Originally Posted By GoGop:
Coming at it from another angle, what if someone (maybe an ARFCOMMER) were to come upon a scene like that, and start sniping bad guys from a distance? Would they get locked up for it?



We had something like that happen here in Tyler last year. He died, but he saved lives as well, so I dont think they would get in "to" much trouble. But dont take my word for it.
Link Posted: 3/28/2006 10:06:33 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Katana16j:
I'm curious as to how many shots landed at all.

Even with a vest on, a pistol round impacting is going to cause significant bruising. So getting hit dozens of times (as I've heard they shrugged off dozens of pistol shots and slugs) is probably going toslow you down some.



Before they entered the bank they both juiced up on phenobarbitol though. The one guy that finally put a shot through his own skull had been shot (dont quote me here) a dozen times.
Link Posted: 3/28/2006 10:09:38 PM EDT

Originally Posted By FieroLoki:

Originally Posted By GoGop:
Coming at it from another angle, what if someone (maybe an ARFCOMMER) were to come upon a scene like that, and start sniping bad guys from a distance? Would they get locked up for it?



We had something like that happen here in Tyler last year. He died, but he saved lives as well, so I dont think they would get in "to" much trouble. But dont take my word for it.



Yeah, and where were you at? You pussy!
Link Posted: 3/28/2006 10:10:37 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Red-Bucket-98:

On post number 6?


We cant all be SGTAR15 can we?
Link Posted: 3/28/2006 10:11:45 PM EDT

Originally Posted By BUCC_Guy:
If you could get a head shot from that kind of distance with a pistol against people with FA rifles, then God bless you. In reality, it was quite a shitty situation.


A good argument for some patrol rifles to be handed out.


- BG



Not if you have tabi boots. Just find a tall building and ninja down on a rope and you'll be right above them and they won't even know.

Ashida Kim taught this great course on it last year.
Link Posted: 3/28/2006 10:11:57 PM EDT
I believe that one of the bad guys was finally taken down that way.

The Tyler guy was a chl trainer that, from reports, shot the bg in the chest multiple times and stopped to look. The bg didn't fall down. That's when he got shot, crawled behind cover, and the bg came around the car and shot him point blank. But, there seems to be little doubt that he did save lives. The bg got back in his truck after the exchange and took off.

FieroLoki, you do any of the local shoots in the area?
Link Posted: 3/28/2006 10:12:20 PM EDT

Originally Posted By GoGop:
Coming at it from another angle, what if someone (maybe an ARFCOMMER) were to come upon a scene like that, and start sniping bad guys from a distance? Would they get locked up for it?



That what I keep thinking about.
Link Posted: 3/28/2006 10:15:55 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Sader762:
I believe that one of the bad guys was finally taken down that way.

The Tyler guy was a chl trainer that, from reports, shot the bg in the chest multiple times and stopped to look. The bg didn't fall down. That's when he got shot, crawled behind cover, and the bg came around the car and shot him point blank. But, there seems to be little doubt that he did save lives. The bg got back in his truck after the exchange and took off.

FieroLoki, you do any of the local shoots in the area?



If I recall correctly, the BG was concentrating on a couple of other victims when the Good Guy fired at him, thus distracting and saving their lives.
Link Posted: 3/28/2006 10:17:52 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Sader762:
I believe that one of the bad guys was finally taken down that way.

The Tyler guy was a chl trainer that, from reports, shot the bg in the chest multiple times and stopped to look. The bg didn't fall down. That's when he got shot, crawled behind cover, and the bg came around the car and shot him point blank. But, there seems to be little doubt that he did save lives. The bg got back in his truck after the exchange and took off.

FieroLoki, you do any of the local shoots in the area?




Either my house, or Lock & Load.. Hehehhe
Link Posted: 3/28/2006 10:17:54 PM EDT

If I recall correctly, the BG was concentrating on a couple of other victims when the Good Guy fired at him, thus distracting and saving their lives.



Yep, he was. he chl guy lived in the square on a second floor apartment. When he heard the shooting he came down with his pistol. Must not have been an Arfcommer....
Link Posted: 3/28/2006 10:22:58 PM EDT
Lock&Load......AAAARRRGGHHHHH

Sorry, I can't stand the place. It seems more like a yuppy store than anything. But on the otherside you can buy GI AR mags for $28.95 there now .

I stepped back in the place 2 weeks agoafter more than a year of staying away. I was wanting to buy cash in hand a Glock or XD. Couldn't get help. People looked at me but no acknowledgement, they kept helping the "regulars" that kept coming in. Oh well, last time I'll go in there.

HOLY THREAD DRIFT BATMAN...........
Link Posted: 3/28/2006 10:24:56 PM EDT
Tyler..near Mineola, no?
Link Posted: 3/28/2006 10:25:15 PM EDT

Originally Posted By platz2:
[

Before they entered the bank they both juiced up on phenobarbitol though. The one guy that finally put a shot through his own skull had been shot (dont quote me here) a dozen times.




The one who shot himself was hit eleven times included the self inflicted. The other guy was hit 29 times
Link Posted: 3/28/2006 10:28:59 PM EDT
One of the bank robbers was hit in the head at the same time he shot himself. They still cant tell which shot actually killed him.
Link Posted: 3/28/2006 10:29:25 PM EDT

Tyler..near Mineola, no?


45 min. south on 69
Link Posted: 3/28/2006 10:34:31 PM EDT
If cops were as good of a shot to take out those guys at those distances...there would be quite a bit fewer bad guys in prison.

In no way am I knocking police marksmanship btw. [
Link Posted: 3/28/2006 10:35:27 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Sader762:

Tyler..near Mineola, no?


45 min. south on 69



sorry to go slightly off-topic here but- how far from Jefferson??

Thanks

--VT
Link Posted: 3/28/2006 10:37:14 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Katana16j:
You'd propbably be better off just trying to hit them with the police cruiser



+1

Link Posted: 3/28/2006 10:37:22 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Sader762:
Lock&Load......AAAARRRGGHHHHH

Sorry, I can't stand the place. It seems more like a yuppy store than anything. But on the otherside you can buy GI AR mags for $28.95 there now .

I stepped back in the place 2 weeks agoafter more than a year of staying away. I was wanting to buy cash in hand a Glock or XD. Couldn't get help. People looked at me but no acknowledgement, they kept helping the "regulars" that kept coming in. Oh well, last time I'll go in there.

HOLY THREAD DRIFT BATMAN...........



Really? WOW!! Ive never had an issue there with anyone. Maybe it was the time you went in? Meh, who knows.....
Link Posted: 3/28/2006 10:38:37 PM EDT


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally Posted By Sader762:


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Tyler..near Mineola, no?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------




45 min. south on 69
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------




sorry to go slightly off-topic here but- how far from Jefferson??

Thanks




Tyler Map
Link Posted: 3/28/2006 10:41:44 PM EDT

Originally Posted By VT4meGunCtrlisAntiUS:

Originally Posted By Sader762:

Tyler..near Mineola, no?


45 min. south on 69



sorry to go slightly off-topic here but- how far from Jefferson??

Thanks

--VT



Jefferson is about 80 miles NE of Tyler.
Link Posted: 3/28/2006 10:44:37 PM EDT
Hey thanks guys. I have some family in those parts.

East Texas is just beautiful!!

--VT
Link Posted: 3/28/2006 10:48:04 PM EDT

Originally Posted By dsg2003gt:
If cops were as good of a shot to take out those guys at those distances...there would be quite a bit fewer bad guys in prison.

In no way am I knocking police marksmanship btw. [



Most cops can't shoot for shit, but then again most of the public does even worse.
Link Posted: 3/29/2006 2:48:58 AM EDT
A head shot with a handgun while being shot at with FA is like trying to piss between the blade of a running fan.
When I became a LEO I would shoot everyday, I got to the point I would hunt rabbit with a pistol. Fast reaction, draw, shoot. I had placed the added restriction on myself that I wanted head shots only. I messed up a lot of rabbit meat, but I could do it.
Rabbits werent shooting at me. From cover with a clear shot and less then 40 yards with time to aim only maybe.
Link Posted: 3/29/2006 7:24:44 PM EDT
Not to be too pointed but to join in unannounced and unasked is likely to be fatal, at least in the NoHo scenario. The PD is setting up a containment perimeter, and they are entirely sure what is happening or how many BGs are involved. You show up and start taking shots or appearing to be getting ready to take shots outside that perimeter. At the same time probably several hundred LEOs are coming to the scene and there you are apparently shooting or getting ready to shoot at the LEOs on the containment perimeter. Whaddaya wanna bet your live expectancy is going to be?

Now in a small town, especially where you know most of the local LEOs, you probably aren't going to have quite the challenges.

Also you need to remember what the urban environment is in the neighborhood and your actual real chance of seeing anything in excess of a hundred yards. And the scene was moving.

In a big city situation, Now if you could convince an LEO to get you to the right supervisor who decided to think outside the box a bit and let you join in the festivities, you might get hooked up with somebody that can get you in to a point to be useful. But during the same time period, the SWAT guys are going to be arriving, and frankly in todays litigous society do you expect that a city is going to let an unknown guy start shooting? with all the citizens around? What credentials are you going to provide that will convince them?

Again this is scenario dependent, if they have bunches of bad guys shooting up the citizens, you have acceptable credentials, and the ETA for reinforcements is in the neighborhood of half an hour, you just might get some blessings and asked to to help.

BTW an ETA of SWAT traversing the busy streets of LA especially when traffic is even more fouled up by the incident is variable.

Too many of the guys base their answers of what they would do, what they should have done, etc etc is based on their small town rural environment and not on any kind of knowledge of what a big city is really like.
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