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Posted: 3/28/2006 8:12:49 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/28/2006 8:49:04 PM EDT by PeteCO]
I am a right handed shooter. Are you supposed to keep your left elbow down and your right elbow sticking out to the side, or do I remember this wrong?

Should I even try Isoceles? Not trying to start a religious debate, but I have heard it is for people who aren't really shooters, like cops who aren't gun people.
Link Posted: 3/28/2006 8:13:40 PM EDT
i keep my right arm pretty much straight, but i'm fucked up anyway
Link Posted: 3/28/2006 8:15:29 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Napoleon_Tanerite:
i keep my right arm pretty much straight, but i'm fucked up anyway


I couldnt have said it better myself.
James
Link Posted: 3/28/2006 8:17:14 PM EDT
I use the "keep your feet moving at all times" stance. My arms end up all over the place anyways.
Link Posted: 3/28/2006 8:19:06 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/28/2006 8:20:17 PM EDT by HoustonHusker]
Keep your right arm straight and your left elbow in towards your torso. It's a push/pull shot that keeps you on target. The modified Weaver allows you to forward your left foot slightly to pull the right arm in closer. That's my shooting stance.

HH
Link Posted: 3/28/2006 8:45:01 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/28/2006 8:47:53 PM EDT by PeteCO]

Originally Posted By HoustonHusker:
Keep your right arm straight and your left elbow in towards your torso. It's a push/pull shot that keeps you on target. The modified Weaver allows you to forward your left foot slightly to pull the right arm in closer. That's my shooting stance.

HH



I tend to keep my torso leaning forward a bit, and my left foot forward as well.

However, I usually keep my right arm bent quite a bit for the whole push/pull tension thing.

It may be moot - I'm going to the Tactical Response training here in CO (in Oct.) and it looks like they shoot Isoceles.
Link Posted: 3/29/2006 7:30:27 AM EDT
Use whatever works best for you.
Link Posted: 3/29/2006 7:33:57 AM EDT

Originally Posted By HoustonHusker:
Keep your right arm straight and your left elbow in towards your torso. It's a push/pull shot that keeps you on target. The modified Weaver allows you to forward your left foot slightly to pull the right arm in closer. That's my shooting stance.

HH




thats basically how I shoot.
Link Posted: 3/29/2006 7:43:11 AM EDT
I like to hold it with only one hand, right arm fully extended, palm side down, just like the rappers.
Link Posted: 3/29/2006 7:43:14 AM EDT
I use the right arm straight, left arm tucked and bent a bit like HoustonHusker said.

Never really paid much attention to my feet. I figure upper body position is more important.
Link Posted: 3/29/2006 7:52:54 AM EDT

Originally Posted By PeteCO:
I am a right handed shooter. Are you supposed to keep your left elbow down and your right elbow sticking out to the side, or do I remember this wrong?

Should I even try Isoceles? Not trying to start a religious debate, but I have heard it is for people who aren't really shooters, like cops who aren't gun people.



I dont know who told you that but I think that they are mistaken. Both Shooting stances have their uses. Watch a IPSC or USPSA and see what shooting stance they use ehen shooting on the move or what they use for a longer distance shot. In the end it is whatever is comfortable and works best for you.
Link Posted: 3/29/2006 8:03:38 AM EDT
Whatever modified ninja stance you use remember this. Bring the sights up to eye level and not the other way around.
Link Posted: 3/29/2006 8:15:49 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/29/2006 5:21:54 PM EDT by Derek45]
Weaver was made obsolete by Rob Leatham, and Brian Enos when they started really kicking ass in IPSC, Bianchi cup, and steel.

If you look at the top shooters in the world, almost all are shooting like this.

www.robleatham.com/museumgallery.htm

Notice both thumbs are pointing forward....



Here's a video of Todd Jarret explaining how to hold a handgun.....

(hope this is the correct link, i'm on a slow dial-up today)
video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-4584332856867071363


Here's some info cut & pasted from www.mattburkett.com/

Most of the basic shooting problems that I seee come from an improper grip (this includes tension and hand placement) and incorrect upper body position.
The basics: Keep the head up and straight - not canted left or right to the gun. Shoulders square. The arms bent. Hands together. Trigger finger free for movement. Both eyes open.
Place the strong hand on the grip as high as possible, both front and rear. The strong hand thumb should always be on the safety. (when shooting weak hand the thumb should also always ride the safety) I relieve the bottom rear of the trigger guard on my guns to put my right hand at a more natural angle and reduce the pressure on the joint of the middle finger.
The trigger finger should not touch or rub on the gun anywhere other than the trigger. The pad of the finger should be used - not the first joint. This will provide better trigger control.
The placement of the weak hand in a freestyle grip is where most people make mistakes. First the fingers should all be under the trigger guard. Your weak hand index finger should never be on the front of the trigger guard. Second, there should be total hand to hand contact at the left rear of the gun. (this is based on being right handed) The left hand should not sit straight forward on the gun. It should be canted at an angle with the back of the hand being higher on the gun than the front. If you trace you thumb on your left hand back past the knuckle to the base by the wrist, this should be in between the first joint and the knuckle of the right thumb. This is going to cock the left hand at an angle and complete the contact between both hands. This also serves another purpose of bringing different arm muscles in on controlling the gun. You should feel the muscles on the top of the left arm by the elbow doing the work. If the hand is straight you will feel the strain on the bottom of the arm.
Both thumbs should be pointing at the target and your arms should be pushing out in a positive tension against the gun. Several schools teach a push/pull technique. Why should you pull on the gun when it is already going that way during recoil? Also be sure not to lock the arms out. This transfers all of the guns energy into your shoulders also does not allow you to work on the recoil of the gun.
The left arm should be more straight than the right arm, which is probably the opposite that you've been told. (If your shoulders are relaxed, not hunched up, and you are standing square to the target, your left hand has to be further out than the right hand.)
Grip tension should be about 60% weak hand and 40% strong hand. Do not strangle the gun. More tension in the shooting hand = less trigger speed. If you have a proper grip you will be surprised at how little work you have to do to control the gun. There are several drills I have to develop your grip, but, a good starting point is to use the same grip on the right hand that you would on a hammer. (what you use to hit nails with J ) Use slightly more tension in the left hand. If you are seeing a significant upper right torque on the gun try increasing the grip strength on the left hand and decreasing the strength on the right. This should straiten the recoil path out for you.
This grip may feel uncomfortable at first. Try it out for a couple of weeks and I bet you will see a difference.
As for the stance I use check out the following:
Have you ever watched boxing? Notice how they are leaned slightly forward, standing on the balls of their feet, knees bent, feet about shoulder width apart, tip of the weak foot approximately 3-6" in front of the tip of the strong foot and their body is loose and relaxed. To find how much to bend your knees, I visualize a vertical line from my kneecap to the ball of the foot. The hips should be in a natural position with the back and your center of balance low over the balls of your feet. I prefer to have the front of the shoulders a minimum of an inch in front of the hips. I lean the entire upper body forward. If the shoulders are at or behind center you will not have any control over your shooting. You shouldn’t feel any pressure on the back or neck muscles in this position. If you are, you most likely are leaning the shoulders forward but not rotating the hips with them. I breath through the stomach for shooting as upper body breathing disturbs the gun. I also try to maintain about 60% of my weight on the balls of my feet.
Get into this shooting stance and have someone push against your outstretched hands. You want them to use a solid constant pressure. If they can push you over, you are too tight or your legs or elbows are locked. As more energy comes in make sure that you don’t rock back on your heels. Your body will overcome it for you if you just let it; rotate the hips and upper body more and bend your knees slightly more.
This will show you how to apply positive forward tension with your whole body.
This is the way to the fastest shooting. Relaxed but in control.
__________________
Notes on the above:
The more relaxed and comfortable your stance, the better decsion making you will do.
Failures I see with the Weaver Stance. IMHO
Quartering the body off center reduces the effectiveness of body armor by exposing upto a 1/3 of your chest.
Leaning around the right side of a barricade gives minimal exposure with the stance, but, the left side is awkward. With my stance exposure is minimized in either position by rotating the outside elbow inwards. This keeps the arm from being exposed. The only exposed area are the eyes and the gun.
Under pressue and adreniline, I have seen the Weaver stance fail. When we get an adreniline rush, which arm is stronger? Well we call it the strong arm for a reason. It seems to have a tendancy to overcome the weak arm when firing resulting in the second shot (sometimes even the first) to be extreme low left. With my stance since you are using positive forward tension with both hands and arms, the stance doesn't self destruct when you put more energy into it. It just gets stronger.
Additional notes:
Weak/Strong Hand shooting: I use the exact same stance for this as I do for two hands. Main part I add is the anchoring of the off hand. This keeps the off hand from becoming a pendulum.
Rifle shooting: Same stance with a couple of minor changes. On a rifle I do pull it back into my shoulder with more energy being imparted with my weak arm than my strong arm. This helps keep the strong hand relaxed for better trigger control. Left arm is in approximately extended the same as when it was on the handgun. I shoot with the same head and body positioning that I use with a handgun.
Obviously since this is a stance discussion, the draw and presentation to stance hasn't been covered. It also doesn't cover my "pinch and roll" technique with the weak hand.
Remember to take everything with a grain of salt. Learn everything, use what works for you and your situation.
Best of luck with your shooting,
Link Posted: 3/29/2006 8:17:46 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/29/2006 8:19:46 AM EDT by ShadowCompany]

Originally Posted By PeteCO:
I am a right handed shooter. Are you supposed to keep your left elbow down and your right elbow sticking out to the side, or do I remember this wrong?




Are you talking about rifle or handgun shooting. What you describe sounds more like a rifle stance but some of the follow up comments I think are describing a handgun stance.

I've never heard of keeping your right elbow sticking out to the side when firing a handgun. And likewise I've never heard of keeping your right arm straight when firing a rifle...unless the elbow is bent.
Link Posted: 3/29/2006 4:28:09 PM EDT

Originally Posted By ShadowCompany:

Originally Posted By PeteCO:
I am a right handed shooter. Are you supposed to keep your left elbow down and your right elbow sticking out to the side, or do I remember this wrong?




Are you talking about rifle or handgun shooting. What you describe sounds more like a rifle stance but some of the follow up comments I think are describing a handgun stance.

I've never heard of keeping your right elbow sticking out to the side when firing a handgun. And likewise I've never heard of keeping your right arm straight when firing a rifle...unless the elbow is bent.



Handgun.
Link Posted: 3/29/2006 5:01:44 PM EDT
60% weakhand, 40% strong hand.

Crap I've had it backwards the entire time.
Link Posted: 3/29/2006 5:03:01 PM EDT
The state of Texas supposably reviewed hundreds of tapes of state troopers firing their handguns under stress and found no one actually used the Weaver in these conditions. They always went isoceles.
Link Posted: 3/29/2006 5:11:24 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Houstons_Problem:
The state of Texas supposably reviewed hundreds of tapes of state troopers firing their handguns under stress and found no one actually used the Weaver in these conditions. They always went isoceles.



Even if they were never trained in Isoceles? If so, that would indicate that an Isoceles-like stance is somewhat "instinctive".
Link Posted: 3/29/2006 5:13:26 PM EDT
Isoceles is how I shoot.

Weaver is Hollywood. IMHO.
Link Posted: 3/29/2006 6:05:47 PM EDT
I shoot in a weaver stance.It's very natural for me as it has very similar body positioning to shooting a rifle or a boxing stance.In a weaver stance as in a boxing stance you angle the body to create a smaller target for your opponent while remaining both stable and mobile.These are the reasons I personally prefer the weaver.Every other combat related discipline I train or have ever trained in taught NOT to square up against an attacker.That's my two bits and it's worth exactly what you paid for it.
Link Posted: 3/29/2006 6:14:48 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/29/2006 6:19:53 PM EDT by ffsparky26]
Grip Grip Grip, stance will follow.

I a a follower of the post modern pistol technique. My training came from Tactical Response out of Camden, TN.

They teach the both thumbs pointing forward, majority of the pressure in your grip in the weak hand. A good outline of this technique is in the Kelly McCan (sp.) Jim Grover video series on pistl shooting.

I really like it. It works well for me and allows for good control of recoil. I mean the gun is like a damn laser beam with the thumb forward grip.

I would suggest you take your next gun purchase fundage and put that towards a 2 day fighting pistol class at Tactical Response. You would get a lot out of it. I would suggest you make a list of questions you want to ask before you go. They will throw a lot of material at you fast, but not overwhelming. You will probably forget any questions you had.

edited to add

a good example of why the 60 weak hand / 40 gun hand is a good idea is this.

Take your strong hand and extend your trigger finger, as if you are pointing at someone and gripping a pistol with the other fingers.

First Test (Tight Strong Hand)

Now clench your fingers in that hand down tight, except for your trigger finger. Now try to move your trigger finger smoothly with control. It's pretty hard to do.

Second Test (Less tension on the Strong Hand)

Now loosen up your fingers in the strong hand so that you are not clinched. Now move your trigger finger. It's much smoother.

So by using the 60/40 grip you just improved your trigger pull.



Link Posted: 3/29/2006 6:58:45 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/29/2006 7:04:07 PM EDT by PeteCO]

Originally Posted By ffsparky26:
Grip Grip Grip, stance will follow.

I a a follower of the post modern pistol technique. My training came from Tactical Response out of Camden, TN.

They teach the both thumbs pointing forward, majority of the pressure in your grip in the weak hand. A good outline of this technique is in the Kelly McCan (sp.) Jim Grover video series on pistl shooting.

I really like it. It works well for me and allows for good control of recoil. I mean the gun is like a damn laser beam with the thumb forward grip.

I would suggest you take your next gun purchase fundage and put that towards a 2 day fighting pistol class at Tactical Response. You would get a lot out of it. I would suggest you make a list of questions you want to ask before you go. They will throw a lot of material at you fast, but not overwhelming. You will probably forget any questions you had.

edited to add

a good example of why the 60 weak hand / 40 gun hand is a good idea is this.

Take your strong hand and extend your trigger finger, as if you are pointing at someone and gripping a pistol with the other fingers.

First Test (Tight Strong Hand)

Now clench your fingers in that hand down tight, except for your trigger finger. Now try to move your trigger finger smoothly with control. It's pretty hard to do.

Second Test (Less tension on the Strong Hand)

Now loosen up your fingers in the strong hand so that you are not clinched. Now move your trigger finger. It's much smoother.

So by using the 60/40 grip you just improved your trigger pull.






Just tried some of that dry-fire. Seems pretty sound - thanks.

I am going to the Tactical Response Fighting Pistol course here in October BTW, and I was going to post on the Training board asking what stance they evangelize.
Link Posted: 3/29/2006 7:06:00 PM EDT
I shoot obtuse.
Link Posted: 3/29/2006 7:15:23 PM EDT
A Weaver type stance has always felt more natural for me. I was shooting with a modified Weaver when I was a kid, years before I knew there was such thing a "stance." I also find it much easier to transition from moving to shooting and vice versa from a Weaver based stance.

Bottom line, use what feels most natural and allows you to shoot better.
Link Posted: 3/30/2006 5:14:00 PM EDT

Originally Posted By PeteCO:

Originally Posted By Houstons_Problem:
The state of Texas supposably reviewed hundreds of tapes of state troopers firing their handguns under stress and found no one actually used the Weaver in these conditions. They always went isoceles.



Even if they were never trained in Isoceles? If so, that would indicate that an Isoceles-like stance is somewhat "instinctive".



There was no indication as to how many of the officers trained weaver. The point is that NO[ one used weaver under stress. I would expect that at least some of the officers would have been trained weaver. They also indicated that the isoceles was a more rigid setup with respect to the recoil operation of semi-auto pistols. I could see the logic in this statement and have to wonder if would result in more reliable operation of extra light guns like the small .45 glock (36?) especially when fired by smaller people.

I thought about it for a minute and decided to do my CHL test a bit differently than everone else. I decided that for the close range shooting (3 yards and 5 yards) that I would not use the sights at all, but just go isoceles and pull the trigger as soon as the top of the gun was centered in my glasses. The goal was to be the first to pull the trigger and then compare targets with everyone else.

I found that I was always first to get the shot off, because I could hear everyone fire down the line. The pause was fairly amazing. (Timed it probably wasn't much)

Most people who did not know that I was not aiming thought that my total grouping was well placed and decently tight. It was certainly tighter and better placed than most of the class. It was obviously not as tight as those who were good shots and actually aimed. I definitely think that some part of training ought to include some close range, no sights, point and shoot exercises. The key was not fast draw or even concentrating on speed at all, it was about concentrating on the target and smoothly drawing and then squeezing the trigger.

I bought into the state of Texas fininding and I bough into isoceles even though it doesn't look or feel as cool as the weaver.

I also taught my wife to shoot this way. She was having some confidence problems. The weekend before the test, I gave her my government .45 and had her practice. The instructor was absolutely the best and had all of the women firing as a group. (There were a lot of women in the class.) They had a chance to chat before the shooting started and she found out all the other women were shooting 9mm semi-autos. She got the opertunity to dry fire some of the guns which were either double action or double action only. She then let the other women see what she was shooting. I almost laughed when there were lots of ooh's and aah's and they all pulled in closer. (The gun is a rather well finished, 1990's, SS Colt with a flat top, bead blasted finish with a brushed finished sides on the receiver. I've always thought it looks like the prefered weapon of an LA detective from the year 2100. While I definetly think my Kimber is better made, no Kimber matches the simple good looks and finish of that gun) Evidently, no one had showed them a 1911 before or at least not a SS one. Then they started pulling the trigger. I swear there were several squeels. She showed them the ammunition and I think there was bullet envy.

Anyway, all of this seemed to dissolve the confidence problem and she really started shooting well. After the second round the instructor told her she should consider competition. ( He knew that she hadn't been shooting that long, but was impressed by watching her.) It was sure a joy to hear the nice heavy blast of the .45 against the little cracks of the 9 mm. Towards the end, I was getting concerned because she had pretty much shot the center of the target out and I was afraid that she would get credit for many of her shots. (FMJ, .45's really tear paper up.)

The point of all this is there is nothing wrong with isoceles, unless you are Tom Cruise.

Link Posted: 3/30/2006 5:16:01 PM EDT
I jus point my glock fo-tay at tem an pop pop die biatch!
Link Posted: 3/30/2006 5:20:00 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Spade:
I use the right arm straight, left arm tucked and bent a bit like HoustonHusker said.

Never really paid much attention to my feet. I figure upper body position is more important.


One thing you should try to incorporate is the ability to move effectively as well.
Link Posted: 3/30/2006 5:21:15 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Mute:
Use whatever works best for you.


That is usually best. I've used many different styles over the years and seem to feel the modified isoceles works pretty well too.
Link Posted: 3/30/2006 6:47:19 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/30/2006 6:48:03 PM EDT by steady]
Try both and see what works best for you. I tend to have better control on my lighter guns in a Weaver. Heavier guns, I can do well in Isoc. Get your best stance down and practice it alot.

Link Posted: 3/30/2006 6:55:16 PM EDT
For me it almost depends on the handgun I am using. I guess I have my own style. It works for me.
Link Posted: 3/30/2006 7:00:16 PM EDT
I thought it was prone though a window at a woman holding a baby

oh you mean Jack Weaver my bad
Link Posted: 3/30/2006 7:12:52 PM EDT
tag
Link Posted: 3/30/2006 7:15:12 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Burkey:
I jus point my glock fo-tay at tem an pop pop die biatch!



That a way.
Link Posted: 3/30/2006 7:20:37 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Derek45:

words

The left arm should be more straight than the right arm, which is probably the opposite that you've been told. (If your shoulders are relaxed, not hunched up, and you are standing square to the target, your left hand has to be further out than the right hand.),

words




I tried this out.

I've now changed how I hold a handgun. What you posted works way better.
Link Posted: 3/30/2006 7:26:57 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/30/2006 7:28:01 PM EDT by Derek45]

Originally Posted By Spade:

Originally Posted By Derek45:

words

The left arm should be more straight than the right arm, which is probably the opposite that you've been told. (If your shoulders are relaxed, not hunched up, and you are standing square to the target, your left hand has to be further out than the right hand.),

words




I tried this out.

I've now changed how I hold a handgun. What you posted works way better.



What I posted was cut & pasted from Matt burkett's website.

It's what the best pistol shooters in the world are doing.

You can get Burkett's DVD's, or better yet, call him and see if You can take his two day class.

If you really want to learn how to master shooting a pistol fast and accurately, it's worth it !

www.mattburkett.com/
Link Posted: 3/30/2006 7:31:54 PM EDT
I shot Weaver originally, but I moved to Isoceles and my groups shunk by about 50%. I recommend Surgical Speed Shooting by Andy Stanford. Its a really good guide focusing on all aspects of the Isoceles stance.
Link Posted: 3/30/2006 7:32:43 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Mute:
Use whatever works best for you.



+1

keep it natural and simple
Link Posted: 3/30/2006 7:41:42 PM EDT
I've been working on an Angie Dickinson "Police Woman" stance.

(not really... just tagging)
Link Posted: 3/30/2006 8:02:38 PM EDT
good thread, actually has some usefull gun stuff

Ive always sucked with pistols, I think grip and stance is why.
Link Posted: 3/30/2006 8:09:57 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/30/2006 8:10:39 PM EDT by WildBoar]
Raise your hands. How many here just now whipped out their pistol and double checked their stance because of this thread ?
Link Posted: 3/30/2006 8:21:32 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Burkey:
I jus point my glock fo-tay at tem an pop pop die biatch!




Link Posted: 3/31/2006 1:21:07 AM EDT
There's shooting at the range - calm, controlled, with time on your side - and there's shooting to save your life. Which stance is more likely for you in each of those two conditions? Which do you think is more important to practice? One or the other, or not either but both? In my opinion, Weaver is a gun range, static shooting stance. Isosceles is more fluid and open minded. Try crouching and shooting Weaver.

GL
Link Posted: 3/31/2006 6:51:45 AM EDT
Stand like you're going to punch someone when stationary. If you need to move, the weaver/mod weaver is a heck of a lot more stationary and "natural" than that ding ding isoceles stance to move out from.

My advice: be able to move. Stationary targets are MUCH easier to hit than moving targets. Work on shooting while firing just as much as you do shooting while stationary. I bet I have fired more rounds while moving than stationary in the past 6 years (with my Sig226, anyways).

But... studies show that shooters will "default" to the isoceles stance instead of the weaver/mod weaver when in a SHTF situation. *shrugs* I was told that by a firearms instructor who had just got back from a FBI training course.
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