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Posted: 3/28/2006 5:08:53 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/28/2006 5:11:33 AM EDT by Mr45auto]
Anybody have inside knowledge on the two helos? I was just curious if it were a Pave Low in Somalia would the incident have been the same?



As I understand it the pave low is fairly well armored and armed as well as being able to carry more troops. It would seem to make sense for the Army to use this chopper in the hotspots.

I'm sure there's a reason ( other than just $$) that the blackhawk is the preferred army helo.

I see the pave low runs $40 million bux vs the blackhawk $10 million but with the cost of a B2 you could buy an awful lot of pave low choppers.
Link Posted: 3/28/2006 5:10:46 AM EDT
Different helicopters with different missions. You hear more about blackhawks going down because their mission gets them much closer to the shit. When you're hovering over a building filled with no-goodniks with guns and RPG's, your helo tends to get beat up. If you beat up on a 53 like that, it'd go down too.
Link Posted: 3/28/2006 8:22:47 AM EDT
With 3 guns firing instead of just one I'd think it could suppress the RPGs anyhow.
Link Posted: 3/28/2006 8:36:44 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/28/2006 8:38:23 AM EDT by QUIB]
Regardless of how well the aircraft is armored shit happens. Armor in helicopters is designed to protect the crew and not the aircraft it self, with the exception of a few instances I’ve seen in my 21+ years in aviation maintenance. And those two instances are the Apache with armor protection running the length of the tail boom for hyd lines, and the OH-58 with armor plates to protect the compressor.

There are features such as self sealing fuel bladders, but it’s simply impossible to completely armor each vulnerable spot in the aircraft, especially when it comes to flight controls.

Quib
Former Army Crew Chief
A&P Mechanic
Link Posted: 3/28/2006 9:29:11 AM EDT
An RPG to the tail rotor would bring a CH-53 down just as fast as a UH-60. Thats the vulnerable portion of every helicopter(thats where you aim in the next revolution;)).
Link Posted: 3/28/2006 1:42:48 PM EDT
I worked on the Pavelow (MH-53J) from 1988-1993. I was in Desert Shield/Desert Storm with them. While robust, it will not survive a RPG to the tail rotor or to the main rotor hub. It can take some small arms fire but once again, depends on what is hit.

There is a reason that the AF Spec Ops community likes flying low and fast at night. In a hover you are very vulnerable, even with a mix of .50BMG and 7.62x51 miniguns on-board.
Link Posted: 3/28/2006 3:13:05 PM EDT
No helo has armor that will do squat against an RPG
Link Posted: 3/28/2006 3:15:01 PM EDT
A 53 there that day never would have happened.

Never.

Lot more than money involved in NOT using a 53.

Link Posted: 3/28/2006 3:36:04 PM EDT
AF has a pretty limited number of MH-53's, they are not a asset that you can just dial up and order. The raid in question was one that was on again off again for days at a time, hard to justfy tying up a deep pentration bird like the MH on this.
And given the nature of the insertion in Somalia it would have been a much bigger target. An RPG to the tail rotor and you're going down. I don't think there is anything flying including the A-10 that has enough armor to stop a standard RPG round.

just my 3 pesos

MB
Link Posted: 3/28/2006 3:42:07 PM EDT

Originally Posted By MrBear80229:
AF has a pretty limited number of MH-53's, they are not a asset that you can just dial up and order. The raid in question was one that was on again off again for days at a time, hard to justfy tying up a deep pentration bird like the MH on this.
And given the nature of the insertion in Somalia it would have been a much bigger target. An RPG to the tail rotor and you're going down. I don't think there is anything flying including the A-10 that has enough armor to stop a standard RPG round.

just my 3 pesos

MB



Especially when you consider that M1A2's are being taken out by RPGs as well. Many people think that an RPG is a regular hand grenade with a rocket on the end. They have no idea that its designed to penetrate tank armor (the HEAT warheads anyway; there are anti-personnel warheads also).
Link Posted: 3/28/2006 3:59:02 PM EDT
This may be a dumb question, can you fit a RPG guard on the tail boom like they're putting on armor?
Link Posted: 3/28/2006 5:48:17 PM EDT
Are you talking the slat armor that is being put on the Strykers? That stuff weighs a couple tons. Your're talking adding at least a few hundred pounds to the very rear of one. It could take the weight, but at a reduced load capacity, and since it would be at the rear, it would throw the balance off. Also more importantly, even if it did stop the round, the fragments would still damage the rotors, as those aren't made from armor.
Link Posted: 3/28/2006 6:38:25 PM EDT

Originally Posted By DVCAPI:
This may be a dumb question, can you fit a RPG guard on the tail boom like they're putting on armor?



Totally out of the question. You not only add weight that affects the weight and balance of the aircraft, but you affect the flight characteristics of the aircraft.
Link Posted: 3/28/2006 6:41:22 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Mr45auto:
With 3 guns firing instead of just one I'd think it could suppress the RPGs anyhow.



So what if there are 4 bad guys with RPG's? Duh.
Link Posted: 3/28/2006 6:43:33 PM EDT
Helicopters are not really flying, they are beating the air into submission. It's hard to keep them up and easy to bring them down.

Nature of the beast.
Link Posted: 3/28/2006 6:44:48 PM EDT

Originally Posted By MrBear80229:
I don't think there is anything flying including the A-10 that has enough armor to stop a standard RPG round.

just my 3 pesos

MB



Well I'm no expert, but I've seen pictures of A-10's with a tail shot off or hald a wing gone that have made it back. I think that there were a couple a in Desert Storm that got shot up pretty bad and got home. The A-10 is a pretty tough machine.
Link Posted: 3/28/2006 7:11:51 PM EDT

Originally Posted By KA3B:

Originally Posted By Mr45auto:
With 3 guns firing instead of just one I'd think it could suppress the RPGs anyhow.



So what if there are 4 bad guys with RPG's? Duh.



Uhh shoot them.... duh.
Link Posted: 3/28/2006 7:15:07 PM EDT

Originally Posted By motown_steve:

Originally Posted By MrBear80229:
I don't think there is anything flying including the A-10 that has enough armor to stop a standard RPG round.

just my 3 pesos

MB



Well I'm no expert, but I've seen pictures of A-10's with a tail shot off or hald a wing gone that have made it back. I think that there were a couple a in Desert Storm that got shot up pretty bad and got home. The A-10 is a pretty tough machine.



The A-10 from Desert Storm you're referring to had a hole blown in it's wing by a SAM and still made it back. I'd imagine it would shrug off an RPG hit pretty easilly.
Link Posted: 3/28/2006 7:19:05 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Mr45auto:

Originally Posted By KA3B:

Originally Posted By Mr45auto:
With 3 guns firing instead of just one I'd think it could suppress the RPGs anyhow.



So what if there are 4 bad guys with RPG's? Duh.



Uhh shoot them.... duh.



Did you flunk math in third grade?

If Johnny is leading a four man helo strike mission and has four RPG's and sets up his ambush for the helo in four seperate spots and the helo only has three defensive gun mounts what are the odds that one of the four RPG's operators will be able to complete their mission?

Anyone? Anyone? Buhler? Buhler?
Link Posted: 3/28/2006 7:26:26 PM EDT
No I didnt, you posted a smartass comment and I responded with one.


Lighten up Francis.
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