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Posted: 3/27/2006 10:38:15 AM EDT
ok hive mind,

My friend says to making a shady shooting really legit a throw piece could be used, example you encounter a intruder on your property but no weapon visiable, you shoot then drop a piece nearby.


my argument is first off most guns can be tracked even if the serial number is altered.

Second, the weapon wont have the badguys prints on it.

3rd they can usually tell if the guy was dead before the weapon was in his hand...

or maybe the detectives aren't as through as CSI
Link Posted: 3/27/2006 10:41:54 AM EDT
Flinging a throw-down will do only one thing to a questionable shoot - make it worse. Much worse.

Your friend's an idiot.
Link Posted: 3/27/2006 10:44:30 AM EDT

Originally Posted By 1911greg:
... example you encounter a intruder on your property but no weapon visiable, you shoot then drop a piece nearby.




And you've committed murder.

(Contrary to popular belief on some Arfcom threads, LEOs are not idiots.)

Link Posted: 3/27/2006 10:45:15 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/27/2006 10:47:40 AM EDT by wildearp]

Originally Posted By Bonk2029:
Flinging a throw-down will do only one thing to a questionable shoot - make it worse. Much worse.

Your friend's an idiot.



However, almost all guns made before the GCA of 1968 are not traceable, and many after. So, technically this is possible. A knife, bat, airsoft, bb gun, etc. could technically be used too. Of technical possibilities are without consideration of legal, moral, or ethical issues.

IBTL, just because.
Link Posted: 3/27/2006 10:46:34 AM EDT
that's what airsoft is for!
Link Posted: 3/27/2006 10:47:13 AM EDT

Originally Posted By 1911greg:
or maybe the detectives aren't as through as CSI



Here's the thing:

Most guns are purchased through FFLs, and thus there is paperwork on them.

The authorities CAN trace a weapon back to its original owner. So if you buy a gun in a FTF non-FFL deal, the authorities can STILL end up tracing the weapon to YOU.

And if they end up seeing that you just happened to recently aquire a weapon like the one the "bad" guy was found dead with, you can expect them to crawl up in your colon and make camp.
Link Posted: 3/27/2006 10:48:02 AM EDT
It is possible, but very unlikely.
Link Posted: 3/27/2006 10:49:30 AM EDT
And if it's found out you did it, he could have been ready to rape your wife with a kitchen knife and you're still gonna hang for it. If you were even close to meeting the requirements for shooting doing that is about as dumb as you can get.
Link Posted: 3/27/2006 10:50:00 AM EDT


Link Posted: 3/27/2006 10:53:22 AM EDT
Well a throw peice is something that you either found or somehow got it with out paper work leading anywhere near you, it's still possible and only in the right circumstances it could help or it could hinder. It's not legal and I'm not promoting the idea of useing a pistol or knife as one.
Link Posted: 3/27/2006 10:53:23 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/27/2006 10:53:39 AM EDT by ScaryBlackGuns]


Your "friend" apparently has an irrepressible desire to become Bubba's dick ornament.

SBG
Link Posted: 3/27/2006 10:53:48 AM EDT
I think I would save such a response for someone already inside the house.

In that case, I don't care if I can see a weapon or not. That guy is dead meat. I'm not taking a chance with someone who is already inside.
Link Posted: 3/27/2006 10:54:05 AM EDT
That will only work with a Glock.

(Drop guns? I bet that hasn't worked since the early 1990s if not earlier!)

FWIW don't shoot an intruder on your porch and drag him inside and claim he was in your living room when you shot him. Those LEOs are shmart fellers, they might pick up on the blood trail!
Link Posted: 3/27/2006 10:56:18 AM EDT
Link Posted: 3/27/2006 10:56:28 AM EDT
four words...

yard sale kitchen knife
Link Posted: 3/27/2006 10:57:22 AM EDT
I thought you were a troll before, but this is a brand new level of achievement for you. I'm stunned.
Link Posted: 3/27/2006 10:57:57 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Big_Bear:
I heard many cops carry throw-down pieces. Is this true?



No, but some do carry crack to sprinkle on dead black men.

SBG
Link Posted: 3/27/2006 10:59:37 AM EDT
If you're going to lie about it, why does it have to be a firearm? Just 'tro down' a block of wood, paperweight hand-grenade, or an electric can-opener and claim you thought it was an Uzi.
Link Posted: 3/27/2006 11:01:36 AM EDT
I think "SOME" cops have such an item.

I would NOT recommend your average citizen have one. Sure, you could go to a the hood and buy a peice out of the back of someones car... but I wouldnt. If they figure it out, you are going to jail. Even if it was a justified shooting, you tampered with evidence.

If you feel the urge, put the remote near him. "I thought it was a gun, but for some reason he picked up my TV remote. OOPS. I was afraid for my life! I thought he was going to kill me and rape my dog!"
Link Posted: 3/27/2006 11:01:46 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Crowcreek:
If you're going to lie about it, why does it have to be a firearm? Just 'tro down' a block of wood, paperweight hand-grenade, or an electric can-opener and claim you thought it was an Uzi.



And any DA worth his salt is going to bore you a new ass channel for not properly identifying your target before shooting.
Link Posted: 3/27/2006 11:07:59 AM EDT
If the shooting is justified and righteous, then a throw-down becomes pointless.

Like O_P says: It's murder if it's not justified.

HH
Link Posted: 3/27/2006 11:17:10 AM EDT

Originally Posted By 1911greg:
ok hive mind,

My friend says to making a shady shooting really legit a throw piece could be used, example you encounter a intruder on your property but no weapon visiable, you shoot then drop a piece nearby. call 911



Call 911 like this guy did:

There's a link to the 911 recording on the page, too.

www.kirotv.com/news/8157594/detail.html
Link Posted: 3/27/2006 11:17:18 AM EDT
Link Posted: 3/27/2006 11:17:22 AM EDT

Originally Posted By roboman:

Originally Posted By Crowcreek:
If you're going to lie about it, why does it have to be a firearm? Just 'tro down' a block of wood, paperweight hand-grenade, or an electric can-opener and claim you thought it was an Uzi.



And any DA worth his salt is going to bore you a new ass channel for not properly identifying your target before shooting.



If a man's in my house with a block of wood, a heavy rock, or a brick, I did ID my target and I hit it just fine. No need to claim I thought it was an Uzi. Come to think of it if he's creeping around inside my house at all, it'd be hard to get a situation where I'd be charged.
Link Posted: 3/27/2006 11:20:15 AM EDT

Originally Posted By npd233:

Originally Posted By 1911greg:
ok hive mind,

My friend says to making a shady shooting really legit a throw piece could be used, example you encounter a intruder on your property but no weapon visiable, you shoot then drop a piece nearby. call 911



Call 911 like this guy did:

There's a link to the 911 recording on the page, too.

www.kirotv.com/news/8157594/detail.html



- it does sound about the same doesn't it?
Link Posted: 3/27/2006 11:52:29 AM EDT
Think of this:

You have only minutes, maybe seconds, to plant a throw-down piece.

The investigation team has weeks, months, or maybe even years to find enough evidence to implicate you.

I am sure people have gotten away with planting throw-downs, but I would submit that they are in the great minority. Your best bet would be to hope the investigators never have a reason to look closely, which means the shoot had better be good to begin with.
Link Posted: 3/27/2006 12:25:28 PM EDT

Originally Posted By npd233:

Originally Posted By 1911greg:
ok hive mind,

My friend says to making a shady shooting really legit a throw piece could be used, example you encounter a intruder on your property but no weapon visiable, you shoot then drop a piece nearby. call 911



Call 911 like this guy did:

There's a link to the 911 recording on the page, too.

www.kirotv.com/news/8157594/detail.html

I bet you he beats it if he has documentation, problem is the cops are too lazy to file a report. I hadda problem with a neighbor who threatened me I file a report at the precint, I hadda run in again with this dirtbag and call the cops again, the two cops spent an hour with this guy at home and then when they saw me they told me that if "I CALL 911 AGAIN, I AM GOING IN". What the FUCK? This cop made me feel like shit throwing me under the bus. So I said let me do a little investigating, guess what this guy had 2 priors, was still on probation for assault w/ deadly weapon w/intent to kill, so I go back to the police precint to show the beat sergeant, says he can't help me, I give him the paperwork, still says he can't do anything, but his tone is less harsh. I "just happen" to run into the cops who came for the incident while going to the supermarket, I told them about the dirtbag's 2 priors, but i am sure they had already heard about it from the beat sergaent. A small world?
Link Posted: 3/27/2006 12:28:26 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Old_Painless:


(Contrary to popular belief on some Arfcom threads, LEOs are not idiots.)





I wouldn't go so far as to say that. I would say that most people who commit crimes are just WAYYYYYY stupider than the average LEO.

Like, for instance, someone who is planning what to do if they make a "shady shoot".
Link Posted: 3/27/2006 12:30:13 PM EDT
By "on your property" I assume you mean not in the house. If the intruder is inside my house, he's getting shot whether or not he has a visable weapon. I have no interest in getting into a quick draw contest in my own home.
Link Posted: 3/27/2006 12:44:29 PM EDT
The prints and GSR could be faked fairly easily, but I wouldn't reccomend it.
Link Posted: 3/27/2006 12:44:55 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Old_Painless:

Originally Posted By 1911greg:
... example you encounter a intruder on your property but no weapon visiable, you shoot then drop a piece nearby.




And you've committed murder.

(Contrary to popular belief on some Arfcom threads, LEOs are not idiots.)




Well, some of them aren't

(Sort of like society in general)

But I agree, even if the law permits the use of deadly force when no weapon is present (as it does in Oregon), using such force unless there is no alternative is really murder -- moraly if not legally.

Some of the things you would need to consider to stand *any* chance of getting away with it:

* Are your fingerprints on the gun ANYWHERE? (Including on the cartridges, the magazine or cylinder .. anywhere at all ? Even a fragmentary print?).

* Are the victims prints on the gun? Not just one nice clean set when you shove it in his hand, but on the cartridges (did he really use gloves to load his gun?), the magazine, elsewhere?

* Is there any trace of your DNA on the gun? Wiping will smear prints away, but the sweat and skin cells just get moved around -- your DNA will be on there -- WHY?? Is the victim's DNA there, where it should be?

* Is the dust trapped in various nooks and crevices indicative of your house? or the victims?

* Did you aquire the gun legally? then it better be through a LONG line of private trades where most of the sellers died of old age.

* Is the oil on the gun also present inside the victim's pocket where ke supposedly kept the gun?

* Probably a million other things ...

The LAST thing I would do would be to use this tactic. It makes what might otherwise be take as a justified self defense, or at worst manslaughter start to look a lot like something a lot more serious.
Link Posted: 3/27/2006 12:51:51 PM EDT
An immoral person who wanted to commit such an illegal act would be better off using a "throw knife." No powder residue, internal prints, bullet trajectory, or serial numbers to trace.
Link Posted: 3/27/2006 1:15:40 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/27/2006 3:25:00 PM EDT by Sukebe]
Three words;

D N A

His better be on it. Your's better not. Hardly any crime labs in the country bother finger printing firearms anymore. History shows a success rate of about 0% when trying to lift prints from a firearm, no matter what method is tried. Nearly all will test for DNA. Success rate is very high. Nearly 100% if the gun is recovered and preserved quickly.
Link Posted: 3/27/2006 1:19:20 PM EDT

Originally Posted By cobra-ak:

Originally Posted By npd233:

Originally Posted By 1911greg:
ok hive mind,

My friend says to making a shady shooting really legit a throw piece could be used, example you encounter a intruder on your property but no weapon visiable, you shoot then drop a piece nearby. call 911



Call 911 like this guy did:

There's a link to the 911 recording on the page, too.

www.kirotv.com/news/8157594/detail.html

I bet you he beats it if he has documentation, problem is the cops are too lazy to file a report. I hadda problem with a neighbor who threatened me I file a report at the precint, I hadda run in again with this dirtbag and call the cops again, the two cops spent an hour with this guy at home and then when they saw me they told me that if "I CALL 911 AGAIN, I AM GOING IN". What the FUCK? This cop made me feel like shit throwing me under the bus. So I said let me do a little investigating, guess what this guy had 2 priors, was still on probation for assault w/ deadly weapon w/intent to kill, so I go back to the police precint to show the beat sergeant, says he can't help me, I give him the paperwork, still says he can't do anything, but his tone is less harsh. I "just happen" to run into the cops who came for the incident while going to the supermarket, I told them about the dirtbag's 2 priors, but i am sure they had already heard about it from the beat sergaent. A small world?



He ain't beating that charge. He'll spend the rest of his life in prison. Shot a 15 year old boy for walking on his lawn. Read the article before jumping to conclusions.
Link Posted: 3/27/2006 1:32:15 PM EDT

Originally Posted By ken_mays:
Think of this:

You have only minutes, maybe seconds, to plant a throw-down piece.

The investigation team has weeks, months, or maybe even years to find enough evidence to implicate you.

I am sure people have gotten away with planting throw-downs, but I would submit that they are in the great minority. Your best bet would be to hope the investigators never have a reason to look closely, which means the shoot had better be good to begin with.




It only works if the guy throwing down the piece is being investigated by his co-workers.
Link Posted: 3/27/2006 1:35:18 PM EDT
that's why you should never shoot until there is no question at all
Link Posted: 3/27/2006 2:01:07 PM EDT

Originally Posted By npd233:

Originally Posted By cobra-ak:

Originally Posted By npd233:

Originally Posted By 1911greg:
ok hive mind,

My friend says to making a shady shooting really legit a throw piece could be used, example you encounter a intruder on your property but no weapon visiable, you shoot then drop a piece nearby. call 911



Call 911 like this guy did:

There's a link to the 911 recording on the page, too.

www.kirotv.com/news/8157594/detail.html

I bet you he beats it if he has documentation, problem is the cops are too lazy to file a report. I hadda problem with a neighbor who threatened me I file a report at the precint, I hadda run in again with this dirtbag and call the cops again, the two cops spent an hour with this guy at home and then when they saw me they told me that if "I CALL 911 AGAIN, I AM GOING IN". What the FUCK? This cop made me feel like shit throwing me under the bus. So I said let me do a little investigating, guess what this guy had 2 priors, was still on probation for assault w/ deadly weapon w/intent to kill, so I go back to the police precint to show the beat sergeant, says he can't help me, I give him the paperwork, still says he can't do anything, but his tone is less harsh. I "just happen" to run into the cops who came for the incident while going to the supermarket, I told them about the dirtbag's 2 priors, but i am sure they had already heard about it from the beat sergaent. A small world?



He ain't beating that charge. He'll spend the rest of his life in prison. Shot a 15 year old boy for walking on his lawn. Read the article before jumping to conclusions.



No shit, I don't care what that boy did to him he's going to prison because he murdered him. I vote to send him and be happy I did.
Link Posted: 3/27/2006 2:18:11 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Big_Bear:
I heard many cops carry throw-down pieces. Is this true?


Most carry knives.
Link Posted: 3/27/2006 2:28:43 PM EDT
After reading PhilipPeakes' reply, I'd say you're better off with

SSS.

Link Posted: 3/27/2006 2:39:30 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/27/2006 2:39:50 PM EDT by brassburn]
It's been said before, but I can't resist.

Your friend is a dumbass.
Link Posted: 3/27/2006 2:45:15 PM EDT

BTRN Principle #46

People will forgive mistakes, but they will crucify you for a cover-up.
Link Posted: 3/27/2006 2:58:09 PM EDT

Originally Posted By 1911greg:
My friend says to making a shady shooting really legit a throw piece could be used, example you encounter a intruder on your property but no weapon visiable, you shoot then drop a piece nearby.



I think its foolish to even consider this behavior. If the shootings legit, its legit. No need to go planting evidence, which is whats being "theoretically" discussed. If the shootings "shady", maybe you should have taken the time you used to scrounge up a drop piece to study the laws regarding the lawful use of deadly physical force.
Link Posted: 3/27/2006 2:59:03 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Big_Bear:
I heard many cops carry throw-down pieces. Is this true?



I don't know how many... if it's a lot or a little... but the answer is that there are some that do, although these days it's in the form of a knife - your typical 'gun show' knife is nearly impossible to trace. Also, as another person pointed out... it doesn't hurt for them to have a 'stash' of drugs for similar use. Flashlights come in handy for hiding/storing these kind of things until they are 'needed'. Sad but true.
Link Posted: 3/27/2006 3:08:15 PM EDT
Stupidity is the only thing that comes to mind.
Link Posted: 3/28/2006 12:48:38 PM EDT

Originally Posted By npd233:

Originally Posted By cobra-ak:

Originally Posted By npd233:

Originally Posted By 1911greg:
ok hive mind,

My friend says to making a shady shooting really legit a throw piece could be used, example you encounter a intruder on your property but no weapon visiable, you shoot then drop a piece nearby. call 911



Call 911 like this guy did:

There's a link to the 911 recording on the page, too.

www.kirotv.com/news/8157594/detail.html

I bet you he beats it if he has documentation, problem is the cops are too lazy to file a report. I hadda problem with a neighbor who threatened me I file a report at the precint, I hadda run in again with this dirtbag and call the cops again, the two cops spent an hour with this guy at home and then when they saw me they told me that if "I CALL 911 AGAIN, I AM GOING IN". What the FUCK? This cop made me feel like shit throwing me under the bus. So I said let me do a little investigating, guess what this guy had 2 priors, was still on probation for assault w/ deadly weapon w/intent to kill, so I go back to the police precint to show the beat sergeant, says he can't help me, I give him the paperwork, still says he can't do anything, but his tone is less harsh. I "just happen" to run into the cops who came for the incident while going to the supermarket, I told them about the dirtbag's 2 priors, but i am sure they had already heard about it from the beat sergaent. A small world?



He ain't beating that charge. He'll spend the rest of his life in prison. Shot a 15 year old boy for walking on his lawn. Read the article before jumping to conclusions.

killing someone is wrong! but everyone has a limit a snapping point, if he had been harrassed for 5 years and called the police throughout those 5 years and the police did nothing about it, he has a case, its his property after all.
Link Posted: 3/28/2006 12:56:07 PM EDT

Originally Posted By cobra-ak:
killing someone is wrong! but everyone has a limit a snapping point, if he had been harrassed for 5 years and called the police throughout those 5 years and the police did nothing about it, he has a case, its his property after all.



No, he doesn't.

You cannot kill someone for walking on your lawn.

If you do, it is murder.
Link Posted: 3/28/2006 1:00:09 PM EDT
That's what I like about this place, Someone always likes to set the "stupidity" bar higher that anyone else.
Link Posted: 3/28/2006 1:01:23 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Johninaustin:
That's what I like about this place, Someone always likes to set the "stupidity" bar higher that anyone else.



Is there no limit?
Link Posted: 3/28/2006 1:03:45 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Old_Painless:

Originally Posted By cobra-ak:
killing someone is wrong! but everyone has a limit a snapping point, if he had been harrassed for 5 years and called the police throughout those 5 years and the police did nothing about it, he has a case, its his property after all.



No, he doesn't.

You cannot kill someone for walking on your lawn.

If you do, it is murder.

I only heard the guy was harrassed for 5 years, I am sure that this guy snapped, like I said killing is wrong. You have to hear this guys version you were not there and neither was I but he will have his day in court. I t is possible that the kid was doing more than walking across his lawn.
Link Posted: 3/28/2006 1:06:02 PM EDT
Public discussion of this seems a little crazy...putting it nicely as possible.
Link Posted: 3/28/2006 1:06:38 PM EDT

Originally Posted By cobra-ak:
So I said let me do a little investigating, guess what this guy had 2 priors, was still on probation for assault w/ deadly weapon w/intent to kill, so I go back to the police precint to show the beat sergeant, says he can't help me, I give him the paperwork, still says he can't do anything, but his tone is less harsh. I "just happen" to run into the cops who came for the incident while going to the supermarket, I told them about the dirtbag's 2 priors, but i am sure they had already heard about it from the beat sergaent. A small world?



The way you deal with that is go to the guys PO and let them put the screws to him. In my state your complaint would be simple harassment, but its only a violation ( sort of between a traffic ticket and a misdemeanor). Violating his probation due to his behavior would hurt him more.
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